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On May 24 2016 19:44 Kreb wrote:
Ok, here goes. I tried to distiguish my comments between strong opinions and details.
[...]
I agree with pretty much all of this. You listed a lot of things I had no idea were even in the guides, like necro Nyx and aether over force SK. Those need to go.
A couple specific things:
Abaddon
Im a pretty big non-believer of drums/sny (radiance all the way baby) on him, but I realize people play him like that so I'll leave that part.
But i will say that Echo Saber seems extremely out of place. Even as core/semicore, your right clicks are rather pathetic. You kill by chasing people down slowly with CoA and maybe other slows. For that purpose, Echo Saber does nothing. Saber is primarily good on hard hitters (Sven, Tiny...) or heroes with crits/bashes. Aba is none of these. I wouldnt even put it in situational items, its garbage to me. Theres plenty of better choices.
We should not be building a carry abbadon at all, imo. I did not realise that was there. The hero is a support. If we really must have a carrybaddon build we should make a new guide for it.
Even then, carrybaddon shouldn't have echo sabre, I agree. Echo is overused in these guides in general.
Drow
Shadow blade as core, I really dont think so. I realize games are different at lower levels (but with that reasoning shadow blade could be core on half the heroes) but its really not a great item on her. It doesnt boost her farming and she isnt a great ganker. And the hero is by far the best when played as early grouping and pushing, which shadow blade contributes nothing to. In my book its situational as best, and only really if you upgrade to silver edge for the stats.
Also, 99% drows probably maxes aura first. Its really superior for just about everything.
Strongly agree with removing shadowblade, but we've had this argument several times before on many heroes and I rarely win.
Aura first comes up a lot. Maybe it's time to make the change.
My personal rationale for arrows is basically that arrows are useful even when it would have been better to max aura, while maxing aura on a 4 melee team is a complete waste. That's less and less compelling as aura becomes more and more standard, though.
These days Drow is pretty much only picked in aura cheese lineups, and I guess at some point that has to filter through.
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and Kunkka?
Let me take a look at feedback now
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I'm getting the error bug thing atm, but core kunkka is probably fine going something like WQWEW and maxing W>E>Q.
There's an argument for E max here as well, but imo tidebringer is just too abusive in lane when people are bad at dodging it.
Support kunkka should max E, going QEEQE.
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On May 25 2016 06:14 Sn0_Man wrote:
Can you explain the reasoning behind a 2nd point in blink strike at level 8?
the only change is 3 seconds of cooldown (14->11) which while cute, is worth substantially more at higher levels (aka 14->11 and 8->5 are both 3 second reductions but 8->5 virtually halves the colldown whereas 14->11 is like 25% reduction).
Basically, if you want blink strike 2 at 8, then you want blink strike 3 and 4 at 9 and 10. If you don't want 4-4-1, then you clearly want 4-1-4. Also note that while the first point in blur is the most value (20%), of the next points the 4th is the most efficient and as such 4-2-3 is horribly inefficient to lock yourself into over the long level 10-12 xp distance.
items are weird on that hero i've seen much better people than me advocating bfury into deso saying lifesteal doesn't do a lot for the hero but i'm not feeling it. I dont' have a good suggestion though.
A possible item build would be phase aquila vanguard into probably sny or deso into abyssal but that's pure theory
that doesn't really synergize with her dagger now being an insane nuke if you build damage these days but I don't have a solid build plan either way because I haven't seen good PA play recently.
 Second point in Blink is because it is what I'm seeing in public and pro matches (otherwise, they max Blur). I'm assuming because the lower cooldown is appreciated, but the maxed version of it might be too mana-costly.
Long-Level XP from 10-12 is now more at 8-9:
Patch notes 6.87: Experience required to get to level 8 and 9 rescaled from 600/1200 to 800/1000
I see a lot of Armlet into Deso builds for PA. Thought that was worth considering.
On May 24 2016 19:44 Kreb wrote:Ok, here goes. I tried to distiguish my comments between strong opinions and details. Strong opinions Abaddon + Show Spoiler +
Im a pretty big non-believer of drums/sny (radiance all the way baby) on him, but I realize people play him like that so I'll leave that part.
But i will say that Echo Saber seems extremely out of place. Even as core/semicore, your right clicks are rather pathetic. You kill by chasing people down slowly with CoA and maybe other slows. For that purpose, Echo Saber does nothing. Saber is primarily good on hard hitters (Sven, Tiny...) or heroes with crits/bashes. Aba is none of these. I wouldnt even put it in situational items, its garbage to me. Theres plenty of better choices.
Drow + Show Spoiler +
Shadow blade as core, I really dont think so. I realize games are different at lower levels (but with that reasoning shadow blade could be core on half the heroes) but its really not a great item on her. It doesnt boost her farming and she isnt a great ganker. And the hero is by far the best when played as early grouping and pushing, which shadow blade contributes nothing to. In my book its situational as best, and only really if you upgrade to silver edge for the stats.
Also, 99% drows probably maxes aura first. Its really superior for just about everything.
Huskar + Show Spoiler +
I definitely think you want a point in heal before lvl 10. Most commonly at lvl 4. Its a free salve during laning. Its a free salve after any skirmishes. And you dont use mana for anything else. Even after a gank where the target didnt fights back and just tried to run you'll be low due to spears + life break. Oh and it enables some fairly good low-hp-jungling possibilities early on if you want/need to farm jungle. Too much good to pass on.
Luna + Show Spoiler +
Agh should definitely be somewhere. Given that the hero isnt played its hard to say how good it is (personally I feel it might be core). But to play it safe I guess putting it as situational is better. But its definitely good enough to be among mentioned items.
Spirit Breaker + Show Spoiler +
BKB is as core as it can be on a hero. You can stop by for blade mail/vlad/shadow blade/whatever (preferably not more than 1 out of these though) before but you really really need BKB at some point. The earlier the better.
Details. Abaddon + Show Spoiler +
The new curse became much more of a "one point wonder". As sup you should always max coil over it. And imo you max coil over it as core too (thats up for discussion, I know, some would disagree). But the general build for new players should be coil over curse, its better in more cases.
Bounty + Show Spoiler +
I feel Lotus Orb should be somewhere. As situational I guess?
Centaur + Show Spoiler +
I feel you want Return at lvl 1 or 2 (1-0-1 at lvl 2). Its a great "dont harass me" skill against supports.
CK + Show Spoiler +
Butterfly is a great extension item. Yes hes a str-hero, but bfly gives him everything he wants as an illusion carry. Far superior to halberd as evasion item unless theres a very specific halberd target you're looking to counter. And even then maybe superior.
I also still think the normal (and imo better) build is to not put a point in crit until lvl 9/10 something.
Doom + Show Spoiler +
Rename jungle to Roam? He really does a lot more just devouring creep in the jungle and then roaming.
Drow + Show Spoiler +
There is the Agh+Mjollnir build which should be considered extension. Though pretty much only together with each other.
Necro + Show Spoiler +
Maybe nitpicking (Necro is super flexible with his items, you could almost build anything) but veil is a legit early game item and heart could be an extension item too.
Night stalker + Show Spoiler +
At this point im pretty sure gem could be considered core. Theres not a better carrier for it.
Nyx + Show Spoiler +
Im not really sure what Necro book does on situational here. Theres no synergy between him as a hero and the item. Necro are mostly build on aura carriers and/or pushers, which is quite far from what nyx is.
Sand King + Show Spoiler +
I wouldnt put Agh or Aether as core over force. The general build prefers force over both, and imo its the better choice too. At least Aether and Force should switch places. Agh is also kinda situational to me but whatever thats nitpicking. Force as core is a 100% though to me.
Tide + Show Spoiler +
Im pretty sure the mek (eventually greaves) build should be considered core atm.
WK + Show Spoiler +
Midas should probably be there (as situational i guess?). WK really wants to reach lvl 11/16 and he uses the atsp well.
Radiance should probably be there as situational too. Its pretty common and definitely legit.
Echo Sabre gives a lot of stats that Abaddon wants at a minimal cost. It is a better fighting tool than Sange & Yasha which was its original carry build.
I relied on this as reference: http://www.dotabuff.com/players/13580095/matches?hero=abaddon
The alternative is more Vanguard into Sange & Yasha.
I think I received the stats skill build suggestion almost as much as Medusa suggestions. I prefer it because I am just farming as Drow Ranger anyways, but there is a lot of pushback on it and I can't make a distinction on which build is ideal. Since Frost Arrows maxed, Shadow Blade is obtained for positioning and escape, not necessary to gank (though Shadow Blade into Gust is strong). 22 Damage and attack speed seems like a decent item to get for someone who gets caught out as Drow Ranger
 Ok
 I'd rather avoid adding items that don't contribute to her main role as a hard-carry. Aghanim's is a nice 'cherry-on-top' but ultimately, there may be better items that take priority over that for Luna players. How do you feel about Hurricane Pike/Dragon Lance (Extension/Situational Items)
I am not seeing Black King Bar as commonly bought as you claim for it to be core. I see a lot of Blade Mail and Armlet instead.
This guy's build interested me though: http://www.dotabuff.com/players/86966889/matches?hero=spirit-breaker. Are you sure it's Core? I think it is Core if we didn't have Shadow Blade
I actually saw a lot less maxing of Coil over Curse of the Avernus and I also felt when I played Abaddon, I ran out of mana extremely fast going for Coil and that sort of mana management can be tricky.
In Epicenter, there was an alternating used between both Curse and Coil: http://www.dotabuff.com/esports/leagues/4461?date=&hero=abaddon®ion=&duration=
Since I couldn't include two skill builds in one guide, I kept it to Curse maxed second.
There's no room, so you would have to suggest to remove something
Ok
Ok on Crit at 9 or 10. I prefer to add Eye of Skadi to Extension Items over Butterfly.
 I think he'll stay as Carry because the more aggressive version is not as comfortable for all players. Even I don't play him as roaming except past level 6 (or if there's an opportune moment)
We can only include one "end-game" build for Drow Ranger. We can create a new tab for those two items but risk confusing users
Will add Veil of Discord. I removed Heart of Tarrasque as it didn't serve a direct purpose to how I wanted Necrophos to be played.
For items that are shared by party or are consumables, I just stick in the Utility Items
I will remove
Are you sure? I see a lot of Aghanim or Aether Lens coupled with Blink Dagger, but not many Blink + Force without Aghs or Aether Lens.
 ok
I avoided Midas and Radiance in fear that too many users would be too inactive with Wraith King. I can add Midas to Situational Items
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Aghs and AL were pretty popular after the change to aghs and introduction to AL, later on they kinda fall off and people went to back to blink force first. Both are fine, i feel like Blink Force gives u more options but less stats where as Aghs or/and AL locks u into ulti/stun/sandstorm combo without escape (assuming u use stun aggressively to keep enemies under ur ulti.
Situational/Aggressive? boots should be phase or treads imo, what are u suppose to do with tranqs anyways (u are gonna get hit in the fights, thats ur role, also u dont need the regen for farming). Phase for lane dominance, treads for stats. If we add Veil into Core, we are locked to 5 items after the core items even without TP (Null Wand Arcs Mek Aghs Veil)
I dont know what this aggressive tab is, Blademail could be just situational and remove another boots, whats the idea behind it?
I was against the Necro Mek build earlier when we had discussion about this but cant remember why we kept the mek, but since we have it now, might as well keep it.
Drow really needs one mobility item and imo SB is safer here than Blink, Pike is interesting but comes much later, tho it has easier build up to compensate.
 Early lvl on return is great if u have no way killing enemies (1v3 lane or hard 1v2 lane), otherwise u might want to max out ur burst, double edge is really strong early but hard to use without killing urself in the process. I dont know whats the point on 2-2-1 over 1-3-1, u have literally no mana to use stun more than once and W scales better in terms of damage and has less than half the cooldown of stomp. Obviously Double Edge requires some sort of regen to compensate increased health loss but still i would say its better to go 1-4-1-1 over 2-3-1-1.
Pretty sure its the Tome that needs to be removed if we want to get more items in. Also Daedalus? rather MKB or Abyssal or something. Also the whole guide is confusing as fuck imo, i think we really need to look into going for one bounty build over other.
Aghs is pretty damn good but i get ur point, i agree we should stick on the normal right clicker until Luna gets played more and we see what pros build (most likely still right click and few aghs here and there in specific line ups).
I would add AC for the Extension, sometimes a lot better option and Butter if enemy team is all about physical and they have MKBs coming/ready and ur team lacks armor as well. Both Butter and AC is not unheard of either imo. Then there is the good old Glaive lvling discussion.
Offlane abas maxed R>W>E>Q, support abas R>W>Q>E in epicenter, if u dont take in account Bulba who does stupid shit all the time.Also non of the offlane abas where against proper trilane, always vs relatively weak dual lane or dual + passive jungle.
I dont think Echo Sabre is the item choice for offlane Aba, ur purpose is to cause havoc and force enemies to hit u while still providing auras for ur team, i would rather spend 2k for the earlier vlads or pipe or whatever to help ur team. Think off aba like Tidehunter who doesnt have big ult to use but provides constant heals and purges to ur team. As Tide u dont want to be one R wonder either. Guardian Greaves Description is pretty outdated, we are not going for the arcane mek build anymore with support aba. Whether item belongs to extension in the first place is debatable, imo with the current build not. Also Abaddon is the Infused Raindrops carrier in the game, Low mana cost and low cooldown spells on low mana pool hero.
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On May 25 2016 14:52 Velzi wrote: Aghs and AL were pretty popular after the change to aghs and introduction to AL, later on they kinda fall off and people went to back to blink force first. Both are fine, i feel like Blink Force gives u more options but less stats where as Aghs or/and AL locks u into ulti/stun/sandstorm combo without escape (assuming u use stun aggressively to keep enemies under ur ulti. Situational/Aggressive? boots should be phase or treads imo, what are u suppose to do with tranqs anyways (u are gonna get hit in the fights, thats ur role, also u dont need the regen for farming). Phase for lane dominance, treads for stats. If we add Veil into Core, we are locked to 5 items after the core items even without TP (Null Wand Arcs Mek Aghs Veil) I dont know what this aggressive tab is, Blademail could be just situational and remove another boots, whats the idea behind it? I was against the Necro Mek build earlier when we had discussion about this but cant remember why we kept the mek, but since we have it now, might as well keep it. Drow really needs one mobility item and imo SB is safer here than Blink, Pike is interesting but comes much later, tho it has easier build up to compensate. Early lvl on return is great if u have no way killing enemies (1v3 lane or hard 1v2 lane), otherwise u might want to max out ur burst, double edge is really strong early but hard to use without killing urself in the process. I dont know whats the point on 2-2-1 over 1-3-1, u have literally no mana to use stun more than once and W scales better in terms of damage and has less than half the cooldown of stomp. Obviously Double Edge requires some sort of regen to compensate increased health loss but still i would say its better to go 1-4-1-1 over 2-3-1-1. Pretty sure its the Tome that needs to be removed if we want to get more items in. Also Daedalus? rather MKB or Abyssal or something. Also the whole guide is confusing as fuck imo, i think we really need to look into going for one bounty build over other. Aghs is pretty damn good but i get ur point, i agree we should stick on the normal right clicker until Luna gets played more and we see what pros build (most likely still right click and few aghs here and there in specific line ups). I would add AC for the Extension, sometimes a lot better option and Butter if enemy team is all about physical and they have MKBs coming/ready and ur team lacks armor as well. Both Butter and AC is not unheard of either imo. Then there is the good old Glaive lvling discussion. Offlane abas maxed R>W>E>Q, support abas R>W>Q>E in epicenter, if u dont take in account Bulba who does stupid shit all the time.Also non of the offlane abas where against proper trilane, always vs relatively weak dual lane or dual + passive jungle. I dont think Echo Sabre is the item choice for offlane Aba, ur purpose is to cause havoc and force enemies to hit u while still providing auras for ur team, i would rather spend 2k for the earlier vlads or pipe or whatever to help ur team. Think off aba like Tidehunter who doesnt have big ult to use but provides constant heals and purges to ur team. As Tide u dont want to be one R wonder either. Guardian Greaves Description is pretty outdated, we are not going for the arcane mek build anymore with support aba. Whether item belongs to extension in the first place is debatable, imo with the current build not. Also Abaddon is the Infused Raindrops carrier in the game, Low mana cost and low cooldown spells on low mana pool hero.
If you check other builds: two months ago it was Blink/Force into Aghs/Aether Lens and now it is Blink -> Aether Lens -> Aghs or something of that sort.
You didn't look at the build. There are two Necrophos builds: one with Meka and the other without.
We kept the Meka because there are two core builds that can accomodate both playstyles.
I can add Assault Cuirass
The build already has an early Vlad's before Echo Sabre.
I will update the description.
I will add Infused Raindrop
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oh the Aggressive Build is Core too, my bad. Not that the build makes any sense but yeah its core.
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On Aba:
+ Show Spoiler +We're probably getting into the "finer details" here, but offlane Aba as some kind of right clicker is still the wrong way to look at the hero. You still should use shield and coil on the appropriate target on cooldown in fights. You need to be there to remove Primal Roar, Shackles, Fiends Grips and whatnot. Or just simply dumping both spells on a focused target so he survives.
You sticking on a target and whacking away shouldnt happen. If you are, you arent doing your duties. Besides, even supports dont die very fast to him. Just turning around doing a 180 and shielding a teammate likely loses you melee range on your target. And you still need to care for your positioning the way any melee does. I dare say that if you actually look at fights from high level offlane Abas they still dont right click primarily.
Thats why Im very much against all those items. And especially Saber since his attack are pathetic for a right clicker. You might as well go Saber Omni or Saber Ogre then.
What he is great at though is soaking up shit and having items that provide useful stuff even when you're not glued to a target. Auras do. Vlads is amazing, AC too. Agh does this. Pipe does this. Shivas does. Radiance does. Blade mail is fine too. Drums is kinda bad now but at least has an aura component too. All these items are "core" items that can be extermely useful without counting on you hitting a target. These are the items an offlane aba should build. Even if you're a right click believer, go Vlad -> AC then (nothing wrong shooting for a 5k item as 2nd item). Or Vlad -> Blade mail -> AC. Those are both solid builds and might the best of both the right click world and utility world. Or if you have a great game, go radiance.
If Saber Aba is a thing then Armlet, MoM, Maelstrom, Basher all could be too. Honestly the new armlet would probably be superior.
But all in all for new players they should focus on aura/utility items. Why not just suggest Vlad -> AC?
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On May 25 2016 13:36 Torte de Lini wrote:
Shadow Blade is obtained for positioning and escape, not necessary to gank (though Shadow Blade into Gust is strong). 22 Damage and attack speed seems like a decent item to get for someone who gets caught out as Drow Ranger
On May 25 2016 14:52 Velzi wrote:
Drow really needs one mobility item and imo SB is safer here than Blink,
With these reasonings, why isnt shadow blade core on just about any carry then? I could list 20 or 30 heroes easily (PA, Viper, SF, Medusa, Razor, BS, etc etc) who "could use a mobility item" or "can make use of it if caught". Theres absolutely no synergy between how drow wants to play, what drow is good at, and shadow blade as an item. If you build it on drow, build it on everyone.
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On May 25 2016 16:35 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2016 13:36 Torte de Lini wrote:
Shadow Blade is obtained for positioning and escape, not necessary to gank (though Shadow Blade into Gust is strong). 22 Damage and attack speed seems like a decent item to get for someone who gets caught out as Drow Ranger
Show nested quote +On May 25 2016 14:52 Velzi wrote:
Drow really needs one mobility item and imo SB is safer here than Blink,
With these reasonings, why isnt shadow blade core on just about any carry then? I could list 20 or 30 heroes easily (PA, Viper, SF, Medusa, Razor, BS, etc etc) who "could use a mobility item" or "can make use of it if caught". Theres absolutely no synergy between how drow wants to play, what drow is good at, and shadow blade as an item. If you build it on drow, build it on everyone.
List me all the heroes and I will break down each decision for you.
+ Phantom Assassin has Blink Strike
+ Viper is going the more tanky build with Mekansm
+ Shadow Fiend has Shadow Blade
+ Medusa passively farms til her larger core items
+ Razor - Shadow Blade is a gimmick that is easily countered. His passive gives him plenty of speed and we offer alternative movement speed items that work with his build
+ Bloodseeker goes a more tanky build with Blade Mail
The synergy is that she gets caught out a lot and Shadow Blade mitigates that issue. It also allows her to get into battles more comfortably without fear of retribution (similar to how people used to go Blink -> Gust on Drow to initiate on foes).
On May 25 2016 15:32 Velzi wrote:
oh the Aggressive Build is Core too, my bad. Not that the build makes any sense but yeah its core.
Can you explain because that is the build some players go who skip on Meka/Guardian Greaves (we're not opting for a Dagon build any more)
On May 25 2016 16:26 Kreb wrote:On Aba: + Show Spoiler +We're probably getting into the "finer details" here, but offlane Aba as some kind of right clicker is still the wrong way to look at the hero. You still should use shield and coil on the appropriate target on cooldown in fights. You need to be there to remove Primal Roar, Shackles, Fiends Grips and whatnot. Or just simply dumping both spells on a focused target so he survives.
You sticking on a target and whacking away shouldnt happen. If you are, you arent doing your duties. Besides, even supports dont die very fast to him. Just turning around doing a 180 and shielding a teammate likely loses you melee range on your target. And you still need to care for your positioning the way any melee does. I dare say that if you actually look at fights from high level offlane Abas they still dont right click primarily.
Thats why Im very much against all those items. And especially Saber since his attack are pathetic for a right clicker. You might as well go Saber Omni or Saber Ogre then.
What he is great at though is soaking up shit and having items that provide useful stuff even when you're not glued to a target. Auras do. Vlads is amazing, AC too. Agh does this. Pipe does this. Shivas does. Radiance does. Blade mail is fine too. Drums is kinda bad now but at least has an aura component too. All these items are "core" items that can be extermely useful without counting on you hitting a target. These are the items an offlane aba should build. Even if you're a right click believer, go Vlad -> AC then (nothing wrong shooting for a 5k item as 2nd item). Or Vlad -> Blade mail -> AC. Those are both solid builds and might the best of both the right click world and utility world. Or if you have a great game, go radiance.
If Saber Aba is a thing then Armlet, MoM, Maelstrom, Basher all could be too. Honestly the new armlet would probably be superior.
But all in all for new players they should focus on aura/utility items. Why not just suggest Vlad -> AC?
Again. The issue is that players will run out of mana playing Abaddon as max Coil + Shield if they're playing a hard support. I know I have every time. It's not a necessarily viable method that works as comfortably as it does in professional team compositions.
Abaddon high-level:
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2340720902 - Max Curse of the Avernus + Drums (Offlane)
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2349583669 - Max Shield (Roam)
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2387456243 - Two points in Curse before maxing Coil
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2387397562 - Max Shield + Meka
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2387350738 - Max Coil + Meka
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2345117611 - 3 in Curse before maxing Coil + right-click build
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2386620278 - Max Coil
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2381806482 - Max Curse
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2379054782 - Max Curse
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2384322591 - Max Curse + Right-click build
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2374893971 - Max Curse + Right-click build
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2386951457 - Max Curse + Right-click build
Epicenter:
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2361906123 - Two points in Curse before Coil
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2356168901 - Max Coil
I can do two points in Curse before maxing Coil, but I do not know for item build for both Cores
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On May 25 2016 17:20 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2016 15:32 Velzi wrote:
oh the Aggressive Build is Core too, my bad. Not that the build makes any sense but yeah its core. Can you explain because that is the build some players go who skip on Meka/Guardian Greaves (we're not opting for a Dagon build any more)
U mean people really go Null -> Tranqs -> Blademail -> Aghs? is that even a build
I could see this "Non-Mek" build working with like Null Treads Veil Aghs Blink or something, but without any hp item before aghs seems really really weak (u have like 1000hp with the blademail, made of paper.
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On May 25 2016 19:05 Velzi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2016 17:20 Torte de Lini wrote:On May 25 2016 15:32 Velzi wrote:
oh the Aggressive Build is Core too, my bad. Not that the build makes any sense but yeah its core. Can you explain because that is the build some players go who skip on Meka/Guardian Greaves (we're not opting for a Dagon build any more) U mean people really go Null -> Tranqs -> Blademail -> Aghs? is that even a build I could see this "Non-Mek" build working with like Null Treads Veil Aghs Blink or something, but without any hp item before aghs seems really really weak (u have like 1000hp with the blademail, made of paper.
It's currently Aghs -> Blade Mail
But I just replaced Tranquil with Power Treads and Blade Mail with Veil of Discord.
Regardless, a lot of builds are skipping Meka for something else containing these 3-4 items.
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Bounty has a million items because you're still trying to do a weird dual-core when rightclick bounty hasn't been a thing for three years. Ditch the dual core and put lotus in with the free slots that gives you.
If you want a non-mek necro build I think veil blink aghs is your man. For the hundredth time, you should pick one build and do it properly rather than doing both badly. How is a 2k guide player supposed to tell when it's appropriate to go mek versus veil?
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
bounty is just so much better in the utility offlane/roamer role. arcanes into mek (maybe midas after arcanes to help u get lvl 11 faster) then blink, greaves, lotus orb or watever utility item ur team needs. u can buy stuff like dagon and eblade for damage as well
in fact bounty offlane is just a waste of a really solid roamer who can easily set up kills with just oov. tangoes oov clarity and sentries starting items. look for vulnerable lanes that are killable, lurk mid for courier snipe, consider getting tome if ur falling behind in levels.
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On May 25 2016 19:59 Belisarius wrote:
Bounty has a million items because you're still trying to do a weird dual-core when rightclick bounty hasn't been a thing for three years. Ditch the dual core and put lotus in with the free slots that gives you.
If you want a non-mek necro build I think veil blink aghs is your man. For the hundredth time, you should pick one build and do it properly rather than doing both badly. How is a 2k guide player supposed to tell when it's appropriate to go mek versus veil?
Just because Bounty Hunter can have more items to build doesn't mean we'll include them as it can confuse new users anyways. An overabundance in choice doesn't necessarily improve a build, it just makes it seem more "complete" when in reality, the purpose is lost.
The build itself works, it is just limited and demands us to make hard decisions (such as which items to keep or cut).
There is enough room in Necrophos to include both builds at a good quality. On top of that, you overestime how important decision-making is in the 2K level. If someone else went Meka, you go the other build. It's really that simple.
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 Alchemist (Middle)
Added Faerie Fire to Starting Items
Added Ghost Scepter to Situational Items
Added Shiva's Guard to Extension Items
Added Moon Shard to Extension Items
Added Eye of Skadi to Extension Items
Removed Mjollnir
Removed Heart of Tarrasque
Removed Blink Dagger
Removed Iron Branch
Luna
Added Assault Cuirass to Extension Items
Nyx Assassin (Middle)
Nyx Assassin (Lane)
Removed Necromonicon - Level 3
Bounty Hunter
Added Assault Cuirass to Extension Items
Added Aether Lens to Extension - Roam
Added Solar Crest to Extension - Roam
Added Lotus Orb to Extension - Roam
Removed Tome of Experience
Centaur Warrunner
New Skill Build: Q E W W Q R W W Q Q R E E E R (1. Double Edge 2. Hoof Stomp 3. Return)
 Phantom Lancer
Added Stout Shield to Starting Items
Added Poor Man's Shield to Early Game
Removed Ring of Protection
Abaddon
New Skill Build: W E W E W R W Q Q Q R Q E E R (1. Aphotic Shield 2. Mist Coil 3. Curse of the Avernus)
Added Ring of Protection to Starting Items
Added Soul Ring to Core Items (Lane)
Added Tranquil Boots to Core Items (Lane)
Added Ring of Basilius to Core Items - Offlane
Added Quelling Blade to Core Items- Offlane
Added Echo Sabre to Core Items - Offlane
Added Ghost Scepter to Situational Items
Added Aghanim's Scepter to Extension Items
Moved Vladmir's Offering to Core - Offlane
Moved Aether Lens to Core Items (Lane)
Moved Solar Crest to Extension Items
Removed Observer Ward
Removed Arcane Boots
Removed Urn of Shadows
Removed Mekansm
Removed Blade Mail
Removed Shiva's Guard
Ogre Magi
Added Enchanted Mango to Starting Items
Moved Force Staff to Core Items
Moved Aether Lens to Extension Items
Moved Aghanim's Scepter to Extension Items
Removed Iron Branch
Chaos Knight
New Skill Build: Q W Q W Q W Q W E R R E E E R (1. Chaos Bolt 2. Reality Rift 3. Chaos Strike)
 Lifestealer (Jungle)
Added Echo Sabre to Core Items
Added Desolator to Extension Items
Moved Sange & Yasha to Situational Items
Removed Wind Lace
Lifestealer (Lane)
Added Echo Sabre to Situational Items
Added Desolator to Extension Items
Removed Wind Lace
Faceless Void
Added Infused Raindrop to Early Game
Removed Iron Branches x2
Removed Magic Wand
Removed Echo Sabre
 Timbersaw
New Skill Build: E W E W W R W Q Q Q R Q E E R (1. Timber Chain 2. Reactive Armor 3. Whirling Death)
Created New Tab: "Early Game"
Added Soul Ring to "Early Game"
Added Boots of Speed to "Early Game"
Added Quelling Blade to Core Items
Added Blink Dagger to Extension Items
Moved Aghanim's Scepter to Extension Items
Removed Magic Wand
Removed Iron Branch x2
Removed Enchanted Mango
Ancient Apparition (Middle)
Ancient Apparition (Lane)
Created New Tab: "Situational Items"
Added Urn of Shadows to Early Game
Added Octarine Core to Extension Items
Moved Hand of Midas to "Situational Items"
Moved Veil of Discord to "Situational Items"
Moved Rod of Atos to "Situational Items"
Moved Glimmer Cape to "Situational Items"
 Tinker
Added Aether Lens to Core Items
Moved Bloodstone to Extension Items
Removed Shiva's Guard
Removed Eul's Scepter of Divinity
Removed Boots of Speed - Level 2
Doom (Jungle)
New Skill Build: Q W E W W R W Q Q Q R E E E R (1. Scorched Earth 2. Devour 3. Infernal Blade)
Added Mekansm to Core Items
Moved Drums of Endurance to Situational Items
Moved Blade Mail to Situational Items
Removed Tranquil Boots
Removed Silver Edge
Removed Drums of Endurance
Doom (Lane)
New Skill Build: Q W E W W R W Q Q Q R E E E R (1. Scorched Earth 2. Devour 3. Infernal Blade)
Added Ring of Protection to Starting Items
Added Tranquil Boots to Core Items
Added Iron Talon to Core Items
Added Shadow Blade to Core Items
Moved Blink Dagger to Situational Items
Moved Vladmir's Offering to Extension Items
Moved Silver Edge to Extension Items
Removed Phase Boots
Removed Drums of Endurance
Removed Refresher Orb
Removed Enchanted Mango
 Spectre
Created New Tab: "Core - Early Fight"
Added Phase Boots to "Core - Ganking"
Added Drums of Endurance to "Core - Ganking"
Added Diffusal Blade - Level 1 to "Core - Ganking"
Added Manta Style to "Core - Ganking"
Moved Manta Style to Core Items
Huskar
New Skill Build: W E W Q W R W E E E R Q Q Q R (1. Burning Spear 2. Berserker's Blood 3. Inner Vitality)
Added Ghost Scepter to Situational Items
Drow Ranger
Created New Tab: "Situational Items"
Added Sange & Yasha to "Situational Items"
Added Monkey King Bar to Extension Items
Moved Morbid Mask to Early Game
Moved Silver Edge to "Situational Items"
Removed Tome of Knowledge
Removed Helm of the Dominator
 Razor
Added Infused Raindrop to Early Game
Added Linken's Sphere to Situational Items
Added Shiva's Guard to Extension Items
Added Eye of Skadi to Extension Items
Removed Iron Branch
Removed Faerie Fire
Removed Boots of Travel
Removed Magic Wand
Removed Refresher Orb
Removed Aghanim's Scepter
 Axe (Lane)
Axe (Jungle)
Created New Tab: "Utility Items"
Added Infused Raindrop to Core Items
Added Tome of Experience to "Utility Items"
Added Infused Raindrop to "Utility Items"
Added Gem of True Sight to "Utility Items"
Removed Wind Lace
Elder Titan (Lane)
New Skill Build: W Q Q W Q R Q E E E R E W W R (1. Natural Order 2. Echo Stomp 3. Astral Spirit)
Created New Tab: "Utility Items"
Added Observer Ward to "Utility Items"
Added Sentry Ward to "Utility Items"
Added Dust of Appearance to "Utility Items"
Added Smoke of Deceit to "Utility Items"
Added Tome of Experience to "Utility Items"
Added Veil of Discord to Extension Items
Elder Titan (Middle)
New Skill Build: W E E Q E R E W W W R Q Q Q R (1. Natural Order 2. Astral Spirit 3. Echo Stomp)
Added Phase Boots to Core Items
Added Echo Sabre to Core Items
Moved Drums of Endurance to Situational Items
Moved Blade Mail to Extension Items
Removed Power Treads
Removed Heart of Tarrasque
 Slark (Lane)
Slark (Middle)
Added Quelling Blade to Early Game
Added Hand of Midas to Situational Items
Added Abyssal Blade to Extension Items
Removed Skull Basher
 Riki
Added Faerie Fire x2 to Starting Items
Added Abyssal Blade to Extension Items
Moved Vladmir's Offering to Extension Items
Removed Healing Salve
Removed Echo Sabre
Removed Skull Basher
Removed Daedalus
Necrophos
Added Null Talisman to Starting Items
Added Arcane Boots to Core Items
Added Power Treads Core - "Aggressive"
Added Rod of Atos to Core - Aggressive
Added Wind Lace to Situational Items
Added Veil of Discord to Situiational Items
Added Guardian Greaves to Extension Items
Added Scythe of Vyse to Extension Items
Moved Blade Mail to Situational Items
Moved Blink Dagger to Extension Items
Removed Iron Branch
Removed Enchanted Mango
Removed Healing Salve
Removed Power Treads
Removed Dagon - Level 1
Removed Silver Edge
Removed Ethereal Blade
Phantom Assassin
New Skill Build: Q W Q E Q R Q W W W R E E E R (1. Stifling Dagger 2. Phantom Strike 3. Blur)
Added Tango to Starting Items
Added Boots of Speed to Early Game
Added Blight Stone to Early Game
Added Phase Boots to Core Items
Added Armlet of Mordiggan to Situational Items
Added Manta Style to Situational Items
Added Desolator to Extension Items
Added Vladmir's Offering to Extension Items
Added Abyssal Blade to Extension Items
Removed Ring of Protection
Removed Healing Salve
Removed Power Treads
Removed Skull Basher
Removed Helm of the Dominator
Removed Monkey King Bar
Ember Spirit (Middle)
Added Poor Man's Shield to Starting Items
Removed Enchanted Mango
Removed Iron Branch
Removed Healing Salve
Ember Spirit (Lane)
Added Poor Man's Shield to Starting Items
Removed Enchanted Mango
Removed Iron Branch
Removed Healing Salve
 Slardar
Created New Tab: "Early Game"
Added Iron Branch x2 to Starting Items
Added Observer Ward to Starting Items
Added Boots of Speed to Early Game
Added Tranquil Boots to Core Items
Added Heart of Tarrasque to Extension Items
Moved Iron Talon to "Early Game"
Moved Armlet of Mordiggan to Core Items
Moved Echo Sabre to Situational Items
Removed Power Treads
Removed Blight Stone
Removed Enchanted Mango
 Sven
Added Armlet of Mordiggan to Situational Items
 Juggernaut
Added Abyssal Blade to Extension Items
Removed Skull Basher
 Omniknight
Moved Aether Lens to Core Items
Removed Mekansm
 Broodmother
Added Quelling Blade to Early Game
Added Phase Boots to Core Items
Added Diffusal Blade - Level 2 to Situational Items
Added Manta Style to Extension Items
Added Bloodthorn to Extension Items
Added Solar Crest to Extension Items
Moved Sange & Yasha to Situational Items
Removed Clarity
Removed Faerie Fire
Removed Power Treads
Removed Monkey King Bar
Removed Desolator
 Viper
New Skill Build: Q W Q E E R E E Q W R W Q W R (1. Corrosive Skin 2. Nethertoxin 3. Poison Attack)
Added Dragon Lance to Core Items
Added Hurricane Pike to Extension Items
Moved Aghanim's Scepter to Extension Items
 Tusk
Created New Tab: "Utility Items"
Added Animal Courier to Starting Items
Added Observer Ward to Starting Items
Added Observer Ward to "Utility Items"
Added Sentry Ward to "Utility Items"
Added Tome of Experience to "Utility Items"
Added Dust of Appearance to "Utility Items"
Added Gem of True Sight to "Utility Items"
Added Smoke of Deceit to "Utility Items"
Removed Stout Shield
 Medusa
New Skill Build: W E W E W R W Q Q Q Q E E R R (1. Mystic Snake 2. Split Shot 3. Mana Shield)
Added Dragon Lance to Situational Items
Added Bloodthorn to Extension Items
Moved Eye of Skadi to Extension Items
Removed Drums of Endurance
Removed Divine Rapier
Removed Boots of Travel - Level 2
Dragon Knight (Middle)
Dragon Knight (Lane)
Added Shadow Blade to Core items
Added Drums of Endurance to Situational Items
Added Heaven's Halberd to Situational Items
Moved Armlet to Core Items
Moved Blink Dagger to Situational Items
Moved Sange & Yasha to Situational Items
Moved Silver Edge to Extension Items
 Silencer (Lane)
New Skill Build: Q W Q E Q R Q E E E R W W W R (1. Arcane Curse 2. Last Word 3. Glaives of Wisdom)
Terrorblade
New Skill Build: Q E E W W W W E E R R Q Q Q R (1. Conjure Image 2. Metamorphosis 3. Reflection)
Added Ring of Protection to Starting Items
Added Tango to Starting Items
Added Diffusal Blade - Level 2 to Situational Items
Added Linken's Sphere to Situational Items
Moved Quelling Blade to Early Game
Moved Black King Bar to Extension Items
Moved Boots of Travel - Level 2 to Extension Items
Moved Butterfly to Extension Items
Moved Monkey King Bar to Extension Items
Removed Faerie Fire
Removed Poor Man's Shield
Removed Vladmir's Offering
Removed Daedalus
 Morphling
New Skill Build: E Q Q E Q R Q E E W R W W W R (1. Waveform 2. Morph 3. Adaptive Strike)
Created New Tab: "Utility Items"
Added Tango to Starting Items
Added Iron Branch to Starting Items
Added Ring of Basilius to Early Game
Added Town Portal Scroll" to "Utility Items"
Added Quelling Blade to Situational Items
Moved Ethereal Blade to Core Items
Moved Satanic to Extension Items
Moved Manta Style to Extension Items
Removed Enchanted Mango
Removed Bottle
Removed Wraith Band
Removed Boots of Travel - Level 2
Wraith King
Added Hand of Midas to Situational Items
 Sniper (Lane)
New Skill Build: Q W Q E Q R Q E E E R W W W R (1. Shrapnel 2. Take Aim 3. Headshot
Added Daedalus to Extension Items
Moved Manta Style to Core Items
Moved Sange & Yasha to Situational Items
Sniper (Middle)
New Skill Build: W E Q Q Q R Q E E E R W W W R (1. Shrapnel 2. Take Aim 3. Headshot
Added Daedalus to Extension Items
Moved Manta Style to Core Items
Moved Sange & Yasha to Situational Items
 Bristleback
Added Drums of Endurance to Situational Items
Added Vladmir's Offering to Extension Items
Moved Sange & Yasha to Situational Items
Moved Heaven's Halberd to Extension Items
Removed Blight Stone
Removed Wind Lace
Removed Moon Shard
 Kunkka (Middle)
New Skill Build: W Q Q E E R Q Q E E R W W W R (1. Torrent 2. X Marks The Spot 3. Tidebringer)
Added Armlet of Mordiggan to Core Items
Added Heaven's Halberd to Situational Items
Moved Silver Edge to Extension Items
Removed Heart of Tarrasque
Removed Moon Shard
Removed Divine Rapier
Kunkka (Lane)
New Skill Build: Q E E Q E R E Q Q W R W W W R (1. X Marks The Spot 2. Torrent 3. Tidebringer)
Created New Tab: "Utility Items"
Added Animal Courier to Starting Items
Added Observer Ward x2 to Starting Items
Added Arcane Boots to Core Items
Added Aether Lens to Core Items
Added Mekansm to Core Items
Added Observer Ward to "Utility Items"
Added Sentry Ward to "Utility Items"
Added Dust of Appearance to "Utility Items"
Added Smoke of Deceit to "Utility Items"
Added Gem of True Sight to "Utility Items"
Added Gem of True Sight to "Utility Items"
Added Tome of Experience to "Utility Items"
Added Urn of Shadows to Situational Items
Added Drum of Endurnace to Situational Items
Added Force Staff to Situational Items
Added Ghost Scepter to Situational Items
Added Veil of Discord to Extension Items
Added Glimmer Cape to Extension Items
Added Guardian Greaves to Extension Items
Added Vladmir's Offering to Extension Items
Added Aghanim's Scepter to Extension Items
Moved Blink Dagger to Extension Items
Removed Iron Branch x2
Removed Healing Salve
Removed Shadow Blade
Removed Black King Bar
Removed Silver Edge
Removed Assault Cuirass
Removed Monkey King Bar
Removed Heart of Tarrasque
Removed Daedalus
Removed Boots of Travel
Removed Moon Shard
Removed Divine Rapier
 Mirana
New Skill Build: New Skill Build: W E Q Q Q R Q W E E E W W R R (1. Starstorm 2. Leap 3. Sacred Arrow)
Added Wraith Band to Early Game
Added Hand of Midas to Situational Items
Added Blink Dagger to Situational Items
Added Eul's Scepter of Divinity to Situational Items
Added Drum of Endurance to Situational Items
Added Desolator to Extension Items
Moved Linken's Sphere to Situational Items
Moved Aghanim's Scepter to Core Items
Removed Clarity
Removed Ring of Protection
Removed Slippers of Agility
Removed Maelstrom
Removed Veil of Discord
Removed Solar Crest
 Ursa (Lane)
New Skill Build: E Q W Q E R E E W W R W Q Q R (1. Fury Swipes 2. Overpower 3. Earthshock)
Added Quelling Blade to Early Game
Added Morbid Mask to Early Game
Added Orb of Venom to Situational Items
Removed Enchanted Mango
Removed Iron Branch
Removed Vladmir's Offering
Ursa (Jungle)
Added Mask of Madness to Core Items
Moved Iron Talon to Core Items
Removed Vladmir's Offering
Legion Commander (Lane)
Added Daedalus to Extension Items
Moved Iron Talon to Core Items
Moved Blade Mail to Core Items
Moved Blink Dagger to Core Items
Moved Sange & Yasha to Situational Items
Moved Black King Bar to Extension Items
Removed Magic Wand
Removed Shadow Blade
Legion Commander (Middle)
Added Daedalus to Extension Items
Moved Iron Talon to Core Items
Moved Blade Mail to Core Items
Moved Blink Dagger to Core Items
Moved Sange & Yasha to Situational Items
Moved Black King Bar to Extension Items
Removed Magic Wand
Removed Shadow Blade
Renamed Offlane
Night Stalker
New Skill Build: Q E Q W Q R Q E E E R W W W R (1. Void 2. Hunter in the Night 3. Crippling Fear)
Added Enchanted Mango to Starting Items
Added Power Treads to Core Items
Added Smoke of Deceit to Utility Items
Added Dust of Appearance to Utility Items
Added Gem of True Sight to Utility Items
Added Hand of Midas to Situational Items
Added Armlet of Mordiggan to Situational Items
Added Force Staff to Extension Items
Added Abyssal Blade to Extension Items
Moved Heaven's Halberd to Situational Items
Moved Solar Crest to Extension Items
Removed Iron Branch x2
Removed Bottle
Removed Orb of Venom
Removed Phase Boots
Removed Pipe of Insight
Removed Blade Mail
Removed Silver Edge
Removed Monkey King Bar
 Beastmaster (Lane)
New Skill Build: Q W W E W R W E E E R Q Q Q (1. Call of the Wild 2. Inner Beast 3. Wild Axes)
Added Ring of Protection to Starting Items
Added Force Staff to Situational Items
Added Pipe of Insight to Situational Items
Moved Solar Crest to Extension Items
Removed Enchanted Mango
Removed Iron Branch
Removed Magic Wand
Renamed Jungle
Beastmaster (Middle)
New Skill Build: W E W E W R W E E Q R Q Q Q R (1. Call of the Wild 2. Inner Beast 3. Wild Axes)
Added Tranquil Boots to Core Items
Added Observer Wards to Utility Items
Added Sentry Wards to Utility Items
Added Tome of Experience to Utility Items
Added Force Staff to Situational Items
Added Pipe of Insight to Situational Items
Added Refresher Orb to Extension Items
Moved Solar Crest to Extension Items
Removed Stout Shield
Removed Quelling Blade
Removed Iron Branch
Removed Healing Salve
Removed Iron Talon
Removed Boots of Speed
Removed Bottle
Removed Aghanim's Scepter
Phoenix (Lane)
New Skill Build: Q E E W E R E W W W R Q Q Q R (1. Sun Ray 2. Fire Spirits 3. Icarus Dive)
Created New Tab: "Utility Items"
Added Animal Courier to Starting Items
Added Observer Ward to Starting Items
Added Ghost Scepter to Situational Items
Added Aether Lens to Extension Items
Added Refresher Orb to Extension Items
Moved Urn of Shadows to Core Items
Moved Hand of Midas to Situational Items
Removed Ring of Protection
Removed Urn of Shadows
Removed Rod of Atos
Removed Octarine Core
Renamed Offlane
Phoenix (Middle)
Added Ghost Scepter to Situational Items
Added Aether Lens to Extension Items
Added Refresher Orb to Extension Items
Moved Urn of Shadows to Situational Items
Removed Rod of Atos
Removed Octarine Core
Renamed Quas/Exort
 Invoker (Middle)
New Skill Build: E Q E Q E Q E Q W E R R E W E R W W W W W Q Q Q (1. Exort 2. Wex 3. Quas)
Added Tango to Starting Items
Added Boots of Speed to Core Items
Added Blink Dagger to Core Items
Added Linken's Sphere to Extension Items
Added Scythe of Vyse to Extension Items
Moved Hand of Midas to Core Items
Moved Boots of Travel to Core Items
Moved Aghanim's Scepter to Core Items
Removed Faerie Fire
Removed Phase Boots
Removed Urn of Shadows
Removed Orchid of Malevolence
Removed Necromonicon - Level 3
Removed Bloodthorn
New Guide
Invoker (Quas/Wex)
Skill Build: Q W Q W Q W W Q W R R E W E E R E E E Q Q Q E W (1. Quas 2. Exort 3. Wex)
Starting Items: Faerie Fire, Iron Branch, Iron Branch, Tango
Core Items: Phase Boots, Urn of Shadows, Magic Wand, Orchid of Malevolence
Situational Items: Hand of Midas, Drums of Endurance, Force Staff, Eul's Scepter of Divinity, Black King Bar, Necromonicon - Level 3
Extension Items: Boots of Travel, Agahnim's Scepter, Refresher Orb, Octarine Core, Bloodthorn
Notes:
of note: http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/the-tavern/453377-in-game-standard-hero-builds-140-million-subscriptions?page=295#5896
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On May 26 2016 08:03 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2016 19:59 Belisarius wrote:
Bounty has a million items because you're still trying to do a weird dual-core when rightclick bounty hasn't been a thing for three years. Ditch the dual core and put lotus in with the free slots that gives you.
If you want a non-mek necro build I think veil blink aghs is your man. For the hundredth time, you should pick one build and do it properly rather than doing both badly. How is a 2k guide player supposed to tell when it's appropriate to go mek versus veil?
Just because Bounty Hunter can have more items to build doesn't mean we'll include them as it can confuse new users anyways. An overabundance in choice doesn't necessarily improve a build, it just makes it seem more "complete" when in reality, the purpose is lost.
I actually just sat here for a good three minutes lost for words at this.
The bolded quote is absolutely correct, but if you really think it's less confusing to include a single situational item than it is to maintain an entire redundant parallel build, we clearly have no common ground here.
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On May 26 2016 09:53 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2016 08:03 Torte de Lini wrote:On May 25 2016 19:59 Belisarius wrote:
Bounty has a million items because you're still trying to do a weird dual-core when rightclick bounty hasn't been a thing for three years. Ditch the dual core and put lotus in with the free slots that gives you.
If you want a non-mek necro build I think veil blink aghs is your man. For the hundredth time, you should pick one build and do it properly rather than doing both badly. How is a 2k guide player supposed to tell when it's appropriate to go mek versus veil?
Just because Bounty Hunter can have more items to build doesn't mean we'll include them as it can confuse new users anyways. An overabundance in choice doesn't necessarily improve a build, it just makes it seem more "complete" when in reality, the purpose is lost. I actually just sat here for a good three minutes lost for words at this. The bolded quote is absolutely correct, but if you really think it's less confusing to include a single situational item than it is to maintaining an entire redundant parallel build, we clearly have no common ground here.
I've just updated Bounty Hunter to include more items and removed Tome of Experience. Bounty Hunter has room for two more items (in Extension)
It is less confusing to have two isolated item builds of 3-4 items with a common skill build than to have one skill build with a saturated amount of situational items + choice of extension items (maximum of 12 items in total) to account for every situation (and since not all situational items have text, it makes it even more difficult to distinguish when to buy what).
Abaddon gets two points in Curse during the laning stage and then maxes Coil after Shield.
Also removed Echo Sabre, opted for Vlads -> Drums and keeping AC in Extension Items
going the BF/Deso route with an early blight stone
For Core - Aggressive: it's Treads -> Atos -> Aghs. That should alleviate any health issues. Drums was in some builds, but they were extremely old (4+ Months old)
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On May 26 2016 09:57 Torte de Lini wrote:
It is less confusing to have two isolated item builds of 3-4 items with a common skill build than to have one skill build with a saturated amount of situational items + choice of extension items (maximum of 12 items in total) to account for every situation (and since not all situational items have text, it makes it even more difficult to distinguish when to buy what).
I strongly disagree.
Choosing a "build" commits them to 7k worth of items on what they see as a railroad path, with nothing more than the name to aid what is an incredibly nuanced decision. "Core - Lane" vs "Core - Aggressive" - what does that even mean? That is not clear to anyone.
In effect, this just means they will pick randomly. Because one of the options in the dual guide is usually niche, that means they will perform much worse on average than if you just gave them a single progression.
Situational items are much simpler because they are a single purchase with a clear use case that can be described. If they never buy a single one, they still follow a workable core->extension build. If they instead buy one inappropriately they are at least not stuck continuing down that path.
Saturating situationals is not a problem at all. In almost all cases, your dual guides are either overly redundant so there is little to add, like mek necro, or one build is unnecessary and all those items can simply be deleted, like rightclick bounty.
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Perhaps we won't ever agree on this, but this is what I would do
necro - core
starting - null tango
earlygame - boots wand
core - treads veil blink aghs
situational - greaves dagon blademail (bottle pipe)
extension - shivas sheep octarine (heart)
BH - support
starting- tango clarity x2 oov (wards cour sents)
earlygame - boots wand (urn blightstone) (wards sents)
core - arcanes mek
situational - bottle dagon euls lotus
extension - greaves blink solar sheep vlads
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EPT
