In-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 262

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CosmicSpiral

United States15275 Posts

January 06 2016 21:03 GMT

#5221

Why is Time Lock leveled up first if the core items are Vlads and Aghanim's Scepter?

Torte de Lini

Germany38463 Posts

January 06 2016 21:04 GMT

#5222

On January 07 2016 06:03 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Why is Time Lock leveled up first if the core items are Vlads and Aghanim's Scepter?

On January 06 2016 17:01 Torte de Lini wrote:

Show nested quote +

On January 05 2016 17:18 Velzi wrote:

On January 05 2016 10:27 BluemoonSC wrote:

On January 05 2016 07:29 Velzi wrote:
I dont think we should have void guide for the offlane in the first place, hero still excels better in the safelane especially in the lower bracket. Only thing that has changed is the fact that now u rather build void tanky rather than squishy initiator who removes 1 hero from the game in chrono.

I dont think blink is necessary in any position and i think u could just build void like any other melee carry is built nowadays (treads roa sny skadi bkb kinda stuff).

Obviously u benefit from attack speed even more than most of the heroes but u shouldnt feel like u have to get max attack speed in the first 2 items, rather tank up a bit and get damage output later (since with ur q u are suuper tanky early mid game, u are literally immortal if u have treads (vanguard, i still like it) sny etc.

Maxing q is safe while maxing e is greedy. Maxing w rarely makes sense but sometimes u feel like having more than 1 in w before lvl10 feels necessary but for guide, i would go 4-1-1-1 or just even lvl q and e.

he is an outstanding offlaner right now. you should try playing a couple of games before you make this conclusion.

I never said void is not a good offlaner right now, but i still think he is better in safelane. Problem i see with the offlane void is that if u put 1-2k player to solo offlane with void, they think the guide is fine until the point they use their first chrono to kill someone and they dont have damage output they think they have with void. Another problem with void is that if u build blink early with it, u are so dependent on to get a chrono that u are useless if u fuck it up even a bit (like magnus rp or enigma bh kinda style). Actually u can fuck up even more with void by chronoing ur own team (which is more than likely to happen in low brackets when u panic and do before thinking).

Im fine if u guys really think we should focus on putting void to exclusively offlane, but safelane is still the place for me until we get more data work on (and my data shows safe is better right now).

E: As someone said, we should have 2 guides but since its not possible at the moment i think we should focus on one rather than just throwing up useful items for both guides. And like i said earlier i dont see the reasoning behind blink first but if thats what majority wants who am i saying its not the item.

E2: Torte, ur guide is now maxing Time Lock over Time Walk, is that intented? (i think all agreed on maxing q over e earlier already). Linkens is actually interesting idea, have to look more into it.

I am 100% intending to change it to Time Walk max first tomorrow. Revamp it with Manta Style.

hasn't been updated yet

Torte de Lini

Germany38463 Posts

January 06 2016 21:53 GMT

#5223

Faceless Void
New Skill Build: Q E Q W Q R Q E E E R W W W R (1. Time Walk 2. Time Lock 3. Time Dilation)
Added Vladmir's Offering to Core Items
Added Yasha to Core Items
Added Butterfly To Luxury Items
Added Assault Cuirass to Extension Items
Moved Aghanim's Scepter to Core Items
Moved Sange and Yasha to Situational Items
Moved Monkey King Bar to Extension Items
Moved Black King Bar to Extension Items
Moved Refresher Orb to Luxury Items
Removed Mask of Madness
Removed Daedalus

Outworld Devourer
New Skill Build: W E Q E E Q E Q R Q R W W W R (1. Essence Aura 2. Arcane Orb 3. Astral Imprisonment)

Drow Ranger
New Skill Build: Q E Q W Q R Q E E E R W W W R (1. Frost Arrows 2. Precision Aura 3. Gust)
Added Iron Branch to Starting Items
Added Aghanim's Scepter to Extension Items

Rubick
Added Observer Ward to Starting Items

Dazzle
Added Observer Ward to Starting Items

Disruptor
Added Observer Ward to Starting Items

Chen
Removed Iron Branch

Oracle (Lane)
Oracle (Middle)
Moved Solar Crest to Situational Items
Moved Eul's Scepter of Divinity to Extension Items
Moved Glimmer Cape to Extension Items

Logo

United States7542 Posts

January 07 2016 22:12 GMT

#5224

Is it too early for Dragon Lance Enchantress to be added to the guide?

If the guide is going to recommend Agh's as a first item it seems like Dragon Lance first would be strictly better since it's significantly cheaper and lines up with Enchantress' timings better than trying to farm a 4.2k item on a support/jungle.

Plus absolute worse case you can disassemble the Dragon Lance for the Ogre Club (but it seems like a lot of enchantress players stack the two). Even if you really wanted Agh asap it seems like the ~400g you waste by making Dragon Lance first would be well worth it for +130 Impetus range 2000 gold earlier.

The only drawback of Lance first (besides the 60 range) would be not being able to pick up a point booster, but even then point booster -> Dragon Lance would still be 1k gold cheaper than Aghs.

All the top dotabuff players are picking it up, it's unclear if it's just testing or not I guess, but on paper it seems to make a whole lot of sense compared to aghs.

BluemoonSC

SoCal8910 Posts

January 08 2016 03:39 GMT

#5225

I think we'd have to wait for an optimal order, but the item is really good on that hero. With the changes to the map, I expect her to be seeing some offlane play as well. Untouchable is a heck of a spell.

I played a game a couple games ago, 4-1-4 solo offlane and managed to avoid ganks with 3 and 4 heroes (including sunstrike). I went point booster dragon lance, agha and it felt OK but I definitely had mana issues. That being said, since she's ranged I could have flown out a clarity every now and again after a fight bf stick charges weren't enough.

I think that dragon lance first is probably better bc the components are what she needs early if youre not 5 pos...bit of hp dmg and aspeed and the range is crazy, especially if you have a hero that decides to walk away from you after you throw out an impetus. Ill have to try dragon lance first tho.

You could also potentially dismantle the dragon lance for the ogre club to finish your agha then build back into it but idk if that's being too fancy for too little of a gain.

Torte de Lini

Germany38463 Posts

January 08 2016 08:09 GMT

#5226

Coming Monday, I'll be able to play Dota more regularly. Desperate to finally get into it being a regular habit after 3 months of settling in.

Matkinson

3 Posts

January 08 2016 17:53 GMT

#5227

pls place agh on earthshaker?

and heart?

Velzi

Finland659 Posts

January 08 2016 18:03 GMT

#5228

Aghs Earthshaker is situational at best, the damage increase is fairly low (5 man lvl3 echo +350dmg to each target when no creep nearby) compared to other items of same cost (f.e. u could pick Shivas for 500g more and deal guaranteed 200dmg and slow enemies movement and attack speed, + Shivas arguably gives more EHP with 15 armor).

Vs. certain heroes like PL, TB, CK etc. aghs increases damage a lot more but still u are a support looking for a 4k item with fairly low farming rate.

Matkinson

3 Posts

January 08 2016 18:17 GMT

#5229

Appreciate the response, I'm sure you're right, I still feel like there needs to be another extension item or two however.

Torte de Lini

Germany38463 Posts

January 08 2016 19:15 GMT

#5230

On January 09 2016 03:17 Matkinson wrote:
Appreciate the response, I'm sure you're right, I still feel like there needs to be another extension item or two however.

We can add Octarine Core, but I feel 4 items as Extension for an initiator is sufficient, no?

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

January 08 2016 19:19 GMT

#5231

Getting more than 2 of the extension items on Shaker should already be the exception. There isn't really a need for more extension items.

Shaker is a hero where after a point, more items isn't going to win or lose you games. Most of the hero's gains/losses are through good skill usage in tandem with Blink Dagger. Agha Slams are fun but in actuality most of those games could be won just as easily if you had 4.2k gold less and focused on using your skills better. Adding more extension items on the fraction of a percent chance people get a game where it actually matters isn't really getting you anything.

BluemoonSC

SoCal8910 Posts

January 08 2016 20:22 GMT

#5232

boots (soul ring?) blink force staff is all you really need to do your job as a support shaker.

by adding more extension items to guides, you're also increasing the chance of people skipping over important items. I'm sure its obvious why shaker gets a blink, but its probably less obvious why he would also need a force staff. so the thought of picking up an agha is probably way more appealing to the player that doesn't play shaker frequently bc it sounds like more dmg, so why get a force staff.

dunno to me, that's the thought process of a player using a guide bc they don't know the hero..they don't actually think about the items, they just get them bc the guide tells them to do so and they lost a game vs an agha shaker or something.

Torte de Lini

Germany38463 Posts

January 08 2016 21:11 GMT

#5233

Gonna start compiling a list of heroes to double-check now that we have the Shanghai Major Quals going on to help give some orientation.

BluemoonSC

SoCal8910 Posts

January 08 2016 21:20 GMT

#5234

for me #1 is faceless

im also interested in invoker as well as whether or not pro teams will pick OD

Torte de Lini

Germany38463 Posts

January 08 2016 21:29 GMT

#5235

1 million unique for

Zeus

If interested in a timeline of 1 million hits and milestones, you can check it here: http://steamcommunity.com/id/0825771

Birdie

New Zealand4438 Posts

January 08 2016 21:50 GMT

#5236

The problem with copying pro Void builds is that they're pretty reliant on the correct draft from what I've seen currently; not sure if that's appropriate for a guide. You do no damage with the build so you need to build burst damage heroes which do said damage from a certain amount of range away, e.g. Sky/Zeus/WD (arguably was important before as well, but more so now).

CosmicSpiral

United States15275 Posts

January 08 2016 22:00 GMT

#5237

Most pro Void builds are cookie-cutter Vlads -> Blink -> Aghs on the offlane. Nothing insightful on that front.

Torte de Lini

Germany38463 Posts

January 08 2016 22:00 GMT

#5238

I wil be compiling lists of pro game builds with the hero so we can see the circumstances.

Logo

United States7542 Posts

January 08 2016 22:11 GMT

#5239

On January 09 2016 04:15 Torte de Lini wrote:

Show nested quote +

We can add Octarine Core, but I feel 4 items as Extension for an initiator is sufficient, no?

In addition to what others said I think it's efficient too because by the time you've even built 1 of the extension items the possible items worth going for shrinks dramatically. The extension items listed already 6 slot you if you blindly pick them all up (boots, blink, force, shivas, rfo, veil). By the time someone gets into the extension part of the guide it's clear they are not going to be a right clicker, so if someone doesn't want the items listed the other choices are limited to the support group of items anyways. Basically I don't think there's that much of a group of players confident enough to make situational item choices, but bad enough to not realize Aghs as one of those choices. Especially since even vs the right heroes the aghs upgrade isn't really all that mandatory.

A Note for Earthshaker guide though: Veil's description mentions it as a nice pick up if you can't get Aghs, but aghs isn't part of the guide. I'd remove that part of the text entirely.

Other thought/note:

I'm noticing even in pro games a heavy use of iron talon over just getting quelling blade. Guides that recommend situationally grabbing a quelling, but not battlefury (like PL and Sven) seem like they should be converted to recommend Iron Talon instead. Do others agree or is there still a reason for casual quelling over iron talon?