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In-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 185

Forum Index > The Tavern
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Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
June 21 2015 11:09 GMT
#3681
Still at ESL One, won't be able to really get to the guides until Wednesday
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-21 15:27:35
June 21 2015 15:25 GMT
#3682
On June 17 2015 15:58 Torte de Lini wrote:
I'm pretty sure you do max it or you slip in another Jinada before actually maxing it no?

Jinada second vs. Shadow Walk second is like 50/50 on support BH, and you almost never max Shadow Walk before Jinada on core BH. The reason being that Shadow Walk is more useful overall if you don't have items and can't get in and use Jinada in fights--core BH gets to the point where he can once he gets some track kills along with his normal farm, but support BH needs considerably more to actually be able to justify getting in and using Jinadas on low CD like that, so it depends on his relative item/level progression.

You either need to split these into 2 separate guides because of the variable skill orders, or end up with something that's reasonable both ways (which is going to be 2 Shadow Walk->Max Jinada or 3 Shadow Walk->Max Jinada).
Moderator
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
June 23 2015 12:36 GMT
#3683
On June 20 2015 08:08 ElOhTeeBee wrote:
Tusk guide has Bottle listed as both Early Game and Situational.


I'll fix that, thanks!
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
June 23 2015 12:36 GMT
#3684
On June 20 2015 18:27 Nolari wrote:
Since 6.84, shouldn't Earth Spirit max Boulder Smash (Q) first and Geomagnetic Grip (E) second, instead of the other way around? They now scale exactly the same way in terms of damage (+50 damage each level) and duration (+0.5 seconds each level), but Boulder Smash additionally gets a reduced cooldown while Geomagnetic Grip's cooldown is static.


I'll take another look at this, haven't played ES in awhile (nor well)
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
June 23 2015 12:36 GMT
#3685
On June 22 2015 00:25 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 17 2015 15:58 Torte de Lini wrote:
I'm pretty sure you do max it or you slip in another Jinada before actually maxing it no?

Jinada second vs. Shadow Walk second is like 50/50 on support BH, and you almost never max Shadow Walk before Jinada on core BH. The reason being that Shadow Walk is more useful overall if you don't have items and can't get in and use Jinada in fights--core BH gets to the point where he can once he gets some track kills along with his normal farm, but support BH needs considerably more to actually be able to justify getting in and using Jinadas on low CD like that, so it depends on his relative item/level progression.

You either need to split these into 2 separate guides because of the variable skill orders, or end up with something that's reasonable both ways (which is going to be 2 Shadow Walk->Max Jinada or 3 Shadow Walk->Max Jinada).


I'll fix this as well, I read it over ESL One and found it made pretty much sense, also saw it in a couple of higher player builds.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-23 15:43:45
June 23 2015 12:37 GMT
#3686
To update:

All Bloodseeker builds done
Double-look at Earth Spirit done, looks like both are valid
Fix Tusk + Update done
Remake Broodmother entirely
Check if Beastmaster guides have been fixed (currently bugged) done, not fixed
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-23 15:48:47
June 23 2015 15:41 GMT
#3687
ed
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
June 23 2015 15:46 GMT
#3688
I think jungle BS still gets 1 in w sometime before level 10 since the value point makes ur ganks wayyy better.
I think mid BS probably gets 2 in q fairly fast for the permanent uptime although that could be wrong
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
June 23 2015 15:48 GMT
#3689
On June 24 2015 00:46 Sn0_Man wrote:
I think jungle BS still gets 1 in w sometime before level 10 since the value point makes ur ganks wayyy better.
I think mid BS probably gets 2 in q fairly fast for the permanent uptime although that could be wrong


I figured BS Mid gets the point in W since he gets levels faster and no point in W for Jungle since he is much slower.

also I added Hand of Midas to the guides (I think lane and jungle), I forgot to write it, thoughts?
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
June 23 2015 15:49 GMT
#3690
I mean there's no law against 2-1-2 for example, thirst scales well but ur hero doesn't stop existing if ur 1 point down on it.

I don't personally like midas bs but it's not unviable
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-26 10:30:11
June 23 2015 15:51 GMT
#3691
ed
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
June 23 2015 15:52 GMT
#3692
On June 24 2015 00:49 Sn0_Man wrote:
I mean there's no law against 2-1-2 for example, thirst scales well but ur hero doesn't stop existing if ur 1 point down on it.

I don't personally like midas bs but it's not unviable


Also power treads instead of Phase Boots

I'm basing it a lot on Secret as well though.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
June 23 2015 15:54 GMT
#3693
i wouldn't ever midas on jungle bs and i always get 2 1 2 because even the first point in w is quite a bit of damage with bloodrage applied on yourself and forces people to eat the silence or run during rupture (level 1 rupture damage is kind of underwhelming but a lot of people don't know that)
posting on liquid sites in current year
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-23 16:03:02
June 23 2015 16:02 GMT
#3694
Let's see how it goes, I have a feeling BS will be explored even more.

I did it for Lane and Jungle. See it a lot more in Dotabuff, could be just an effect of ESL though
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-24 18:31:38
June 24 2015 17:10 GMT
#3695
gotta redo medusa too
lycan lane too
brood too
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
BluemoonSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
SoCal8933 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-25 16:51:28
June 25 2015 16:45 GMT
#3696
On June 24 2015 00:54 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
i wouldn't ever midas on jungle bs and i always get 2 1 2 because even the first point in w is quite a bit of damage with bloodrage applied on yourself and forces people to eat the silence or run during rupture (level 1 rupture damage is kind of underwhelming but a lot of people don't know that)


Yeah this. The only time I'd go midas on the hero was if I was safelane and I got it at like 4 or 5 minutes bc you want to be fighting with him. Even then I'm not sure it's worth not immediately starting to get actual items bc of the hero.

E: as I'm thinking about it I think midas is better off in situational. Bc if you're able to start your item progression with fb gold, you're last hitting well etc, vs some lineups, you're gonna wanna get going early and the hero kills will quickly add up. Whereas some lineups you're okay with delaying the item progression in favor of quicker levels and having more money later.

Is the average pub player competent enough to make that call? Or bc it's in core, are we going to see 10 minute midas builds in all of our pubs bc they use your guide
LiquidDota Staff@BluemoonGG_
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
June 25 2015 16:54 GMT
#3697
Just keep in mind that midas is a mid-fight heal on BS which isn't irrelevant and also that hitting level 11 is very important as level 1 rupture kinda blows. G played safelane BS in an official today and went midas, not that its good every game but it is being done.
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
BluemoonSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
SoCal8933 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-25 16:58:59
June 25 2015 16:55 GMT
#3698
I'm not saying that it's bad or anything. I just think it's more situational than it is core.

Btw: I'm thinking about the target audience of these guides, not G and other pro players
LiquidDota Staff@BluemoonGG_
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
June 25 2015 16:57 GMT
#3699
how many players following this guide are gonna hold midas cd for a midfight heal rfl

the point about level 11 is true though and bs's early ganks probably arent too item dependent... yea idk it's probably fine to have midas
posting on liquid sites in current year
BluemoonSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
SoCal8933 Posts
June 25 2015 17:06 GMT
#3700
I just worry about the title "core."

Like you gotta remember that when you say something is core players interpret that as "I must get this item no matter what" so you're gonna get some shitty players that go for 10-15 minute midases ruining your pub experience.

Again I don't think there's anything wrong with it and it's better/worse in some games more than others. I just know how strictly people follow these guides. You can tell who is following a torte approved guide
LiquidDota Staff@BluemoonGG_
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