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On June 04 2015 02:57 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2015 23:10 Velzi wrote:
For bristleback i would move shivas and HH to situational and remove blademail completely (imo its garbage on bb). There is no reason to have both basher and abyssal somewhere, just remove basher. MKB should be situational too, u dont need it every game. Theres no lifesteal anywhere, satanic aint that bad honestly. Skadi could be mentioned as well (luxury i guess). so what i would have keep starting,early game and core same except no ac and rest:
situational: Solar Crest, CG, Pipe (defensive) / HH, MKB (offensive)
extension: AC/Shiva, HoT/Skadi
Luxury: Satanic, Abyssal, MS, BoT 2
So the idea is u start by building ur core first, then get situational item like HH/CG/Pipe if needed, then 2 extension items (most of the time it should be AC+HoT imo) and after that Luxury items, unless MKB/Solar Crest is needed.
thoughts?
E: i dont really know where SnY stands as pub bb, u have to play it as solo offlaner/ dual offlaner 99% of the time and as offlaner i would rather have something else than SnY. im gonna agree with you on blademail being trash, but heart is a garbo item and has been for the past couple patches
On June 04 2015 06:50 Pyromaniacal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2015 21:18 Torte de Lini wrote:On June 03 2015 21:12 Pyromaniacal wrote:
I, after looking over the bristle build, somewhat disagree. Bristle is a hero played in too many different ways to have a general build. In a tanky build, going something like vanguard into ac into skadi is viable, but a carry bristle may do better with armlet mek into heart. Armlet is one of the best bristle items, providing the strength of a Reaver, damage of a Sacred Relic, and some health and armor to boot. All for less than either, with really good buildup. A more of a utilityback may buy medallion/solar crest into a Shivas into maybe a skull basher/abyssal. In general, I'd say Bristles core items are treads and BKB. 3 subcategories of situational, damage, tank, and utility, with some overlap, but bristles build depends on the game. That's my opinion. I agree, like many heroes, Bristleback offers a variety of ways to play. Sadly, a guide can't encompass them all nor provide the option for the players. When players subscribe to a guide, they want to know the conventional way that he's played, that's up to interpretation and sadly this is the way we interpret with our best attempt to provide alternative items for key scenarios or potential ways Bristleback can be served up in a game. What you're suggesting is a bit too elaborate for the project's intention, on top of that, I don't see as much variability in higher-leveled matches. Right now, the guide hosts about 13 items in Situational, Extension and Luxury Items; which is a spectrum of what you're suggesting at different levels of purchasing power/time in the game. If I break it down to your suggestion, then there is no direction for players, just purely choices/options. I understand that you need some direction to give players, but what I want is first off, Blade mail should ONLY EVER be bought against huskar to counter life break. Never otherwise. Second, generally, Bristle needs some kind of strength/health item, and some armor item. Placing AC as core, not my personal favorite choice. Its very good, lots of armor, the debuff to enemies, its not bad by any stretch. But something like an Armlet Mek combo is amazing on bristle, and going mek to give you essentially 250 more EHP on top of the decent armor it and armlet give you. I'd almost insist you put that in, because it is strong, especially if you mind your health in a fight. But something I would add is that if you are going for an AC, don't get a medallion. You don't need it. Crest for the miss chance, if you want to go the whole way, but that can be very greedy. I'd also say butterfly as a 5-6 slot item is good, providing strong attack speed, armor, damage, and the best evasion in the game. Lastly, I think getting a wand is overkill, naked stick and a basilius are the same cost and are more reliable, plus the armor and damage from basilius are slightly better. I'd love to keep talking, I use the guides you do regularly, and I truly appreciate what you do.
I'll take another look tomorrow at work.
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On June 04 2015 06:50 Pyromaniacal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2015 21:18 Torte de Lini wrote:On June 03 2015 21:12 Pyromaniacal wrote:
I, after looking over the bristle build, somewhat disagree. Bristle is a hero played in too many different ways to have a general build. In a tanky build, going something like vanguard into ac into skadi is viable, but a carry bristle may do better with armlet mek into heart. Armlet is one of the best bristle items, providing the strength of a Reaver, damage of a Sacred Relic, and some health and armor to boot. All for less than either, with really good buildup. A more of a utilityback may buy medallion/solar crest into a Shivas into maybe a skull basher/abyssal. In general, I'd say Bristles core items are treads and BKB. 3 subcategories of situational, damage, tank, and utility, with some overlap, but bristles build depends on the game. That's my opinion. I agree, like many heroes, Bristleback offers a variety of ways to play. Sadly, a guide can't encompass them all nor provide the option for the players. When players subscribe to a guide, they want to know the conventional way that he's played, that's up to interpretation and sadly this is the way we interpret with our best attempt to provide alternative items for key scenarios or potential ways Bristleback can be served up in a game. What you're suggesting is a bit too elaborate for the project's intention, on top of that, I don't see as much variability in higher-leveled matches. Right now, the guide hosts about 13 items in Situational, Extension and Luxury Items; which is a spectrum of what you're suggesting at different levels of purchasing power/time in the game. If I break it down to your suggestion, then there is no direction for players, just purely choices/options. I understand that you need some direction to give players, but what I want is first off, Blade mail should ONLY EVER be bought against huskar to counter life break. Never otherwise. Second, generally, Bristle needs some kind of strength/health item, and some armor item. Placing AC as core, not my personal favorite choice. Its very good, lots of armor, the debuff to enemies, its not bad by any stretch. But something like an Armlet Mek combo is amazing on bristle, and going mek to give you essentially 250 more EHP on top of the decent armor it and armlet give you. I'd almost insist you put that in, because it is strong, especially if you mind your health in a fight. But something I would add is that if you are going for an AC, don't get a medallion. You don't need it. Crest for the miss chance, if you want to go the whole way, but that can be very greedy. I'd also say butterfly as a 5-6 slot item is good, providing strong attack speed, armor, damage, and the best evasion in the game. Lastly, I think getting a wand is overkill, naked stick and a basilius are the same cost and are more reliable, plus the armor and damage from basilius are slightly better. I'd love to keep talking, I use the guides you do regularly, and I truly appreciate what you do.
I'm seeing more Blade Mail on Bristle than Armlet or Mekansm.
http://www.dotabuff.com/players/133129603/matches?hero=bristleback
I avoided Mekansm on Bristleback because of the mana cost raised a few patches ago and also because the new cooldown in this recent patch. To add, I feel Bristleback suffers from mana issues; something I don't want to amplify with purchasing Mekansm.
I agree on the validity of Armlet, it just has nowhere to be fitted in and it's not seen a lot at the higher levels regardless.
For Magic Stick/Basilius. Isn't that more expensive than just full Magic Wand? We try to keep the builds either going full Magic Wand or skip it entirely to promote the validity in spending that little extra (and with 6.84; it's all the more justified/easier).
I think Assualt Cuirass lines up perfectly with what Bristleback can do offensively and what he offers on a team-aspect. I would say your build plays at a different timing than the one the guide suggests. Meka + Armlet sounds a lot earlier than BKB/AC
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On June 03 2015 23:10 Velzi wrote:
For bristleback i would move shivas and HH to situational and remove blademail completely (imo its garbage on bb). There is no reason to have both basher and abyssal somewhere, just remove basher. MKB should be situational too, u dont need it every game. Theres no lifesteal anywhere, satanic aint that bad honestly. Skadi could be mentioned as well (luxury i guess). so what i would have keep starting,early game and core same except no ac and rest:
situational: Solar Crest, CG, Pipe (defensive) / HH, MKB (offensive)
extension: AC/Shiva, HoT/Skadi
Luxury: Satanic, Abyssal, MS, BoT 2
So the idea is u start by building ur core first, then get situational item like HH/CG/Pipe if needed, then 2 extension items (most of the time it should be AC+HoT imo) and after that Luxury items, unless MKB/Solar Crest is needed.
thoughts?
E: i dont really know where SnY stands as pub bb, u have to play it as solo offlaner/ dual offlaner 99% of the time and as offlaner i would rather have something else than SnY.
S&Y still bought on a professional level:
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1518278672
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1517166932
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1515852401
NIP
MVP
RAVE
We can remove Blademail.
We'll remove Basher
Halberd, especially in this meta, is very good and I feel is akin to its validity with Centaur Warrunner.
Heart is still the go-to for Bristleback I would say.
Need to be careful of not overflowing the guide with items. If we move 3 more items to Situational, that'll be 4 lines of items; making it less clear what is ultimately situational.
A guide can't be all encompassing sadly; otherwise it loses its value of direction over option and ultimately losing its follower.
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I have to go to bed, I have work tomorrow.
Ultimately, I removed some items to lessen the load. It also allows room for 1-2 more items in Situational and Extension/Luxury Items.
Pyromanical's build sounds like a completely different way of playing Bristleback that would require another guide if I saw it played more often.
Velzi/Bluemoon arguments are strong; maybe we can just close down Luxury Items and move MKB to Situational with HH and then add Skadi to Extension Items. I personally feel MKB should stay as Ext./Luxury due to price and small oomph in attack speed. Not sure how popular Butterfly is also.
Belisarius: Could probably rearrange Phantom Lancer to just opt out of Luxury Items
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SoCal8933 Posts
honestly i would add octarine to luxury. the CDR is great for building warpath stacks faster and the spell vamp on quills is actually hilarious if you're getting focused.
i wouldn't shut down luxury items, partly for that reason, but it is nice to have BoTs and an mkb on there for any heroes that pick up evasion.
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On June 04 2015 07:27 Torte de Lini wrote:
I have to go to bed, I have work tomorrow.
Ultimately, I removed some items to lessen the load. It also allows room for 1-2 more items in Situational and Extension/Luxury Items.
Pyromanical's build sounds like a completely different way of playing Bristleback that would require another guide if I saw it played more often.
Velzi/Bluemoon arguments are strong; maybe we can just close down Luxury Items and move MKB to Situational with HH and then add Skadi to Extension Items. I personally feel MKB should stay as Ext./Luxury due to price and small oomph in attack speed. Not sure how popular Butterfly is also.
Belisarius: Could probably rearrange Phantom Lancer to just opt out of Luxury Items
Armlet Mek is a build I generally use if I'm in more of a carry position, I've gotten kills in lane, and am in a good position to gank. Sure, your mana goes to waste slightly faster, but since your ganking, you can get a skadi or sheep or what the game demands slightly faster to alleviate some of the mana problem. If I'm in more of a tanking role, I'll go not for armlet mek but stack some armor and mix it with health to get as much EHP as I can.
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United States47024 Posts
Armlet and Mek are great items, they're just not items I would recommend for a guide aimed at players who will just follow the items religiously every game.
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United States312 Posts
Hello, I've been playing DotA since around 2014, and I learned about hero guides completely by accident, while randomly clicking on stuff in the client. I somehow found my way to the hero build guide, where I noticed a familiar name: Torte De Lini. I recognized the name as a prominent poster on TeamLiquid.net (the main site from which LiquidDotA.com split off from), the home of Starcraft e-sports outside of South Korea.
One thing that TL.net encourages is standard play, which is playing properly without relying on gimmicks or other cheap tricks to try and catch your opponent off guard. The reason for this is that if you rely too much on gimmicky play, the surprise factor will be gone as it has become your standard play. On the flip side, if you know how to play properly, you can go for gimmicks every now and then to catch people off guard and score a free win here and there.
Anyway, I just came here to say thanks for your hard work.
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On June 04 2015 09:03 BluemoonSC wrote:
honestly i would add octarine to luxury. the CDR is great for building warpath stacks faster and the spell vamp on quills is actually hilarious if you're getting focused.
i wouldn't shut down luxury items, partly for that reason, but it is nice to have BoTs and an mkb on there for any heroes that pick up evasion.
I feel Octarine continues to be a gimmick for Bristleback.
On June 04 2015 09:20 Pyromaniacal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2015 07:27 Torte de Lini wrote:
I have to go to bed, I have work tomorrow.
Ultimately, I removed some items to lessen the load. It also allows room for 1-2 more items in Situational and Extension/Luxury Items.
Pyromanical's build sounds like a completely different way of playing Bristleback that would require another guide if I saw it played more often.
Velzi/Bluemoon arguments are strong; maybe we can just close down Luxury Items and move MKB to Situational with HH and then add Skadi to Extension Items. I personally feel MKB should stay as Ext./Luxury due to price and small oomph in attack speed. Not sure how popular Butterfly is also.
Belisarius: Could probably rearrange Phantom Lancer to just opt out of Luxury Items Armlet Mek is a build I generally use if I'm in more of a carry position, I've gotten kills in lane, and am in a good position to gank. Sure, your mana goes to waste slightly faster, but since your ganking, you can get a skadi or sheep or what the game demands slightly faster to alleviate some of the mana problem. If I'm in more of a tanking role, I'll go not for armlet mek but stack some armor and mix it with health to get as much EHP as I can.
It's really starting to sound like a completely different build. You can definitely make the hero build for this and I think it'd fetch some popularity
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On June 04 2015 15:30 Eternal Dalek wrote:
Hello, I've been playing DotA since around 2014, and I learned about hero guides completely by accident, while randomly clicking on stuff in the client. I somehow found my way to the hero build guide, where I noticed a familiar name: Torte De Lini. I recognized the name as a prominent poster on TeamLiquid.net (the main site from which LiquidDotA.com split off from), the home of Starcraft e-sports outside of South Korea.
One thing that TL.net encourages is standard play, which is playing properly without relying on gimmicks or other cheap tricks to try and catch your opponent off guard. The reason for this is that if you rely too much on gimmicky play, the surprise factor will be gone as it has become your standard play. On the flip side, if you know how to play properly, you can go for gimmicks every now and then to catch people off guard and score a free win here and there.
Anyway, I just came here to say thanks for your hard work.
Many thank yous, as you can see, it's a real team effort here as I get a lot of corrections, suggestions and feedback.
I'm glad to see it's helped you a lot!
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SoCal8933 Posts
On June 04 2015 17:00 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2015 09:03 BluemoonSC wrote:
honestly i would add octarine to luxury. the CDR is great for building warpath stacks faster and the spell vamp on quills is actually hilarious if you're getting focused.
i wouldn't shut down luxury items, partly for that reason, but it is nice to have BoTs and an mkb on there for any heroes that pick up evasion. I feel Octarine continues to be a gimmick for Bristleback.
yes and no. its a gimmick because you get it when you're ahead and you're unkillable, hence luxury. no because at the same time its actually ridiculous how long you can stay alive with the lifesteal from your quill sprays.
if you don't get focused, you run around with max stacks of warpath and if you do get focused you turn your back and never die.
I feel like the same argument could be made for bounty hunter dagon + eblade. its gimmicky but it works because its legit.
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820,000+ growth in under a week. 80 million in about 2 days.
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 Shadow Demon
New Skill Build: Q W E E E R E W W W R Q Q Q (1. Shadow Poison 2. Soul Catcher 3. Disruption)
Added Veil of Discord to Extension Items
Added Glimmer Cape to Situational Items
Moved Eul's Scepter of Divinity to Extension Items
Removed Shiva's Guard
Naga Siren (Lane)
Naga Siren (Middle)
Added Octarine Core to Extension Items
 Bristleback
Added Ring of Basilius to Early Game
Moved Abyssal Blade to Extension Items
Moved Monkey King Bar to Luxury Items
Removed Blade Mail
Removed Shiva's Guard
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Been playing a few more games with him and I agree that Ring of Basi would be a nice touch throughout. Though I'm fearful it delays your core by too much.
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SoCal8933 Posts
On June 06 2015 07:38 Torte de Lini wrote:
Been playing a few more games with him and I agree that Ring of Basi would be a nice touch throughout. Though I'm fearful it delays your core by too much.
basi stick treads is how you keep your mana up
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On June 06 2015 09:15 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2015 07:38 Torte de Lini wrote:
Been playing a few more games with him and I agree that Ring of Basi would be a nice touch throughout. Though I'm fearful it delays your core by too much. basi stick treads is how you keep your mana up
yep, just need to test it.
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Bristleback's stat growth makes basilius an interesting item for him. His starting int is low but he has one of the highest int growths for a non-int hero while having poor str/agi gain to make up for it. Depending on the stat items that you have basilius is going to be less efficient than a sage's mask around level 5 (33 int is when sage's mask is more effective than a RoB aside from the armor/damage parts). The problem is that a sage's mask doesn't really build into anything that's particularly great for him aside from a basilius. Of course Vlad's can be great but the reason heart is so good on BB is that he gets the % bonus to his EHP that no other hero can really do besides Spectre. AC is an excellent item on him, but it doesn't solve the primary issues BB has which is low raw HP. His mana issues are resolved just by getting higher levels, mek should probably be avoided most of the time because by the time he has the mana to use it it's becoming less and less effective.
Occasionally I would play around with disassembling basilius into a medallion, I could never find a good use and even that was mainly just to do roshan faster and free inventory space.
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I think Bristle's best non-Basilius mask options are Urn and Solar Crest.
However, I think completing Basilius (and possibly disassembling for Solar Crest) is better than a quick Urn in a dual lane environment, thanks to the aura.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/AzyGdTc.png)
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