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On March 26 2015 04:49 Logo wrote:
Phoenix split guide isn't useful either. The only difference is whether or not you buy a RoP at the beginning, but the middle guide still recommends tranquil boots first so there's no reason to not go to lane with the RoP.
Though my understanding was torte doesn't like to compress guides because you just straight up lose whomever is subbed to them. If that's the case I'd say just leave 1 WR guide because she seems like she could compress back into one guide at some point either by gaining popularity in a single lane role or by just going straight up DPS items regardless of position (i.e. mael agh's from offlane).
Correct. I usually just change a guide to a more suited version (see Legion Commander Jungle -> Lane).
So for guides like Phantom Lancer which have been bottom of the barrel for too many months, I don't mind axeing. For other guides, despite their unpopularity in more recent times, I tend to keep on, especially if the more valid guide (Lane Earth Spirit for example). Is not getting the popularity it needs.
If I had the energy, I could effectively swap the more popular inaccurate guide to the right version (for example: AA Mid is very popular, I can switch that to be a Lane version and make the less popular one the mid version).
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On March 26 2015 04:40 TheYango wrote:
Heroes with split guides right now: Alch, AA, Axe, Beastmaster, BS, Brew, Doom, DK, Earth Spirit, ET, Ember, Gyro, Kunkka, LC, Leshrac, Lifestealer, Lina, LD, Lycan, Naga, Nyx, PL, Phoenix, Shadow Shaman, Silencer, Skywrath, Slark, Sniper, Tiny, Troll, Tusk, Ursa, Warlock, Weaver
AA - remove mid (mid hasn't been suitable for him for a while, as much as I like playing it)
Earth - remove mid (hasn't been a mid hero really since the remake, is pretty much exclusively support and sometimes offlane)
ET - remove mid (repeated Spirit nerfs made this a shitty mid hero because Spirit doesn't do enough damage to make pressure against anyone--mostly support or offlane now)
PL - remove mid, as you mentioned
Sniper/Troll you can combine the guides because how you pick items/skills don't differ by enough between mid and safe lane. Sniper should be max Shrapnel, then Take Aim, with Headshot last in both cases.
Just as you like AA Middle, I love ET Middle. I've actually have almost consistent success running mid even with the weakened Spirit.
Earth Spirit Mid is the similar situation with Skywrath Middle, very popular guides, very dated in terms of roles.
Phantom Lancer will be removed and opted for another guide.
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I mean u can change names right since u update the names by patchnumber
so just rename the mid one to lane and lane one to mid, fix the items appropriately, then delete the extraneous one
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On March 26 2015 05:37 tehh4ck3r wrote:
PL lane guide should max doppelganger over phantom rush i think. max doppel lets you farm the jungle ridiculously fast especially compared to phantom rush
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1339046394
What do you think of this build?
I will update the guide to max Doppelganger with 1 point in Charge
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On March 26 2015 06:55 Sn0_Man wrote:
I mean u can change names right since u update the names by patchnumber
so just rename the mid one to lane and lane one to mid, fix the items appropriately, then delete the extraneous one
Yes, that is my thought as well. It won't be applicable to all (as they both have respectable numbers, for some others, I will look into axing them if I find the build overall negligible/unplayable). For certain guides, even though they are currently unpopular in that role, I'm opting to just leave them (Skywrath Mage/Earth Spirit Middle for example).
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well u should have done it to Lifestealer (jungle) long ago but i do understand the reticence to touch that guide. "dont fix what aint broken" etc etc considering its so widely subscribed for whatever reason on a hero that's literally unplayable shit these days.
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So as we are seeing, there is a lot of diverse numbers mixed between two versions of the guides. If I swap them, I may alienate an equal amount of people of both sides.
To consider, however, that both guides are among the top 10 ranked, but spooking some people may cause a drop in numbers.
It's all a bit political to be frank. What is good to see is that the graphs I have on my excel sheet show a growth of newer guides starting to topple current dated versions of guides, but it happens over a period of 6 to 8 months so long as patches do not alter anything.
So for some multiple guides, I can swap them or flat out delete some, but for others; they are stuck in place as Sn0_Man says:
On March 26 2015 06:58 Sn0_Man wrote:
well u should have done it to Lifestealer (jungle) long ago but i do understand the reticence to touch that guide. "dont fix what aint broken" etc etc considering its so widely subscribed for whatever reason on a hero that's literally unplayable shit these days.
Very accurate, though admittedly, I still jungle with Lifestealer.
For a lot of heroes right now also, they are just not chosen often due to this meta, so changing them drastically when they are not in popularity is an unneeded effort to shake a system that is, for the most part, working.
On that note:
- Phantom Lancer - Middle will be deleted
- Phantom Lancer - Lane will have an updated skill build
- Sniper dual-build (MoM + Core) will be consolidated to one (Mask of Madness build)
- Tusk Middle build will be deleted
- Add Blink Dagger to Situational Items for Sven
- Skywrath Mage build will be swapped, it's been growing very slowly in numbers for the past year with other guides overtaking its original third-place spot. This will serve as a test to see how it affects growth in each guide
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On March 26 2015 05:37 tehh4ck3r wrote:
PL lane guide should max doppelganger over phantom rush i think. max doppel lets you farm the jungle ridiculously fast especially compared to phantom rush
I don't really think 1 extra illusion hitting for 20% damage makes that much of a difference in farm speed.
It's biggest benefit to farm speed is probably breaking down trees but you don't really need rank 4 for that.
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On March 26 2015 07:06 Jaeger wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2015 05:37 tehh4ck3r wrote:
PL lane guide should max doppelganger over phantom rush i think. max doppel lets you farm the jungle ridiculously fast especially compared to phantom rush I don't really think 1 extra illusion hitting for 20% damage makes that much of a difference in farm speed. It's biggest benefit to farm speed is probably breaking down trees but you don't really need rank 4 for that.
It makes the jungle more sustainable early on as well (tank with the 0% dmg one) and once you get diffusal it's a lot more damage. The two illusions also have the chance to spawn more illusions so there's that too.
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United States47024 Posts
You max Doppel over Phantom Rush not for farming speed but because after Lance it's the best combat skill. It generates illusions, moves you, purges you, phases you out for 1 second, the skill is just insanely good in fights as long as you have enough stats/damage to make up for the fact that it provides none.
Maxing Phantom Rush straight-up is pretty situational IMO, usually I'd get 1-2 ranks early then get some stat points before taking the remaining ranks. Like, leveling definitely is useful, it's just sometimes it doesn't really do enough when you don't need more chasing/engaging power beyond DIffu + Skadi.
I said this when the hero came out, but you actually kinda do want to get some midgame points of Stats on that hero. While both Doppel and Phantom Rush are good, they are only good when you already have enough stats, so like level 8-10 when you don't have a major item, they're not really all that appealing. This is actually catching on in pro games, as there have been games recently where players are getting 2-4 points of Stats before maxing the other skills. There's also the EE game where he went 4-1-1 + max Stats over Doppel/Phantom Rush, but lets not go there.
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 Warlock (Middle)
Removed Bottle
Removed Arcane Boots
Added Boots of Speed to Early Game
rearranged item tab sections
Added Rod of Atos to Situational Items
Warlock (Lane)
New Build: W Q W Q W R W E E E R E Q Q R (1. Shadow Word 2. Upheaval 3. Fatal Bonds)
Removed Arcane Boots
Added Phase Boots to Core Items
Added Rod of Atos of Situational Items
 Sven
Added Blink Dagger to Situational Items
 Sniper (Middle)
New Skill Build: Q W Q E Q R Q E E E R W W W R (1. Shrapnel 2. Take Aim 3. Headshot)
Removed Core Items Tab
Removed Power Treads
Removed Satanic
Moved Manta Style to Situational Items
Added Sange & Yasha to Core Items
Removed Maelstrom
Sniper (Lane)
New Skill Build: Q W Q E Q R Q E E E R W W W R (1. Shrapnel 2. Take Aim 3. Headshot)
Removed Core Items Tab
Removed Power Treads
Removed Satanic
Moved Manta Style to Situational Items
Added Sange & Yasha to Core Items
Removed Maelstrom
 Phantom Lancer
New Skill Build: Q W Q E Q R Q W W W R E E E R (1. Phantom Lance 2. Doppelganger 3. Phantom Rush)
 Tusk
Removed Orb of Venom
Added Blink Dagger to Situational Items
Removed Shadow Blade
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United States47024 Posts
You get Phantom Rush at 2 and Doppel at 4, you just max Doppel first.
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On March 27 2015 00:20 TheYango wrote:
You get Phantom Rush at 2 and Doppel at 4, you just max Doppel first.
I would say that's more situational than definitive.
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United States47024 Posts
You're more likely to use Phantom Rush at 2. It's really unlikely in normal scenarios that you actually really use Doppel for anything at level 2.
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On March 26 2015 07:06 Jaeger wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2015 05:37 tehh4ck3r wrote:
PL lane guide should max doppelganger over phantom rush i think. max doppel lets you farm the jungle ridiculously fast especially compared to phantom rush I don't really think 1 extra illusion hitting for 20% damage makes that much of a difference in farm speed. It's biggest benefit to farm speed is probably breaking down trees but you don't really need rank 4 for that.
With rank 4 you can use it as a pseudo-blink to traverse between camps faster; and once you have level 6 your illusions can spawn other illusions (even the 0 damage one)
Edit: I generally prefer taking rush at level 2, it makes early kill attempts easier and its nice to have when farming the lane- you can stay back from the wave a fair amount but still be able to get last hits
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Since December 1st Numbers and Tally:
- Skywrath Mage (Middle) Growth:
Growth: 621,211 629,205 630,163 636,747 645,462 654,654 662,532 663,695 670,751 678,877
- Skywrath Mage (Lane) Growth:
Growth: 4984 26327 29248 47227 70757 91535 109234 111639 126290 144120
Deleted Guides Final Tally and Growth:
- Tusk (Middle):
1. Created: June 11th, 2014
2. Final Tally: 1,041
3. Growth: 649 681 690 761 801 849 913 926 973 1,008 1,041
4. + Show Spoiler [Final Image] +
- Phantom Lancer (Middle):
1. Created: September 27th, 2014
2. Final Tally: 933
3. Growth: 128 242 322 370 465 504 519 594 646 691 760 775 840 890 933
4. + Show Spoiler [Final Image] +
144 guides left.
On October 29 2013 18:05 Torte de Lini wrote:
We just hit 3 million subscriptions! Lifestealer, Nyx and Leshrac are amongst the most popular with Skywrath Mage as 4th!
Nostalgia
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/eg6Jwgu.png)
Stats no longer fit on one page, very annoying.
About 119kb in size.
(see previous post for full patch changes and figures)
What data would you guys like to see? I'm having trouble figuring out what more information could I provide that is useful and interesting?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NbhGfPv.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fnOxPsJ.png)
