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What system do you have now? How long to do intend to keep this system for?
It's ~$280 vs $450 in Canada, so a small premium compared to what it is in the states at this time.
For SC2 it doesn't matter which he gets. For Dota2, it also doesn't really matter either
Still gonna go with the 3700X at that budget. When the next generation of consoles come out they'll eventually be used if any games need the cores. https://ca.pcpartpicker.com/list/63K4Ft
Only change I made was to change the memory to 3600 cl16 kit since it's very cheap for what you get. With memory/IF frequency scaling mattering more the IMC/IF on the 3700X could also add up to a significant difference.
On August 25 2019 04:07 Lmui wrote: Well since we can't seem to agree:
@Archcan
What system do you have now? How long to do intend to keep this system for?
It's ~$280 vs $450 in Canada, so a small premium compared to what it is in the states at this time.
For SC2 it doesn't matter which he gets. For Dota2, it also doesn't really matter either
Still gonna go with the 3700X at that budget. When the next generation of consoles come out they'll eventually be used if any games need the cores. https://ca.pcpartpicker.com/list/63K4Ft
Only change I made was to change the memory to 3600 cl16 kit since it's very cheap for what you get. With memory/IF frequency scaling mattering more the IMC/IF on the 3700X could also add up to a significant difference.
My current system is as follows.
I5-4460, 4 core 3.2 GHZ GTX 970 16gbs of DDR 3 Ram, not sure of MHZ. Windows 7.
On August 25 2019 04:07 Lmui wrote: Well since we can't seem to agree:
@Archcan
What system do you have now? How long to do intend to keep this system for?
It's ~$280 vs $450 in Canada, so a small premium compared to what it is in the states at this time.
For SC2 it doesn't matter which he gets. For Dota2, it also doesn't really matter either
Still gonna go with the 3700X at that budget. When the next generation of consoles come out they'll eventually be used if any games need the cores. https://ca.pcpartpicker.com/list/63K4Ft
Only change I made was to change the memory to 3600 cl16 kit since it's very cheap for what you get. With memory/IF frequency scaling mattering more the IMC/IF on the 3700X could also add up to a significant difference.
My current system is as follows.
I5-4460, 4 core 3.2 GHZ GTX 970 16gbs of DDR 3 Ram, not sure of MHZ. Windows 7.
The Tomahawk still seems to work for most people - though you should be aware of the thread below: I still don't really have a good sense of any of the b450 motherboards - they generally work, but some people run into frustrating problems with them for no apparent reason: https://www.reddit.com/r/MSI_Gaming/comments/ce3ift/msi_b450_tomahawk_update/
You may want to consider a X570 board if you don't want to deal with the hassle, but it's a pretty big jump in cost/power consumption.
Same caveats as before: 1. Cooler - can add a cooler for lower noise if the stock one bothers you 2. Memory - can go to 32gb, but 16gb of 3600cl18 memory might be a better compromise if you're just gaming 3. Storage- I chose a fast 1tb SSD, but you're free to downsize it and get a large HDD, or get a larger SSD if you need more storage, or a smaller SSD if you need less storage 4. Case - completely personal. I like an understated clean case like the fractal design define series cases, but others want windows/RGB etc.
I'm still strongly on the boat that if you can afford it, the 3700X is a better bet over the next 7 or years that the next-gen consoles are out as compared to the 3600. The 3600 is an insane value pick for sure, but the 3700X exists for a reason.
On August 25 2019 04:07 Lmui wrote: Well since we can't seem to agree:
@Archcan
What system do you have now? How long to do intend to keep this system for?
It's ~$280 vs $450 in Canada, so a small premium compared to what it is in the states at this time.
For SC2 it doesn't matter which he gets. For Dota2, it also doesn't really matter either
Still gonna go with the 3700X at that budget. When the next generation of consoles come out they'll eventually be used if any games need the cores. https://ca.pcpartpicker.com/list/63K4Ft
Only change I made was to change the memory to 3600 cl16 kit since it's very cheap for what you get. With memory/IF frequency scaling mattering more the IMC/IF on the 3700X could also add up to a significant difference.
My current system is as follows.
I5-4460, 4 core 3.2 GHZ GTX 970 16gbs of DDR 3 Ram, not sure of MHZ. Windows 7.
The Tomahawk still seems to work for most people - though you should be aware of the thread below: I still don't really have a good sense of any of the b450 motherboards - they generally work, but some people run into frustrating problems with them for no apparent reason: https://www.reddit.com/r/MSI_Gaming/comments/ce3ift/msi_b450_tomahawk_update/
You may want to consider a X570 board if you don't want to deal with the hassle, but it's a pretty big jump in cost/power consumption.
Same caveats as before: 1. Cooler - can add a cooler for lower noise if the stock one bothers you 2. Memory - can go to 32gb, but 16gb of 3600cl18 memory might be a better compromise if you're just gaming 3. Storage- I chose a fast 1tb SSD, but you're free to downsize it and get a large HDD, or get a larger SSD if you need more storage, or a smaller SSD if you need less storage 4. Case - completely personal. I like an understated clean case like the fractal design define series cases, but others want windows/RGB etc.
I'm still strongly on the boat that if you can afford it, the 3700X is a better bet over the next 7 or years that the next-gen consoles are out as compared to the 3600. The 3600 is an insane value pick for sure, but the 3700X exists for a reason.
Do you think I should add a larger PSU? As whatever card I upgrade to in the future may need more than 550W. Or since cards are becoming more efficient I shouldn't be concerned?
On August 25 2019 04:07 Lmui wrote: Well since we can't seem to agree:
@Archcan
What system do you have now? How long to do intend to keep this system for?
It's ~$280 vs $450 in Canada, so a small premium compared to what it is in the states at this time.
For SC2 it doesn't matter which he gets. For Dota2, it also doesn't really matter either
Still gonna go with the 3700X at that budget. When the next generation of consoles come out they'll eventually be used if any games need the cores. https://ca.pcpartpicker.com/list/63K4Ft
Only change I made was to change the memory to 3600 cl16 kit since it's very cheap for what you get. With memory/IF frequency scaling mattering more the IMC/IF on the 3700X could also add up to a significant difference.
My current system is as follows.
I5-4460, 4 core 3.2 GHZ GTX 970 16gbs of DDR 3 Ram, not sure of MHZ. Windows 7.
The Tomahawk still seems to work for most people - though you should be aware of the thread below: I still don't really have a good sense of any of the b450 motherboards - they generally work, but some people run into frustrating problems with them for no apparent reason: https://www.reddit.com/r/MSI_Gaming/comments/ce3ift/msi_b450_tomahawk_update/
You may want to consider a X570 board if you don't want to deal with the hassle, but it's a pretty big jump in cost/power consumption.
Same caveats as before: 1. Cooler - can add a cooler for lower noise if the stock one bothers you 2. Memory - can go to 32gb, but 16gb of 3600cl18 memory might be a better compromise if you're just gaming 3. Storage- I chose a fast 1tb SSD, but you're free to downsize it and get a large HDD, or get a larger SSD if you need more storage, or a smaller SSD if you need less storage 4. Case - completely personal. I like an understated clean case like the fractal design define series cases, but others want windows/RGB etc.
I'm still strongly on the boat that if you can afford it, the 3700X is a better bet over the next 7 or years that the next-gen consoles are out as compared to the 3600. The 3600 is an insane value pick for sure, but the 3700X exists for a reason.
Do you think I should add a larger PSU? As whatever card I upgrade to in the future may need more than 550W. Or since cards are becoming more efficient I shouldn't be concerned?
It's pretty unlikely that you'll need a larger PSU. Even with a 105W CPU, 300W GPU, and 50W between fans/mobo/RAM/SSDs(It won't reach this), you're barely at 80% of the 550W PSU.
This review is for a 250W GPU, but even if you add 50w to all the numbers, it doesn't change the conclusion. As you're not intending to overclock, 550W should be enough. You can add a bit of money and get a 650W, but it'll be wasted in pretty much all cases
Everything copped but the PSU and GFX card. I'll try to cop that when I get some money (but I should be okay with integrated for the time being). If I hadn't lost my job last week, I'd have gotten that as well. I'm hoping by the end of September, something else comes along, but until then...
On August 30 2019 08:01 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: Everything copped but the PSU and GFX card. I'll try to cop that when I get some money (but I should be okay with integrated for the time being). If I hadn't lost my job last week, I'd have gotten that as well. I'm hoping by the end of September, something else comes along, but until then...
You'll need a GPU, any GPU - the Ryzen 3xxx doesn't come with an integrated GPU so it's not really usable without it.
On August 30 2019 08:01 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: Everything copped but the PSU and GFX card. I'll try to cop that when I get some money (but I should be okay with integrated for the time being). If I hadn't lost my job last week, I'd have gotten that as well. I'm hoping by the end of September, something else comes along, but until then...
You'll need a GPU, any GPU - the Ryzen 3xxx doesn't come with an integrated GPU so it's not really usable without it.
So why do I have display port and hdmi on my mobo? I just wanna see if I need to get a BIOS update for the board. I've downloaded the relevant stuff from Asus already.
Additionally I purchased: Cooler: PCCooler D56-A PSU: bequiet! Dark Power 550w (I looked up my Tt PSU and bought this for peace of mind)
Everything worked out of the box, no RMA's, didn't even need to flash the BIOS (see below). Enabled XMP for 3200 Ram.
I haven't had much time to mess around with the build yet or attempt any substantial OC, but I played a bit of Rimworld with my brother last night and it seemed to handle the number of pawns, etc, much better than the old Phenom II (noticeably less chugging/stuttering during simulation).
As for people concerned about the reported issues with B450 and Ryzen 3000s -
I was really anxious about this and the whole BIOS flashback process, but I decided to go for it. When I got my mobo (ordered best price from Office Max of all places) there was an orange sticker on the box saying "AMD Ryzen 3000 Ready." Per the documentation that came with my CPU this means that the motherboard does NOT need a BIOS update. Since a MAX version of the Carbon was never released, I assume this means the board was flashed by Office Max or MSi before shipment.
If you are super concerned I would purchase either a MAX motherboard (or the equivalent from another brand) or ask the retailer if the box has that orange sticker on it. Orange sticker = you're good to go.
Thanks again all for your help and input. Will post final clock values tonight after I do some tests.
CPU 3 Is my fastest core. You know what they say about 3. :3 <3
You can adjust this software to display each core individually to see performance over whole CPU while gaming (like in Rimworld as that was your concern).
You will also notice how much the GPU bottlenecks(99% load) vs CPU, which will tell you how much in the green you are with the CPU for an eventual GPU upgrade.
They might have another false advertising class action on their hands
That's disappointing. If they had advertised 100mhz lower boost clocks across all parts, no one would be complaining, and the "golden" chips that went above would be pretty highly sought after. The performance of the chips is fine, and I guess any mobo will do for boosting according to his info. Probably should be advertising with minimum/typical boost clocks with a disclaimer or just minimum. It'll be a slap on the wrist though, probably a few million with the majority going to lawyers, the affected people only get a few bucks.
They might have another false advertising class action on their hands
That's disappointing. If they had advertised 100mhz lower boost clocks across all parts, no one would be complaining, and the "golden" chips that went above would be pretty highly sought after. The performance of the chips is fine, and I guess any mobo will do for boosting according to his info. Probably should be advertising with minimum/typical boost clocks with a disclaimer or just minimum. It'll be a slap on the wrist though, probably a few million with the majority going to lawyers, the affected people only get a few bucks.
Exactly that, it's just careless and silly to write a clock speed on the box if 95% of people cannot achieve it even for half a second on one core during a light workload. Zen2 excels at a bunch of stuff and if they just wrote 4.5ghz instead of 4.6 on the box they would still be backordered for 2 months at 110-130% of MSRP.
They literally just settled the bulldozer "8-core" lawsuit this week giving $35 back to buyers going back 8 years.
You can adjust this software to display each core individually to see performance over whole CPU while gaming (like in Rimworld as that was your concern).
You will also notice how much the GPU bottlenecks(99% load) vs CPU, which will tell you how much in the green you are with the CPU for an eventual GPU upgrade.
What is the difference between using built in defaults and manually boosting the clock here? I found with the PBO in Ryzen Master I was clocking ~3.9GHz max across all cores in stress test, but I can force the base clock to 4.2GHz in the bios and it clocks to 4.199GHz across all cores. RAM seems to be stable @ 3333 16-18-18-36 1.35v.
Edit: CPU voltage is set to auto, mobo holds it at 1.36
You can adjust this software to display each core individually to see performance over whole CPU while gaming (like in Rimworld as that was your concern).
You will also notice how much the GPU bottlenecks(99% load) vs CPU, which will tell you how much in the green you are with the CPU for an eventual GPU upgrade.
What is the difference between using built in defaults and manually boosting the clock here? I found with the PBO in Ryzen Master I was clocking ~3.9GHz max across all cores in stress test, but I can force the base clock to 4.2GHz in the bios and it clocks to 4.199GHz across all cores. RAM seems to be stable @ 3333 16-18-18-36 1.35v.
Edit: CPU voltage is set to auto, mobo holds it at 1.36
What is the difference between using built in defaults and manually boosting the clock here?
The default turbo uses different clocks and voltages depending on the way that the load is spread across the CPU which typically results in improved performance and power compared to locking all cores to a single middle-ground - users can't set different clocks&voltage depending on the CPU load profile of the CPU, so they can't directly improve upon the default config.
With how aggressive Ryzen 3000 out-of-the-box turbos are it's easy to actually lose performance by screwing it up. That won't necessarily happen but you'll usually get way more performance benefit from RAM/IF overclocking and tuning (setting primary-secondary-tertiary timings by hand even with tools like "ryzen dram calculator") than you will with any kind of possible CPU core overclock.
I found with the PBO in Ryzen Master
PBO is an automatic OC tool, i wouldn't recommend using it.
but I can force the base clock to 4.2GHz in the bios
This is unlikely to use the right voltage with motherboard auto-volt. If it's too low then it may not crash, instead downclocking invisibly and underperforming so actually ending up with worse performance than 4.0 or 4.1ghz lock. If it's too high, power & longevity of the CPU won't be as good. If you're running anything but defaults i would always recommend manually tuning the voltages as mobo's can be inconsistent and even unsafe at times.
With the 3600 max out-of-the-box clock being 4.2ghz you may actually be able to lock that safely on all cores; it's not like the 3900x which is supposed to turbo to 4.6ghz but seriously struggles for even 4.2 - 4.3 on all cores.
------
Atm we're looking at 2++ month back orders on some of the more popular ryzen 3000 chips in the UK/EU with the major stores now selling $100 over MSRP because of it. No CPU's to sell, they haven't been able to clear out the day 1 wave yet.
You can adjust this software to display each core individually to see performance over whole CPU while gaming (like in Rimworld as that was your concern).
You will also notice how much the GPU bottlenecks(99% load) vs CPU, which will tell you how much in the green you are with the CPU for an eventual GPU upgrade.
What is the difference between using built in defaults and manually boosting the clock here? I found with the PBO in Ryzen Master I was clocking ~3.9GHz max across all cores in stress test, but I can force the base clock to 4.2GHz in the bios and it clocks to 4.199GHz across all cores. RAM seems to be stable @ 3333 16-18-18-36 1.35v.
Edit: CPU voltage is set to auto, mobo holds it at 1.36
What is the difference between using built in defaults and manually boosting the clock here?
The default turbo uses different clocks and voltages depending on the way that the load is spread across the CPU which typically results in improved performance and power compared to locking all cores to a single middle-ground - users can't set different clocks&voltage depending on the CPU load profile of the CPU, so they can't directly improve upon the default config.
With how aggressive Ryzen 3000 out-of-the-box turbos are it's easy to actually lose performance by screwing it up. That won't necessarily happen but you'll usually get way more performance benefit from RAM/IF overclocking and tuning (setting primary-secondary-tertiary timings by hand even with tools like "ryzen dram calculator") than you will with any kind of possible CPU core overclock.
but I can force the base clock to 4.2GHz in the bios
This is unlikely to use the right voltage with motherboard auto-volt. If it's too low then it may not crash, instead downclocking invisibly and underperforming so actually ending up with worse performance than 4.0 or 4.1ghz lock. If it's too high, power & longevity of the CPU won't be as good. If you're running anything but defaults i would always recommend manually tuning the voltages as mobo's can be inconsistent and even unsafe at times.
With the 3600 max out-of-the-box clock being 4.2ghz you may actually be able to lock that safely on all cores; it's not like the 3900x which is supposed to turbo to 4.6ghz but seriously struggles for even 4.2 - 4.3 on all cores.
------
Atm we're looking at 2++ month back orders on some of the more popular ryzen 3000 chips in the UK/EU with the major stores now selling $100 over MSRP because of it. No CPU's to sell, they haven't been able to clear out the day 1 wave yet.
So what am I looking for here? If the voltage isn't high enough you're saying it can impact performance invisibly such that I wouldn't be able to tell via benchmark software? Because I definitely post a higher Cinebench score with the 4.2 vs even a 4.1 setting. How do I know if I have the correct voltage? I have set it as high as 1.4v, but it seems to run stably at the auto setting of 1.36v. Am I limiting potential clock speed by setting the base clock in bios to 4.2? I have seen HWMonitor/Ryzen Master clock higher core speeds across all cores >4.2 by mucking about with Ryzen Master settings but I obviously don't want to hurt the thing.
What's the most efficient way to get the most out of the system? Would it be way more practical to just reset to default BIOS settings?
So what am I looking for here? If the voltage isn't high enough you're saying it can impact performance invisibly such that I wouldn't be able to tell via benchmark software?
You may not be able to tell via monitoring software, but it would affect benchmarks. I'm not sure how to find the best voltage for manual OC's atm.
Out of the box it should do 4.2ghz single core, lower on multi - so if you can maintain your single core benches while raising the multi then it should be an improvement. Probably mainly focus on memory though as bad memory settings will kill performance and motherboards aren't very good at auto memory settings, especially the non-$700 motherboards.
EPT
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