EPTApplefying - Page 2
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Sovano
United States1503 Posts
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pStar
996 Posts
Pay ridiculous prices if you like. | ||
Womwomwom
5930 Posts
On November 29 2012 06:54 Fragile51 wrote: That's not called "ease of use", that's called "limiting user options". I wouldn't call that a good thing... No that is called ease of use. There is no point having user options for the sake of user options. Do I like clicking next a billion times, flooding the start menu with programs who think they're the prima donna, and making sure I don't click in some shitty toolbar in the process? No, Apple basically got it more right than Windows has. You install by dragging it somewhere. You uninstall by deleting the file. It still dumps files in the library folder so you can still mess around shit if you really want to. Microsoft's solution to this problem was basically win key + search. The start menu is useless because every program wants to have its own shitty spot in the menu and if you've got enough programs, its actually hard to find what you want if you smash next all the time to install software. On November 29 2012 07:03 Alryk wrote: Why? From personal experience I can attest that Windows is much simpler than OSX. There are also many articles/essays written about the ease of use of Windows products. Here's a perfect example, you want to write a game in Windows and OSX. To install it in Windows, you use the WIDELY used DirectX software... in OSX you have to re-write the game, and redo a lot of software, and that's it! (I know that the average user doesn't code, but due to this a lot of games in OSX aren't as optimized, which IS a consumer impact) That's not ease of use no matter how you spin it. On November 29 2012 07:03 Alryk wrote: Yes, it's not perfect, but do you see what I'm getting at? I prefer windows to OSX. Part of it is reluctance to learn a new system, but part of it is genuine preference. I see why people like OSX more, but the reasons don't exactly sing to me. I like the taskbar/task manager more than the OSX dock, and I prefer the way that multitasking works slightly in Windows. If you're reluctant to learn new things, then there's your problem. Aero Peek, Snap, and a slightly more robust File Explorer (copy paste is better) are the only things that are really better about Windows 7/8. OSX has very, very good support for stable third party modifications so you can get Aero Snap on it for like $3 (amongst other things like Total Finder). Since Apple enforces actual standards with their software, most third party modifications just slot in unobtrusively. I can explain the merits of OSX if you really want me to. I've done it at least once when someone asked me why I think Mac OS is the better laptop OS. Windows 8 especially is dreadful for desktops and laptops. Oddly enough, a lot of people seem to like the "launchpad" or whatever, when the metro UI is basically the same thing, but gets a lot of flack. (Really a sidenote more than anything) People don't like Launchpad. Launchpad isn't also the home screen that you have to put up with when you smash win key, its just a replacement for the bloated app folder. Also Launchpad opens quite easily with a very easy touchpad gesture (and since Mac trackpads don't suck, it actually works). Edit: I should add that Mac OS is best when its a laptop. When it comes to dekstop, I don't see any point getting it over Windows unless you're going to use the Magic Trackpad or whatever its called. The whole OS hinges on trackpad use and if you can't use trackpads, it gets a lot more annoying to use. Just like Windows 8 with non-tablet devices. | ||
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TangYiChen
Korea (South)195 Posts
If you want to get a MBP, by all means go right on ahead. But you should seriously do some research first. You can get a much faster and more powerful system than a MBP for MUCH cheaper. It really all depends on what you want to do. | ||
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
Best laptop in the market, no doubt. Amazing screen quality, amazing trackpad, amazing formfactor. Did I say amazing track pad? /edit Disclosure: I recently purchased a macbook air for school and its a complete joy to use~ Can't imagine using another laptop. Have a self-built PC for gaming in my "study". Muahahaha Wouldn't want to have a PC in my living room though, too ugly, too many wires and what not. And if you find really nice looking CPU case and screens, well, the price picks up~ | ||
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wussleeQ
United States3130 Posts
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Mr. Nefarious
United States515 Posts
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skyR
Canada13817 Posts
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On November 29 2012 09:57 Mr. Nefarious wrote: Honestly, everyone here is completely ignoring the elephant in the corner. People that actually have degrees in computer science or know how to build computers NEVER buy Apple products. Want a real lesson about Apple? Walk to your nearest major university, walk into any IT or CS classroom and ask the people who do it for a living what they think. You'll either be laughed out of the building or hopefully educated to the point where you wouldn't consider one. Did you even take a look at that magical trackpad? :drooool: | ||
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labbe
Sweden1456 Posts
On November 29 2012 09:57 Mr. Nefarious wrote: Honestly, everyone here is completely ignoring the elephant in the corner. People that actually have degrees in computer science or know how to build computers NEVER buy Apple products. Want a real lesson about Apple? Walk to your nearest major university, walk into any IT or CS classroom and ask the people who do it for a living what they think. You'll either be laughed out of the building or hopefully educated to the point where you wouldn't consider one. Biggest pile of horseshit I've ever read. There are TONS of coders who uses apple products; technical competence is not a factor. | ||
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Sovano
United States1503 Posts
On November 29 2012 09:57 Mr. Nefarious wrote: Honestly, everyone here is completely ignoring the elephant in the corner. People that actually have degrees in computer science or know how to build computers NEVER buy Apple products. Want a real lesson about Apple? Walk to your nearest major university, walk into any IT or CS classroom and ask the people who do it for a living what they think. You'll either be laughed out of the building or hopefully educated to the point where you wouldn't consider one. Not true. As I stated earlier some of my fellow real life tech geek friends own Apple products nonetheless. Even the computer labs at my big university, including the one in my CS department, they still do have Apple products. However, you don't need a degree in CS nor knowledge of building computers to competently know this kind of stuff..ijs. Anyways OP, using Apple as your way of watching stuff on a larger resolution like an Apple TV is fine, but asking to also play SC2 is a bit too much unless you have a big budget or are willing to find different laptops that are not Apple or willing to have a well-built desktop for your gaming needs and a laptop for your entertainment. | ||
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BoZiffer
United States1841 Posts
On November 29 2012 10:30 Sovano wrote: Not true. As I stated earlier some of my fellow real life tech geek friends own Apple products nonetheless. Even the computer labs at my big university, including the one in my CS department, they still do have Apple products. However, you don't need a degree in CS nor knowledge of building computers to competently know this kind of stuff..ijs. Anyways OP, using Apple as your way of watching stuff on a larger resolution like an Apple TV is fine, but asking to also play SC2 is a bit too much unless you have a big budget or are willing to find different laptops that are not Apple or willing to have a well-built desktop for your gaming needs and a laptop for your entertainment. Agree about your points, and others, that CS and IT pro's advocate against Apple. That idea is innately wrong. It boils down to personal preference, budget, and little else. Anything else is just gibberish and noise. About SC2, I have an early 2011 15' Macbook Pro with the lower level graphics processor and I can play SC2 just fine on Medium settings and completely smooth on Low (which I've always preferred) at around 60 FPS. I can always just Boot Camp into Windows if I need to but haven't ever needed for D3 or SC2. Those are the only games I play on computers though so I don't have any experience with anything else. | ||
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PH
United States6173 Posts
The first, and most important one, is that you pay a fuckton more for hardware you could get for much less on a Windows PC. I don't care what anyone says, the pricing on an Apple has yet to be even remotely competitive. The second, and almost as important disadvantage, is that there are still very few third party developers that work on mac in addition to PC. Generally, mac versions of such programs trail behind the PC versions by quite a bit, if you're lucky to find a developer who's willing to support both. This isn't as bad as it was even a few years ago, but I know it can be frustrating. On November 29 2012 06:40 renaissanceMAN wrote: Why? From personal experience I can attest that OSX is much simpler than Windows. There are also many articles/essay written about the ease of use of Apple products. Here's a perfect example, you download two programs in Windows and OSX, to install it in Windows you have to select a designation for the program to end up in, choose installation settings etc... in OSX you simply drag an icon from one place to a folder in a single window and that's it! Why would being able to set exactly where your program installation goes be a disadvantage? Also, having an OS be more and more graphically based is not necessarily a good thing. | ||
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Womwomwom
5930 Posts
A lot of IT professionals now use Apple laptops. Flexible Unix base if you know how to use it, has a walled garden approach to stop employees from fucking up things accidently, has a lot of powerful multitasking options, they're generally built well and have very good interface hardware like the display, keyboard, and trackpad, and warranty work is outsourced to Apple. On November 29 2012 10:52 PH wrote: Apple computers are fine. They have two MAJOR disadvantages, though. The first, and most important one, is that you pay a fuckton more for hardware you could get for much less on a Windows PC. I don't care what anyone says, the pricing on an Apple has yet to be even remotely competitive. Compared to business laptops, yes they are. Unlike business laptops, the base models actually typically pack the best TN screens money can buy. The MacBook Air is also around the same price as good ultrabooks. If you want to save money, buy refurb. Apple refurbs are basically the same as new laptops and come with new warranty IIRC. The second, and almost as important disadvantage, is that there are still very few third party developers that work on mac in addition to PC. Generally, mac versions of such programs trail behind the PC versions by quite a bit, if you're lucky to find a developer who's willing to support both. This isn't as bad as it was even a few years ago, but I know it can be frustrating. What software, besides games and old engineering crap, isn't supported? I can't think of very many at all that are actually useful. Why would being able to set exactly where your program installation goes be a disadvantage? Also, having an OS be more and more graphically based is not necessarily a good thing. Because there is no point to it for the majority of people. The Windows system lets you dump files onto a different hard disk, yes, but installation packages on Windows basically offer nothing useful at all besides packaged adware and flooding your start menu with crap. . What Mac does is that you install by dragging the files to your app folder. You uninstall by deleting it. Does exactly the same thing as Windows does with installation and uninstallation except it gets rid of many of the pointless steps. | ||
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skyR
Canada13817 Posts
On November 29 2012 10:52 PH wrote: Apple computers are fine. They have two MAJOR disadvantages, though. The first, and most important one, is that you pay a fuckton more for hardware you could get for much less on a Windows PC. I don't care what anyone says, the pricing on an Apple has yet to be even remotely competitive. You realize the MBP is a business grade notebook? No fucking duh if you compare with consumer grade garbage than the price is not competitive. | ||
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TheMooseHeed
United Kingdom535 Posts
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BoZiffer
United States1841 Posts
On November 29 2012 10:53 Womwomwom wrote: All you have to do is watch a video concerning IBM's Watson. Everyone is either using Thinkpads or Macbooks. Same with videos of CERN. The only place Macbooks don't exist is in engineering and that's because engineering software is old, poorly written, and full of people with bad opinions. A lot of IT professionals now use Apple laptops. Flexible Unix base if you know how to use it, has a walled garden approach to stop employees from fucking up things accidently, has a lot of powerful multitasking options, they're generally built well and have very good interface hardware like the display, keyboard, and trackpad, and warranty work is outsourced to Apple. Compared to business laptops, yes they are. Unlike business laptops, the base models actually typically pack the best TN screens money can buy. The MacBook Air is also around the same price as good ultrabooks. If you want to save money, buy refurb. Apple refurbs are basically the same as new laptops and come with new warranty IIRC. What software, besides games and old engineering crap, isn't supported? I can't think of very many at all that are actually useful. Because there is no point to it for the majority of people. The Windows system lets you dump files onto a different hard disk, yes, but installation packages on Windows basically offer nothing useful at all besides packaged adware. What Mac does is that you install by dragging the files to your app folder. You uninstall by deleting it. Does exactly the same thing as Windows does with installation and uninstallation except it gets rid of many of the pointless steps. It was also rather telling that the images coming out of NASA JPL from the Curiosity rover launch/landing showed an overwhelming amount of Macbook Pro's. Thought that was rather interesting, just for interesting's sake. | ||
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Artline
177 Posts
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On November 29 2012 07:35 dUTtrOACh wrote: Ignorance in how to use an OS is not a good way to argue against something. OSX doesn't just move things around. I've never had that happen in the 3 years I've used it daily. It was more likely you being unfamiliar with the filing system.lol, I can counter this point by setting my download destination folder as Desktop... TADA! DADADERP! Ease of use IS subjective. As somebody who grew up using Windows and never really being exposed to Apple products, I find OSX to be hard to use because of its tendency to move shit around for no particular reason and the strange wording of things. Airport mode is WiFi? But... I'm not at an airport... Airport is the network connections hub where you handle wifi connections, and handle network preferences overall. Windows has the same thing but it just has a different name. Using OSX for 2 hours you would learn this, but it is obvious you just tried it for 30 seconds at a store. You can save downloads to desktop too on Mac. You can too on Linux as well. That isn't anything special... On November 29 2012 09:57 Mr. Nefarious wrote: Oh, so that's why every CS prof at my university owns a MacBook Pro and has an iMac in their office. At the CS department at my uni there is roughly a 50/50 split between students who have Macs and people running Thinkpads or similar laptops dualbooting Windows7 and various Linux distros. There's 5 labs at my uni, 2 Linux, 2 Mac, and one Windows. The Windows lab is usually filled with first years who haven't learned Linux or OSX yet while the rest use either the Mac or Linux labs. Windows isn't a good OS once you get used to literally anything else. I vastly prefer Linux over Windows (I use either Mint or Arch Linux.), but I put OSX as the best of them all. It is the smoothest to use, can do the same stuff so much simpler than Windows, and is about as stable as you can get. I've owned a Macbook for almost 3 years and can count the number of crashes/lockups I've had on one hand, and all were due to Flash. Honestly, everyone here is completely ignoring the elephant in the corner. People that actually have degrees in computer science or know how to build computers NEVER buy Apple products. Want a real lesson about Apple? Walk to your nearest major university, walk into any IT or CS classroom and ask the people who do it for a living what they think. You'll either be laughed out of the building or hopefully educated to the point where you wouldn't consider one. When it comes to CS it is all down to preference, some will use one platform or another. It doesn't really matter. At my university there is a strong preference to Mac OS from the profs and many of the students. And to the point people are trying (and failing) to make, what non-game applications are there that Mac is lagging behind Windows on? I honestly can't think of any. Everything I need for CS is available on OSX, and from my experiences, works way smoother (I'm not even going to get into getting Eclipse with the C++ plugin going on Windows compared to OSX or Linux. It is a half hour plus process compared to a 10 second process). On November 29 2012 10:57 skyR wrote: This is an important point. It is something we have to point out on a tech forum I frequent as well. If you think Macs are too expensive, go price out a T-Series Lenovo Thinkpad (also a business-grade laptop) to roughly the same specs and an upgraded battery to match the Mac. Surprise! It costs roughly the same. Go price out an HP Elitebook with similar specs. Surprise! It costs roughly the same. They are different classes of laptops that have to be built better to withstand business usage, hence why they may not be as powerful but are built like tanks.You realize the MBP is a business grade notebook? No fucking duh if you compare with consumer grade garbage than the price is not competitive. | ||
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Alryk
United States2718 Posts
On November 29 2012 08:22 Womwomwom wrote: Yes, the service Apple provides is one of the few comforting things in consumer electronics. Haven't dealt with such easy service before. If you have an actual valid complaint and can communicate like a human being, 90% of the time you just go into the Apple Store and they hand you a new one no questions asked. Even if your complaint is really shitty, you can still get away with it if you're good at storytelling. No that is called ease of use. There is no point having user options for the sake of user options. Do I like clicking next a billion times, flooding the start menu with programs who think they're the prima donna, and making sure I don't click in some shitty toolbar in the process? No, Apple basically got it more right than Windows has. You install by dragging it somewhere. You uninstall by deleting the file. It still dumps files in the library folder so you can still mess around shit if you really want to. Microsoft's solution to this problem was basically win key + search. The start menu is useless because every program wants to have its own shitty spot in the menu and if you've got enough programs, its actually hard to find what you want if you smash next all the time to install software. That's not ease of use no matter how you spin it. If you're reluctant to learn new things, then there's your problem. Aero Peek, Snap, and a slightly more robust File Explorer (copy paste is better) are the only things that are really better about Windows 7/8. OSX has very, very good support for stable third party modifications so you can get Aero Snap on it for like $3 (amongst other things like Total Finder). Since Apple enforces actual standards with their software, most third party modifications just slot in unobtrusively. I can explain the merits of OSX if you really want me to. I've done it at least once when someone asked me why I think Mac OS is the better laptop OS. Windows 8 especially is dreadful for desktops and laptops. People don't like Launchpad. Launchpad isn't also the home screen that you have to put up with when you smash win key, its just a replacement for the bloated app folder. Also Launchpad opens quite easily with a very easy touchpad gesture (and since Mac trackpads don't suck, it actually works). Edit: I should add that Mac OS is best when its a laptop. When it comes to dekstop, I don't see any point getting it over Windows unless you're going to use the Magic Trackpad or whatever its called. The whole OS hinges on trackpad use and if you can't use trackpads, it gets a lot more annoying to use. Just like Windows 8 with non-tablet devices. Ok, a couple things about your quotes on me: 1) I would argue that being easier to code and optimize is certainly ease of use. And a poorly optimized game in OSX (Granted, rare) would certainly cause headaches to the consumer, which is certainly not ease of use. I never said I was reluctant to learn things. I said that's part of me. And it's part of every single person. People will always prefer the tried and true - that does not make it better. I said that. I've tried OSX, and I've learned PLENTY of new things (languages, Linux for a while, I've used OSX, iOS, Android, just about every OS that is out I've seen). Reluctance to learn for me only has to do with laziness. I'm not going to actively seek out a friend's macbook to learn the OS, and lacking the money, I won't be buying one. I never said anything about a reluctance to learn being my "problem," nor did I say I had a reluctance to learn new things. I specifically mentioned OSX, and if you think about the -reasons- that might be, it isn't too out of the ordinary. Linux? Free. Easy. OSX is not, and I'm not going to take a friend's computer for 2 weeks, or buy a macbook, just so I can learn OSX. I have definitely played with it when I can, and having done that, there are certain things about Windows I prefer. Snap is kind of bundled into multitasking, that's why I said I slightly prefer it over OSX. And no matter what you say, I DO think the taskbar is nicer in Windows 7/8 than the OSX Dock. The dock isn't bad, but it isn't my style. I'll certainly concede with launchpad. I just noticed in a review that they complimented it, and since I haven't heard anything bad, I assumed it didn't get the flack that windows 8 did. You responded way more antagonistically to my post than you really needed to. My "ease of use" paragraph was literally to demonstrate that subjective opinions are subjective. I even admitted that it wasn't "perfect." The point wasn't to make a long argument over it, I was just reversing the roles. And it seems kind of silly that you've decided I have a problem with learning new things based on my reluctance to learn OSX, an operating system that would pretty much require me to spend several thousand dollars or borrow a friend's computer to get extensive use in. I never said OSX was bad. I even admitted I see why people like it. All I said was that its draws weren't very attractive to me. I don't need you to explain why OSX is better, I can already see (from your perspective, at least for the most part since I don't know its nuances) what is so attractive about it (again, I already said that) Why be so antagonistic? | ||
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