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The Ultimate Mouse Thread - Page 81

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Deleted User 135096
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
3624 Posts
August 19 2012 12:19 GMT
#1601
http://www.overclock.net/t/854100/mouse-sensor-technology-guide-v2-0-being-updated-28-july-2012
Administrator
MisterFred
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2033 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-20 15:28:01
August 19 2012 12:49 GMT
#1602
Edit: Skylit clarifies/corrects some points below.

On August 19 2012 14:05 MiyaviTeddy wrote:
Is there a list of mice with absolutely no mouse acceleration/prediction?



Most optical sensors on gaming mouse have zero acceleration. Almost all of the mice that use laser sensors have at least some acceleration. (IIRC the exceptions are the Razer mice that use the Phillips Twin Eye laser sensor, but people generally aren't huge fans of those on other grounds.)

There is no such thing as a mouse with absolutely no prediction. I believe the OP has information on this. There is such a thing as mice with no angle snapping.

Edit: Never mind, Toast took it out of the OP. The second kind of 'prediction' in the quote below is more properly known as 'angle snapping':

On January 17 2012 10:30 MisterFred wrote:
There's prediction, and there's prediction. Basically, a mouse sends periodic signals to your computer updating the coordinates it reads. The coordinates it reads periodically. As in not constantly. Therefore, in order to provide fluid motion for your cursor, the mouse or its drivers predicts your mouse's movement.

Fun math word problems! You do use them in the real world!

If you move your mouse in a straight line from pixel (100,100) to pixel (100,120) and the mouse polls (reports its position) four times during that movement, the mouse only has zero prediction when the cursor is at pixel coordinates (100,100), (100,105), (100,110), (100,115), and (100,120) - the starting point and the four polling reports during and at the end of the movement.

But, your computer does not show your mouse jumping multiple pixels at a time, appearing to move in small "teleports," as it would if there was zero prediction. Instead, the mouse appears to move smoothly & fluidly, in this case correctly predicting a straight line but in actual fact using "prediction" when you see the mouse cursor moving through pixel coordinates (100,101), (100,102), (100,103), (100,104), etc.

This is why increasing the polling rate reduces prediction - the software only has to guess for shorter "jumps", rather than the longer jumps it has to guess if it reports less often. But prediction is necessary to the appearance of a fluidly moving cursor. For every mouse, laser and optical.

When most people say a mouse has "no prediction" the mean it works as above - but EVERY mouse still uses prediction. When some gamers consider it to be a problem is when software or hardware tries to 'correct' unsteady movements by the mouse user. For instance, let us say that a high prediction mouse assumes the user wants the cursor to move in a line from pixel coordinates (100,100) to (100,120). However, the starting point and the four polling points actually report as: (100,100), (101,105), (99,110), (102, 115), (98,120). Note the changes in the X-axis. A mouse with medium or high prediction will still move the cursor in a straight line from (100,100) to (100,120). This is the prediction gamers hate, because they (sometimes falsely, sometimes accurately) assume that prediction will cause them to be a few pixels off their intended target.

One of the problems in testing, however, is that since people are not 100% accurate in their aim, it is really hard to tell which mice has only the first, necessary type of prediction, and which mice employ the added layer of prediction following.

Note: I typed this in part to explain it to myself. If I'm wrong on the basic concepts described here, please correct me.

Speaking of which, anyone know if a Naos 3200 at 1000mhz (max) polling rate needs to worry about the second kind of prediction?
"The victor? Not the highest scoring, nor the best strategist, nor the best tactitian. The victor was he that was closest to the Tao of FFA." -.Praetor
NewbieOne
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Poland560 Posts
August 19 2012 13:57 GMT
#1603
On August 19 2012 14:05 MiyaviTeddy wrote:
Is there a list of mice with absolutely no mouse acceleration/prediction?


Dunno. Acceleration is more sensor-based. While there are many, many mice, there aren't so many different sensors and if one mouse has accelaration, another mouse with the same sensor necessarily has it too (unless the mouse manufacturer has tampered with something). Prediction is more optional than that. With the Avago 9500 sensor (Xai, Sensei, G9X, G7 and more), you can supposedly turn it off via drivers, while there are some sensors where you can't. Yesterday, I went to Roccat's site and they have some mice that they boast as having no prediction whatsoever. Combatting accelaration would be more of a Zowie thing.
INTENZ-_-
Profile Joined August 2012
Sweden137 Posts
August 19 2012 14:02 GMT
#1604
I turned off any acceleration, deactivated sc2 sensitivity in game and I play with 2000 dpi with 5/10 windows sensitivity on a G9x. Feels very good. Although I think I've spammed my left click a bit too much, feels a bit wonky.
Illuminati101
Profile Joined September 2010
Peru21 Posts
August 20 2012 00:25 GMT
#1605
Hey guys, im about to buy a ss sensei raw in its glossy black version (they dont have the rubberized version here in Peru), so i want to know if this is the right decision or not. I would like comments from people that own both versions plz, thanks in advance.
Deleted User 135096
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
3624 Posts
August 20 2012 13:34 GMT
#1606
On August 20 2012 09:25 Illuminati101 wrote:
Hey guys, im about to buy a ss sensei raw in its glossy black version (they dont have the rubberized version here in Peru), so i want to know if this is the right decision or not. I would like comments from people that own both versions plz, thanks in advance.

Haiiyaa's review just came out yesterday, that should help but it sounds like the Raw is a much better purchase than the original for a few reasons.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1296278/the-raw-sensei-review
Administrator
skylit
Profile Joined May 2012
United States2 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-20 14:07:42
August 20 2012 13:58 GMT
#1607
@MisterFred

In terms of common laser gaming mice, only the A9500/9800 architecture has acceleration. Everything else is pretty much accel free till max IPS tracking speed.

@ Angle Snapping: Sensors from different manufacturers produce different results. Angle snapping can be disabled, but there are other things on ROM level (Jitter correction, smoothing.. etc) which may effect tracking. Just to clarify.
MisterFred
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2033 Posts
August 20 2012 15:28 GMT
#1608
Welcome to teamliquid.net skylit! I recognize you from OCN. Thanks for the clarification.
"The victor? Not the highest scoring, nor the best strategist, nor the best tactitian. The victor was he that was closest to the Tao of FFA." -.Praetor
tschecko
Profile Joined August 2012
Andorra39 Posts
August 20 2012 17:10 GMT
#1609
On August 19 2012 23:02 Tellus wrote:
I turned off any acceleration, deactivated sc2 sensitivity in game and I play with 2000 dpi with 5/10 windows sensitivity on a G9x. Feels very good. Although I think I've spammed my left click a bit too much, feels a bit wonky.


i thought 6/11 (Windows) is 1:1 (RAW mouse data)
NOO
NewbieOne
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Poland560 Posts
August 20 2012 17:22 GMT
#1610
On August 20 2012 09:25 Illuminati101 wrote:
Hey guys, im about to buy a ss sensei raw in its glossy black version (they dont have the rubberized version here in Peru), so i want to know if this is the right decision or not. I would like comments from people that own both versions plz, thanks in advance.


I haven't had the Sensei in hand but I believe not all rubberised is automatically better than non-rubberised. In many cases I've preferred "normal" (i.e. unspecial) surfaces. In fact, I tend to prefer sticky surfaces to surfaces that will never glue to your hand (makes me shift my grip all the time, which is uncomfortable).
Deleted User 135096
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
3624 Posts
August 20 2012 17:34 GMT
#1611
On August 21 2012 02:10 tschecko wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 19 2012 23:02 Tellus wrote:
I turned off any acceleration, deactivated sc2 sensitivity in game and I play with 2000 dpi with 5/10 windows sensitivity on a G9x. Feels very good. Although I think I've spammed my left click a bit too much, feels a bit wonky.


i thought 6/11 (Windows) is 1:1 (RAW mouse data)

it is (but not raw). For a more detailed description, see the windows sensitivity settings section in the tech guide linked in the OP.
Administrator
tschecko
Profile Joined August 2012
Andorra39 Posts
August 20 2012 17:51 GMT
#1612
On August 21 2012 02:34 wo1fwood wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2012 02:10 tschecko wrote:
On August 19 2012 23:02 Tellus wrote:
I turned off any acceleration, deactivated sc2 sensitivity in game and I play with 2000 dpi with 5/10 windows sensitivity on a G9x. Feels very good. Although I think I've spammed my left click a bit too much, feels a bit wonky.


i thought 6/11 (Windows) is 1:1 (RAW mouse data)

it is (but not raw). For a more detailed description, see the windows sensitivity settings section in the tech guide linked in the OP.

this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=142026 ?

sry i couldnt find further notes. just that 6/11 is not pixel skipping etc and so is 1:1 mouse data -> windows application.

NOO
Deleted User 135096
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
3624 Posts
August 20 2012 20:51 GMT
#1613
On August 21 2012 02:51 tschecko wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 21 2012 02:34 wo1fwood wrote:
On August 21 2012 02:10 tschecko wrote:
On August 19 2012 23:02 Tellus wrote:
I turned off any acceleration, deactivated sc2 sensitivity in game and I play with 2000 dpi with 5/10 windows sensitivity on a G9x. Feels very good. Although I think I've spammed my left click a bit too much, feels a bit wonky.


i thought 6/11 (Windows) is 1:1 (RAW mouse data)

it is (but not raw). For a more detailed description, see the windows sensitivity settings section in the tech guide linked in the OP.

this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=142026 ?

sry i couldnt find further notes. just that 6/11 is not pixel skipping etc and so is 1:1 mouse data -> windows application.


nope, this one: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333648
Administrator
Demicore
Profile Joined October 2011
France503 Posts
August 21 2012 09:51 GMT
#1614
Haha welcome Skylit; we are starstruck.
"I love male nipples in starcraft; the two go together so well." ~Tasteless
TheToast
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States4808 Posts
August 22 2012 03:16 GMT
#1615
On August 21 2012 18:51 Demicore wrote:
Haha welcome Skylit; we are starstruck.


Lol, now that Skylit is here I feel like I have to update the thread. Now I just need a time machine to have more time in each day... hmmm
I like the way the walls go out. Gives you an open feeling. Firefly's a good design. People don't appreciate the substance of things. Objects in space. People miss out on what's solid.
xgtx
Profile Joined February 2009
227 Posts
August 24 2012 02:58 GMT
#1616
do kespa pros still play with the same mouse? because I guess they play sc2 in high resolution, and their old mouses have only 400dpi.
nucleo
Profile Joined February 2011
292 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-24 04:22:44
August 24 2012 04:14 GMT
#1617
On August 20 2012 09:25 Illuminati101 wrote:
Hey guys, im about to buy a ss sensei raw in its glossy black version (they dont have the rubberized version here in Peru), so i want to know if this is the right decision or not. I would like comments from people that own both versions plz, thanks in advance.

I have experience with the Xai, Sensei and Sensei raw rubberized... also with the deathAdder
I cant reallt tell you if it's the right descision or not as it's it very individual but over all out of the three I think the raw is the best value for the money.

if I consider the death adder (that I got for like 15$ cheaper then the sensei raw) then ill have to give it the edge, however it is not as comfortable for me.

I dont have small hands and i constantly switch between claw and full palm and I find rubberized versions of all mice better for me, you can try ordering from their website.

again, in general i find that it is all very subjective, if i would put it to extremes my setup goes like this:

working in Maya i really like the MS intelliMouse explorer 3.1 on QCK but the non rubberizing bothers me so long session are moving me back to the sensei

working in zbrush when my wacom is not with me: sensei Raw on 4HD/icematt glass surface

gaming: i find the razer DA on cloth to give me the best feel but the raw kicks ass just as well on hard surface

now note that this is just my subjective non-expert opinions of how i feel
and i'm in no way an expert gosu gamer as well (:

edit-more on topic and straight to the point: just to clarify, as for the sensei Raw Rubberized vs the regular Sensei (which is kind of glossy), in terms of comfort only - i think the rubberized is a much better choice for ME. If your hands are sweaty or slightly sweaty i think rubberized versions really are far superior.
check the price if you order directly from SS site.
AeralHero
Profile Joined January 2012
Bulgaria29 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-24 15:22:27
August 24 2012 15:07 GMT
#1618
Poll: Whitch one is better?

Logitech G400 (4)
 
67%

Tt Esports Azurues (2)
 
33%

6 total votes

Your vote: Whitch one is better?

(Vote): Tt Esports Azurues
(Vote): Logitech G400


What mouse do you guys think is better for sc2,league,dota 2 Tt Azurues or Logiteh G400,i found i am in need of a new mouse and i stumbled upon a sale where both of the mice are at the same price but i cant decide between the two.
Illuminati101
Profile Joined September 2010
Peru21 Posts
August 24 2012 21:06 GMT
#1619
On August 24 2012 13:14 nucleo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2012 09:25 Illuminati101 wrote:
Hey guys, im about to buy a ss sensei raw in its glossy black version (they dont have the rubberized version here in Peru), so i want to know if this is the right decision or not. I would like comments from people that own both versions plz, thanks in advance.

I have experience with the Xai, Sensei and Sensei raw rubberized... also with the deathAdder
I cant reallt tell you if it's the right descision or not as it's it very individual but over all out of the three I think the raw is the best value for the money.

if I consider the death adder (that I got for like 15$ cheaper then the sensei raw) then ill have to give it the edge, however it is not as comfortable for me.

I dont have small hands and i constantly switch between claw and full palm and I find rubberized versions of all mice better for me, you can try ordering from their website.

again, in general i find that it is all very subjective, if i would put it to extremes my setup goes like this:

working in Maya i really like the MS intelliMouse explorer 3.1 on QCK but the non rubberizing bothers me so long session are moving me back to the sensei

working in zbrush when my wacom is not with me: sensei Raw on 4HD/icematt glass surface

gaming: i find the razer DA on cloth to give me the best feel but the raw kicks ass just as well on hard surface

now note that this is just my subjective non-expert opinions of how i feel
and i'm in no way an expert gosu gamer as well (:

edit-more on topic and straight to the point: just to clarify, as for the sensei Raw Rubberized vs the regular Sensei (which is kind of glossy), in terms of comfort only - i think the rubberized is a much better choice for ME. If your hands are sweaty or slightly sweaty i think rubberized versions really are far superior.
check the price if you order directly from SS site.

Thanks for your reply Nucleo...
Deleted User 135096
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
3624 Posts
August 25 2012 12:19 GMT
#1620
On August 25 2012 00:07 AeralHero wrote:

What mouse do you guys think is better for sc2,league,dota 2 Tt Azurues or Logiteh G400,i found i am in need of a new mouse and i stumbled upon a sale where both of the mice are at the same price but i cant decide between the two.

need to discern your grip style first, that will tell you which mouse will be "better".
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