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Medrea
10003 Posts
Gamers require shiny LED's on everything because we are dumb and want shiny thingies. And HUGE numbers for our surging man-mouse. 9600DPI? No man its all about 10800 now. It needs to respond to your heartbeating. The word "onboard" gets us hard. And more RAM usage means we have more processing power propelling us to victory. | ||
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Deleted User 135096
3624 Posts
On January 11 2012 07:25 Neurosis wrote: You'd think that companies using crap sensors would have caught on by now...Like, how hard is it to make a mouse that doesn't have some massive glaring flaw? Apparently impossible. The deathadder seems to be the only flawless gaming mouse as far as the sensor goes but I don't like the shape of it. Someone should put that sensor inside the Kana, I'd buy it  On January 11 2012 07:31 Medrea wrote: ahahahahaha! Well put though.Steelseires iz for gamerz dood. Gamers require shiny LED's on everything because we are dumb and want shiny thingies. And HUGE numbers for our surging man-mouse. 9600DPI? No man its all about 10800 now. It needs to respond to your heartbeating. The word "onboard" gets us hard. And more RAM usage means we have more processing power propelling us to victory. | ||
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Medrea
10003 Posts
I dont mean to say all steelseries products are crap. I am merely mocking the industry as a whole. People think DPI is a benchmark for mice. Max it out so its so fast they cant control anything. Then actually reduce windows sensitivity, thereby destroying the accuracy of the mouse. Thats when I make the Jackie Chan "what the hell are you doing" face. You might as well by a 5 dollar shit mouse from Rite-Aid. | ||
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lisward
Singapore959 Posts
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jackdaleaper
Philippines1216 Posts
On January 10 2012 05:15 Medrea wrote: You can fingertip grip the MX518, which supports all three common mousing styles. It isnt as perfect as a mini-mouse sounds like it would be for you. However I can guarantee the quality of the mouse. Even after all these years. The DPI is fully adjustable, which is more than very many mice can say. Thanks, I'll look into the CM Storm Spawn since it seems to be getting some nice reviews in this thread. I tried the MX518 and you're right it does seem a bit bit for my hands. | ||
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TheToast
United States4808 Posts
On January 11 2012 01:12 wo1fwood wrote: It's because they are only available in Europe at the moment and very new. I posted these back a few pages so they might help http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=2200424 http://www.overclock.net/t/1183274/kinzu-v2-kinzu-v2-pro-and-kana Edit: To TheToast, this link is a little more up to date with newer mice specs than the current spreadsheet. http://www.overclock.net/t/854100/ocn-mouse-reference-thread Edit 2: Oh I just found that ESR link again that discusses mouse prediction, malfunction speed, dpi and resolution. On pages 1-2. http://www.esreality.com/?a=longpost&id=1265679&page=1 Thanks wo1f, I've been pretty lazy with updating things lately. :/ I'll find some time in the next day or two to make some updates and I'll post this link in as well. | ||
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lisward
Singapore959 Posts
On January 11 2012 15:36 TheToast wrote: Thanks wo1f, I've been pretty lazy with updating things lately. :/ I'll find some time in the next day or two to make some updates and I'll post this link in as well. So far everyone who has reviewed the Kana in that thread has complained about that problem, with the cheap 'plastic' feet and buttons as an added complaint. When they hyped up Kana on their wall I posted people not to buy it until they solve the problem with their sensor, a problem which they knew since the beta version of the Kana according to the testers but refused to fix, they replied with a sarcastic comment. | ||
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xrayEU
Sweden571 Posts
But i won't buy the Kana as long as they have problem with the sensor. Thanks for the heads up. | ||
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TT1
Canada9987 Posts
easily one of the best palm grip mice on the market atm, at a reasonable price on top of that | ||
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Manex
Australia156 Posts
On January 11 2012 13:06 jackdaleaper wrote: Thanks, I'll look into the CM Storm Spawn since it seems to be getting some nice reviews in this thread. I tried the MX518 and you're right it does seem a bit bit for my hands. Spawn is amazing, as long as it suits you comfort wise, hardware is absolutely top notch. | ||
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lisward
Singapore959 Posts
On January 12 2012 01:11 mTwTT1 wrote: loving my da and this is coming from someone whos used a logitech g9x(being the idiot that i am i didnt know that that mouse wasnt ment for palm grip user), a g400, a lachesis, a zowie ec2 and a xai easily one of the best palm grip mice on the market atm, at a reasonable price on top of that Yep yep. You can complain that palm grip may not suit you, or that it's not of the best make. But it's by far one of the only mice without sensor problems. | ||
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MisterFred
United States2033 Posts
But basically, in part because of the available sensors for mouse manufacturers to buy, there is no mouse without glaring flaws. The closest I've found to a perfect mouse is a mionix 3200, but it can basically only run well at 800 and 1600 DPI, which is a glaring flaw for anyone not wanting those two settings. (Like the Deathadder for palm grip people, the Naos 3200 is a particular style - in this case right-handed ergonomic for fingertip or claw grip - with a quality optical sensor.) Part of the problem is that the most common 'flagship' laser sensor, the Avago 9500, has minor hardware-level acceleration problems. Better optical sensors, like those in the Naos or the Deathadder, have limited DPI options available to them and don't market as well. You basically have to choose between an Avago 9500 (Steelseries Sensei, Steelseries Xai, Naos 5000, Corsair M60 & M90, a few of the Logitechs, etc.) with the shape, buttons, and/or software you prefer or a quality optical sensor of a few different types (Naos 3200, a few of the Logitechs, most but not all Razers) with limited DPI selection, placed in a shape that's hopefully what you want. Or, I suppose, a less popular laser sensor like that in the Steelseries Ikari Laser or Razer laser mice, which I know less about. A list of the sensors for some of the most common mice can be found in the OCN Mouse Reference Thread. You'll notice that many of the mice with similar problems (great mouse except for a small acceleration problem & it works like crap on cloth = Avago 9500) have the same sensor. Generally the best-regarded optical sensors are the Avago 30x0, and the Razer-excusive optical sensors (Avago 3088, 3688, 3888). The Phillips Twin Eye is the go-to laser sensor that doesn't have acceleration problems, but some people complain it doesn't feel the same as the Avago laser sensors (my guess: the Avago is super sensitive, thus providing that hyper-sensitive movement some people like). Razer uses Phillips for their laser mice, for example, because of Razers stand against any and all acceleration or interpolation (software enhancement of data received from the mouse, also equating to less precision). Stay away from the Pixart sensors. They have a hardware bug that occasionally jumps your cursor several pixels horizontally that sometimes triggers on straight-line vertical movement. There was great hope Steelseries could fix the bug in their new Kinzu v2 and Kana mice, but like Zowie with the Mico, Steelseries failed. The sensor issue is one of the big reasons it's best to figure out the size, weight, shape, button sensitivity, etc. that you like first. Then get a quality optical sensor from a brand that offers it in that shape, etc., or if you can't stand the available DPI settings, settle for a laser mouse in the shape, etc., you originally picked out. TL;DR: Everyone recommends the mouse they fell in love with (read first quality mouse they bought and thus learned to use effectively) without knowing anything about what distinguishes mice from each other. That, or they recommend the mouse they don't have the money to buy but have been convinced is the best. You have to put some serious thought into it and know something of what you want or just try stuff randomly until you find something that works for you. P.S. When it comes to my favorite mouse I'm no different from anyone else. The Naos 3200 was my first real gaming mouse, and the ergonomics were so comfortable that I developed a fingertip grip and optimized my muscle memory to 1600 DPI. All the other mice I used before (non-quality whatevers) never felt good. But I probably could have bought a Deathadder and become a palm gripper using 1800 or 900 DPI. | ||
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Sway.746
United States95 Posts
Any recommendations (doesn't need to be a gaming mouse, just something easy to use and ergonomic (or just wont fuck up my arm more than it already is)? | ||
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MisterFred
United States2033 Posts
However, using a crappy non-gaming mouse doesn't generally cause problems since most people make (non-dangerous) wide sweeping motions, unless it has a really stiff left button that you have to press hard to click on over and over. If you're having problems in your arm shoulder area, I'd be more concerned with your posture, chair height, or some other larger non-mouse problem. A lot of people have their desk setup to where their chair is too low, and when they're using the mouse their wrist presses heavily into the desk while their left arm is unsupported above the keyboard. Particularly people who lean forward a lot at their desks. This throws the body off by raising the right shoulder and lowering the left shoulder, causing a variety of problems over time. Thus you might run into problems when mousing a lot without any problem with the actual mouse. Good posture doesn't just mean a straight spine. You should make sure that, when mousing, your right arm is not extended far away from your body while your left arm is tucked in close. Similarly, when typing, you shouldn't have to move your right arm over to the left side of your body (I have a tendency to do both these things, keeping my left arm well positioned at the left side of the keyboard, throwing the right arm out wide to mouse and bringing it across the body to type - the solution is to shift the keyboard depending on whether I'm typing or mousing, so that my arms stay at roughly the same angle to the torso for typing or browsing sessions.) Of course, an internet diagnosis by a non-medical person is probably one of the worse ways to deal with this sort of complicated highly-variable problem. Take a good look at your overall setup, making sure your chair, chair height, desk, screen, etc., allows you good posture both while typing and while mousing. Use lightweight (often this means wired) mice that are easy to move, without setting sensitivity too high (800 DPI should be a good mouse setting, with windows sensitivity in the mouse panel at the middle setting, 6/11). A Naos 3200 would be a very comfy ergonomic mouse, and it has a handy 800 DPI setting which shouldn't be too fast (and you can turn off the LEDs for an all black professional look once you install the driver). Plus it is lightweight and the buttons are easy to press. On the other hand, going to a computer store to try several mice and see which mouse wheel (if you use that a lot) feels best for you is also a good idea. But when you say 'right arm' it sounds like something above the wrist, like tennis elbow or some shoulder thing. Which would almost certainly not be a mouse problem. Edit: And, of course, if you pitch for a softball league, play tennis or raquetball or badminton or bowl or something - well you probably would have thought of those activities first. | ||
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Medrea
10003 Posts
A lot of desks are too high or too low which causes the user to have to crane there hand forward or back. | ||
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zoLo
United States5896 Posts
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Khenra
Netherlands885 Posts
On January 12 2012 18:16 zoLo wrote: How is the weight of a Deathadder and Abyssus? I am using it primarily for SC2 and BF3 and I want a mouse that is balanced. Not too heavy or too light. Abyssus is SUPER light. Like 70 grams I think. Deathadder is kinda heavy, ~120 grams (not exactly sure). I'm actually looking for something in between, 80-90 grams would be optimal I think. Haven't found one yet  | ||
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vanhio
Niue1017 Posts
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IPS.Blue
Germany309 Posts
On January 12 2012 02:01 MisterFred wrote: Neurosis: actually a few people have made what they call a Kinzuadder on Overclock.net. If you don't mind taking apart mice and putting them back together, you can check that out. But basically, in part because of the available sensors for mouse manufacturers to buy, there is no mouse without glaring flaws. The closest I've found to a perfect mouse is a mionix 3200, but it can basically only run well at 800 and 1600 DPI, which is a glaring flaw for anyone not wanting those two settings. (Like the Deathadder for palm grip people, the Naos 3200 is a particular style - in this case right-handed ergonomic for fingertip or claw grip - with a quality optical sensor.) Part of the problem is that the most common 'flagship' laser sensor, the Avago 9500, has minor hardware-level acceleration problems. Better optical sensors, like those in the Naos or the Deathadder, have limited DPI options available to them and don't market as well. You basically have to choose between an Avago 9500 (Steelseries Sensei, Steelseries Xai, Naos 5000, Corsair M60 & M90, a few of the Logitechs, etc.) with the shape, buttons, and/or software you prefer or a quality optical sensor of a few different types (Naos 3200, a few of the Logitechs, most but not all Razers) with limited DPI selection, placed in a shape that's hopefully what you want. Or, I suppose, a less popular laser sensor like that in the Steelseries Ikari Laser or Razer laser mice, which I know less about. A list of the sensors for some of the most common mice can be found in the OCN Mouse Reference Thread. You'll notice that many of the mice with similar problems (great mouse except for a small acceleration problem & it works like crap on cloth = Avago 9500) have the same sensor. Generally the best-regarded optical sensors are the Avago 30x0, and the Razer-excusive optical sensors (Avago 3088, 3688, 3888). The Phillips Twin Eye is the go-to laser sensor that doesn't have acceleration problems, but some people complain it doesn't feel the same as the Avago laser sensors (my guess: the Avago is super sensitive, thus providing that hyper-sensitive movement some people like). Razer uses Phillips for their laser mice, for example, because of Razers stand against any and all acceleration or interpolation (software enhancement of data received from the mouse, also equating to less precision). Stay away from the Pixart sensors. They have a hardware bug that occasionally jumps your cursor several pixels horizontally that sometimes triggers on straight-line vertical movement. There was great hope Steelseries could fix the bug in their new Kinzu v2 and Kana mice, but like Zowie with the Mico, Steelseries failed. The sensor issue is one of the big reasons it's best to figure out the size, weight, shape, button sensitivity, etc. that you like first. Then get a quality optical sensor from a brand that offers it in that shape, etc., or if you can't stand the available DPI settings, settle for a laser mouse in the shape, etc., you originally picked out. TL;DR: Everyone recommends the mouse they fell in love with (read first quality mouse they bought and thus learned to use effectively) without knowing anything about what distinguishes mice from each other. That, or they recommend the mouse they don't have the money to buy but have been convinced is the best. You have to put some serious thought into it and know something of what you want or just try stuff randomly until you find something that works for you. P.S. When it comes to my favorite mouse I'm no different from anyone else. The Naos 3200 was my first real gaming mouse, and the ergonomics were so comfortable that I developed a fingertip grip and optimized my muscle memory to 1600 DPI. All the other mice I used before (non-quality whatevers) never felt good. But I probably could have bought a Deathadder and become a palm gripper using 1800 or 900 DPI. Excellent post. You're right when you say most people just recommend the mouse they learned to use. They black out everything else. Also most people are not critical enough about what mouse companys write about their latest uber mouse. Although your post is quite thorough, I would like to comment on a few things. The KinzuAdder is a fantastic mouse. The only problem is, that it isn't that easy to manfacture. If you want to get rid of the cheap mouse click switches Razer uses (that's why all DeathAdders develop malfunctioning (e. g. the double click issue) mouse buttons over time) you have to do some soldering (which can result in the destruction of the PCB). Concerning the Mionix 3200: Being only able to choose between two CPI settings is - in my opinion - not that big a flaw. You can adjust the Windows mouse cursor speed setting to get more CPI values out of the two (for example: 400, 600 and 1200). It's not optimal, but it's better than negative or positive acceleration, Jitter, a high LOD, strong prediction or a low perfect control speed. Concerning the Avago 9500: It is worth mentioning that the latest SteelSeries mouse which uses the 9500 (the Sensei) is significantly better than all other mice which use the 9500: it actually works on some cloth pads without freaking out madly. Still: it has the acceleration you mentioned. In all other aspects the 9500 is pretty awesome and you can even set your CPI in very small increments. Although not as small, as SteelSeries would like you to believe - a Xai or Sensei running at 540 and 580 is the same. The sensor works in steps of 90's: 540, 630, 720, 810, 900 ... Also the Sensei only has true 5700 CPI (the 11400 CPI is just another lie, as it is interpolated (the "CPU" of the Sensei multiplicates every count by two, thats what your Windows mouse cursor setting does at 8/11). | ||
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zoLo
United States5896 Posts
On January 12 2012 21:46 Khenra wrote: Abyssus is SUPER light. Like 70 grams I think. Deathadder is kinda heavy, ~120 grams (not exactly sure). I'm actually looking for something in between, 80-90 grams would be optimal I think. Haven't found one yet How is the comfort though? I am a palm grip player and I am currently using a small mouse. Using a palm grip on a small mouse isn't too bad for me and it feels comfortable. So far, I've seen a lot of reviews that praise the Deathadder while the Abyssus is getting okay ratings on average. | ||
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