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Thanks blue, I appreciate the compliment.
Good to know about the Sensei, and I should mention that I never pay attention to lift-off-distance or perfect control speed since I use a relatively high DPI setting, don't FPS and thus don't generally lift off my mouse or flick the mouse/use super-high-speed motions.
So sometimes I don't notice 'flaws' like the 3200's high lift-off-distance (I think some FPS players use the scotch tape mod that many deathadder uses opt for). It also has the same minor levels of prediction that all Avago 3060 mice have in case I talked it up too much (one reason to go exclusively with 1000mhz polling).
I am interested in how the Sensei is a better 9500 sensor option than others. I've considered buying a Naos 5000 so I can try out 2300-2500 DPI in the future (on a larger resolution screen than I have currently) without interpolation.
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On January 12 2012 13:51 MisterFred wrote:
Arm, wrist, or knuckles? Carpal tunnel & similar problems are generally caused by small, repetitive motions if I recall correctly. So wrist or knuckle area problems (including inflamed tendons in the hand) are often caused by having too high of a mouse sensitivity, most mouse movements thus becoming tiny adjustments - the attempt to control the hand 'tightly' enough to achieve enough precision for these tiny adjustments over and over makes problems far more likely to occur. Try to develop a habit of using your mouse where your hand is largely relaxed and necessary motions feel full and normal.
However, using a crappy non-gaming mouse doesn't generally cause problems since most people make (non-dangerous) wide sweeping motions, unless it has a really stiff left button that you have to press hard to click on over and over.
If you're having problems in your arm shoulder area, I'd be more concerned with your posture, chair height, or some other larger non-mouse problem. A lot of people have their desk setup to where their chair is too low, and when they're using the mouse their wrist presses heavily into the desk while their left arm is unsupported above the keyboard. Particularly people who lean forward a lot at their desks. This throws the body off by raising the right shoulder and lowering the left shoulder, causing a variety of problems over time. Thus you might run into problems when mousing a lot without any problem with the actual mouse.
Good posture doesn't just mean a straight spine. You should make sure that, when mousing, your right arm is not extended far away from your body while your left arm is tucked in close. Similarly, when typing, you shouldn't have to move your right arm over to the left side of your body (I have a tendency to do both these things, keeping my left arm well positioned at the left side of the keyboard, throwing the right arm out wide to mouse and bringing it across the body to type - the solution is to shift the keyboard depending on whether I'm typing or mousing, so that my arms stay at roughly the same angle to the torso for typing or browsing sessions.)
Of course, an internet diagnosis by a non-medical person is probably one of the worse ways to deal with this sort of complicated highly-variable problem. Take a good look at your overall setup, making sure your chair, chair height, desk, screen, etc., allows you good posture both while typing and while mousing. Use lightweight (often this means wired) mice that are easy to move, without setting sensitivity too high (800 DPI should be a good mouse setting, with windows sensitivity in the mouse panel at the middle setting, 6/11).
A Naos 3200 would be a very comfy ergonomic mouse, and it has a handy 800 DPI setting which shouldn't be too fast (and you can turn off the LEDs for an all black professional look once you install the driver). Plus it is lightweight and the buttons are easy to press.
On the other hand, going to a computer store to try several mice and see which mouse wheel (if you use that a lot) feels best for you is also a good idea.
But when you say 'right arm' it sounds like something above the wrist, like tennis elbow or some shoulder thing. Which would almost certainly not be a mouse problem.
Edit: And, of course, if you pitch for a softball league, play tennis or raquetball or badminton or bowl or something - well you probably would have thought of those activities first.
Thanks for all the info! The Naos 3200 looks pretty good 
It's actually just in my right (mousing) hand, mostly in the middle and ring fingers. I think it might be due to the scroll wheel or just clicking too repetitively. I fixed my setup and got a better keyboard when I first started getting symptoms (raised monitors, low desk, mechanical keyboard, etc), but i'm using basically an anti-ergonomic mouse.
I've been using the Logitech G5 mouse at home for 5 years with no issues, but once I started using this Apple Magic Mouse (http://zwee1.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Cheap-Apple-Magic-Mouse.jpg) at work, I've had these problems.
I like the idea of the Naos 3200, and am now considering that, a Logitech G500 (the current version of the one I have at home), or maybe the R.A.T. 7 or the like.
For now I'm using the same mouse, but just left-handing it. I still feel slight twinge or numbness in my right hand when typing, but I think the root cause is from mousing.
Thanks again
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If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I've had some logitechs (never owned the g5) with a really nice mouse wheel. There's probably also a benefit to using the same setup at home and work. And of course, once you start to feel twinges and problems, the best thing you can do is just not use that area of your body for awhile before implementing the new more ergonomic system.
If possible, don't use your computer at home for a few weeks, maybe take a day or two off work to get a four day weekend with no mousing, etc.
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On January 13 2012 04:01 MisterFred wrote:
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I've had some logitechs (never owned the g5) with a really nice mouse wheel. There's probably also a benefit to using the same setup at home and work. And of course, once you start to feel twinges and problems, the best thing you can do is just not use that area of your body for awhile before implementing the new more ergonomic system.
If possible, don't use your computer at home for a few weeks, maybe take a day or two off work to get a four day weekend with no mousing, etc.
Thanks for all the info! I've ordered a G500 so I can replicate my home and work setup as much as possible. I'm going to left-handed mouse at work until it comes in, and try not to touch the computer too much this weekend (I have Monday off!)
Thanks again!!
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On January 13 2012 02:48 zoLo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 21:46 Khenra wrote:On January 12 2012 18:16 zoLo wrote:
How is the weight of a Deathadder and Abyssus? I am using it primarily for SC2 and BF3 and I want a mouse that is balanced. Not too heavy or too light. Abyssus is SUPER light. Like 70 grams I think. Deathadder is kinda heavy, ~120 grams (not exactly sure). I'm actually looking for something in between, 80-90 grams would be optimal I think. Haven't found one yet How is the comfort though? I am a palm grip player and I am currently using a small mouse. Using a palm grip on a small mouse isn't too bad for me and it feels comfortable. So far, I've seen a lot of reviews that praise the Deathadder while the Abyssus is getting okay ratings on average.
Comfort is a hard thing to describe over the internet because it's just personal preference.
Also, don't believe reviews. Reviewers usually just rate based on "features", which are actually useless for a starcraft player.
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So I just got my wired Roccat Pyra today so I'm going to try it out for a day or two and then write up my thoughts on it. I will likely need some help interpreting the data I gather, as I still have no idea how to properly interpret the ms paint data on prediction/angle snapping, jitter etc... I can say, this sucker is tiny though coming from my Performance MX (lol).
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From what I understand, everyone says that Pixart sensor is great, except for a bug where, on 1-5% of exactly vertical strokes (or a couple of times during a multi-hour gaming session), it'll jump some number of pixels to the right for no apparent reason. So I'd assume it works pretty well, but if you want to test something, just line it up against something with a straight edge and push it straight up and down about 200 times in MS Paint.
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On January 13 2012 09:00 MisterFred wrote:
From what I understand, everyone says that Pixart sensor is great, except for a bug where, on 1-5% of exactly vertical strokes (or a couple of times during a multi-hour gaming session), it'll jump some number of pixels to the right for no apparent reason. So I'd assume it works pretty well, but if you want to test something, just line it up against something with a straight edge and push it straight up and down about 200 times in MS Paint.
You're also forgetting the tracking sucks really bad at any dpi above 800. So even if they fix the jump bug it's still pretty much an fps only mouse.
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I've never understood people that use different DPI settings in different scenarios. SC2 is easily playable at 800 DPI. I prefer 1600, but I could easily move my arm twice as fast. It doesn't go very fast now, lol.
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On January 13 2012 12:38 MisterFred wrote:
I've never understood people that use different DPI settings in different scenarios. SC2 is easily playable at 800 DPI. I prefer 1600, but I could easily move my arm twice as fast. It doesn't go very fast now, lol.
I just feel lower sensitivity is better for fps where precision aiming is so important and higher sensitivity is better for rts where you need to make very fast (and often times large) boxes. An example, just watch ForGG's stream and you can tell right away that he uses quite high sensitivity. I think it's fair to say he has the best micro in sc2 so if you wanna copy anyone it should be him.
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Not necessarily. People who can be pin-point accurate at high mouse sensitivity have a physical gift some of us just don't have. And I'm far more worried about my pin-point accuracy (feedback infestors, snipe ghosts/banes, marine target-fire banes, nucro hurt zerglings away from an early zealot) than I am about making boxes (sending workers to mine, splitting marines, setting up concaves). Precision requirements are a tad lower for SC2 than FPS, but clicking on a baneling is not that much easier than hitting a small moving target in an FPS. And you need to do it more often, faster.
Personally, I'd argue for choosing the speed at which the player (who in almost all cases is not ForGG) can be quite accurate (minesweeper is a great test - if you don't feel relaxed and comfortable doing speed runs on minesweeper, your mouse sensitivity is too high and is hindering your accuracy). You can always just move your arm fast for a box. And if you need big boxes, you're doing it wrong. Mineral lines should be selected with a double click (high accuracy), while army groups should be appropriately hot-keyed. At 800 DPI a corner to corner diagonal movement across a screen should only take a 3-inch movement anyway.
Also, high sensitivity can also promote repetitive stress problems from tense hands straining for precision. Again, you need to pick a speed you can be relaxed and natural at.
Then again, if the mouse requires interpolation to get to 1600 DPI, that's bad. I don't know if that's the case though.
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Well mouse sensitivity is and always will be personal preference, but the Kana having far worse accuracy at 1600 dpi than my old school mx518 is simply fact. So at the end of the day if you want a mouse that will perform well at dpi above 800 then the kana is not that. If you want pictures I can show you comparisons in paint, very disappointing  . I'm still waiting for a response from Steelseries about the jump bug and poor tracking at higher dpi but I have a feeling I will be sending this mouse back for a refund.
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On January 13 2012 03:03 MisterFred wrote:
...
I am interested in how the Sensei is a better 9500 sensor option than others. I've considered buying a Naos 5000 so I can try out 2300-2500 DPI in the future (on a larger resolution screen than I have currently) without interpolation.
For a critical test of the Sensei I recommend Skylits Thread on overclock.net.
On January 13 2012 09:00 MisterFred wrote:
From what I understand, everyone says that Pixart sensor is great, except for a bug where, on 1-5% of exactly vertical strokes (or a couple of times during a multi-hour gaming session), it'll jump some number of pixels to the right for no apparent reason. ...
Concerning the PixArt sensor: Reproducing the jump bugs is a matter of a minute or two according to an experienced tester. Also: some people reported inferior tracking quality overall - but as I didn't have a mouse with a PixArt sensor i can't comment on this. My guess is that only very experienced people (when it comes to mice) are able to feel this.
On January 13 2012 13:32 MisterFred wrote:
Not necessarily. People who can be pin-point accurate at high mouse sensitivity have a physical gift some of us just don't have. And I'm far more worried about my pin-point accuracy (feedback infestors, snipe ghosts/banes, marine target-fire banes, nucro hurt zerglings away from an early zealot) than I am about making boxes (sending workers to mine, splitting marines, setting up concaves). Precision requirements are a tad lower for SC2 than FPS, but clicking on a baneling is not that much easier than hitting a small moving target in an FPS. And you need to do it more often, faster.
Personally, I'd argue for choosing the speed at which the player (who in almost all cases is not ForGG) can be quite accurate (minesweeper is a great test - if you don't feel relaxed and comfortable doing speed runs on minesweeper, your mouse sensitivity is too high and is hindering your accuracy). You can always just move your arm fast for a box. And if you need big boxes, you're doing it wrong. Mineral lines should be selected with a double click (high accuracy), while army groups should be appropriately hot-keyed. At 800 DPI a corner to corner diagonal movement across a screen should only take a 3-inch movement anyway.
Also, high sensitivity can also promote repetitive stress problems from tense hands straining for precision. Again, you need to pick a speed you can be relaxed and natural at.
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Excelent post again 
Most SC 2 players play with a sensitivity which is too high, because they think they need to be fast. I tested this myself for several months and I hated it. It was extremely hard to make precise movements while using a high CPI value (I was testing 1800 and 3500 CPI, if I remember correctly). Also my hand used to tense up. It might seem paradox at first glance, but when you're moving your hand like crazy (because you use low CPI) this is way more healthy for your hand compared to hardly moving your hand at all (because you use high CPI). I also tested 400 CPI (screen resolution 1600x1200) for a few days, but aborted the test because it simply was to much hand movement for me.
On January 13 2012 14:13 Neurosis wrote:
Well mouse sensitivity is and always will be personal preference ...
Extremely dangerous comment. As are the comments which state that choosing a mouse shape is entirely up to preference.
For example: a long time shooter player was playing CS at 200 CPI and palm gripping an enormous and heavy mouse. For some reason, he never wants to play CS again, but instead starts with SC 2. Should he stick with his personal preference of 200 CPI and palm gripping an enormous and heavy mouse? Or should he maybe try out 400 and 800 CPI as well as a small and light weight mouse combined with the fingertip grip?
A lot of people do things, because they started doing them in some specific way and then they stuck with it, blacking out the alternatives because it's comfortable. After some time they defend "their way" to protect their ego. You cannot tell those people to completely trust themselves and ignore all other opinions.
If high jumpers would be doing only what's convenient, they would still jump legs-up - because it seemed natural at first glance. Why bother exercising way more complicated techniques?
Of course there is room for personal preference. But this personal preference should be regulary questioned.
It is my opionion for example, that fingertip gripping a light mouse while using relatively low CPI (say 400-2000, dependant on your screen resolution) is superior to palmgripping a heavy mouse while using 3000 CPI. Period. I don't have a problem with someone saying he prefers 800 to 1200 CPI or he likes a mouse which is a little bit wider (because he has huge hands). There will always be personal preferences - but only to a certain degree.
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How in the world can you play sc2 with 400 or 800 dpi (I'm assuming you use 6/11 windows sens and disable sc2's in game sensitivity). What league are you in Blue? That is just way too slow for 1920x1080.
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I'm so conflicted I want to buy the Kana simply because of the design, it's just shaped the way I want it, then again every review I've read so far is a poor one. I even told people on the Steelseries wall not to buy it because it is a flawed product according to those who have it, and Steelseries replied with a sarcastic comment, I was a little harsh, but they deceive the community with their marketing manager running around acting cute and trying to sell their product using sincerity. I want to believe that Steelseries will fix it, but they have a reputation for not updating their firmware, and furthermore the marketing manager Kim Rom, who hyped it around overclock, lied about not knowing the jump bug, when asked on twitter if he knew about it, replying that he's only heard 'rumours' of it, when all three beta testers told him about the bug through two versions of the mouse. Also, UPE Teflon is plastic mixed with teflon, answering your questions on why it's plastic and not teflon. A beta tester saw a Kinsu v2 in the wild and said that the retail version was the same build of the beta version.
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On January 13 2012 23:45 Neurosis wrote:
How in the world can you play sc2 with 400 or 800 dpi (I'm assuming you use 6/11 windows sens and disable sc2's in game sensitivity). What league are you in Blue? That is just way too slow for 1920x1080.
At the moment I'm using 800 CPI with 6/11 on 1600x1200 and disabled in game sensitivity. That is in fact no problem at all. I think I could handle 700 or even 6xx CPI, but I don't have a mouse which I could adjust that precise. 400 CPI (450 to be precise) however proved to be too low for me. I repeatedly had to lift off my mouse and moving my hand so much was really tiring. Maybe someone with bigger hands could handle 450 CPI after all, though.
I'm Diamond (1v1) and Master (2v2) at the moment, but I don't have played that much games in SC 2 yet (I'm busy testing mice ).
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On January 14 2012 01:48 nOondn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 23:45 Neurosis wrote:
How in the world can you play sc2 with 400 or 800 dpi (I'm assuming you use 6/11 windows sens and disable sc2's in game sensitivity). What league are you in Blue? That is just way too slow for 1920x1080. 800 dpi 1920x1080 .. GM in sea, Master in Kr and NA sup ?.
Whats your accnt? Also do you stream, would like to see that in action. Honestly I just wouldn't be able to do that. I used to be GM on NA ladder but I quit playing a while back for what it's worth.
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Quoting myself "I'm assuming you use 6/11 windows sens and disable sc2's in game sensitivity"
800 dpi and then a 71 percent increase in game is not what I was talking about at all.
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On January 13 2012 02:48 zoLo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 21:46 Khenra wrote:On January 12 2012 18:16 zoLo wrote:
How is the weight of a Deathadder and Abyssus? I am using it primarily for SC2 and BF3 and I want a mouse that is balanced. Not too heavy or too light. Abyssus is SUPER light. Like 70 grams I think. Deathadder is kinda heavy, ~120 grams (not exactly sure). I'm actually looking for something in between, 80-90 grams would be optimal I think. Haven't found one yet How is the comfort though? I am a palm grip player and I am currently using a small mouse. Using a palm grip on a small mouse isn't too bad for me and it feels comfortable. So far, I've seen a lot of reviews that praise the Deathadder while the Abyssus is getting okay ratings on average.
The worst part about the Abyssus is the fact that the right mouse button is too easy to click. You definitely cannot rest your fingers on it, because you will click it. So it is definitely not palm grip proof.
I am currently using the Deathadder. It is a bit too big and heavy for my taste, but I haven't found a smaller/lighter mouse with an adequate sensor yet. I might go for the Sensei and take the accelleration for granted..
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EPT
