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So I am looking to purchase a Desktop that will run SC2 in the Spring and to start this off I would like to first purchase a Razer mouse that I can use with my current computer and Brood War.
Now I currently use a Logitech Laser mouse like this one:
http://www.bettymills.com/shop/product/view/Logitech/LOG910000594.html?source=froogle2&utm_source=froogle2&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=parts&utm_keyword=LOG910000594&utm_content=Office
But I am looking to upgrade this to the Salmosa, the Death Adder, or the Abyssus.
I went to Best Buy today and did get to hold a Death Adder and thought the grip on it was very comfortable but felt that the $60 price tag was a bit much to just buy something without scoping out all the options Razer has to offer.
So I'm looking for something that is good for RTS's since that is currently all I use my PC to play. And looking back on the Death Adder I think those side buttons would only get in the way during play and make the grip feel uncomfortable during tense play.
For anyone that owns an Abyssus, Death Adder or Salmosa(have owned more than 1) please give me your experience with your mice. As I really enjoy the aesthetic properties of Razer mice and have only heard good things about them from TL members.
Thank you in advance for your help.
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You've only heard good things about them from TL members? You clearly haven't read any of the mouse threads..
Edit:
What grip do you use?
What previous mice have you owned and how did you like those?
Are you picky about the sensor, i.e. do you care about correction/prediction and/or angle snapping?
What mousing surface do you use and are you willing to change it?
What mouse sensitivity do you have set in Windows?
Etcetcetcetcetc..
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I've owned the diamondback, death adder, lachesis, and now an abysus. Usually with rts games people use a fingertip grip(myself included). Thats why it took me so long to find a mice that I loved, but the abyssus was finally the one that just felt right. lachesis felt slow and steady but not quick enough for my rts gaming. The deathadder grip just didn't feel comfertable when playing on a high sensitivity. The diamond back felt pretty good but i'd have to semi claw it to get a good grip, which i didnt like. Abyssus is the one i can fingertip grip perfectly with and have as good accuracy as i want. I hope this helps.
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On November 28 2010 10:18 Thrill wrote:
You've only heard good things about them from TL members? You clearly haven't read any of the mouse threads..
Edit:
What grip do you use?
What previous mice have you owned and how did you like those?
Are you picky about the sensor, i.e. do you care about correction/prediction and/or angle snapping?
What mousing surface do you use and are you willing to change it?
What mouse sensitivity do you have set in Windows?
Etcetcetcetcetc..
I use something between the fingertip grip and the palm grip. My palm rest slightly on the back of the mouse but not fully during rapid movement and I move the mouse with my fingers and not my elbow or shoulder.
I've use the mouse I have listed in the OP and a cheap mini opitical for laptop and I much prefer the current mouse i am using over the mini.
I do not care about the sensor as I really don't know the differences in sensors. Just looking for something stylish and comfortable really.
I currently use a small fabric mouse pad that's pretty much standard with any computer and I have been looking at the aluminium mouse mats razer sells and will be probably getting one of those with my desktop in the future.
My sensitivity is higher than normal but I don't know what kind of number you're asking for.
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Honestly DeathAdder is you're best bet. At least of anything you will find in retail stores. The other ones tend to be a bit overpriced. I usually always recommend the DeathAdder no matter what grip as well.
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Based on your answers there, I'd recommend the Abyssus. The mice that I've used, In chronological order, are Logitech MX518, Razer Copperhead, Logitech Mini Optical, Razer Salmosa, A cheap Microsoft mouse that I can't remember the name which was terrible, and now Razer Abyssus. Out of all of them, the Salmosa and Abyssus are by far my favorite, Abyssus being the favorite of the two (they're very similar anyway). I use just about the same style grip as you described, at 1800 DPI on 1920x1080 res with windows mouse sensitivity at the 6th tick, and no razer drivers installed.
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Ok between the Abyssus and Death adder now.
Poll: Which Mouse to buy?Death Adder (26) 41% Abyssus (22) 34% Become progamer and try them all. (16) 25% 64 total votes Your vote: Which Mouse to buy? (Vote): Abyssus
(Vote): Death Adder
(Vote): Become progamer and try them all.
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I use the same type of grip as you and have been using the MX518. I recently decided, through research on TL and elsewhere, to go with the DeathAdder as my next mouse. I'd highly recommend that. When people talk about the Salmosa and such, they are smaller and meant for more of a fingertip grip. I think you'd like a bigger mouse like me.
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Go with the deathadder. I went through 10 or so logitech mice before this baby. Never broke down on me. Feels like it's brand new.
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probably the death addler... Though I do think logitechs MX 518 is pretty amazing.. I've had this mouse for the past 6 years and it still hasn't died on me somehow. My cousin has it too and is a pretty hardcore gamer.
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Logitech is MUCH higher quality.
I had a Imperator which is more expensive than a deathadder, and it pooped out after 3 months because of buggy drivers and firmware.
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Death Adder is the best quality Razer product... I don't know why people just compare prices instead of the product. The Imperator is known to be one of the worse Razer mice. Price means nothing.
Even if I don't use the side buttons for gaming, and never have, it's still a great mouse. I think you're looking at the wrong place however, since they usually only cost $40. Mine was $25. The weight of the Logitech mice turned me off.
My pivot is the palm of my hand. Fingers move the mouse around.
The only thing you can do is try them out. Ask your friends, go to a LAN, ask in store. It's your mouse. Let no one tell you otherwise.
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On November 28 2010 12:53 vica wrote:
Death Adder is the best quality Razer product... I don't know why people just compare prices instead of the product. The Imperator is known to be one of the worse Razer mice. Price means nothing.
Even if I don't use the side buttons for gaming, and never have, it's still a great mouse. I think you're looking at the wrong place however, since they usually only cost $40. Mine was $25. The weight of the Logitech mice turned me off.
My pivot is the palm of my hand. Fingers move the mouse around.
The only thing you can do is try them out. Ask your friends, go to a LAN, ask in store. It's your mouse. Let no one tell you otherwise.
O_O I've looked and the cheapest I can find is like $45. (And the $60 was in Best Buy)
Edit: found it for $40.
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Go for Logitech, either G9x or G700 depending on how you prefer to hold your mouse.
Razer products are just overpriced and junky.
Google "razer z-axis", "razer phillips twin eye" etc for why or just read some of the other mouse threads in TL.
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Abyssus cause its epic for finger griperz
bought Deathadder to my brother and he is really happy with it (he use palm)
You can go wrong with Razer you will be always happy but you can be happier : )
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deathadder is a cheap copy of the intelli 3.0.
its heavy and the grip is very high so u will most likely have to use palmgrip to not risk RSI.
its mostly used by FPS players (big heavy / steady aim) but i cannot recommend it for RTS like bw or sc2 because those game require quick precise movements in every direction unlike shooters which require you to mostly use the mouse for left and right turns.
I have the abyssus myself and ive never been so happy with a mouse before. saLmosa and abyssus have almost the same shape so you cant go wrong with either of them.
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Death Adder was my first gaming mouse and i find it awesome.
It feels really comfortable and the two side buttons are actually really handy!
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On November 28 2010 17:08 vek wrote:
Go for Logitech, either G9x or G700 depending on how you prefer to hold your mouse.
Razer products are just overpriced and junky.
Google "razer z-axis", "razer phillips twin eye" etc for why or just read some of the other mouse threads in TL.
why should someone who only plays rts care about issues with the z-axis?
unfortunately, there are only 2 major manufacturers of laser mice sensors, philips and avago. both their current flagship sensors, which together make up about 80-90% of all modern mice from mainstream companies like logitech, razer or roccat, have their issues. the recent philips sensor, which is used in most recent razer mice, has issues with z-axis instability. this means that when lifting the mouse, the cursor will move. this is very bad for fps gamers who frequently lift their mouse, but i dont see why it should be bad for rts gamers.
the avago sensor, which is used for example in the g9x, g500, xai and kone[+], has a very minor, built-in acceleration which cant be turned off. this again is very bad for those fps gamers who use low sens, but pretty much any rts gamer should be using high sens anyway where this is not really a problem unless u are very very allergic when it comes to acceleration.
basically, if u use a somewhat high sens (1200 dpi +) and only play rts games, the sensor and the issues it could potentially have shouldnt be of concern. therefore, my advice for the TS is to simply pick the mouse which feels most comfortable for u. from my experience, the deathadder design is very nice for any gripstyle that is close to a palmgrip, while the shape of the abyssus is nice for those whose gripstyle is closest to a fingertip grip.
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On November 29 2010 00:41 Black Gun wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2010 17:08 vek wrote:
Go for Logitech, either G9x or G700 depending on how you prefer to hold your mouse.
Razer products are just overpriced and junky.
Google "razer z-axis", "razer phillips twin eye" etc for why or just read some of the other mouse threads in TL. why should someone who only plays rts care about issues with the z-axis? unfortunately, there are only 2 major manufacturers of laser mice sensors, philips and avago. both their current flagship sensors, which together make up about 80-90% of all modern mice from mainstream companies like logitech, razer or roccat, have their issues. the recent philips sensor, which is used in most recent razer mice, has issues with z-axis instability. this means that when lifting the mouse, the cursor will move. this is very bad for fps gamers who frequently lift their mouse, but i dont see why it should be bad for rts gamers. the avago sensor, which is used for example in the g9x, g500, xai and kone[+], has a very minor, built-in acceleration which cant be turned off. this again is very bad for those fps gamers who use low sens, but pretty much any rts gamer should be using high sens anyway where this is not really a problem unless u are very very allergic when it comes to acceleration. basically, if u use a somewhat high sens (1200 dpi +) and only play rts games, the sensor and the issues it could potentially have shouldnt be of concern. therefore, my advice for the TS is to simply pick the mouse which feels most comfortable for u. from my experience, the deathadder design is very nice for any gripstyle that is close to a palmgrip, while the shape of the abyssus is nice for those whose gripstyle is closest to a fingertip grip.
The Z-Axis problem is so bad at DPI over ~1600 that you get movement in the mouse pointer when you click the mouse button on a soft mouse pad. The only way to stop this is to use a hard surface pad or avoid the PTE sensor. This is pretty important for.. everything because a click turns into a click drag. I would even have trouble clicking icons on my desktop using Razer's own mousepad.
I've owned 3 PTE mice. 1 Razer, 1 Genius and 1 Coolermaster. They all had this problem on my soft mouse pad.
Logitech on the other hand is great, the latest Avago has no acceleration or prediction. Providing you turn them off like you say.
I also have a friend who owned an Abyssus where the plastic housing under the left click button came loose and made it extremely frustrating to use. It's not just the sensor, the whole deal is bad with Razer. The only reason people buy them is because of the marketing "for gamers by gamers" crap. It worked on me too, that's why I bought mine. I've learned from my mistakes and I'm tryinig to prevent people from making the same. They are just honestly the cheapest made and worst designed (sup RSI) products you could possibly get.
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On November 29 2010 09:10 vek wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 00:41 Black Gun wrote:On November 28 2010 17:08 vek wrote:
Go for Logitech, either G9x or G700 depending on how you prefer to hold your mouse.
Razer products are just overpriced and junky.
Google "razer z-axis", "razer phillips twin eye" etc for why or just read some of the other mouse threads in TL. why should someone who only plays rts care about issues with the z-axis? unfortunately, there are only 2 major manufacturers of laser mice sensors, philips and avago. both their current flagship sensors, which together make up about 80-90% of all modern mice from mainstream companies like logitech, razer or roccat, have their issues. the recent philips sensor, which is used in most recent razer mice, has issues with z-axis instability. this means that when lifting the mouse, the cursor will move. this is very bad for fps gamers who frequently lift their mouse, but i dont see why it should be bad for rts gamers. the avago sensor, which is used for example in the g9x, g500, xai and kone[+], has a very minor, built-in acceleration which cant be turned off. this again is very bad for those fps gamers who use low sens, but pretty much any rts gamer should be using high sens anyway where this is not really a problem unless u are very very allergic when it comes to acceleration. basically, if u use a somewhat high sens (1200 dpi +) and only play rts games, the sensor and the issues it could potentially have shouldnt be of concern. therefore, my advice for the TS is to simply pick the mouse which feels most comfortable for u. from my experience, the deathadder design is very nice for any gripstyle that is close to a palmgrip, while the shape of the abyssus is nice for those whose gripstyle is closest to a fingertip grip. The Z-Axis problem is so bad at DPI over ~1600 that you get movement in the mouse pointer when you click the mouse button on a soft mouse pad. The only way to stop this is to use a hard surface pad or avoid the PTE sensor. This is pretty important for.. everything because a click turns into a click drag. I would even have trouble clicking icons on my desktop using Razer's own mousepad.I've owned 3 PTE mice. 1 Razer, 1 Genius and 1 Coolermaster. They all had this problem on my soft mouse pad. Logitech on the other hand is great, the latest Avago has no acceleration or prediction. Providing you turn them off like you say. I also have a friend who owned an Abyssus where the plastic housing under the left click button came loose and made it extremely frustrating to use. It's not just the sensor, the whole deal is bad with Razer. The only reason people buy them is because of the marketing "for gamers by gamers" crap. It worked on me too, that's why I bought mine. I've learned from my mistakes and I'm tryinig to prevent people from making the same. They are just honestly the cheapest made and worst designed (sup RSI) products you could possibly get.
I use a Steelseries QCK Mini mousepad, soft cloth. My Razer Copperhead, Salmosa, and Abyssus don't move a single pixel when I click any buttons (including wheel), even if I pound the buttons rapidly at 3500 DPI on the Abyssus. Also never had problems with anything coming loose. I won't deny that some people will have problems, but after five years of Starcraft I've never had a problem. I also have no issues lifting and moving the mouse.
I will agree that Logitech is great, but Razer is not nearly as bad as you're putting it.
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Its so good how much people know about this stuff on this forum.
I recently bought a SteelSeries Xai that I have been quite happy with and I do feel like its a good mouse. I have noticed some problems with its tracking particularly on the Y axis, after reading this thread it might be attributed to the fact that I'm using it at about 17/1800ish dpi. I might just lower it down a notch.
The problem feels like the tracking hits a wall or something, other problems might be my mouse pad which is pretty old and dirty now. Its some kind of Razer Goliahtus or something.
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On November 29 2010 09:10 vek wrote:The Z-Axis problem is so bad at DPI over ~1600 that you get movement in the mouse pointer when you click the mouse button on a soft mouse pad. The only way to stop this is to use a hard surface pad or avoid the PTE sensor. This is pretty important for.. everything because a click turns into a click drag. I would even have trouble clicking icons on my desktop using Razer's own mousepad.
I had this problem on my lachesis but I recently got a death adder and no longer have this problem. Maybe they fixed it?
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On November 29 2010 11:25 velo wrote:
Its so good how much people know about this stuff on this forum.
I recently bought a SteelSeries Xai that I have been quite happy with and I do feel like its a good mouse. I have noticed some problems with its tracking particularly on the Y axis, after reading this thread it might be attributed to the fact that I'm using it at about 17/1800ish dpi. I might just lower it down a notch.
The problem feels like the tracking hits a wall or something, other problems might be my mouse pad which is pretty old and dirty now. Its some kind of Razer Goliahtus or something.
the avago 9500 sensor, which is the one built in in the xai, is very sensible to dust. it only works well on a really clean surface.
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abyssus. its more affordable and everything u need. you dont need side buttons or any of that crap, its all the high tech tracking etc u want packaged into a simple design, perfect for RTS imo.
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On November 29 2010 13:52 Subversion wrote:
abyssus. its more affordable and everything u need. you dont need side buttons or any of that crap, its all the high tech tracking etc u want packaged into a simple design, perfect for RTS imo.
technically u might be right, but i still disagree strongly. who uses his mouse exclusively for gaming? everyone of us is surfing the web all the time, probably at least 30 minutes a day. sidebuttons for forward and backward browsing is very very nice, a feature i wouldnt want to miss anymore.
for me personally, a mouse without sidebuttons is a no-go.
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On November 29 2010 09:10 vek wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 00:41 Black Gun wrote:On November 28 2010 17:08 vek wrote:
Go for Logitech, either G9x or G700 depending on how you prefer to hold your mouse.
Razer products are just overpriced and junky.
Google "razer z-axis", "razer phillips twin eye" etc for why or just read some of the other mouse threads in TL. why should someone who only plays rts care about issues with the z-axis? unfortunately, there are only 2 major manufacturers of laser mice sensors, philips and avago. both their current flagship sensors, which together make up about 80-90% of all modern mice from mainstream companies like logitech, razer or roccat, have their issues. the recent philips sensor, which is used in most recent razer mice, has issues with z-axis instability. this means that when lifting the mouse, the cursor will move. this is very bad for fps gamers who frequently lift their mouse, but i dont see why it should be bad for rts gamers. the avago sensor, which is used for example in the g9x, g500, xai and kone[+], has a very minor, built-in acceleration which cant be turned off. this again is very bad for those fps gamers who use low sens, but pretty much any rts gamer should be using high sens anyway where this is not really a problem unless u are very very allergic when it comes to acceleration. basically, if u use a somewhat high sens (1200 dpi +) and only play rts games, the sensor and the issues it could potentially have shouldnt be of concern. therefore, my advice for the TS is to simply pick the mouse which feels most comfortable for u. from my experience, the deathadder design is very nice for any gripstyle that is close to a palmgrip, while the shape of the abyssus is nice for those whose gripstyle is closest to a fingertip grip. The Z-Axis problem is so bad at DPI over ~1600 that you get movement in the mouse pointer when you click the mouse button on a soft mouse pad. The only way to stop this is to use a hard surface pad or avoid the PTE sensor. This is pretty important for.. everything because a click turns into a click drag. I would even have trouble clicking icons on my desktop using Razer's own mousepad.I've owned 3 PTE mice. 1 Razer, 1 Genius and 1 Coolermaster. They all had this problem on my soft mouse pad. Logitech on the other hand is great, the latest Avago has no acceleration or prediction. Providing you turn them off like you say. I also have a friend who owned an Abyssus where the plastic housing under the left click button came loose and made it extremely frustrating to use. It's not just the sensor, the whole deal is bad with Razer. The only reason people buy them is because of the marketing "for gamers by gamers" crap. It worked on me too, that's why I bought mine. I've learned from my mistakes and I'm tryinig to prevent people from making the same. They are just honestly the cheapest made and worst designed (sup RSI) products you could possibly get.
I have a deathadder, haven't had this problem. I run on 1800 dpi and use a soft pad.
I own two copies of the mouse. In one of them the clicker on the left mouse button got stuck and I had to open the mouse up and stick some oil in the little part. Other than that, never had a problem.
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I love the Abyssus, definitely the best mouse I've had yet. Though, when I downloaded and installed the driver for my laptop, it started blue screening my laptop frequently... especially when I disconnected and reconnected it frequently. Uninstalled it since then and it's been fine. Kinda weird that it works better without the actual driver.
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On November 28 2010 17:08 vek wrote:
Go for Logitech, either G9x or G700 depending on how you prefer to hold your mouse.
Razer products are just overpriced and junky.
Google "razer z-axis", "razer phillips twin eye" etc for why or just read some of the other mouse threads in TL.
I've had my razer copperhead for like 5 years or something and it's still awesome, lots of wear and tear on it, and ALL buttons click nicely when pressed and even the scroller still "ticks" when you scroll it.
I don't know about Logitech's mouses, but their headphones are shit...I've had probably 5 pairs of this headset and am looking to get a new more than $30 pair for xmas
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On November 30 2010 09:05 Silidons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2010 17:08 vek wrote:
Go for Logitech, either G9x or G700 depending on how you prefer to hold your mouse.
Razer products are just overpriced and junky.
Google "razer z-axis", "razer phillips twin eye" etc for why or just read some of the other mouse threads in TL. I've had my razer copperhead for like 5 years or something and it's still awesome, lots of wear and tear on it, and ALL buttons click nicely when pressed and even the scroller still "ticks" when you scroll it. I don't know about Logitech's mouses, but their headphones are shit...I've had probably 5 pairs of this headset and am looking to get a new more than $30 pair for xmas
The Copperhead is LED Optical, it uses an older Avago sensor (but still a solid one), it does not use the Phillips Twin Eye sensor which is why it would be a lot better than the newer "3G/3.5G" Razer mice.
And yeah cheap Logitech headphones are shit but so are all of them. You get what you pay for. All Logitech keyboards are overpriced and shit and I would never buy one. They make great mice though.
On November 29 2010 10:39 G_G wrote:I use a Steelseries QCK Mini mousepad, soft cloth. My Razer Copperhead, Salmosa, and Abyssus don't move a single pixel when I click any buttons (including wheel), even if I pound the buttons rapidly at 3500 DPI on the Abyssus. Also never had problems with anything coming loose. I won't deny that some people will have problems, but after five years of Starcraft I've never had a problem. I also have no issues lifting and moving the mouse. I will agree that Logitech is great, but Razer is not nearly as bad as you're putting it.
Again, all three of those mice do not use the PTE sensor I am warning people about so you are safe  They all use Avago, same as Logitech.
--- More random information for other people ---
https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0AosJbEwEG9GpdEpBMGc1ZXo0S3BLQm1YQ09jeVZ6bEE&w=100&h=650
This spreadsheet is great for people hunting for a new mouse. You want to look for a mouse that:
- Doesn't use Phillips Twin Eye
- Doesn't have prediction or at least gives you an option to turn it off.
- At least 1000 DPI which is around the minimum you can get away with at 1920x1080 (in CS at least) for per pixel accuracy at the same sens as 400 DPI @ 640x480.
- Once you've narrowed them down it's time to look at the shape/price/features and decide from there.
http://www.users.on.net/~frankros/DPI-calc.php - Great calculator for CS sensitivity settings.
I use 1200 DPI personally, I find it gives me enough accuracy and sensitivity to be able to move the mouse the entire height and length of the screen at 1920x1080 without picking up my mouse and repositioning it.
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I have a salmosa and its great for the price I payed (18.37 on woot.com) but I would NEVER pay the 40 dollars they want for it. Same for the death adder if you choose it Wait on Woot.com or midnightbox or some other various deal a day site to get it for 20 dollars like my friend did with his death adder,using a cheap optical mouse like a LMO (9.99 on Target.com when in stock). Razer products arn't all that great for their price (or that durable but that could be their headsets which I will never buy again might I add >.>) and for a pad id get a steelseries QcK probably a better investment than the razer mouse pads.
(sorry if this isn't very easy to read im rather tired.)
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speaking of razer, anyone having trouble navigating through some of their pages? been trying to click pre order razer spectre all day but the page takes forever to load, then finally it doesnt even load.
its only that page too the other pages of razer work fine wtf
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I've got a DeathAdder and I use it on full 3500 DPI and 1000 Hz refresh, and I've never had a problem with any of the axes like some of the people ITT had.... Maybe I'm lucky, but maybe the fact that I use a hard mousepad has something to do with it.
I got some random Office Depot mousepad that says "AllSoP" on it, feels great and has tracked very very very well so far.
The only complaint I have with the DeathAdder is that it's a little too large for my liking. I use a pure fingertip grip (only five points of contact with the mouse), and it's a little awkward for that. My next mouse after this one inevitably dies will likely be the Razer mobility gaming one, since I've heard that's nice and compact. If I find it too small, I'll probably go back to the DA, since it's worked great so far.
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I had a lachesis before, and have a lot of problems as the cursor would move when i tried to click a specific area. Fortunately my cat put me out of my misery by eating the cable (not breaded back then), and i bough a Deathadder respawn instead.
That mouse is just great, not to expensive, confortable (yeah if you like palm grip), not too many button but the 2 additional side buttons are handy, and the 3500 dpi is more than enough for me.
But as other ppl pointed out, it's kind of big (though not as much as an ikari or a kone i think), so if you have small hand or don't like palm grip, stuff like the abyssus or orochi could suit you better. The mirror abyssus looks pretty cool.
And i know..Razer is about the look etc...Well, that doesn't hurt to buy some nice looking gear once in a while.
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EPT
