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On August 08 2011 23:09 Madoga wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 20:49 gruff wrote:
I've been noticing that in comparisson to a lot of other sites I've been reading, lower wattage psu's are being recommended for basically the same setups in this thread. Here the XFX 450 W is often recommended while it's often 600-700 W on other sites I've been reading. Are they just being careful? Is there any benefit of except the costs to lie closer to the real power consumption? If you are planning to have the computer for a long time isn't better to chose a larger power supply to leave room for future upgrades and (maybe?) some loss in efficiency? A quick google seems to suggest there isn't much downsides to having a larger psu than needed. Or is it more a matter of quality, like the XFX being able to deliver the right wattage, amps and such as worse psu's with higher wattage? What other sites? Those other sites either dont know what they are talking about, are stuck in the past or are super mega ultra extra safe. The xfx core 450W has more A over the 12V line than most 500W or even some 550W PSU's. Besides that, its of good quality and its cheap. A system these days with a single GPU doesn't even draw 400W(very high end system with a GTX 580 might draw more), so the xfx 450W does the job for most systems. As for the upgrade path, newer components often use less power, so you dont need more Watt for that. The downside of buying more wattage PSU is that you spent extra money that you dont have to. If you go way overboard you even lose in efficiency. Overall its better to buy a quality PSU with a lower wattage than a PSU of less quality with a higher wattage.
I don't remember any specific names of the sites. I was just browsing around of diffrent sites and forums reading what advice people give. I didn't check the dates of everything so maybe some of it were literary "stuck in the past."  Though I'm quite certain there were many modern configurations.
Thanks for the answer.
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5930 Posts
~500W is the max you ever need for a two PCIe system. A typical system draws less than 250W from the wall. I mean for christ's sake, what power supplies do you think Apple puts inside their i7 2600 + HD6990M + 27" IPS monitor iMacs?
Anyway, we recommend low wattage power supplies because of how power supply efficiency works: power supplies are most efficient at around 50% load so if you do the math, its not a lot of power. Consumer systems spend 99% of the time idle, drawing like 130W max, so you buy power supplies that are suited for your load as well as capable of sustaining decent loads when the GPU is working; professional computing will require huge power supplies because they spend the majority of their time under load - each respective person would buy the power supplies right for their purpose.
People forget that the GPU is like the most useless item in a computer. It spends the majority of its life completely idle and doing nothing.
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Yeah I believe you, I'm just trying get some form of filter in my head so I know what to trust and not to trust before I start looking into buying stuff. I think one of the reasons why some people tend to go for higher psu's is the "recommended power" (or however you write it in english) for gpus and other parts that some stores specify. I'm looking through a few swedish sites that sell gpu's and it says like 400-500 W on most of them, the higher tier even more.
Like for a HD6870 it says 500 W and on the previous page there is a suggestion for a comp with a HD6870 with a 450 W psu.
If you go to AMD's site it says the same about it under system requirements:
■500 Watt or greater power supply with two 75W 6-pin PCI Express® power connectors recommended (600 Watt and four 6-pin connectors for AMD CrossFireX™ technology in dual mode)
It's just these mixed messages that can sometime be confusing (and I'm assuming is behind some people recommending larger power supplies)
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That recomendation has to take acount for all bad/old PSU's out there and all kinds of system configurations.
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Yeah, that's AMD, Nvidia, and the video card manufacturers trying to account for (1) power supplies that say they can do X but really can't, (2) having no idea what your CPU or hard drives are, so assuming a worst-case scenario, and (3) being conservative so any blame is on the customer rather than them.
If you overclock an i5-2500k a lot, it will take maybe 100W on full load. A GTX 580 uses about 290W in the worst case scenario super-unrealistic stress test, unless you overclock it. Hard drives tend to use under 10W each in normal usage (maybe 25W when spinning up, depending on the model), with SSDs at a couple watts or less. Fans are generally a couple watts max, depending on the model. RAM is a few watts each, and all the components on the motherboard combined are maybe a couple/few dozen watts (or less) depending on the model. So who needs really high wattages, unless you're running multiple GPUs?
Unless you load up your computer 24/7 with distributed computing projects, most of the time it's idle and won't really be stressing the power supply.
If you get a decently-designed power supply built decently-well with reasonable silicon for the job, Japanese 105C rated capacitors, and a ball-bearing fan (e.g. XFX Core 450W, but not the Corsair CX430 V2, though the CX lineup has good performance), it really shouldn't be prone to failing anytime soon unless you're unlucky. These things, unlike power supplies with cheap components, shouldn't be degrading significantly over time, even under fairly heavy loads, unless you're talking well over five years maybe.
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5930 Posts
Yeah its confusing but there is a good reason for this. Listed wattage is irrelevant when it comes to power supplies, which is why CPU/GPU companies suggest such high figures to prevent stupid complaints and warranty lodgings. Here is what Tony Ou, from Silverstone who make some really slick cases and decent to good power supplies, has to say about power supplies:
To obtain safety certificates, the specification table and associate rating numbers on the power supply label must be accurate. The manufacturers are free to name the power supply any way they like however, so in this case, Cooler Master placed "500" next to the model name to suggest it as a 500W PSU (and sold as a 500W) as opposed to it being a 450W.
It’s a tough business competing in lower wattage range (500W & below) as every dollar counts so there are other types of over-labeling practices too. This is pretty bad for honest manufacturers that do not over-label on wattage and still have to compete on price. And to see Cooler Master trying to educate people with the wrong information, I just couldn’t stand it anymore.
What Tony has said is entirely true - many reputable companies (Cooler Master and even Corsair) over-label their power supplies to try and fool mainstream consumers. The XFX Core 450W pushes ~400W through the 12V rails while this Cooler Master "500W" PSU only has 360W through the 12V rails. The 12V rails power your main components like GPU and CPU.
Lots of people see Cooler Master as a reputable company and buy their pretty bad power supplies. AMD and nVidia list such high figures because of such companies releasing such misleading details: by listing high recommended values, they can't prevent people from lodging bogus warranty claims and contacting support. Each warranty claim prevented saves AMD and nVidia money so obviously they want to push the costs to consumers or the PSU manufacturer instead.
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Thanks for the explanations.
Over-labelling seems like something that shouldn't be allowed... In any case I guess the best solution is just to read up on it as a customer and not buy into the false marketing.
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On August 09 2011 00:57 gruff wrote:
Thanks for the explanations.
Over-labelling seems like something that shouldn't be allowed... In any case I guess the best solution is just to read up on it as a customer and not buy into the false marketing.
Yes, and this is one of the most common misconceptions/fears of people asking (and, sadly, sometimes giving) advice on these and (many other, I'm sure) tech support forums.
AMD/Nvidia will suggest "500W or greater" or "600W or greater", and people without technical knowledge (which is not a bad thing! just something else to learn) will get almost fear-mongered into buying a PSU that is completely overkill for their set-up (or even worse, a crappy "500W" unit for $25 that doesn't even provide 20-25A on the 12V rails, and has poor electrical performance).
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On August 08 2011 12:53 naolin wrote:+ Show Spoiler +What is your budget?
$1000-$1200 ~
What is your resolution?
Dual Monitors 1920x1080 x 2
What are you using it for?
Gaming, Watching HD video's, movies
What is your upgrade cycle?
3 years~
When do you plan on building it?
Soon prob this month
Do you plan on overclocking?
not unless i have to
Do you need an Operating System?
wife can get it for like 70 bucks at her university
Do you plan to add a second GPU for SLI or Crossfire?
no
Where are you buying your parts from?
newegg, frys or anywhere that you guys can recommend
any help would be appreciated
There's not much to do with such a large budget if you're not going to overclock. Dual monitors doesn't matter for the configuration unless you plan on doing Eyefinity which doesn't make sense since you'll be playing off center or playing with a bezel in the center. The second monitor having the desktop on it with instant messaging, browsing, and other desktop applications has no effect on performance.
Here's a configuration for $833 capable of playing current and upcoming games on reasonably high settings at 1080p:
Core i5 2500k @ $220
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115072
EVGA GTX 560 Ti -AR @ $240 ($215 after mail in rebate)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130604
Asrock P67 Pro3 @ $110
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157230
Corsair 2x4GB 1333MHz @ $49
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820233192
Samsung Spinpoint F3 1TB @ $50 (not sure how long this sale will last, regular price is usually $60)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822152185
XFX Core Edition Pro 450 @ $55 ($45 after mail in rebate)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817207012
Coolermaster HAF 912 @ $60
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119233
Xigmatek Gaia @ $30
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835233082
DVD Burner @ $19
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827136238
If you don't want to overclock than just remove the Xigmatek Gaia, replace the Asrock P67 Pro with a H61 or H67 motherboard such as the Asrock H61M U3S3, and replace the Core i5 2500k for a regular core i5 2500 with no suffix or a core i5 2400. This would take about $80 off the total.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115074
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157236
You could add in an SSD for faster load times and system responsiveness if you'd like to use your entire budget. An Intel 320 Series 80GB costs $160: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820167049 Other good choices include the samsung 470 Series and Crucial M4 series, the 64gb variants cost around $120 and the 128gb variants cost around $230.
You could also get a more expensive case or pick one to your liking. Remember that a case can be used again for future configurations and will last an entire lifetime (if ATX form factor never changes).
On August 08 2011 13:57 cory6114 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +What is your budget?
$700 less is possible
What is your resolution?
1920 x 1080 if possible.
What are you using it for?
I only want this PC for SC II, I don't play any other PC games I just need a PC to play SC II as best as possible for as cheap as possible.
What is your upgrade cycle?
Not planning on upgrading
When do you plan on building it?
With the next 2-3 months
Do you plan on overclocking?
Maybe
Do you need an Operating System?
No
Do you plan to add a second GPU for SLI or Crossfire?
No
Where are you buying your parts from?
Newegg
I only want this PC for Starcraft 2 and that is it, would like to play on High but I understand my budget is pretty low, would like to spend <$500 but would go up to $700. I'm only talking about the Computer no hardware. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
Here's an overclockable configuration for $657 capable of playing current and upcoming games on reasonably high settings at 1080p.
Core i5 2500k & MSI P67 C43 Bundle @ $315
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.660723
Sapphire Radeon HD6850 @ $165 ($150 after mail in rebate)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102908
Crucial 2x2GB 1333MHz @ $25
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148418
Western Digital Caviar Blue 500GB @ $43
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136769
+ Show Spoiler +
Antec Earthwatts 430D @ $44
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371034
Coolermaster HAF 912 @ $60
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119233
Xigmatek Gaia @ $30
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835233082
DVD Burner @ $19
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827136238
On August 08 2011 18:59 LolaLA wrote:+ Show Spoiler +What is your budget?
$800-$1000
but cheaper is always better
What is your resolution?
N/A
What are you using it for?
Gaming (Diablo 3/SC2), Adobe Photoshop/Illustrator
What is your upgrade cycle?
4 years
When do you plan on building it?
2-3 weeks
Do you plan on overclocking?
yes
Do you need an Operating System?
yes
Do you plan to add a second GPU for SLI or Crossfire?
o.O no?
Where are you buying your parts from?
I live in Newfoundland, Canada. I'd like to order from Canada to reduce shipping as much as possible, Newegg.ca or any other Canadian retailers.
Newegg is not a Canadian retailer. It has an Ontario warehouse but the majority of their components still ship from state side warehouses.
Ask again when you're purchasing since Canadian retailers pricematch and have weekly sales so pricing is inconsistent in comparison to American retailers. In the meantime, you can look at what has been recommended in the past for Canadians:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=137554¤tpage=453#9054
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=137554¤tpage=454#9065
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=137554¤tpage=460#9200
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=137554¤tpage=458#9146
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How well does SC2 run on integrated graphics? If I had an i5-2400 and no graphics card for example, could I run SC2 smoothly with minimum settings?
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On August 08 2011 05:33 skyR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 03:47 Blindo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +What is your budget?
500-700$
What is your resolution?
This is extremely important especially for a gaming machine. I see people all the time asking for a video card recommendation and 5 people reply "5850" and the person hasn't even given their gaming resolution; it turns out the person games at 1280x1024 and could have ended up wasting $200 on a card that is total and complete overkill for his resolution.
What are you using it for?
Mostly gaming, I have a laptop for school. I'd primarily like to play Starcraft 2/Diablo 3/The Witcher, and other new games with reasonably high settings.
What is your upgrade cycle?
2 Years
When do you plan on building it?
Anytime before December. I'm able to buy the parts and build it now, but I'm happy to wait a few months in order to get decent deals. If I could save maybe a 100$ or so I'd be willing to wait till the end of the year.
Do you plan on overclocking?
No.
Do you need an Operating System?
No, I can get a discounted one through my University.
Do you plan to add a second GPU for SLI or Crossfire?
No
Where are you buying your parts from?
Anywhere is fine, but I'd like to primarily focus on Newegg and Frys if there isn't a big difference between other retailers. I also live next to a Fry's microcenter as well, so I can drive there to get items as well. So what resolution do you plan to play at? You just went on to say how important this is but never actually mentioned the desired resolution you want to play games at. You can just use a modified build that was recommended by me for someone on the same page, total comes to $683 and is capable of playing current / upcoming games on reasonably high settings at 1080p. If you play at a lower resolution thana you could get a Radeon HD5770 or GTS 450 for around $120. You could go even lower if your desired settings are just low / medium. + Show Spoiler +
Thanks for the help, I guess I went ahead and copy and pasted the OP and forgot to add in the resolution. This was the build I was looking at before, so thanks for confirming that this is a good idea to go with.
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5930 Posts
Small resolutions you shouldn't do too badly. High resolutions you'll have trouble. Seriously though there isn't any reason for not getting a GPU because if you can't afford a $100 GPU like a HD5770, maybe you shouldn't buy a computer just yet.
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If it's just for gaming, you can just use a i3-2100 instead and redirect the $70 saved into a graphics card that can play pretty much all games on medium settings (HD 5670). I agree with Womwomwom's assessment though.
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it doesn't have to be that small no, just smaller than the standard towers, all though I think I could even get a mid-tower or small-towerish size and it'd still work.
I like those, except this time i'm trying to buy a pre-built comp instead of building it myself, since this is gonna be shipped to my college... don't wanna have to build it there
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NCIX is the recommended Canadian retailer. Best Direct and Direct Canada are sister companies of NCIX so if a component has the lowest price on one of these retailers and comes with free shipping, you can order from them as well to save on shipping if you don't mind dealing with multiple retailers / shipments / cc charges.
Pricematching can be done online, yes.
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On August 09 2011 03:37 Womwomwom wrote:
Small resolutions you shouldn't do too badly. High resolutions you'll have trouble. Seriously though there isn't any reason for not getting a GPU because if you can't afford a $100 GPU like a HD5770, maybe you shouldn't buy a computer just yet.
I realize that having a GPU is preferred, but what if I'm looking for a laptop and it only has integrated graphics? I'm considering getting a laptop for school (I have a gaming computer at home), so I just need sc2 to be playable. Would the Sandy Bridge i5/i7's for laptops run sc2 smoothly (minimum settings) at 1440x900?
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EPT
