|
When using this resource, please read FragKrag's opening post. The Tech Support forum regulars have helped create countless of desktop systems without any compensation. The least you can do is provide all of the information required for them to help you properly. |
On August 02 2013 05:46 Cyro wrote:
I have no idea what's even "stable" in terms of running properly cause prime, ibt, adia don't mean anything at all, i can make 4.5-4.7 prime with avx1 depending on temperature standards but x264 is a lot cooler
What's confusing to me about that is that the tests actually check for the results of their calculations. Normal programs don't do that and should have a chance to run and complete without crash even while the CPU produces broken data. You'd think the tests would catch something if things run that unstable that there are actual program crashes and BSODs.
I'd guess the cores are running fine and try to look at things around that. Look at all changes that can be made to uncore and memory and board. It could just be the particular BIOS version being broken or something. I think I've seen something about firmware for the Intel management engine stuff (is that PCH firmware?) that's installed from within Windows, not through BIOS update.
Some Windows files might have gotten corrupted from all the crashing. If you didn't check that everything still runs fine at stock speed, you might want to run "sfc /scannow" and see if that repairs something.
|
On August 02 2013 05:59 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +Well whatever clock allows you to successfully encode AND do it consistently :p When some setting that isn't stock actually works, i'll let you know  Still considering delid but there's really no point, i mean if increasing vcore from 1.3 to 1.45 doesn't change anything, there's nothing to really gain from lowered temps aside from longevity
Hence my prior comment about "Haswell is too annoying", especially considering I'm not going to be there to babysit the cpu if the overclock turns out to be dodgey :D.
|
On August 02 2013 03:59 skyR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 00:06 robert1005 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Hey TL,
I've build a pc almost 3 years ago, and I bought a New GPU around 1 year ago. I build it for gaming purposes only.
My GPU is an Asus 560 gtx DirectCU ii OC, but my CPU that's a lot older is bottlenecking me hard.
My CPU is an intel i5 650 (dual cOre), and I'M now looking for a New CPU.
The newer CPU's don't fit on my motherboard, so I need a New one of that too.
I'M looking for a good CPU (not much more than 300€ though) so the i7 2600k looks good.
I'M wondering Which motherboard and CPU fits best with my current GPU.
My ram: kingston value ram (2x 4gb)
850 watts Power
Monitor: Benq rl2450ht
Windows 7 64bit
I also got the offer for the New i7 4770k that I can get for 225€, but I heard it's not the best for gaming.
Anyway, I hope someone can help me out, because my brain is bottlenecking me on hardware knowledge :p
Robert 4770k is better than a 2600k. The 4770k (and the 2600k along with every other core i7 as well) are "not good for gaming" because most games utilize two cores with some taking advantage of four (mainly the newer titles). So you just end up throwing your money out the window. A core i5 4670k would offer near identical performance to that of a 4770k for most games. K suffix processors are also for overclocking but from the sound of it, you don't seem like someone whose going to overclock... so if you're not overclocking then you should get a non-K suffix processor (eg. core i7 4770, core i5 4670) with a H87 or B85 board.
Thanks a lot for your reply man, I bought an i5 4670k and a H87 motherboard.
Cheers
|
On August 02 2013 23:49 robert1005 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 03:59 skyR wrote:On August 02 2013 00:06 robert1005 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Hey TL,
I've build a pc almost 3 years ago, and I bought a New GPU around 1 year ago. I build it for gaming purposes only.
My GPU is an Asus 560 gtx DirectCU ii OC, but my CPU that's a lot older is bottlenecking me hard.
My CPU is an intel i5 650 (dual cOre), and I'M now looking for a New CPU.
The newer CPU's don't fit on my motherboard, so I need a New one of that too.
I'M looking for a good CPU (not much more than 300€ though) so the i7 2600k looks good.
I'M wondering Which motherboard and CPU fits best with my current GPU.
My ram: kingston value ram (2x 4gb)
850 watts Power
Monitor: Benq rl2450ht
Windows 7 64bit
I also got the offer for the New i7 4770k that I can get for 225€, but I heard it's not the best for gaming.
Anyway, I hope someone can help me out, because my brain is bottlenecking me on hardware knowledge :p
Robert 4770k is better than a 2600k. The 4770k (and the 2600k along with every other core i7 as well) are "not good for gaming" because most games utilize two cores with some taking advantage of four (mainly the newer titles). So you just end up throwing your money out the window. A core i5 4670k would offer near identical performance to that of a 4770k for most games. K suffix processors are also for overclocking but from the sound of it, you don't seem like someone whose going to overclock... so if you're not overclocking then you should get a non-K suffix processor (eg. core i7 4770, core i5 4670) with a H87 or B85 board. Thanks a lot for your reply man, I bought an i5 4670k and a H87 motherboard. Cheers
Hey, just so you know, there's also an "i5-4670". Notice the missing "k" at the end. It's a little cheaper and can't be overclocked. The thing is, a H87 board can't overclock. Choosing the i5-4670k with a H87 is thus a bit of a waste.
If you don't intend to overclock, you might want to cancel your order if you still can, and then order the normal i5-4670.
If you intend to overclock, you'd probably want to cancel the order for the H87 and choose a Z87 board.
[There's a bug that makes it possible to overclock with some H87 boards, but Intel will probably "fix" that with some software update in the future.]
|
United Kingdom20294 Posts
The thing is, a H87 board can't overclock
With the right bios you can for many of them (:
Intel is "fixing" it like you said but AFAIK you can just download the right bios version even after the fixes, but they're not live yet and probably wont take effect unless you download new bios with them, so you should totally be able to throw like +500mhz on the cpu and tune voltage if you feel like it.
I mean stock volts for my CPU is 1.127 plus more from turbo boost i think (at 3.4ghz stock 3.7 four-core turbo) even though i cinebenched at 4ghz 1v vcore first try
With ratio and vcore control on h87 + stock cooler, you're mostly just abusing the fact that cpu vcores are set pretty blindly and like in my case, you can run 4.3ghz on stock voltage, or do something like constant 4ghz on all cores while cutting out a lot of voltage to run a lot better and cooler than stock
|
Alright TL, halp.
My PC exploded a couple of days ago and I need a completely new rig. I'm currently planning on the config below, however I still need a MB and I'm open for small tweaks here and there (~200€ budget for Mainboard and possible small improvements, extra cables that make sense, etc.). Thing is going to be used for Gaming (possible streaming) and lots of Photoshop in case you wonder about why I chose i7 over i5 and 16GB RAM.
HD: Western Digital WD Green 2TB
SSD: Samsung SSD 840 Series 120GB
CPU: i7-4770K
RAM: G.Skill Ares DIMM Kit 16GB (DDR3-1866)
GPU: MSI GeForce GTX 770, 2GB
CPU Cooling: Thermalright HR-02 Macho PCGH-Edition
Case: Fractal Design Define R4 Black Pearl
PSU: be quiet! Dark Power Pro 10 550W
I'll be ordering from http://www.hardwareversand.de within the next couple of days so doublechecking if stuff is available there would be awesome if you're from someplace else. Finding a MB really sucks, the more stable the happier it would make me, C2 chipset preferred for obvious reasons.
If any German above is confusing you, those links should help you out:
+ Show Spoiler +1 x Western Digital WD Green 2TB, SATA 6Gb/s (WD20EARX)1 x Samsung SSD 840 Series 120GB, 2.5", SATA 6Gb/s (MZ-7TD120BW)1 x Intel Core i7-4770K, 4x 3.50GHz, boxed (BX80646I74770K)1 x G.Skill Ares DIMM Kit 16GB PC3-14900U CL10-11-10-30 (DDR3-1866) (F3-1866C10D-16GAB)1 x MSI N770 TF 2GD5/OC Twin Frozr Gaming, GeForce GTX 770, 2GB GDDR5, 2x DVI, HDMI, DisplayPort (V282-052R)1 x Thermalright HR-02 Macho PCGH-Edition1 x Fractal Design Define R4 Black Pearl, schallgedämmt (FD-CA-DEF-R4-BL)1 x be quiet! Dark Power Pro 10 550W ATX 2.31 (P10-550W/BN200)
|
United Kingdom20294 Posts
|
RAM was gigantic pita. It seems like 300 versions within a pricerange of 5-10€. ;; .... Would you think about a higher tactrate or lower latency?
I'm pretty sure the CPU cooler is as good as it gets for tower coolers when it comes to cooling power while still not being too loud, at least it got great reviews at the places I checked. What's your recommendation?
Any specific reason for that mainboard or just good reviews/experience?
<3
e: The kit you linked has 8GB, so I'd have to buy two of them. There MIGHT be issues with the CPU cooler blocking the first 2 RAM slots, since that will depend on the MB and seeing it in person I'd like to stay safe and go with 2x8gig of RAM.
From an Amazon review about the MB you linked, June 18th:
At the moment Solid State Drives (SSD) connected via SATA are not being recognized every time you boot up. It's a 10% chance of being able to recognize and set boot priority, and an 80% chance of Blue Screen of Death if you can boot and attempt to load windows. Some quick googling showed it is an ongoing problem and that Intel is to blame due to drivers or something. A fix with a BIOS update should come soon, I hope.
Any idea about this?
|
United Kingdom20294 Posts
Higher frequency is good, and you don't sacrifice latency for it unless you get a tiny bit higher frequency but a lot higher latency values
1600cas8 vs 2400cas12 - they have the same cas latency if you measure by absolute time, because 12 cycles @2400mhz takes the same amount of time as 8 cycles at 1600mhz
I'm pretty sure the CPU cooler is as good as it gets for tower coolers when it comes to cooling power while still not being too loud, at least it got great reviews at the places I checked. What's your recommendation?
The macho is great, great value. I don't know specifically about the version you posted, i never heard of it before which is surprising to me, i don't know the fan stats on it, it seems german-only for now or something. Coolers like the Thermalright silver arrow or Noctua u12s/u14s are a step above it though in terms of performance, and good CPU coolers don't make a lot of noise. Two fans at 600rpm and bigger heatsink volume/surface area on a silver arrow will beat a macho in both performance and noise with macho fan running at 1300rpm for example by a decent margin. The macho is great so there's not a ton of room for improvement, but there is a step up to be made if you want to
Any specific reason for that mainboard or just good reviews/experience? Cheap and good, giga z87 boards are nice. A lot of people are jumping on the d3h/ud3h. Honestly, there's not big reasons to take one mobo over another as long as it's decent
e: The kit you linked has 8GB, so I'd have to buy two of them. There MIGHT be issues with the CPU cooler blocking the first 2 RAM slots, since that will depend on the MB and seeing it in person I'd like to stay safe and go with 2x8gig of RAM.
Macho doesn't block RAM slots, i'm not sure if it's one of the coolers that doesn't fit with high height RAM modules, but if you're scared of that, u12s/u14s work great and fit with any RAM. A cooler/board will either work with high height RAM or it won't, you should be able to find that out. Also, your RAM will need to be arranged 1010 or 0101 (not 1100 or 0011) - so if the first two slots are completely blocked somehow (that shouldn't ever happen) then you can only plug in one stick
I forgot you were going 16gb actually cause i didn't check immediately, you probably want two sticks anyway - http://www.hardwareversand.de/2400 Low Voltage/83225/16GB-Kit G.Skill RipJawsX PC3-19200U CL11-13-13-31.article
From an Amazon review about the MB you linked, June 18th: Show nested quote +At the moment Solid State Drives (SSD) connected via SATA are not being recognized every time you boot up. It's a 10% chance of being able to recognize and set boot priority, and an 80% chance of Blue Screen of Death if you can boot and attempt to load windows. Some quick googling showed it is an ongoing problem and that Intel is to blame due to drivers or something. A fix with a BIOS update should come soon, I hope. Any idea about this?
Never heard of that
I suggested potential higher end cooler also because it's pretty premium build (i7, 16gb ram, 770)
And also, you might wanna grab some extra, quiet fans and throw them in the r4, it comes with:
1 - Front hydraulic bearing 140mm Silent Series R2 fan, 1000 RPM speed (included)
1 - Front 120/140mm fan slot
1 - Rear hydraulic bearing 140mm Silent Series R2 fan, 1000 RPM speed (included)
2 - Top 120/140mm fan slots
1 - Bottom 120/140mm fan slot
1 - Side 140mm fan slot
I'd throw in the extra front intake fan and two top exhausts, all 140mm if possible, and you can run them quiet, like good fans with good noise : airflow ratio's at 800rpm or something
|
Techtime. How exactly does one determine RAM performance? e.g. for CL10 (10-12-12-31) the numbers should mean Latency, tRCD (RAS to CAS delay), tRP (Ras Precharge Time) and tRAS (Row Active Time).
To compare a RAMs "real" latency I take the 2nd number, multiply with the frequency and same number = same latency? Is that why you said same latency with better frequency = awesome? :>
If there's a choice, is latency or frequency more important?
An alternative to the Gigabyte Z87X-D3H I just got is the MSI Z87-G45 Gaming (apparently better sound chip+ethernet but worse BIOS in general). I guess between any of the top boards comes down to "Oh this looks better / has non-important feature xyz I like / has the cooler looking BIOS"? ;;
e: Cheers, that RAM portion makes sense. Major suggestion I got was to not use any with heatspreaders (those are the "high profile ones", right?)
Gonna check out the other CPU coolers you mentioned. <3
|
United Kingdom20294 Posts
Cheers, that RAM portion makes sense. Major suggestion I got was to not use any with heatspreaders (those are the "high profile ones", right?)
Pretty much, you just don't really want ones with stuff sticking off the top that can get in the way. I don't think the RAM i linked in previous post (look up, i edited quite a bit) would count as "high profile" but not 100% sure
To compare a RAMs "real" latency I take the 2nd number, multiply with the frequency and same number = same latency? Is that why you said same latency with better frequency = awesome? :>
If we have 1000mhz RAM with cas latency of 10 cycles, it's 0.01 seconds (1000/10 times per second)
2000mhz with cas latency of 20 cycles - your latency is twice as high in terms of cycles, but the cycles get done in half as much time (because of doubled frequency) so latency measured in seconds is the same. 1000/10 = 100, 2000/20 = 100.
I don't have good understanding or ability to explain RAM
Higher frequency is better sometimes, higher latency is better sometimes.
But 2400mhz cas12 is always better than 1600mhz cas8, because 2400mhz cas12 has the same cas latency as 1600cas8
(2400/12 == 1600/8) but you're running at 50% higher frequency which helps a lot of other stuff
|
hardwareversand.de doesn't sell the newer Noctua but the NH-U14S is at amazon.de for 70 € with free shipping. The price for it might actually be pretty fair compared to the HR-02 Macho. Noctua sells the fan alone for 20 €. I don't know if the smaller U12S would be a good choice if compared to the HR-02 Macho.
About the HR-02 Macho, I'd definitely choose the normal version instead of the "PCGH" edition. It's cheaper and you can just limit the fan's speed yourself with software.
The MSI's LAN is definitely not better. The Intel LAN on the Gigabyte is worth more $ and is better quality with less problems in practice with drivers. Better sound for the MSI is probably true.
The parts for voltage regulation of the Z87X-D3H are similar parts to the pricier UD3H. The board shouldn't limit any experiments with the CPU, which I don't know about regarding the MSI.
You can compare latencies if you divide by the frequency. I think higher frequency beats better latency in practice because of more bandwidth. The CPU gets stuff from memory in large blocks and fills its cache with it and higher latency gets somewhat hidden by the cache.
EDIT:
This might be a pretty sweet deal: http://www.hardwareversand.de/Intel AMD/72609/Thermalright Archon SB-E X2.article
It comes with two fans of better quality than what's on the HR-02 Macho. The cheaper fan on the Macho has some noise from its bearing or motor I think I've heard somewhere. You could leave both fans on the cooler or use one of them somewhere else in your case.
The cooler itself is comparable to the NH-U14S, pretty much the best possible single tower performance.
|
edit: two posts too slow gargh x_x
Depends on the application. Most actually aren't hitting RAM all that often because data and instructions are in CPU cache.
Most times where there's some amount of difference (either very small or small) from RAM speed, the transfer rate matters more than the latency. Yes, the actual latency is as you described because the latency is listed in number of cycles and there are more cycles / second at the higher MHz. But the transfer rate often matters more anyway. If you're dealing with relatively large chunks of memory access, the overall rate is more of a factor than just the latency.
And usually we're talking small differences anyway, not to mention the fact that usually the RAM can be run at different parameters than advertised. If you wanted, you could usually increase clocks at the expense of increasing the timings.
Which of those timing numbers is relevant depends on the memory access and what is necessary there. They can all play a role.
I think a lot of people would actually take the Z87X-D3H's Intel NIC over the MSI Z87-G45 Gaming's Qualcomm Atheros Bigfoot (good lord, the acquisitions...) Killer NIC. But as for real-world differences and anything you'd notice in any part of the boards... probably not so much, unless you like one UI over another.
|
United Kingdom20294 Posts
|
LOL Cyro I saw that thread and was like "Hmmmmm.... is this enough reason to buy Gigabyte?" =D
Gigabyte Z87X-D3H it is, unless someone can point out something that's smarter coming from Gigabyte.
For CPU fans it's now between the Macho Rev. A (39€), the Thermalright Archon SB-E X2 (68€) and the Noctua NH-U14S (70€). Anyone find reviews comparing those three? Only ones I can find seem a tad old to have the latter two in them.
For RAM, does it make more sense to grab the ones Cyro suggested above (link) or the ones I had initially (link) for 20€ cheaper and OC them? Prolly the more expensive ones, eh?
|
Case cooling.
Two fans are included, there are a total of 6 fan slots out of which 5 seem to make sense (two front, two top, one back - doubt the one on the side makes sense to use).
a) I buy 3 more of the same fans (click), add a fan control, be done. Since the case in general seems to run well with stock fans I doubt that's a bad idea.
b) I use the two that are included either top or front, add 3 super awesome not much more expensive fans that you guys are about to recommend, add a fan control, be done.
I have never in my life used one of those fancy front-panel fan controls before. Anything specific I have to pay attention to or should I go by looks & price?
e: More fans shouldn't make the thing louder should they? Like, am I stupid when I assume that more fans = lower speed needed for each = less noise?
|
The Fractal case comes with a fan control thingy.
You should first try just those two fans, maybe add one single fan. You can leave everything closed. The case you want has the possible extra fan positions all closed air tight with the same material that's used for dampening on the side panels etc. It will possibly get quite hot at the top of the case if those openings are left closed and the graphics card is running at 100%. At least it's like that for me. The temperature for CPU and GPU are still fine while this is happening. I have a case with side panel and top closed and fans pushing air from the front to the back.
|
United Kingdom20294 Posts
e: More fans shouldn't make the thing louder should they? Like, am I stupid when I assume that more fans = lower speed needed for each = less noise?
Pretty much, i'd expect either less noise or significantly improved airflow+thermal performance
The RAM is honestly quite similar (1.5v 1866cas10 vs 1.65v 2400cas11) if you're not messing with OC, you'd get the 2400 kit 100%, but if you are, they're probably pretty close in terms of overall performance. A ram kit being 1.5v or 1.65v is pretty arbitrary, and it's likely they both run similar clocks/timings if you just set the kit rated for X timings at 1.5v to 1.65v instead. RAM OC comes down a lot of complicated stuff like the type of IC's, etc (i have no idea) but basic RAM OC is: google your kit or similar ones, see people getting X clocks at Y voltage, set and stability test. Setting "1.5v" ram to 1.65v and bumping clocks for example is quite easy and common
|
If you're buying new fans, you could probably do better than the Silent Series R2.
The front fan controller just switches (allegedly) 12V, 7V, and 5V. And it only supports three fans, though you might be able to just buy splitters if you wanted to use more. Some lower-speed fans like the stock fans probably don't draw too much power and wouldn't overload it. Probably.
More fans at a lower speed can give you slightly lower noise for the same performance, if you control them properly.
I think maybe just adding one more fan to the front should be fine. They're restricted up front with the door and drive cages, so two there may not be too far off of the airflow gotten by the back exhaust fan. You don't want to use the top or side positions if you can help it, as those may be more directly oriented outwards and at you and would let noise escape those locations.
Do you really need an i7 and 16GB of RAM? I'd tend to go on the cheaper side for RAM (even down to a good nominal 1600 MHz kit) unless overclocking is a hobby for you.
|
United Kingdom20294 Posts
i7 + good kit will only be like a quarter to a third faster in best case scenario and i5 is still really good, i think a lot of people like spending some for premiums though
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
