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United Kingdom20326 Posts
That doesnt matter, for one im using a 92mm zalman cooler that might as well be stock air in a case that barely fits an atx board with no fans.
Actually when i am actually messing around with >4.2 overclocks, the room is below 10c and case side is off, so even with such a cooler my idles are floating around 14-18c for 1.2v, its just load temps that are awful with bad cooling. Can you even come close to that with an overclock worth using custom water on?
Mine is also an ivy bridge CPU, and the problem is not the load temperature, its the voltage at non-ln2 temps that would destroy the CPU.. Is there some kind of rule for safe voltages and temperatures or something that i am missing?
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Finally a review site has reviewed big air coolers inside a case. I'm surprised at how well CLC does compared to big air in a case.
Also surprising is that there is only a 1.6C difference between 212 EVO and D14.
![[image loading]](http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph6830/53639.png)
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
Also surprising is that there is only a 1.6C difference between 212 EVO and D14.
What? Thats not right, thats impossible.
If the 212 evo can keep it at 62c (corrected for 20c ambient) then it's not nearly enough load to differentiate between them. Get an undelidded ivy bridge in there, you should be able to run most of the lineup into the 90's without using dangerous voltages.
Im sure Belial has a lot to say about this
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On March 14 2013 20:24 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote + Also surprising is that there is only a 1.6C difference between 212 EVO and D14. What? Thats not right, thats impossible. If the 212 evo can keep it at 62c (corrected for 20c ambient) then it's not nearly enough load to differentiate between them. Get an undelidded ivy bridge in there, you should be able to run most of the lineup into the 90's without using dangerous voltages. Im sure Belial has a lot to say about this
Testbed:
CPU Intel Core i7-2700K overclocked to 4.4GHz @ 1.4V
Motherboard Zotac Z77-ITX WiFi
Graphics Intel HD 3000 IGP
Memory 2x4GB Crucial Ballistix Sport Low Profile DDR3-1600
Drives Kingston SSDNow V+ 100 64GB SSD
Power Supply Rosewill Hive 650W 80 Plus Bronze Modular
Enclosure BitFenix Shinobi XL Window
While I agree that this not the most taxing that it could be, the stock cooler failed along with one of the noctuas.
I think that the case doesn't have sufficient airflow, that's why the groupings are soo close.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
I read it, a sandy bridge @4.4ghz 1.4v is obviously not hot enough. If a 212 evo can run it at 62c what the hell are all the other coolers even on the market for?
People delid ivy's because an nh-d14 caps out quite far before dangerous voltages. Belial's running delidded at ~85-87c with a three-fan NH-d14 and im pretty sure he said 23c or something cooler temps from delid - scaling aside that puts you at 110c for 5ghz 1.5v with a three-fan NH-d14 with what seven case fans - so they should not need anything NEAR that to get hotter than 62c from a 212. We're talking 90c above ambient instead of 42c assuming that the 212 can match a fully fanned up d14, which it cant, there's no way in hell.
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://www.topreviewshop.com/graphics/cooler_master_hyper_212_evo_fins.JPG) ![[image loading]](http://i316.photobucket.com/albums/mm355/CHEWYYFFXI/IMG_1848.jpg) They are just a completely different class of cooler
This tells us the 212 is great for overclocking sandy bridge CPU's and stuff that wont output a crazy amount of heat before running into voltage limitations, it says nothing for how it competes with nh-d14 with cpu temps running into the mid 80's or higher
While I agree that this not the most taxing that it could be, the stock cooler failed along with one of the noctuas.
Then throw them out or make a second test and chart.
I think that the case doesn't have sufficient airflow, that's why the groupings are soo close.
Then make damn sure you have a front intake or three with at least a couple 120mm's or equivelant top exhaust, a 120+mm rear exhaust, maybe a bottom intake too, in quite a sizable case.
If its meant to be a test for limited airflow performance, it should be labeled as such. If the coolers perform as listed in a poor enviroment, great for them, but this chart.. Its defamation
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On March 14 2013 20:12 iTzSnypah wrote:Finally a review site has reviewed big air coolers inside a case. I'm surprised at how well CLC does compared to big air in a case. Also surprising is that there is only a 1.6C difference between 212 EVO and D14.
Yea just not taxing enough. 4.4@1.4v isn't going to stress out something like the nh-d14, but the temps might seem high on the nh-d14 even for a low load because the nh-d14 is optimized for silence, not performance (which is why it is consistently one of the worst performing high end heatsinks). Increase the load and it'll still stay around that delta, while the 212 evo will skyrocket up. HDT coolers like the 212 are really good on low or medium overclocks, they'll outshine high end coolers and especially water coolers. It's just they are not capable of handling higher overclocks.
I mean assuming ~30 ambient, with a delta of ~40 on the Hyper 212 Evo, that means that their stress test only takes an evo to 70, which is nowhere close to the temps of an high overclock. That's the problem with large scale round-ups like this, if they really want to show the difference in cooling, they have to turn up the voltage/heat so much that coolers like the Evo would sit in the 100+. So then 20 of the coolers on that list would no longer be compatible. But there's more like a 20*C difference in some of those high end closed loops than high end air.
For example the Swiftech h220 is insanely powerful, it's got almost 10*C on the H100, but based on this benchmark you'd assume they were both the same. It's just a misleading thing to do to compare high end closed loops and high end air, on the same overclocks scale that can keep the hyper 212 evo from overheating.
Also the evo has an insanely loud fan, while the noctua will be quiet. They are testing stock so i'm sure 120/140 has more cfm but that's just something to consider as well, that the evo has an absurdly loud/powerful fan on it. Put a similar fan to what every other budget heatsink has and it's performance numbers go wayyyy down.
For reference, compared to corsair, nzxt, and yate loon fans I've used on a heatsink, just replacing one of the fans on a tower with the hyper 212+ stock fan, which is significantly weaker than the evo fan in NA, my temps dropped about 5*C. You almost never hear about 5*C temp drops even with adding a 2nd fan. That's how insanely powerful CM Hyper 212 fans are (they are also horrible quality fans, so that much power comes at a very high sound level).
You want coolers to be compared outside of a case, that way the variable of how do extra case fans impact a heatsink's performance and poor ventilation affect heatsink performance, are not there. If they test a heatsink in a case, at least take the side panel off.
Anandtech doesn't do the worst heatsink benches and comparisons but they aren't exactly the best either.
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Anandtech's CPU cooler testing is completely worthless in my opinion due to the extremely flawed/unrealistic testing methodology.
From the article: "I needed a case that could produce adequate airflow.... Shinobi XL. ....I removed every case fan but the front intake, which I ran at 5V to prevent it from affecting acoustics while still providing adequate airflow."
Shinobi XL has pretty bad airflow in the stock config, and who the hell would remove all fans but the intake and run it at 5V? I could go on and on about how it's a crappy fan that barely pushes air anywhere & the case is huge, and what kind of silent PC enthusiast doesn't know that you need at least an exhaust, and so on.
Anandtech usually puts out decent to good quality articles, but this is complete and utter garbage. The configuration makes no sense from any perspective: not from a silent PC enthusiast's perspective, not from a quiet-and-high-performance perspective, not from a blanced perspective, and not from a performance-at-any-cost perspective. The whole thing is massively skewed in favor of the CLC's.
I'm surprised they had the guts to post such trash.
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Some of the writers are better than others. Goes for any publication.
If you've got a pretty restricted (in terms of airflow) back panel that all the sideblowing air cooler towers are blowing towards, they're going to perform a lot worse. There really isn't much venting there, though there is some more up top on the case. That back fan mount is pretty restrictive, actually, so not having a fan there is really going to hurt. Pretty much the stock front intake at 5V is doing squat, at that distance away.
The CLCs have the advantage of being mounted against the chassis vents, so the fans actually get to work against the outside. The air coolers are trying to push around air inside a hot box with some but not enough venting, and that's much less airflow most people are actually using.
You can run pretty good results without exhaust fans, like with Silverstone TJ08-E, but that requires more venting out the back and more intake than just from the Shinobi XL's front fan at 5V (at that distance away, positioning).
I don't really get why their fan setup is as it was, as their sound meter only goes down to 30 dB SPL anyway. You could make an argument that you should test with case fans running at speeds to optimize temps / noise for each individual cooler, but of course that would be more work for the reviewer. If you're going to do it the lazy way, might as well be open bench.
Stock NH-D14 at full blast is really not all that much quiet, though a lot quieter than some other options, but that's not really that much the point. Actually, having a 140mm with a 120mm fan isn't that great of an idea acoustically, but individually their fans are usually some of the best in terms of lack of buzzing and tonal noise from the bearings.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
Glad you are all in agreement
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On March 14 2013 12:58 Myrmidon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 04:03 Hellwitch wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Hey Teamliquid! I'm looking to buy a new computer in the near future. But before i get into the details of what i need, here's a few things to know about me. I'm a 22 years old canadian who have pretty much zero knowledge about computer tech (or computers in general). I do not use one for work or almost any other real life matters, so my only use is basically for entertainment (video games, internet, e-mails, etc.) That said, I trust that someone will be able to help me out so let me explain what i'm looking for. What is your budget? : The price is not an issue. I'm willing to pay whatever is needed to get a decent computer. That said, i don't really want to overpay for stuff i won't be using. What is your resolution? : I wasn't sure but my monitor should be 1920 x 1080 What are you using it for? : As i said, mostly gaming. I don't intend to stream anything either so as long as i can watch youtube, play SC2 on high graphics and send a few e-mails, iwill be happy. What is your upgrade cycle? : Pretty damn long (basically until the PC dies). So i don't know exactly how long but obviously 2+ years. When do you plan on building it? : Well, i don't plan to build it myself to be honest but i'd like to have it working as soon as possible. Do you plan on overclocking? : I have no idea what this means so i guess not... Do you need an Operating System? : yes (should i care if it's windows 7 or 8?) Do you plan to add a second GPU for SLI or Crossfire? : no? Where are you buying your parts from? : I plan to go to a local store to purchase/assemble the computer for me. My idea was to get a list of pieces and components beforehand. If i forgot to put important informations, i'll try to edit what i can as soon as possible. I'm just a dude who wants to buy a new computer but doesn't really know where to start, so all the help i can get would be appreciated, but please keep in mind that i'm a tech newbie. Thanks in advance!  Which local shop (a chain?), location? For some system components there are dozens of compatible options, many of which may not be available at certain places and may not really be priced according to quality, at any given time. That means that it's not really possible to recommend parts that make sense without knowing what's available. So you'd be playing only SC2, or what else? edit: with respect to the above picture... I don't know why I've never really thought it before and why now, but somehow the Sennheiser HD 598 is jumping out to me like a Noctua fan. Very distinctive. Colors are vaguely similar too.
Thanks for your answer. Here's a link to the place i'm most likely gonna go : http://www.centre-informatique.ca/
The site is in french tho so i don't know how useful it will be.
As for the games i might be playing, here's a list of a few i played (and still wanna play) in the past few (2) years :
Starcraft Broodwar, Diablo II, Minecraft, Mount & Blade:Warband and a few games on a Snes/n64 emulator.
I did try to play Sc2 when it came out but due to excessive lag, i wasn't able to enjoy it as much as i would've hoped. So now that i'm buying a new PC, I kinda want to be able to play SC2 with nice graphics and with as little lag as possible.
I'd also like to try out games like LoL or DotA but other than those ones, i can't think of anything else right now.
I hope it'll clarify a few things i did not explained well enough.
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On March 15 2013 06:04 Hellwitch wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 14 2013 12:58 Myrmidon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 04:03 Hellwitch wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Hey Teamliquid! I'm looking to buy a new computer in the near future. But before i get into the details of what i need, here's a few things to know about me. I'm a 22 years old canadian who have pretty much zero knowledge about computer tech (or computers in general). I do not use one for work or almost any other real life matters, so my only use is basically for entertainment (video games, internet, e-mails, etc.) That said, I trust that someone will be able to help me out so let me explain what i'm looking for. What is your budget? : The price is not an issue. I'm willing to pay whatever is needed to get a decent computer. That said, i don't really want to overpay for stuff i won't be using. What is your resolution? : I wasn't sure but my monitor should be 1920 x 1080 What are you using it for? : As i said, mostly gaming. I don't intend to stream anything either so as long as i can watch youtube, play SC2 on high graphics and send a few e-mails, iwill be happy. What is your upgrade cycle? : Pretty damn long (basically until the PC dies). So i don't know exactly how long but obviously 2+ years. When do you plan on building it? : Well, i don't plan to build it myself to be honest but i'd like to have it working as soon as possible. Do you plan on overclocking? : I have no idea what this means so i guess not... Do you need an Operating System? : yes (should i care if it's windows 7 or 8?) Do you plan to add a second GPU for SLI or Crossfire? : no? Where are you buying your parts from? : I plan to go to a local store to purchase/assemble the computer for me. My idea was to get a list of pieces and components beforehand. If i forgot to put important informations, i'll try to edit what i can as soon as possible. I'm just a dude who wants to buy a new computer but doesn't really know where to start, so all the help i can get would be appreciated, but please keep in mind that i'm a tech newbie. Thanks in advance! Which local shop (a chain?), location? For some system components there are dozens of compatible options, many of which may not be available at certain places and may not really be priced according to quality, at any given time. That means that it's not really possible to recommend parts that make sense without knowing what's available. So you'd be playing only SC2, or what else? edit: with respect to the above picture... I don't know why I've never really thought it before and why now, but somehow the Sennheiser HD 598 is jumping out to me like a Noctua fan. Very distinctive. Colors are vaguely similar too. Thanks for your answer. Here's a link to the place i'm most likely gonna go : http://www.centre-informatique.ca/The site is in french tho so i don't know how useful it will be. As for the games i might be playing, here's a list of a few i played (and still wanna play) in the past few (2) years : Starcraft Broodwar, Diablo II, Minecraft, Mount & Blade:Warband and a few games on a Snes/n64 emulator. I did try to play Sc2 when it came out but due to excessive lag, i wasn't able to enjoy it as much as i would've hoped. So now that i'm buying a new PC, I kinda want to be able to play SC2 with nice graphics and with as little lag as possible. I'd also like to try out games like LoL or DotA but other than those ones, i can't think of anything else right now. I hope it'll clarify a few things i did not explained well enough.
So no parts or selection listed anywhere online? It's impossible to recommend specific parts then.
Pretty much get this:
Core i3 or i5 Ivy Bridge processor (i5 if you can afford it; if they try to sell you an i7, they're trying to rip you off, for your purposes)
Socket 1155 motherboard (something cheap is fine; if it's above $100 or so, be wary of getting ripped off on features you'll never use)
GTX 650 Ti or HD 7770 graphics card (and this is more than you need; anything above $150 or so is way overkill for your purposes)
Whatever 7200 rpm hard drive they have; don't buy more storage than you need
Whatever optical disc drive they have; don't buy Blu-Ray unless you need it, or skip this if you don't use CDs / DVDs ever
Whatever case is probably okay; they seem to have a few popular and more expensive options
Just get whatever 8GB of DDR3 RAM is cheap. Or maybe just 4GB if you're stingy and know you won't need more. Judging by what you've been saying, 4GB is probably plenty for you.
For the power supply, hope they don't rip you off. Most places stock Corsair CX430, so that is okay. You're looking at systems under 200W power draw, so whatever is of reasonable quality is suitable. Unfortunately, most brands don't sell anything worthwhile at lower wattages. Just don't pay extra for something with a higher number on the label. Something from XFX, Seasonic, PC Power & Cooling is better but probably more expensive. If there's an Antec for cheaper, get that instead unless it's a VP450 or a Basiq Power. There are a lot of other options which you may or may not encounter.
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Current Computer Setup (built early 2007)
+ Show Spoiler +Case: Antec P182
Operating System: Windows 7 Professional
Motherboard: Gigabyte P35-DS3L
CPU: Intel Q6600 (stock)
Power Supply: Ultra X4 - 1050W (overkill, I know, 'twas free)
RAM: Patriot PC2-6400 4GB
Graphics Card: EVGA nVidia 8800GT Superclock (670) 512MB
Soundcard: Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi XtremeMusic
Hard Drive: Western Digital 150GB Raptor / Samsung HD103UJ 1TB / Western Digital 1TB external (backup)
Monitor: 22" Samsung 2233RZ
Budget
I would like to stay within the $600-$1000 range, but it's not set in stone. I will give consideration where appropriate for suggestions that would possibly be beneficial.
Resolution
Given my monitor, it ends up being 1680x1050. In most games, I tend to shy away from using the highest resolution for performance reasons, but with a new computer, that should be somewhat alleviated.
Usage
I dabble in a little bit of everything, so this is going to be a very general and broad usage computer. From gaming, Photoshop, some video editing, etc... it has to be outfitted as such. Also, this computer will also serve as a partial server to other computers on my network, as well as my Xbox, so I plan on having a lot of drives.
Upgrade Cycle
Before my current rig (5 years, ugh), I was on strict 2-year cycles for upgrades/complete overhauls with all my other builds. I would like to begin getting back into that mindset.
When?
Schedule and money is very tied up at the moment, but I'm looking to build this at the end of April.
Overclocking?
No.
Need OS?
No.
SLI/Crossfire?
No.
Where?
Most likely locally at Canada Computers, but depending on part selection, NCIX is also possible.
Other information/biases/must-haves
CPU
Intel only.
Motherboard
While not overclocking, having a good amount of features is important. As many SATA 6Gb/s ports as possible, as well as USB 3.0. I am partial to EVGA/Gigabyte boards.
Power Supply
Must be completely modular. No exceptions.
RAM
No real requests here, other than it'll probably be at least 8GB.
Graphics Card
Nvidia only; my last four cards have been with EVGA, so preference stays there. Am open to other possibilities though.
Soundcard
Does not need to be included in my initial build, but will take considerations for adding one in the future.
Hard Drives
SSD needs to be at least 128GB, though 256GB will probably be more preferable. While current rig is only 1TB of storage, I have a lot of data tied up on other drives and in other computers that will be coming together on this computer. Thus, I will also be having at least 2-3 3TB drives in this rig. For building and pricing purposes, an initial SSD and one 3TB drive will be sufficient.
Case
Not really asking for case suggestions (given the subjective nature), but will take suggestions for cases based on the following:
- I'm big on air cooling, so lots of fans while having a silent profile is beneficial (think padding, rubber grommets for hard drives etc).
- Must have a lot of hard drive bays.
- Do not care about its size or weight.
- Lots of cable-routing options.
- Decent connection selection for front/top of case.
- Preferable tool-less drive installation, but not super picky.
I am open to any and all questions and suggestions anyone has, and thank you all for your time. I will answer through this thread or through PM if you prefer.
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Which Canadacomputers location is local (to get a sense of what parts are actually available)?
Also, are you planning on using any parts from the old build?
edit: actually, wait until the end of April to ask, if that's when you're building.
You're probably just looking for some Core i5, GTX 660, ~$80 motherboard, 8GB RAM, etc.
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My sister's 6 year old computer is reaching the end of its life, and I'm planning on building a replacement. It doesn't have to be great since all she really does is facebook and school work on it.
What is your budget?
I'd like to keep it as cheap as possible, since all she really does on it is facebook, youtube, and microsoft office. ~$450 range or less would be ideal
What is your resolution?
She uses a 1280x1024 4:3 monitor, so nothing fancy here. I''m considering using an i3 and just using the integrated graphics, since there's not much need for a dedicated graphics card
What are you using it for?
Mostly internet browsing and microsoft office. It should preferably run LoL smoothly on minimum settings in case someone comes over and wants to play it.
What is your upgrade cycle?
It should last at least 4 years
When do you plan on building it?
This month
Do you plan on overclocking?
No
Do you need an OS?
No
Where are you buying from?
Newegg
I'm considering:
Cheap motherboard
3rd gen i3 CPU
-integrated graphics
8 gb ram
either 750gb or 1tb HDD
cheap case
cheap psu (as long as it's reliable)
Thanks
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Geez, I didn't realize APUs got so cheap. That does look good.
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Hi there!
I am looking into building my computer for SC2 HOTS! I have build a computer about 4 years ago and it is running very very slow… I could maybe reuse the monitor, keyboard, mouse, or even the case (might need a new PSU). And I already have a 120G solid state drive I could throw in. Please let me know what else I can get!!
I'd love to run everything on MAX if possible!!
What is your budget?
I would like to spend under $900, which from my understanding should be able to get a very decent one for what I need… althought I’d like to not spend extra money if I don’t need to (means it can be lower than 900), I am okay to spend more to get better parts for this build to be able to last 3-4 years.
What is your resolution?
I am actually not sure about this… I currently use a 23 inch Samsung wide screen and I am happy with the size… I play SC HOTS using full screen window mode…
What are you using it for?
This computer will be for SC2 for 95%, plus the usual browsing, would like to be able to stream, but not necessary if the budget does not allow… I also play a bit of Call of Duty when I feel like it… but it doesn’t need to be taken into too much consideration…
What is your upgrade cycle?
My upgrade cycle should be 3-4 years for SC2 only… who knows… last SC last 10 years… right? But of course, I wouldn’t want my computer to be too slow for browsing or other regular things…
When do you plan on building it?
I plan on building it as soon as I get advise!!
Do you plan on overclocking?
I hope that I don’t need to overclock, unless it is very simple as adjusting BIOS and add on a simple better fan… I am not exactly that good at building computers…
Do you need an Operating System?
I need an operation system, but I could spend that extra 100 for it…
Do you plan to add a second GPU for SLI or Crossfire?
I am not sure about that, as for my understanding, SC2 does not need a second GPU right?
Where are you buying your parts from?
I live in Vancouver, BC. Which is close to the states and might be able to get it shipped to the states to pick up. But if the price is not too much different, I can just get it in Canada. I think NCIX and newegg both can ship to Canada.
Much thanks!!! Love you guys!!
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On March 16 2013 02:08 Myrmidon wrote:
Which Canadacomputers location is local (to get a sense of what parts are actually available)?
Also, are you planning on using any parts from the old build?
edit: actually, wait until the end of April to ask, if that's when you're building.
You're probably just looking for some Core i5, GTX 660, ~$80 motherboard, 8GB RAM, etc.
Barrie is the location I'd be specifically shopping at. However, their transfer in between stores is pretty quick from experience, so I don't imagine that it'll be much of a problem getting things from the GTA locations.
From the old build, I won't be using anything.
And the end of April is when I'll be doing it, so maybe I'll bump it then.
Thanks.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
unless it is very simple as adjusting BIOS and add on a simple better fan… I am not exactly that good at building computers…
It is, if you have a good board. You basically set load line calibration to something (there's "best" values in a lot of guides on overclock.net for certain boards or manufacturers) and then its a matter of four variables: Voltage and Frequency(ghz), which you can change with a couple keystrokes in bios, which in turn affect Temperatures and Stability.
Higher CPU frequency needs more voltage to stay stable, both the higher frequency and higher voltage increase temperatures, which you are trying to keep low
More voltage than you need = higher temperatures than you need (which is bad) but less voltage than you need = crashing, bluescreening or other problems, which is also bad.
There's also a couple things to keep in mind like voltage and temperature limits that you should not go over, and how to test for max temperatures and stability properly, etc.
If thats all too much for you, you can pretty much TL;DR a lot of stuff, tweak a few settings and with an hours testing have an acceptable 30% overclock that should not ever have problems, though it might not be as high of an overclock as you could get manually with knowledge.
I just spent half an hour messing around with this:
http://valid.canardpc.com/show_oc.php?id=2731731
If you're not afraid to get into it, its an incredibly fun learning experience
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EPT
