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Savio
United States1850 Posts
On November 18 2008 05:03 FrozenArbiter wrote: But it makes no sense.. The issue isn't whether it makes sense or not but whether it improves the game. If it introduces a scalable increase in macro ability at higher levels without putting cumbersome necessities on 2 new players playing, then it is a good mechanic. Very few things in Starcraft "make sense". But its a great game. Also, the current gas mechanic doens't make a lot of sense. | ||
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
As professional play showed, effort invested is NOT a tradeoff. There will always be someone who can "outclick" the game. Blizzards gas mechanic aproach is a attempt at capitalizing on the dual resources system in SC. That would reward players that can "juggle" their income to their specific unit/tech needs (shifting all the time). There is hardly any strategy in this kind of macro and it hardly gives changing challenges to the players based on the game situation. To compare, what I consider "good macro" is transition between unit mixes midgame when players need to adjust their income, techdirection, production cycles, micro styles... | ||
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Savio said it perfectly | ||
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SlickR12345
Macedonia408 Posts
A solution must be simple and effective, your is none of that. Keeping up with glowing workers, precentage points, workers numbers is all too complex, at some point where you have 3 bases and 50 workers its virtually impossible to make out cats from dogs and vice versa. I'll get back to this thread though with some good idea on how to increase macro. | ||
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
On November 18 2008 05:03 FrozenArbiter wrote: But it makes no sense.. Yes, FA it makes perfect sense. Imagine you're in the army, and you're an engineer. You're trying to mine oil, and you do this day in and day out. It's your job and as it gets boring, you obviously don't work at the max efficiency you could if it was your passion rather than your job. However, if the highest general of the entire army comes and talks to you specifically and tells you to mine as best you can, you would absolutely work faster. Also, as my idea posted earlier, it could be an upgraded ability, like a special afterburner or speed booster put on that you use as you would use a spell. It could be a one-time deal (explanation you no longer have the afterburner fuel), or it could take energy (the afterburner overheats and needs to cool down) or it could be 1-time and be able to be recharged (refill the fuel for example). Besides this, it should make sense for gameplay, not for storylining. The fluff, or story, or explanation behind mechanics shouldn't matter, it's the mechanic itself. How the fuck do mutalisks stack? How can they turn 180 degrees instantaneously? It doesn't have an explanation because it doesn't need one, it just works as a game. It's not a movie, it's a video game. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On November 18 2008 05:16 SlickR12345 wrote: Too much calculation and math and precentages involved!!! A solution must be simple and effective, your is none of that. Keeping up with glowing workers, precentage points, workers numbers is all too complex, at some point where you have 3 bases and 50 workers its virtually impossible to make out cats from dogs and vice versa. I'll get back to this thread though with some good idea on how to increase macro. 100% agreed. On November 18 2008 05:23 -orb- wrote: Yes, FA it makes perfect sense. Imagine you're in the army, and you're an engineer. You're trying to mine oil, and you do this day in and day out. It's your job and as it gets boring, you obviously don't work at the max efficiency you could if it was your passion rather than your job. However, if the highest general of the entire army comes and talks to you specifically and tells you to mine as best you can, you would absolutely work faster. Also, as my idea posted earlier, it could be an upgraded ability, like a special afterburner or speed booster put on that you use as you would use a spell. It could be a one-time deal (explanation you no longer have the afterburner fuel), or it could take energy (the afterburner overheats and needs to cool down) or it could be 1-time and be able to be recharged (refill the fuel for example). Besides this, it should make sense for gameplay, not for storylining. The fluff, or story, or explanation behind mechanics shouldn't matter, it's the mechanic itself. How the fuck do mutalisks stack? How can they turn 180 degrees instantaneously? It doesn't have an explanation because it doesn't need one, it just works as a game. It's not a movie, it's a video game. And why would a robot (the probe) care? Why would a mindless Drone care? Besides, it doesn't make sense from a gameplay perspective either! You are implementing a mechanic whose sole purpose is to force you to click. It's like hauling building material up a hill without actually intending to build anything, it's so pointless! The solution has to be elegant, shouldn't penalize players who don't use it (ie Savio suggested that units you sent to mine via rally points would move slower <- which is what "it makes no sense" was a replay to) anymore than it needs to, and most of all it should serve a purpose other than forcing you to click, because then you might as well just not include automine in the first place. | ||
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A3iL3r0n
United States2196 Posts
On November 18 2008 05:16 SlickR12345 wrote: Too much calculation and math and precentages involved!!! A solution must be simple and effective, your is none of that. Keeping up with glowing workers, precentage points, workers numbers is all too complex, at some point where you have 3 bases and 50 workers its virtually impossible to make out cats from dogs and vice versa. I'll get back to this thread though with some good idea on how to increase macro. No complex math is needed by the player. I mean, does anyone actually know the formula that explains the optimal number of scvs mining? No. You just visually know what the saturation point looks like. Very good players might know the precise number of scvs needed to support their unit production, but that was gained through trial and error I'm sure. (Unit damage calculation should be simple though, but that is for another topic.) | ||
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
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SaharaDrac
United States76 Posts
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Savio
United States1850 Posts
People have suggested that things like MBS and automine be options that you can turn on or off so pros can play without it. People think that would be the best of both worlds. But it is not realistic. When given the option, it doesn't make sense to toggle something useful off. But the beauty of this mechanic is that it effectively turns off automine at the pro level not by an artificial "toggle on/off switch" but by creating an incentive program such that every progamer would CHOOSE not to use automine. Newer players would not be affected by it because it is such a minor boost to them and much more important for them is to figure out how to use psi storm and other huge factors. Only at the pro level where tiny increments of advantage matter will this mechanic be important. I really like it. | ||
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
Act 1 We want macro back mtf'ers: Is known that when a vespene gas goes offline its workers will stop making anything, what will require you to move them to minerals... but 3 (or 6) scvs arent rly any close to SC1 Macro. The good Thing: 5 and not 3 is the optimal number of vespene geisers workers capacity, so you have now, more impact on economy if ur vespene goes offline. The Good thing - II : Gas colector workers that are carrying gas barrels(?) and are set to mine will add the gas ammount it have to the mineral amount its mining ,IF and only IF the mineral patches are blue, so SCV with 4 gas -> set him to mine -> he takes 6 min per mining -> then 6+4 = 10 ( he will take 10 minerals home 0 gas) The good thing - III: If the mineral patches are the golden ones, it will be like: SCV with 4 gas -> set him to mine -> he takes 6 min per mining -> then 6 - 4 =2 (he will takke 2 mins home, 0 gas) You have to take the scvs to command center , get the gas they carry , and then reorder them to minerals. Good thing IV 2 vespene geisers at the same time is like 10 scvs to gas, -10 to min for zerg its like -> 3 expoes - 30 drones-> it will require more drone management what will fuck them cause they dont have a great amount of workers compared to T or P for terran and protoss -> a lot of work, cause it will require a lot of worker management (lol?/are u jokin with me n00b?) I TRIED. But the Noob mode or Pro mode when creating a game are the best options | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5871 Posts
On November 18 2008 04:20 TheYango wrote: The problem with this type of solution is that it tends to be a "fire and forget" one-time action, rather than something you're constantly needing to attend to. If you don't have to look back to your base regularly, its not creating macro ACTIONS. Well, the idea behind that mechanic was not to solve the lacking multi-tasking in macro department, but rather giving Blizzard a better alternative to the aritficial gas mechanic they seem so keen on. T___T The mechanic I proposed would allow for more intriciate BOs, as well as even more thought involved in economy management. You could e.g. take your natural's gas earlier so that the gas accumulates for a period of time before you actually need it (some geysers could e.g. start at 0 gas and would require you to set it to mode III immediately after you take them, rewarding you for taking them ahead of time) or allow you to tech faster by utilizing mode II. As opposed to the Blizzard gas mechanic, the one proposed by me does not require each and every map to have two geysers in every main/natural. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=62214¤tpage=22 (The last post.) | ||
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
On November 18 2008 05:29 FrozenArbiter wrote: And why would a robot (the probe) care? Why would a mindless Drone care? Besides, it doesn't make sense from a gameplay perspective either! You are implementing a mechanic whose sole purpose is to force you to click. It's like hauling building material up a hill without actually intending to build anything, it's so pointless! The solution has to be elegant, shouldn't penalize players who don't use it (ie Savio suggested that units you sent to mine via rally points would move slower <- which is what "it makes no sense" was a replay to) anymore than it needs to, and most of all it should serve a purpose other than forcing you to click, because then you might as well just not include automine in the first place. Why does the probe or drone need to care? Did you read my full post? I suggested an alternative reasoning (which as I said IS COMPLETELY WORTHLESS! STOP CARING ABOUT WHY) in which it could be an afterburner or speed/jet booster. NO! The purpose is not just to click! This creates a lot of strategy that I explained in my first post in the thread! This creates situations in which you need to decide if you want to use up the speed boost early, or save it up to use all of them at the same time for a timing push, or if it's a researched ability doing a specific build to tech up to it fast, etc. It also creates the ability to use strategies for worker rushing, like drone drilling and boxer's scv rush, as I also explained earlier. I am not suggesting the move slower thing, I also believe that is retarded. My modified version of kennigit's suggestion doesn't actively penalize players that don't use it, it just rewards players that do use it! Also, if you enable it as a researched ability, this also would reversely reward players that don't use it for all-in rushes. For example, in PvT in brood war doing a fast 2gate goon build without range. Most people tech straight to range as most people would with this speed boost upgrade, but some people would opt to not tech up to it really fast in exchange for having more units early in the game for a rush. | ||
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Savio
United States1850 Posts
On November 18 2008 05:50 Ki_Do wrote: But the Noob mode or Pro mode when creating a game are the best options + Show Spoiler + This is what it boils down to. People have suggested that things like MBS and automine be options that you can turn on or off so pros can play without it. People think that would be the best of both worlds. But it is not realistic. When given the option, it doesn't make sense to toggle something useful off. But the beauty of this mechanic is that it effectively turns off automine at the pro level not by an artificial "toggle on/off switch" but by creating an incentive program such that every progamer would CHOOSE not to use automine. Newer players would not be affected by it because it is such a minor boost to them and much more important for them is to figure out how to use psi storm and other huge factors. Only at the pro level where tiny increments of advantage matter will this mechanic be important. I really like it. | ||
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A3iL3r0n
United States2196 Posts
On November 18 2008 05:29 FrozenArbiter wrote: ... The solution has to be elegant, shouldn't penalize players who don't use it (ie Savio suggested that units you sent to mine via rally points would move slower <- which is what "it makes no sense" was a replay to) anymore than it needs to, and most of all it should serve a purpose other than forcing you to click, because then you might as well just not include automine in the first place. I'm not sure what that means. In Kenningit's suggestion, you are rewarded for not using the rally points, instead of penalized. In other terms, the suggestion is creating a skill gradient for macro where you are penalized for not being as mechanically proficient which is the correct way to go. He also makes the point that Blizzard is practically forced by the market to have auto-mine in the game, which I think is true. I think his suggestion is very powerful because the idea behind it can be applied to all of the other simplifications in SC2: Devise a way for good players to benefit from not using the automations. | ||
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SlickR12345
Macedonia408 Posts
On November 18 2008 05:49 SaharaDrac wrote: I think this could be workable. Obviously I think the biggest solution is to have the speed bonus only apply for 30 seconds/1 minute, and only to NEW workers. SCV spawns, you have a 5 second window to motivate him. After that he's a normal SCV and you've wasted time he could have been automining, hence the downside to taking the risk of not queueing your workers to mine. Man you are genious, but instead of trying to fix this idea, you have an idea on your own that you haven't realized. What if workers don't immidiatly start mining minerals? Say you build an SCV and that SCV will be idle for 5(subject to balance) seconds, you can order it to mine minerals and acchieve an advantage or after 5 seconds the SCV will start mining automaticly! What do you guys think? I think this is great idea and thank you Sahara for making me realize it! This could revolutionize the gameplay, it will be modern, its simple, it will not be forcing you anything and can increase macro for those who are macro players! | ||
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
On November 18 2008 05:56 SlickR12345 wrote: Man you are genious, but instead of trying to fix this idea, you have an idea on your own that you haven't realized. What if workers don't immidiatly start mining minerals? Say you build an SCV and that SCV will be idle for 5(subject to balance) seconds, you can order it to mine minerals and acchieve an advantage or after 5 seconds the SCV will start mining automaticly! What do you guys think? I think this is great idea and thank you Sahara for making me realize it! This could revolutionize the gameplay, it will be modern, its simple, it will not be forcing you anything and can increase macro for those who are macro players! I'm so glad you're being sarcastic | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On November 18 2008 05:56 A3iL3r0n wrote: I'm not sure what that means. In Kenningit's suggestion, you are rewarded for not using the rally points, instead of penalized. In other terms, the suggestion is creating a skill gradient for macro where you are penalized for not being as mechanically proficient which is the correct way to go. He also makes the point that Blizzard is practically forced by the market to have auto-mine in the game, which I think is true. I think his suggestion is very powerful because the idea behind it can be applied to all of the other simplifications in SC2: Devise a way for good players to benefit from not using the automations. .. maybe my post is way more confusing than I think it is, but that part is in reference to what Savio suggested. He suggested, and I paraphrase, that any SCV ordered to mine by means of rally point would become SLOWER than one ordered manually. That sounds like a penalty to me. | ||
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SlickR12345
Macedonia408 Posts
No, i'm actually not being sarcastic. But throw all that speed bonus things and crap, the idea is only the following: You build a SCV for example and that SCV does not mine for 5 seconds, it those seconds you can manually set it to mine or ignore it and do something else and the SCV will automaticallystart mining after 5 seconds. The seconds are all subject to balance ofcourse, but its a simple straightforward idea that can work! Edit:The actuall 6 starting workers can be made to mine immidiatly, but every worker that comes out of the nexus/CC/hatchery will have that 5 seconds idle mechanic! | ||
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freelander
Hungary4707 Posts
I share FA's opinion completely. | ||
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