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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
this is a lost fight, for now maybe they can remove automine, but it will come back, even worse in the next games, the new false "mechanics" are the new way to go -if blizzard dont add the noob/pro mode to be choose- its better have gas mechanics,mineral mechanics, worker mechanics than have warcraft in space of course its our task to pray for that to please the korean progamers, otherwise brood war will rule our worlds till the end of our lives( change "our" for "my") | ||
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A3iL3r0n
United States2196 Posts
Instead of the workers losing their mining speed bonus (they would mine faster, but not move faster) over time, they would keep it through entire game, and it would be a small bonus; therefore it would require you have to a lot of uber-peons to make a substantial difference. The uber-peon status would be decided by the very first command to mine: was it given by the player or by the rally point? (In other words, you can only make more uber-peons by training new ones.) This mechanic would encourage players to try to play perfect, like BW does, but also doesn't totally derail your economy if you can't continue to make them through the mid and late game. Most importantly, it gives the superior player a worthwhile advantage. Also, this mechanic poses interesting strategical questions: •How many uber-peons do I continue to try to make throughout the game? •Do I send my uber-peons to mine the gold minerals even though it's a hotly contested portion of the map? •Do I use my uber-peons to mine a hidden, naked expansion that is very vulnerable if discovered? •Do I take the time to find and load my uber-peons into a dropship for the island expand? •I just lost a bunch of uber-peons, do I take the time to make more (primarily a mid to late game question)? | ||
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
On November 18 2008 07:06 A3iL3r0n wrote: @Kenningit: I'd like to hear your thoughts on my suggestion, which seems to have gotten buried. Instead of the workers losing their mining speed bonus (they would mine faster, but not move faster) over time, they would keep it through entire game, and it would be a small bonus; therefore it would require you have to a lot of uber-peons to make a substantial difference. The uber-peon status would be decided by the very first command to mine: was it given by the player or by the rally point? This mechanic would encourage players to try to play perfect, like BW does, but also doesn't totally derail your economy if you can't continue to make them through the mid and late game. Most importantly, it gives the superior player a worthwhile advantage. Also, this mechanic poses interesting strategical questions: •How many uber-peons do I continue to try to make throughout the game? •Do I send my uber-peons to mine the gold minerals even though it's a hotly contested portion of the map? •Do I use my uber-peons to mine a hidden, naked expansion that is very vulnerable if discovered? •Do I take the time to find and load my uber-peons into a dropship for the island expand? •I just lost a bunch of uber-peons, do I take the time to make more (primarily a mid to late game question)? The main problem with this mechanic is that it is completely worthless late game. Once you reach late game in starcraft, and you get to 200/200 you are no longer producing workers, and thus you no longer would ever do this "uber-peon" action, so there would still be 0 macro late game. | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
On November 18 2008 07:01 Savio wrote: I am a hard-core pro-MBS guy. I fought the "good fight" when the early MBS debate was going on to keep it. Yet, even I, see that automine is a problem in its current form. So it is definitely an issue that needs to be discussed. I also don't think that there is a chance in heck that Blizzard is going to remove it completely. They have already stated that they are going to keep up with RTS standards. So the best we can go with is a modified form of automine. This is the best recommendation I have heard so far because it essentially removes automine, but only from competitive play (Chris Sigaty's Mom can still use automine).  well what do you think of the wait alternative I mentioned? | ||
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Savio
United States1850 Posts
On November 18 2008 07:06 A3iL3r0n wrote: @Kenningit: I'd like to hear your thoughts on my suggestion, which seems to have gotten buried. Instead of the workers losing their mining speed bonus (they would mine faster, but not move faster) over time, they would keep it through entire game, and it would be a small bonus; therefore it would require you have to a lot of uber-peons to make a substantial difference. The uber-peon status would be decided by the very first command to mine: was it given by the player or by the rally point? (In other words, you can only make more uber-peons by training new ones.) This mechanic would encourage players to try to play perfect, like BW does, but also doesn't totally derail your economy if you can't continue to make them through the mid and late game. Most importantly, it gives the superior player a worthwhile advantage. Also, this mechanic poses interesting strategical questions: •How many uber-peons do I continue to try to make throughout the game? •Do I send my uber-peons to mine the gold minerals even though it's a hotly contested portion of the map? •Do I use my uber-peons to mine a hidden, naked expansion that is very vulnerable if discovered? •Do I take the time to find and load my uber-peons into a dropship for the island expand? •I just lost a bunch of uber-peons, do I take the time to make more (primarily a mid to late game question)? I can give you my feedback. You mention that your version would not "totally derail your economy..through mid to late game". I think your version punishes those who use automine MORE in the mid to late game because it is a cumulative growing effect. I much prefer the temporary 1 time effect. That will make it not so huge in the late game. I also prefer the idea of making it a speed decrease to those that use a rally point rather than a "bonus" to those who do not. And it should apply to ALL units. But it should be a small enough effect that it would only really turn the tides in a competitive match to keep it noob vs noob compatible. | ||
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Savio
United States1850 Posts
On November 18 2008 07:11 fusionsdf wrote: well what do you think of the wait alternative I mentioned? I like the wait idea. It is similar to the speed decrease. I think they both effectively remove automining at the high levels. I support either version. | ||
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A3iL3r0n
United States2196 Posts
On November 18 2008 07:08 -orb- wrote: The main problem with this mechanic is that it is completely worthless late game. Once you reach late game in starcraft, and you get to 200/200 you are no longer producing workers, and thus you no longer would ever do this "uber-peon" action, so there would still be 0 macro late game. You don't produce workers in a normal game of BW when you are maxed out. But, if you happened to lose a group of uber-peons, you could make more to replace them at the cost of extra multi-task which would reward players with good mechanics. Why would there be 0 macro? There still is macro late game in normal BW too, you are making more units. Just as you would in SC2. | ||
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Savio
United States1850 Posts
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Doctorasul
Romania1145 Posts
My initial reaction was that is was too artificial and that it was hard to explain in common-sense terms the peculiar behavior workers would have. But then again, why do workers in BW move to a mineral patch and then specifically not start mining when the rally point is very deliberately set on the mineral patch? That really makes no sense and it flat-out contradicts the BW creed of units doing exactly what they are told. Or are you going to argue there are instances where you want your workers to move to a patch, but not mine from it? If you still disagree, try to remember your own reaction when you first thought on your own to set the rally point to a mineral patch, only to discover to your surprise it just doesn't work. We all thought it was weird, a glitch. The only reason the current mechanic is loved is because it's good for pro gaming - that's it. It makes no sense and we love it. This new proposal doesn't require any more than that. | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
On November 18 2008 07:16 A3iL3r0n wrote: You don't produce workers in a normal game of BW when you are maxed out. But, if you happened to lose a group of uber-peons, you could make more to replace them at the cost of extra multi-task which would reward players with good mechanics. Why would there be 0 macro? There still is macro late game in normal BW too, you are making more units. Just as you would in SC2. I dont think the difference so much is macro, but base management (physically going back to your base to do stuff). This might not be such a big deal if its only late game, but the basic theory is this: Starcraft isnt competitive and fun to play just because there are too many things to do, but also because there are too many things to watch. You cant watch your units at the same time you watch your base, so one of those two is going to be imperfect, which is where the fun balancing act comes in. We, as spectators, really dont want perfect micro and perfect macro at the same time, and if a player can watch his units and macro without taking his eyes off those units (with automine, players really only have to take their eyes off their units to build buildings, and with autoqueue we arent sure how much that will occur). Its hard to see how progamers who can watch their units 95% of the time while macroing won't quickly approach perfect or near perfect macro, and its the difference in micro between the players that adds to the excitement factor for the major part. Think how different it would be as a spectator if players always defended very well against reavers, never got caught by lurkers etc. Many of the most exciting units, reaver, lurker, ht+storm, mines etc, are exciting because one mistake by the defender can cause a huge outcome. Its a bit of a sidetrack, but that is the basic arguement in favor of base management, and since that is the most relevant argument against automine in my oppinion, I think its valuable to point out specifically why from that standpoint automine is bad, and how to fix it according to that model. | ||
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armed_
Canada443 Posts
The idea of a speed boost that has to be constantly administered to your workers works well as an addition to automine, but it has no purpose to exist other than increasing the number of actions needed. However, make sure that that speed boost(and maybe add some other buff for good measure as well) is useful in situations other than increasing mining speed and make the cooldown time/energy cost/whatever significant enough that blindly using it to increase mining speed keeps you from using it in other situations, and you have a mechanic that both increases the potential for use of workers in early game strategies significantly and increases the amount of actions needed for proper macro in late game. So how about this - workers have a self-buff spell, speeding up movement + attack speed as well as the speed at which SCVs build and repair. Make it researchable at a CC or barracks, cheap enough to be affordable early game but not so cheap that researching it right away is a matter of course for all openings. Whether it's based on cooldown or energy doesn't really matter, but make the downtime short enough that constantly using it for mining is difficult, but again not so short that it changes into completely mindless spam. This adds a new dimension to worker use in early defence/rushes, and adds to macro considerably - aside from constantly using it to mine faster, you can also have things like saving the boost on three workers to immediately begin mining gas at top speed(and maybe even rotating those three off once their boost expires, putting three freshly boosted ones on), saving the boost on individual workers as part of your BO to get your buildings faster, etc. I used Terran as an example, but some variation on the same idea could be used for all the races. Of course this doesn't add as much in terms of raw actions required as a mechanic geared purely to keeping your workers mining quickly; it's not some end-all solution to the reduced macro issue. But this in addition to a few other mechanics that increase macro for each race and you could achieve the same level of involvement as BW macro without artificially limiting the new interface. | ||
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
It's not about increase the amount of clicks - its about broadening the potential for increasing skill - you can get better at collecting resources when everything is done for you just hitting 1sss every 25 seconds. We are talking about a mechanic that forces high level players to be involved with their resource management IF they want to play at high level etc etc. | ||
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Doctorasul
Romania1145 Posts
On November 18 2008 07:32 armed_ wrote: The one major pitfall with this sort of idea is if you implement it in a way that makes it nothing more than a forced action; all you're doing is forcing the player not to take advantage of automine, for really no good reason other than making them click more. That's not true, it does something that was nicely explained in a post above you, it forces the competitive player to watch his base - not just click or press hotkeys, but go back to his base and watch it. It's a point that was made earlier but casual players can skip this feature and just use regular automine, since they have much bigger and more consequential areas to improve than this. It's very important to notice that this proposal has something that plain old BW does not: it doesn't alienate casual players; and it achieves this without taking anything away from the competitive player. Isn't this precisely what should be done? | ||
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armed_
Canada443 Posts
On November 18 2008 07:41 Kennigit wrote: A unit upgrade that increases the speed of repair/mining/building does not increase macro or resource management. The speed upgrade buff/spell/inherent ability only would affect players looking to play at a level above "1 v1 Play/obs Python" on east. To be clear, it's a self-buff that would have to be constantly cast to stay in effect, not a passive upgrade. Effectively it would achieve the same thing as your idea of having to go back and manually order your workers to the minerals every so often to keep them mining at top speed in a normal situation, albeit to a lesser degree. On November 18 2008 07:41 Kennigit wrote: It's not about increase the amount of clicks - its about broadening the potential for increasing skill - you can get better at collecting resources when everything is done for you just hitting 1sss every 25 seconds. We are talking about a mechanic that forces high level players to be involved with their resource management IF they want to play at high level etc etc. Being involved with resource management = more actions used in it overall, no? On November 18 2008 07:46 Doctorasul wrote: That's not true, it does something that was nicely explained in a post above you, it forces the competitive player to watch his base - not just click or press hotkeys, but go back to his base and watch it. If the only reason the player has to go back to his base and watch it is because they're being actively forced to and there's really no reason for them to look at all aside from completely artifical limitations, then looking at your base was never part of the design of the game, and that's what you need to change if you want to have a good game rather than forcing them. On November 18 2008 07:46 Doctorasul wrote: It's a point that was made earlier but casual players can skip this feature and just use regular automine, since they have much bigger and more consequential areas to improve than this. It's very important to notice that this proposal has something that plain old BW does not: it doesn't alienate casual players; and it achieves this without taking anything away from the competitive player. Isn't this precisely what should be done? That's pretty much what I was trying to achieve too, just more naturally. Except in this case automine is a given, it's the additional stuff that takes the place of the player going back and manually ordering his workers to the minerals. | ||
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Ki_Do
Korea (South)981 Posts
what happens if you hotkey all ur buildings to 1? 1 sss(3scvs) tt(2 tanks) hhhhhh(6 hellions) bbb(3 banshees)? and Kennigit Idea: i like it, very very good idea, using perks in an rts would definitely innovate the genre... gonna try to find a way to improve that ... wow add stim to scvs would be good, awesome tbh but what about probes and drones? SCVS: Stim Probes: antimatter-engines Drones: good old adrenal glands or something like this | ||
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Osmoses
Sweden5302 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + What will Jaedong spend his clicking on when he barely needs to macro his base? What the hell does automine matter, really, when the rest of the UI has become so simple compared to the original? If we use Kennigits idea and boost workers who are sent off manually, of course the progamers are going to do it, but what will they spend the remaining 300 APM on? I think the idea of trying to nerf automine might be a bit redundant, what is needed is a game-mechanic that will require more than two clicks every 25 seconds. That, or a nerfed automine along with a BUNCH of other macro nerfs, like the peon damaging vespene, etc. Question is how many of those ideas won't be shot down by people saying that it's a ridiculously unintuitive, contrived and un-lorish mechanic only meant to force the player to click. Then I thought: if Broodwar was played at a setting about 50% faster than the current fastest, having MBS and Automine would probably make the player performance about the same. Doesn't a whole lot of this debate stem from the fact that the game might be moving too slow in it's current build? Isn't this all just an issue of a slow game? Edit: now that I think of it, wasn't the speed setting at Blizzcon, where the TL staff among others got their info from, one step below fastest? | ||
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Augury
United States758 Posts
On November 18 2008 08:01 armed_ wrote: To be clear, it's a self-buff that would have to be constantly cast to stay in effect, not a passive upgrade. Effectively it would achieve the same thing as your idea of having to go back and manually order your workers to the minerals every so often to keep them mining at top speed in a normal situation, albeit to a lesser degree. Being involved with resource management = more actions used in it overall, no? If the only reason the player has to go back to his base and watch it is because they're being actively forced to and there's really no reason for them to look at all aside from completely artifical limitations, then looking at your base was never part of the design of the game, and that's what you need to change if you want to have a good game rather than forcing them. That's pretty much what I was trying to achieve too, just more naturally. Except in this case automine is a given, it's the additional stuff that takes the place of the player going back and manually ordering his workers to the minerals. Select all workers... Control 0... hit 0, hit hotkey... repeat | ||
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
On November 18 2008 08:32 Osmoses wrote: I wrote this: + Show Spoiler + What will Jaedong spend his clicking on when he barely needs to macro his base? What the hell does automine matter, really, when the rest of the UI has become so simple compared to the original? If we use Kennigits idea and boost workers who are sent off manually, of course the progamers are going to do it, but what will they spend the remaining 300 APM on? I think the idea of trying to nerf automine might be a bit redundant, what is needed is a game-mechanic that will require more than two clicks every 25 seconds. That, or a nerfed automine along with a BUNCH of other macro nerfs, like the peon damaging vespene, etc. Question is how many of those ideas won't be shot down by people saying that it's a ridiculously unintuitive, contrived and un-lorish mechanic only meant to force the player to click. Then I thought: if Broodwar was played at a setting about 50% faster than the current fastest, having MBS and Automine would probably make the player performance about the same. Doesn't a whole lot of this debate stem from the fact that the game might be moving too slow in it's current build? Isn't this all just an issue of a slow game? Edit: now that I think of it, wasn't the speed setting at Blizzcon, where the TL staff among others got their info from, one step below fastest? One step below fastest is not going to solve this problem. The problem is that with the current build you almost NEVER have to look at your base. The only times you EVER have to go back to your base are if you need to start a new building queue or if you are getting dropped and need to defend against it. This makes it so you can just stare at your units 99% of the game, and removes a giant amount of the skill ceiling from the game. | ||
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Osmoses
Sweden5302 Posts
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Doctorasul
Romania1145 Posts
On November 18 2008 08:01 armed_ wrote: If the only reason the player has to go back to his base and watch it is because they're being actively forced to and there's really no reason for them to look at all aside from completely artifical limitations, then looking at your base was never part of the design of the game, and that's what you need to change if you want to have a good game rather than forcing them. I think your use of the word "artificial" is confusing. Not only is the current BW setting more artificial by your use of the word, but by your reasoning it can be argued that making new units or expanding or attacking is also something the player is "forced to do". Ultimately, the game "forces" you to do stuff in order to win, there's nothing wrong with that. This particular feature would "force" a competitive player to go back to his base and manage the economy, therefore not always looking at his army. There is a choice to be made how often to go back to the base, no one will be able to do everything perfectly, the game will be challenging and hard to master and intensive training will pay off. I'm sorry, but unless you'll be able to define "artificial" as something other than an unpleasant gut feeling, your argument falls flat. You also need to show how the current BW setting is not "artificial", yet this proposal is. On November 18 2008 08:32 Osmoses wrote: I wrote this: + Show Spoiler + What will Jaedong spend his clicking on when he barely needs to macro his base? What the hell does automine matter, really, when the rest of the UI has become so simple compared to the original? If we use Kennigits idea and boost workers who are sent off manually, of course the progamers are going to do it, but what will they spend the remaining 300 APM on? I think the idea of trying to nerf automine might be a bit redundant, what is needed is a game-mechanic that will require more than two clicks every 25 seconds. That, or a nerfed automine along with a BUNCH of other macro nerfs, like the peon damaging vespene, etc. Question is how many of those ideas won't be shot down by people saying that it's a ridiculously unintuitive, contrived and un-lorish mechanic only meant to force the player to click. Then I thought: if Broodwar was played at a setting about 50% faster than the current fastest, having MBS and Automine would probably make the player performance about the same. Doesn't a whole lot of this debate stem from the fact that the game might be moving too slow in it's current build? Isn't this all just an issue of a slow game? Edit: now that I think of it, wasn't the speed setting at Blizzcon, where the TL staff among others got their info from one step below fastest? There are several things wrong with your post: - this mechanic will require of the progamer to have exactly as much APM as in BW to have the strive for the best economy; just like in BW, each new worker is to be manually ordered to mine if you want to maximize your economy, the notion they'll have 300 APM to spare is simply wrong - if it were true progamers would be in that situation in BW as well - this is not a click every 25 seconds, you need to go back every time a new worker is produced; if you have 2 bases it's hard, if you have 3 or more it's really hard to keep track of all of them - does any of this sound familiar? - you're missing the point why automine is a concern in the first place; the issue is the player doesn't have as many things to juggle, both in his head but crucially, on the screen; higher speed means sloppier micro and sloppier macro, but macro will still be marginally improvable and will still take too little attention away from other tasks; what we need is for the proportion to change, we need new macro tasks I'm sorry for bringing up the same points over and over again, but I get the impression people either don't bother to read the thread or they don't understand the arguments that are being made (maybe we're not clear enough). | ||
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