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TeamMamba
192 Posts
Storm gets nerf to the ground. Storm was something that toss could rely against bio ball. Now it’s total garbage. If they gonna nerf storm at least buff the col and distributor. Also basically timing attack from Zerg with hydra ling bane will have a 100% win rate Viper cannot abduct siege tanks? lol clown idea @wombat. The wombat patch got nerf. What you think ? | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1865 Posts
Big exciting changes are what we need. Shake up the game because it feels stale right now. NOT balance tweaks. Radical changes. I wanna see pros play this. | ||
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monitor
United States2408 Posts
I like increasing the zoning tools of each race. I don’t like the balance implications. Game design wise, any attempt to improve SC2 that does not include adding highground advantage and removing warp gates is misguided. | ||
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Zidane
United States1689 Posts
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LaughNgamezSOOP
68 Posts
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RogueTheGOAT
166 Posts
On September 19 2025 06:43 monitor wrote: There’s balance and there’s game design. Two distinct aspects of the patch. I like increasing the zoning tools of each race. I don’t like the balance implications. Game design wise, any attempt to improve SC2 that does not include adding highground advantage and removing warp gates is misguided. Any game design change that does not delete queens is misguided. The unit violates both basic RTS principles and the fundamental Zerg design principle. It should have been removed in the same patch that removed the Mothership Core. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1262 Posts
On September 19 2025 07:47 RogueTheGOAT wrote: Any game design change that does not delete queens is misguided. The unit violates both basic RTS principles and the fundamental Zerg design principle. It should have been removed in the same patch that removed the Mothership Core. Removing the Mothership Core was somewhat easy. Removing the Queen would literally mean to entirely re-design the Zerg-race. You might not know this, but Zerg players don't use Queens because they are "lul OP", they use them because there is literally no chance in hell to survive the first 5-7 minutes without them... | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16121 Posts
On September 19 2025 08:27 Balnazza wrote: Removing the Mothership Core was somewhat easy. Removing the Queen would literally mean to entirely re-design the Zerg-race. You might not know this, but Zerg players don't use Queens because they are "lul OP", they use them because there is literally no chance in hell to survive the first 5-7 minutes without them... Agreed. Removing Queens would be as difficult to do as removing Warp Gate would be. You'd need to completely retool the race and totally change around their tech tree in order to make up for all of the things Queens currently do for Zerg. Is it a good idea to change Zerg so they aren't so dependent on this one catch all of a unit? Absolutely. But it's not as easy as just taking the Mothership Core out. The Mothership core was JUST a defensive bandaid, one that they were able to replace with Shield Batteries. Queens are a defensive bandaid, a very important map control tool, and a production enhancer. Zerg would need replacement mechanics for all of those in order to completely replace the Queen. Good idea? I think so. But it would be difficult to implement. | ||
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Glorfindelio
221 Posts
On September 19 2025 08:47 Vindicare605 wrote: Agreed. Removing Queens would be as difficult to do as removing Warp Gate would be. You'd need to completely retool the race and totally change around their tech tree in order to make up for all of the things Queens currently do for Zerg. Is it a good idea to change Zerg so they aren't so dependent on this one catch all of a unit? Absolutely. But it's not as easy as just taking the Mothership Core out. The Mothership core was JUST a defensive bandaid, one that they were able to replace with Shield Batteries. Queens are a defensive bandaid, a very important map control tool, and a production enhancer. Zerg would need replacement mechanics for all of those in order to completely replace the Queen. Good idea? I think so. But it would be difficult to implement. All good points. Beyond just the balance implications, we'd also be removing maybe the single most foundational mechanical aspect of the entire race--hell, maybe of all three races. Your basic cycle/rhythm from the moment you start Zerg is based around Queen injects and spreading creep and moving them accordingly. Taking them out would be burning a decade of muscle memory away for players. | ||
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monitor
United States2408 Posts
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RogueTheGOAT
166 Posts
On September 19 2025 08:27 Balnazza wrote: Removing the Mothership Core was somewhat easy. Removing the Queen would literally mean to entirely re-design the Zerg-race. You might not know this, but Zerg players don't use Queens because they are "lul OP", they use them because there is literally no chance in hell to survive the first 5-7 minutes without them... That literally described Protoss with the Mothership Core. After they removed it, they had to add Shield Batteries, but those weren't enough, so they added the overcharge ability, but then people complained, so that was removed and Energy Recharge was added, but then people complained, so that is being nerfed and storm gutted. Larva production could be increased and Zerg players could invest further into macro hatcheries like they do in Brood War. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26265 Posts
Terrans and Zergs will just run through it and kill you. Luckily Toss can count on the Colossus to fill the AoE role. Wait, Vikings are also cheaper now? The whole point of surveillance mode is just to stick observers in place, it always was. If that’s an issue, I’d argue nerf its vision range in that mode slightly, be less F2 friendly. Not the opposite. What’s the point in having observers with a bit more vision range that can be killed by anything that can shoot up? Siege tanks can’t be abducted I also don’t like. Why siege tanks specifically? From my understanding a lot of non-pro players already struggle playing versus mech, so let’s make it harder? Why not Collosus and Disruptors? Unless you hit a really sharp timing, Vipers render Robo-centric play borderline useless. Indeed, it’s why Toss players go Airtoss in the first place. Other stuff, I think there’s some interesting tweaks, and other stuff I’m not sure on, but interested to see how it plays out. The Templar change will completely make Toss unviable at the top level at least, there’s nothing to compensate properly. Templars now suck, so you have to look at another AoE option. Well, if it’s Colossus Terran can squeeze more Vikings out, and Disruptors are already suffering from their last nerf. In PvZ if Temps now suck, you will just die. Either you play the current meta, and Zergs will just run through your storms and kill you, or you adapt and go Robo, and Zergs will make a few vipers and laugh at you | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16121 Posts
On September 19 2025 09:06 RogueTheGOAT wrote: That literally described Protoss with the Mothership Core. After they removed it, they had to add Shield Batteries, but those weren't enough, so they added the overcharge ability, but then people complained, so that was removed and Energy Recharge was added, but then people complained, so that is being nerfed and storm gutted. Larva production could be increased and Zerg players could invest further into macro hatcheries like they do in Brood War. Queens also currently provide the only form of anti-air from a unit available before Lair, they are able to heal units and structures and Creep Tumors are currently one of the most powerful tools that any race has. Even if you think that Creep should be nerfed, these are all simply MUCH bigger facets of the race than just what the Mothership Core used to provide. The fact that Protoss is still a work in progress for replacing that unit should give you an idea of how difficult it would be to remove Queens. Like I said, the goal is a worthwhile one, but we couldn't even begin to try without serious consideration for everything involved in doing it. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16121 Posts
On September 19 2025 09:08 WombaT wrote: Protoss will get absolutely fucking butchered if those storm changes go through, what the fuck is that? Terrans and Zergs will just run through it and kill you. Luckily Toss can count on the Colossus to fill the AoE role. Wait, Vikings are also cheaper now? The whole point of surveillance mode is just to stick observers in place, it always was. If that’s an issue, I’d argue nerf its vision range in that mode slightly, be less F2 friendly. Not the opposite. What’s the point in having observers with a bit more vision range that can be killed by anything that can shoot up? Siege tanks can’t be abducted I also don’t like. Why siege tanks specifically? From my understanding a lot of non-pro players already struggle playing versus mech, so let’s make it harder? Why not Collosus and Disruptors? Unless you hit a really sharp timing, Vipers render Robo-centric play borderline useless. Indeed, it’s why Toss players go Airtoss in the first place. Other stuff, I think there’s some interesting tweaks, and other stuff I’m not sure on, but interested to see how it plays out. The Templar change will completely make Toss unviable at the top level at least, there’s nothing to compensate properly. Templars now suck, so you have to look at another AoE option. Well, if it’s Colossus Terran can squeeze more Vikings out, and Disruptors are already suffering from their last nerf. In PvZ if Temps now suck, you will just die. Either you play the current meta, and Zergs will just run through your storms and kill you, or you adapt and go Robo, and Zergs will make a few vipers and laugh at you Apparently the Storm change specifically we can directly blame on Harstem. I seriously don't understand what the thought process is on it at all. | ||
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RogueTheGOAT
166 Posts
On September 19 2025 09:11 Vindicare605 wrote: Queens also currently provide the only form of anti-air from a unit available before Lair, they are able to heal units and structures and Creep Tumors are currently one of the most powerful tools that any race has. Even if you think that Creep should be nerfed, these are all simply MUCH bigger facets of the race than just what the Mothership Core used to provide. The fact that Protoss is still a work in progress for replacing that unit should give you an idea of how difficult it would be to remove Queens. Like I said, the goal is a worthwhile one, but we couldn't even begin to try without serious consideration for everything involved in doing it. You do know that Zerg used to have a hatchery tech anti-air unit, right? | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16121 Posts
On September 19 2025 09:35 RogueTheGOAT wrote: You do know that Zerg used to have a hatchery tech anti-air unit, right? Oh I'm aware, but say we move Hydralisks to Tier 1. Would they be balanced at Tier 1? I don't think so, especially vs Protoss, Hydralisk busts are already meta in ZvP in Brood War, and if Hydralisks got moved to Hatch Tech I certainly think they would become an issue in the match up. That's only one issue I can think of happening if we just swap Hydralisks to tier 1 without any other changes. This also still wouldn't change anything about Queens' other roles. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26265 Posts
On September 19 2025 09:13 Vindicare605 wrote: Apparently the Storm change specifically we can directly blame on Harstem. I seriously don't understand what the thought process is on it at all. I don’t doubt Harstem had the idea. Of pro players he’s quite reasonable in identifying potential issues with his own race, better than most. But I would assume Harstem had a minor tweak in mind. He probably said storm is brutally punishing, especially at lower levels and people maybe should get a little more time to mitigate the damage. I doubt he advocated for a storm nerf that will basically enable you to just walk through it. | ||
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BonitiilloO
Dominican Republic627 Posts
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TeamMamba
192 Posts
On September 19 2025 09:08 WombaT wrote: Protoss will get absolutely fucking butchered if those storm changes go through, what the fuck is that? Terrans and Zergs will just run through it and kill you. Luckily Toss can count on the Colossus to fill the AoE role. Wait, Vikings are also cheaper now? The whole point of surveillance mode is just to stick observers in place, it always was. If that’s an issue, I’d argue nerf its vision range in that mode slightly, be less F2 friendly. Not the opposite. What’s the point in having observers with a bit more vision range that can be killed by anything that can shoot up? Siege tanks can’t be abducted I also don’t like. Why siege tanks specifically? From my understanding a lot of non-pro players already struggle playing versus mech, so let’s make it harder? Why not Collosus and Disruptors? Unless you hit a really sharp timing, Vipers render Robo-centric play borderline useless. Indeed, it’s why Toss players go Airtoss in the first place. Other stuff, I think there’s some interesting tweaks, and other stuff I’m not sure on, but interested to see how it plays out. The Templar change will completely make Toss unviable at the top level at least, there’s nothing to compensate properly. Templars now suck, so you have to look at another AoE option. Well, if it’s Colossus Terran can squeeze more Vikings out, and Disruptors are already suffering from their last nerf. In PvZ if Temps now suck, you will just die. Either you play the current meta, and Zergs will just run through your storms and kill you, or you adapt and go Robo, and Zergs will make a few vipers and laugh at you Bio ball will literally Stim a move and crush the toss army Lings and banes literally laugh at it. Now banes will definitely connect no matter what Basically Terran and Zergs no longer need to bait out storms. They just need to be decisive on the attack and run though it | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26265 Posts
On September 19 2025 10:09 TeamMamba wrote: Bio ball will literally Stim a move and crush the toss army Lings and banes literally laugh at it. Now banes will definitely connect no matter what Basically Terran and Zergs no longer need to bait out storms. They just need to be decisive on the attack and run though it Yep. I’m not very good at the game, and even I think I could just engage through the new Storm, what the fuck is a Clem going to do? I mean I know we’re in the phase of a bunch of ideas, not all will make it into an actual patch. But this, it just can’t make it in, it’s crazy | ||
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