On September 17 2024 14:17 ejozl wrote: Ppl have more honed mechanics which make the barrier to entry way higher, but due to the game being so thinned out, the avg gm back in those days were way smarter than the avg gm today. Goody and sjow who were extremely low apm would still easily get gm today and probably easier than back in those days.
On September 15 2024 17:10 Haighstrom wrote: I remember being more hyped about the Taeja runs, but it's a long time ago and memory gets unreliable. Which tournaments were the best to rewatch, does anyone remember?
To be honest I tried watching a few older games but was unable to finish. Wol and hots games are now unwatchable for me due to the lower skill level and games were quite slow.
Pro games back then are now basically any ladder games between 2 low masters players (and there being quite generous)
It's literally just because LoTV games are sped up, they have no early game and are more action packed compared to WoL or HotS.
Plenty of GMs and competitive players from WoL jumped back in during LoTV and were still GM straight away. The idea that pro games from 2011 onwards would be masters now is unfounded. 2024 master league is not even remotely close to being any year of Taeja.
Hell, I was masters years and years back, and I'm still masters now even though I play a few games a year (if that). Skill level really hasn't changed that much. I also wouldn't have a shot against a pro from any era.
One of my favorite moments .
But geez is idra's engagement control some of the worst I have ever seen. Mind you this was some of the highest level TvZ vs ZvT at the time.
if you showed me Idra's engagement today I would have predicted diamond-level. I don't think any master zerg could mess up any engagement that bad.
Yeah people really don't have a clue about what diamond is actually like. Pro games from WoL would be, at worst, GM games now. They wouldn't be any lower.
You can pick the single most famous blunder (from over a year before the topic of Taeja's run by the way) in sc2 history but it's nowhere near the mess of errors and complete lack of gamesense you see in every diamond/masters games.
He would still be GM if you teleported him from 2011 to today. Plenty of competitive WoL players jumped back in a decade later and were GM straight away.
Yeah I think many masters players are in complete delusion about how good they are. That's why I like Harstems Is it imba or do I suck series, it really emphathizes the complete lack of game sense/mechanics/logical thinking of diamond/masters players. No masters player would be able to compete anywhere near pro level in any era (okay, maybe in the very first GSL)
On the flip side we are all a bit harsh sometimes too, you’re still pretty decent at RTS games if you can hit Masters, and it’s a hard game.
But 100% the gap is a chasm. Even the higher level players Harstem showcases are hitting even the earliest checkpoints in their build seconds off what pros are, and this just compounds the further along you go. Like the MMR gap between a decent, solid pro like Harstem and even good amateur GMs is pretty large, it’s ballpark at least as big as that between a solid Master and a Plat player, if not larger.
There’s a reason those guys are progamers after all, even now we don’t really see any of the amateurs entering weeklies doing much at all.
On September 13 2024 16:48 WombaT wrote: I think it’s gotta be Clem based on how big EWC was to be fair
meh, big prize sure but in terms of live audience, and online viewership there have been way bigger tournaments. I think if we are talking about impressive runs we have to mention sOs. Otherwise just between these two? Taeja all the way. They dont call it summer of taeja for nothing. he dominated an entire season or era of starcraft nevermind 1 tournament.
On September 13 2024 16:48 WombaT wrote: I think it’s gotta be Clem based on how big EWC was to be fair
meh, big prize sure but in terms of live audience, and online viewership there have been way bigger tournaments. I think if we are talking about impressive runs we have to mention sOs. Otherwise just between these two? Taeja all the way. They dont call it summer of taeja for nothing. he dominated an entire season or era of starcraft nevermind 1 tournament.
Clem did also win Bellum Zagora [sic] and was bossing WTL and carrying TL there, on top of doing his usual things in weeklies.
Bigger tournaments, or exciting ones as a fan, sure but as a pro? Every second interview for the whole year pros were saying how they were focusing on EWC, so winning that and in dominant fashion is quite the feat.
I think and frequently say that I think Taeja’s achievements are a bit underrated now. People didn’t win a bunch of back-to-back tournaments then, and it’s semi normal now. That said the gap in his resume is winning that Starleague or WC tier event against a stacked field, and Clem did that so I’ll give him the slight edge there.
sOs is a boss, but he was more a bloke who peaked on the big occasion than one who was smashing people for extended periods
I love how actually insanely close this is, at least for me. I'm constantly finding myself swaying from one end to the other. Lots of arguments can be made for both decisions.
On September 13 2024 16:48 WombaT wrote: I think it’s gotta be Clem based on how big EWC was to be fair
meh, big prize sure but in terms of live audience, and online viewership there have been way bigger tournaments. I think if we are talking about impressive runs we have to mention sOs. Otherwise just between these two? Taeja all the way. They dont call it summer of taeja for nothing. he dominated an entire season or era of starcraft nevermind 1 tournament.
Clem did also win Bellum Zagora [sic] and was bossing WTL and carrying TL there, on top of doing his usual things in weeklies.
Bigger tournaments, or exciting ones as a fan, sure but as a pro? Every second interview for the whole year pros were saying how they were focusing on EWC, so winning that and in dominant fashion is quite the feat.
I think and frequently say that I think Taeja’s achievements are a bit underrated now. People didn’t win a bunch of back-to-back tournaments then, and it’s semi normal now. That said the gap in his resume is winning that Starleague or WC tier event against a stacked field, and Clem did that so I’ll give him the slight edge there.
sOs is a boss, but he was more a bloke who peaked on the big occasion than one who was smashing people for extended periods
Not sure I'd consider todays' tournaments as "stacked" considering there are only six players who can realistically win any given tournament
On September 13 2024 16:48 WombaT wrote: I think it’s gotta be Clem based on how big EWC was to be fair
meh, big prize sure but in terms of live audience, and online viewership there have been way bigger tournaments. I think if we are talking about impressive runs we have to mention sOs. Otherwise just between these two? Taeja all the way. They dont call it summer of taeja for nothing. he dominated an entire season or era of starcraft nevermind 1 tournament.
Clem did also win Bellum Zagora [sic] and was bossing WTL and carrying TL there, on top of doing his usual things in weeklies.
Bigger tournaments, or exciting ones as a fan, sure but as a pro? Every second interview for the whole year pros were saying how they were focusing on EWC, so winning that and in dominant fashion is quite the feat.
I think and frequently say that I think Taeja’s achievements are a bit underrated now. People didn’t win a bunch of back-to-back tournaments then, and it’s semi normal now. That said the gap in his resume is winning that Starleague or WC tier event against a stacked field, and Clem did that so I’ll give him the slight edge there.
sOs is a boss, but he was more a bloke who peaked on the big occasion than one who was smashing people for extended periods
Not sure I'd consider todays' tournaments as "stacked" considering there are only six players who can realistically win any given tournament
To be fair. The players today are more mechanically better than they were back then. If you really look back at those Taeja games. The skill / mechanical is quite underwhelming compared to today.
lmao most sc2 fans are all born after 2007 so this tracks. Given the remaining talent out there, Clem would have to win another EWC level tourney for this to even be close. This is honestly so dumb how much weight we give to a scene where only a couple koreans still play full time. Again I'm convinced in 2030 when Iba is the only player left and he wins every tournament that year, theres gonna be a poll asking if Iba is more dominant than Maru.
On September 13 2024 16:48 WombaT wrote: I think it’s gotta be Clem based on how big EWC was to be fair
meh, big prize sure but in terms of live audience, and online viewership there have been way bigger tournaments. I think if we are talking about impressive runs we have to mention sOs. Otherwise just between these two? Taeja all the way. They dont call it summer of taeja for nothing. he dominated an entire season or era of starcraft nevermind 1 tournament.
Clem did also win Bellum Zagora [sic] and was bossing WTL and carrying TL there, on top of doing his usual things in weeklies.
Bigger tournaments, or exciting ones as a fan, sure but as a pro? Every second interview for the whole year pros were saying how they were focusing on EWC, so winning that and in dominant fashion is quite the feat.
I think and frequently say that I think Taeja’s achievements are a bit underrated now. People didn’t win a bunch of back-to-back tournaments then, and it’s semi normal now. That said the gap in his resume is winning that Starleague or WC tier event against a stacked field, and Clem did that so I’ll give him the slight edge there.
sOs is a boss, but he was more a bloke who peaked on the big occasion than one who was smashing people for extended periods
Not sure I'd consider todays' tournaments as "stacked" considering there are only six players who can realistically win any given tournament
They’re as stacked as they can be, which is wasn’t always (or indeed) often with the tournaments in a much more fragmented scene.
The pool is smaller, but one thing that isn’t generally a factor is that the best players available do tend to be in modern tournies.
That first summer of Taeja 2012, which is the subject of the poll it’s Taeja winning with a smattering of top players of the day, and the rest of the field consists of mediocre Koreans and foreigners. Foreigners who were nowhere near as competitive as now.
On the flipside, his IPL TAC run was an insane feat against the team titans of the day, almost solo. His IEM Shenzen win in 2014, beats both MMA and Life in groups, Zest, Jaedong and then Solar in the finals. And other blokes like Inno were there.
Taeja did show an ability to compete with Life and the new Kespa kids on the block, he’s I think actually quite underrated nowadays. Pity he had injuries and the scene was at its most fragmented for some of his best years.
But looking through some of his 2012 and he’s just outright better than most of those fields. Not through being a standout player in the scene that nobody can touch, but a ton of the players who were at his standard at the time simply weren’t there for the most part.
I think a career comparison I’d have them closer than Taeja’s 2012 summer and Clem’s just past.
On January 31 2025 03:47 luxon wrote: lmao most sc2 fans are all born after 2007 so this tracks. Given the remaining talent out there, Clem would have to win another EWC level tourney for this to even be close. This is honestly so dumb how much weight we give to a scene where only a couple koreans still play full time. Again I'm convinced in 2030 when Iba is the only player left and he wins every tournament that year, theres gonna be a poll asking if Iba is more dominant than Maru.
this is unironically a take I agree with for the most part. I think the skill level has of course gone up over the years, you have games where players literally play virtually "perfect" games. They know what strategies work and what doesnt,everything has been so fine tuned over the years and players hardly miss a beat with macro such as creep spread, injects etc (which you used to see get a lot less attention in the earlier days) but still, the competitive pool is much smaller. Who is to say Taeja, Rain, Life, Flash whoever wouldnt have also continued to improve in these areas given the time? Heck, given a lot of their expertise in BW I think assuming they would have "perfected" macro is almost a given. So I think what it mostly comes down to is the competitive pool size which undeniably has shrunk. Clem is amazing, so is Serral, probably the best foreigners of all time, and its a bit of a shame they cant do anything about the situation to truly stand out.
On January 31 2025 03:47 luxon wrote: lmao most sc2 fans are all born after 2007 so this tracks. Given the remaining talent out there, Clem would have to win another EWC level tourney for this to even be close. This is honestly so dumb how much weight we give to a scene where only a couple koreans still play full time. Again I'm convinced in 2030 when Iba is the only player left and he wins every tournament that year, theres gonna be a poll asking if Iba is more dominant than Maru.
this is unironically a take I agree with for the most part. I think the skill level has of course gone up over the years, you have games where players literally play virtually "perfect" games. They know what strategies work and what doesnt,everything has been so fine tuned over the years and players hardly miss a beat with macro such as creep spread, injects etc (which you used to see get a lot less attention in the earlier days) but still, the competitive pool is much smaller. Who is to say Taeja, Rain, Life, Flash whoever wouldnt have also continued to improve in these areas given the time? Heck, given a lot of their expertise in BW I think assuming they would have "perfected" macro is almost a given. So I think what it mostly comes down to is the competitive pool size which undeniably has shrunk. Clem is amazing, so is Serral, probably the best foreigners of all time, and its a bit of a shame they cant do anything about the situation to truly stand out.
Go look at the tournaments that Taeja won in the 2012 summer of Taeja and the field in those tournaments and if you honestly think it’s better than Clem’s 2024, fair enough.
On January 31 2025 03:47 luxon wrote: lmao most sc2 fans are all born after 2007 so this tracks. Given the remaining talent out there, Clem would have to win another EWC level tourney for this to even be close. This is honestly so dumb how much weight we give to a scene where only a couple koreans still play full time. Again I'm convinced in 2030 when Iba is the only player left and he wins every tournament that year, theres gonna be a poll asking if Iba is more dominant than Maru.
this is unironically a take I agree with for the most part. I think the skill level has of course gone up over the years, you have games where players literally play virtually "perfect" games. They know what strategies work and what doesnt,everything has been so fine tuned over the years and players hardly miss a beat with macro such as creep spread, injects etc (which you used to see get a lot less attention in the earlier days)
I don't even agree with that. Sure if you only look at the top 3-4 top dogs that's probably true, but the skill difference between the top dogs and the rest of the field is absolutely massive right now and I'm not convinced the skill level of the average player one has to beat to win a tournament is much higher than it used to be.
So it comes down to what's more impressive: beating one S++ level player and several A/B level players to win a tournament, or having to beat several S and S+ level players.
EPT
