EPTClem is probably peaking harder than Taeja though. + Show Spoiler +
to be honest that's not 100% clear either because we still don't precisely know how good his TvT is
Which run was more impressive? TaeJa '12 vs Clem '24 - Pag…
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
Clem is probably peaking harder than Taeja though. + Show Spoiler + . If there were more tournaments this summer he probably would have outdid Taeja but we are in just such a slow period of SC2 right now. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
You can talk about multiple smaller events or one massive one. But the difference in era makes a difference. Taeja won when there were tournaments to win every month. Nowadays the crown of SC2 is a couple of massive tournaments Clem won the hardest he could. Taeja's teamleague performance is the only thing that can really put him over Clem. But even then he didn't win individual trophies in Code S or in Korea in general, Clem simply won the hardest tournament and Taeja didn't. | ||
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Blitzball04
191 Posts
Taeja era was more competitive but Clem opponents were on a much higher skill level Also Taeja only won the smaller 10K tournament. No where as big and important as something like EWC. If Taeja win a code S and blizzcon this would have been a closer comparison | ||
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shockaslim
United States1105 Posts
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Haighstrom
United Kingdom213 Posts
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KelvinG
United States5 Posts
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Blitzball04
191 Posts
On September 15 2024 17:10 Haighstrom wrote: I remember being more hyped about the Taeja runs, but it's a long time ago and memory gets unreliable. Which tournaments were the best to rewatch, does anyone remember? To be honest I tried watching a few older games but was unable to finish. Wol and hots games are now unwatchable for me due to the lower skill level and games were quite slow. Pro games back then are now basically any ladder games between 2 low masters players (and there being quite generous) | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27282 Posts
On September 15 2024 23:58 Blitzball04 wrote: To be honest I tried watching a few older games but was unable to finish. Wol and hots games are now unwatchable for me due to the lower skill level and games were quite slow. Pro games back then are now basically any ladder games between 2 low masters players (and there being quite generous) This isn’t remotely true. Maybe very early WoL but not by HoTS. Show me a pair of low masters players today who can replicate the likes of the immortal Innovation versus Taeja series and I’ll happily eat my hat. Although probably not gain much nutritionally | ||
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Haighstrom
United Kingdom213 Posts
On September 16 2024 00:42 WombaT wrote: This isn’t remotely true. Maybe very early WoL but not by HoTS. Show me a pair of low masters players today who can replicate the likes of the immortal Innovation versus Taeja series and I’ll happily eat my hat. Although probably not gain much nutritionally We're talking about 2012 though | ||
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Luolis
Finland7190 Posts
2012 the gameplay was already pretty good. Modern low gm's wouldnt stand a chance there. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On September 15 2024 23:58 Blitzball04 wrote: To be honest I tried watching a few older games but was unable to finish. Wol and hots games are now unwatchable for me due to the lower skill level and games were quite slow. Pro games back then are now basically any ladder games between 2 low masters players (and there being quite generous) It's literally just because LoTV games are sped up, they have no early game and are more action packed compared to WoL or HotS. Plenty of GMs and competitive players from WoL jumped back in during LoTV and were still GM straight away. The idea that pro games from 2011 onwards would be masters now is unfounded. 2024 master league is not even remotely close to being any year of Taeja. Hell, I was masters years and years back, and I'm still masters now even though I play a few games a year (if that). Skill level really hasn't changed that much. I also wouldn't have a shot against a pro from any era. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1346 Posts
On September 15 2024 23:58 Blitzball04 wrote: To be honest I tried watching a few older games but was unable to finish. Wol and hots games are now unwatchable for me due to the lower skill level and games were quite slow. Pro games back then are now basically any ladder games between 2 low masters players (and there being quite generous) While I get that feeling, I personally enjoy seeing different iterations of my favorite games. It's like seeing history, remembering "oh yeah, that used to be a thing" or maybe even seeing something you haven't seen before. And you can always have this feeling of unproven superiority, which is a neat bonus | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3533 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
On September 16 2024 06:03 Fango wrote: It's literally just because LoTV games are sped up, they have no early game and are more action packed compared to WoL or HotS. Plenty of GMs and competitive players from WoL jumped back in during LoTV and were still GM straight away. The idea that pro games from 2011 onwards would be masters now is unfounded. 2024 master league is not even remotely close to being any year of Taeja. Hell, I was masters years and years back, and I'm still masters now even though I play a few games a year (if that). Skill level really hasn't changed that much. I also wouldn't have a shot against a pro from any era. One of my favorite moments . But geez is idra's engagement control some of the worst I have ever seen. Mind you this was some of the highest level TvZ vs ZvT at the time. if you showed me Idra's engagement today I would have predicted diamond-level. I don't think any master zerg could mess up any engagement that bad. That said, obviously if we go back and watch Idra's FPV, his mouse-precision and general speed is still very good at would still fit into GM level today. However, at the time players had no idea how to properly set up fights and thus weren't able to ploperly utilize their APM. My theory is that with the introduction of HOTS, the game became much more harass and action-based. And thus it sped up the learning on how to engage properly much faster. WoL was many times slower and thus even over 1 year post release, players still didn't have a good grasp on how to play fight. I also think this is where the Stephano shined because he was properly one of the first players to figure out how to engage properly. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27282 Posts
On September 17 2024 02:55 ejozl wrote: Summer of taeja wasn't rly an event that happened, it was more that he had two impressive(or starting to get impressive) summers. Clem winning the biggest tournament and then a pretty random, but cool event doesn't amount to anything unheard of. It's nothing like winning the two biggest tournaments in a row, as was the case with ByuN and Rogue, and a few others. People forget that even if they weren’t all the biggest of the big, people weren’t regularly chaining tournament wins together in those days | ||
Waxangel
United States33681 Posts
On September 16 2024 07:59 Balnazza wrote: While I get that feeling, I personally enjoy seeing different iterations of my favorite games. It's like seeing history, remembering "oh yeah, that used to be a thing" or maybe even seeing something you haven't seen before. And you can always have this feeling of unproven superiority, which is a neat bonus I went back and watched a bunch of old GSL finals, and it's such a weird mishmash of areas where people are high skill/low skill. Some of it really is about what kind of skills are rewarded in a given era. For example, I don't think anyone playing right now has force field micro as good as '11 MC or '12 PartinG because they haven't had to practice it nearly as hard in years. Another example is Terrans of WoL-HotS were as good/better at Banshee kiting/moveshot because it was a part of so many Terran openers for a very long time. On the other hand, Terran multitask/multiprong is really meh in WoL because Medivacs don't have afterburners, so not only is it slower to execute, but it's just so much riskier because you don't have a free get-out-of-jail card if you make a bad decision. No one is incentivized to get super good at multiprong drops—it's just small, low-commitment drops here and there to reap low hanging fruit. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On September 17 2024 03:31 Hider wrote: One of my favorite moments https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yOw-hYMbDY. But geez is idra's engagement control some of the worst I have ever seen. Mind you this was some of the highest level TvZ vs ZvT at the time. if you showed me Idra's engagement today I would have predicted diamond-level. I don't think any master zerg could mess up any engagement that bad. Yeah people really don't have a clue about what diamond is actually like. Pro games from WoL would be, at worst, GM games now. They wouldn't be any lower. You can pick the single most famous blunder (from over a year before the topic of Taeja's run by the way) in sc2 history but it's nowhere near the mess of errors and complete lack of gamesense you see in every diamond/masters games. He would still be GM if you teleported him from 2011 to today. Plenty of competitive WoL players jumped back in a decade later and were GM straight away. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27282 Posts
On September 17 2024 06:02 Waxangel wrote: I went back and watched a bunch of old GSL finals, and it's such a weird mishmash of areas where people are high skill/low skill. Some of it really is about what kind of skills are rewarded in a given era. For example, I don't think anyone playing right now has force field micro as good as '11 MC or '12 PartinG because they haven't had to practice it nearly as hard in years. Another example is Terrans of WoL-HotS were as good/better at Banshee kiting/moveshot because it was a part of so many Terran openers for a very long time. On the other hand, Terran multitask/multiprong is really meh in WoL because Medivacs don't have afterburners, so not only is it slower to execute, but it's just so much riskier because you don't have a free get-out-of-jail card if you make a bad decision. No one is incentivized to get super good at multiprong drops—it's just small, low-commitment drops here and there to reap low hanging fruit. Yeah good point, someone was trying to argue with me on Reddit just today that recent Clem/Reynor games showed that the skill level had declined because the execution of muta micro/defence was worse than previous epochs. In games I haven’t seen btw so I’m not sure it even was any worse. I mean it would stand to reason that Serral or Reynor aren’t quite as good at executing, nor a Clem defending ling/bling/muta as some of those fellows because they’ve seemingly revived it solely to find a solution to the Clem problem, rather than it being the predominate meta for years. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3533 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany16086 Posts
On September 17 2024 08:12 Fango wrote: Yeah people really don't have a clue about what diamond is actually like. Pro games from WoL would be, at worst, GM games now. They wouldn't be any lower. You can pick the single most famous blunder (from over a year before the topic of Taeja's run by the way) in sc2 history but it's nowhere near the mess of errors and complete lack of gamesense you see in every diamond/masters games. He would still be GM if you teleported him from 2011 to today. Plenty of competitive WoL players jumped back in a decade later and were GM straight away. Yeah I think many masters players are in complete delusion about how good they are. That's why I like Harstems Is it imba or do I suck series, it really emphathizes the complete lack of game sense/mechanics/logical thinking of diamond/masters players. No masters player would be able to compete anywhere near pro level in any era (okay, maybe in the very first GSL) | ||
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