The 2023/24 ESL Pro Tour concluded with Clem winning the world championship, sweeping Serral 5-0 in a first-ever best-of-nine grand final. The victory capped off a dominant championship run from the Team Liquid ace, who recorded a 18-2 overall map score while taking series victories over Serral (5-0, 3-0), herO (4-0), Reynor (3-2), and Classic (3-0).
The EPT World Championship—played at the 2024 Esports World Cup—awarded a record $1,000,000 total prize pool to the participants, with $400,000 going to Clem for his first place finish. Clem also won an additional $50,000 in prize money as the tournament's MVP.
No information was revealed regarding the continuation of the ESL Pro Tour during the tournament. As of now, only weekly Open Cups #241 and #242 remain as officially scheduled EPT events.
Clem's 8-0 over Serral in this tournament is pretty insane, mostly attributed to his amazing micro. The games were not bad, Serral played well, just not good enough for Clem's unstoppable performance.
Reynor almost took out Clem though, losing 2-3.
Clem must be super happy, this single weekend won him more $ than his entire career at $450k. Also, not sure if he will get a share of TL's prize money, I'm pretty sure Clem won TL a good few hundred thousand if not like a $1.5m additional prize.
- Showtime deserved so much better for what he displayed. We need a better format and a chance for the last chance qualifiers to prove themselves, (esp if youre going to give coffee and soul that many chances to qualify..) - poor herO he really had a chance to go all the way, he 3-0ed clem not too long ago and he was like one engagement away from knocking serral into knockout bracket. - someone check on oliveira plz lol - also wtf is "mvp" in a 1v1 game, just make first place 450k then, or split the winnings more equitably.
very well run tournament all in all, the trophy construction and key crushing was creatively cool and the prep players brought to a game this old was great. hope saudi fed buys esl or keeps the scene alive. i understand the economics don't work out but they have an insane purse ($63m) and are already funding teams directly and this would be negligible all things considered..
> I'm pretty sure Clem won TL a good few hundred thousand if not like a $1.5m additional prize. Yeah clem the first sc2 player to justify his roster spot on the team. across esports, teams dont get paid in this manner and every team loses $.
On August 19 2024 07:54 johnnyh123 wrote: Huge congrats to Clem, well deserved victory.
Clem's 8-0 over Serral in this tournament is pretty insane, mostly attributed to his amazing micro. The games were not bad, Serral played well, just not good enough for Clem's unstoppable performance.
Reynor almost took out Clem though, losing 2-3.
Clem must be super happy, this single weekend won him more $ than his entire career at $450k. Also, not sure if he will get a share of TL's prize money, I'm pretty sure Clem won TL a good few hundred thousand if not like a $1.5m additional prize.
The stage hosts already said if he were to win he won them 4mil, so it's more than u think.
A strange weekend for me. Having watched pretty much all the big events in the last decade, it was an odd feeling to search for things to do to distract myself from SC2. Although I followed along by checking the TL thread and Liquipedia from time to time (can you imagine not opening TL for 4-5 days? The agony)
Hopefully, there's a path forward for Starcraft 2 that doesn't involve going back to Saudi Arabia so that I'm at ease watching the next world championship, but I doubt it.
Anyhow, well done Clem, better luck next time Serral, and don't worry Ryung, I know you would have won that 400 k$ match.
On August 19 2024 07:54 johnnyh123 wrote: Huge congrats to Clem, well deserved victory.
Clem's 8-0 over Serral in this tournament is pretty insane, mostly attributed to his amazing micro. The games were not bad, Serral played well, just not good enough for Clem's unstoppable performance.
Reynor almost took out Clem though, losing 2-3.
Clem must be super happy, this single weekend won him more $ than his entire career at $450k. Also, not sure if he will get a share of TL's prize money, I'm pretty sure Clem won TL a good few hundred thousand if not like a $1.5m additional prize.
The stage hosts already said if he were to win he won them 4mil, so it's more than u think.
Nono, he wouldn't have won the $4m by him winning alone. TL has 2545 points rn, and Clem contributed 1000 points. Around 40% of the points thus far, and the event is not over yet, so probably less than 40% in the end.
There's no way TL will win #1 for $7m, but they might win #2 for $4m. So no, he alone did not win $4m. But he might have lifted them to #2 (if from #4, then that's $2.5m, I have mistyped, I meant to type $2.5m not $1.5m.)
So yeah, (if they did say so) stage hosts were wrong to say Clem won TL $4m, he contributed significantly for the potential $4m, not guaranteed. Even if they ended up with $4m, he alone did not do it, it was TL team from all the different games.
Finally, great showing from Clem, in this event, he is definitely the best player to show up. With SC2 player skills getting better and better, he is definitely, at this point in time, the best SC2 has ever seen.
On August 19 2024 08:01 luxon wrote: - also wtf is "mvp" in a 1v1 game, just make first place 450k then, or split the winnings more equitably.
From what I can tell, there's EWC-wide, Sony-sponsored MVP awards for every game, with team games being the focus. So for 1v1 games it basically just became a bonus for the champ, where the main intent is to reward the best player on the winning team in the bigger game categories.
MVP award should have been something like most entertaining game and split between the two participants. Or just divide into the total prize pool to give more to the lower placing players.
Clem absolutely crushed Serral that even if Serral was full time pro, he could have maybe taken 1-2 maps max. Team Liquid must be very happy about Clem.
Serral made few mistakes that I have never seen him make. And few really stubborn moves. But isn't it that better player crushing you makes you look like noob.
On August 19 2024 11:30 shadowyice wrote: solar scored 5-8, classic scored 4-9 and both walked away earning 20k while oliveria who scored 12-13 earned 15k
oh, i even forgot to mention that is exactly the same amount earned by heromarine (2-8), spirit (1-8) and coffee (0-8)
truly hilarious match format
It's an annual event with seedings based on the full year, not just a weekend tourney. Don't be dense.
On August 19 2024 11:30 shadowyice wrote: solar scored 5-8, classic scored 4-9 and both walked away earning 20k while oliveria who scored 12-13 earned 15k
oh, i even forgot to mention that is exactly the same amount earned by heromarine (2-8), spirit (1-8) and coffee (0-8)
truly hilarious match format
It's an annual event with seedings based on the full year, not just a weekend tourney. Don't be dense.
For the avoidance of same group encounter, group A lower bracket semifinal exit (Byun) and final exit (Oliveira) will face group B lower bracket round 1 exits (Classic and Coffee).
In a REASONABLE seeding, as Oliveira had a better result than Byun, Oliveira should be better seeded and be pit against the lower ranked Coffee.
Instead, they did a RANDOM seeding between the above players, making the progression from lower bracket semifinal to final completely meaningless so long as you cannot enter the 2nd vs 2nd match.
Truly hilarious seeding, for an ANNUAL event.
If the seeding mechanism has a better logic in it, please enlighten me.
On August 19 2024 11:30 shadowyice wrote: solar scored 5-8, classic scored 4-9 and both walked away earning 20k while oliveria who scored 12-13 earned 15k
oh, i even forgot to mention that is exactly the same amount earned by heromarine (2-8), spirit (1-8) and coffee (0-8)
truly hilarious match format
It's an annual event with seedings based on the full year, not just a weekend tourney. Don't be dense.
Don't try to defend this ridiculous format.
It doesn't do anything better than a regular double-elimination bracket, but it does many things much worse.
On August 19 2024 08:29 Nakajin wrote: A strange weekend for me. Having watched pretty much all the big events in the last decade, it was an odd feeling to search for things to do to distract myself from SC2. Although I followed along by checking the TL thread and Liquipedia from time to time (can you imagine not opening TL for 4-5 days? The agony)
Hopefully, there's a path forward for Starcraft 2 that doesn't involve going back to Saudi Arabia so that I'm at ease watching the next world championship, but I doubt it.
Anyhow, well done Clem, better luck next time Serral, and don't worry Ryung, I know you would have won that 400 k$ match.
Can’t disagree there man.
Aside from ethical concerns, there’s the actual eSport itself too. Terrible format for me, a venue you’re not gonna get many fans to go to and whatnot. Not an issue here I don’t believe (indeed unfathomable if we look at Clem’s play) but I think people forget that Gamers8 was maybe the only offline event in SC2’s history that had to be played with appreciable ping.
Also I mean I don’t think a big megatournament is really what the doctor ordered in terms of sustaining the scene in the medium or long term.
GSL could do with some love. WTL (although they mitigated it with some partnership fudging) also suffered from non-SC2 orgs picking up SC2 players specifically for this tournament.
Hey I’m one of life’s pessimists but I think SC2 gets dropped if the EWC properly takes off, because I haven’t seen all that much evidence that it’s a thing the organisers particularly care for.
On August 19 2024 11:30 shadowyice wrote: solar scored 5-8, classic scored 4-9 and both walked away earning 20k while oliveria who scored 12-13 earned 15k
oh, i even forgot to mention that is exactly the same amount earned by heromarine (2-8), spirit (1-8) and coffee (0-8)
truly hilarious match format
It's an annual event with seedings based on the full year, not just a weekend tourney. Don't be dense.
Don't try to defend this ridiculous format.
It doesn't do anything better than a regular double-elimination bracket, but it does many things much worse.
If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it.
I think you are missing one point - each of the players were guaranteed at least $15,000 (which is like 4x GSL S2 1st place prize).
So we had two phases of the tournament: Group A & B to early secure this sweet top 4 spot guaranting you at least $80,000 - all or nothing phase, that only top 3 players actual won anything (plus $5,000 bonus for Maru but we can skip that).
Knockout Bracket, where all players started from scratch to secure last spot in top 4. Bo3 made it that each map counted and I personally enjoyed emotions being high from the first game. Where for contrary in the final, when it was 2:0 for Clem, I was like "meh, it doesn't count, Serral still got this" (I was wrong at that time obviously)
Yep without Clem's performance TL would be around 1545, right below T1's 1600. Though if Clem still got like Top 7 he'd still have edged out T1. But of course there are some competitions left that could put T1 back above Teamliquid without Clem placing so high.
I didn't realize the club awards were THAT much money that's insane. But it makes sense in that each team has so many different teams for different games, and many games have multiple players.
I wonder if the teams give the players any % of the cut. If they do, imagine if it'd be funny if Serral lost on purpose and Clem shared him more money than if Serral won 1st place xD (Not accusing just putting it into perspective how much money it is).
MVP award is interesting, I guess if someone pulled off a few upsets or knocked out the best players of the tournament but then lost to someone else not as good, the one knocking out the best players could get the MVP. For example if Oliveira got the win vs Maru then beat Serral to make it to Top 4. Or if someone in Knockout bracket beat Maru Serral and Clem never had to face Maru Serral, something like that.
I want to see who got the other awards like best game/match, best strategy, etc. I hope Showtime and Gumiho got the best game award for how crazy their game 1 was, they both deserve it for playing different and it's no surprise their matches tend to be interesting to watch.
Edit: Oh nevermind, it was only Gamers8 that had Best Game, Best Strategy, Best Play awards. Sucks it got replaced with a MVP award, even for a 1v1 game.
Congratulations Clem, finally the big win! Other than that, the format was quite bad (bo3, really? And several « useless » bo5 just for seeding). Almost no crowd since the venue is far away / too expensive. Unfortunately this country has the cash to keep making events there, but that’s a pretty bad location for tournaments as we have seen
On August 19 2024 11:30 shadowyice wrote: solar scored 5-8, classic scored 4-9 and both walked away earning 20k while oliveria who scored 12-13 earned 15k
oh, i even forgot to mention that is exactly the same amount earned by heromarine (2-8), spirit (1-8) and coffee (0-8)
truly hilarious match format
It's an annual event with seedings based on the full year, not just a weekend tourney. Don't be dense.
For the avoidance of same group encounter, group A lower bracket semifinal exit (Byun) and final exit (Oliveira) will face group B lower bracket round 1 exits (Classic and Coffee).
In a REASONABLE seeding, as Oliveira had a better result than Byun, Oliveira should be better seeded and be pit against the lower ranked Coffee.
Instead, they did a RANDOM seeding between the above players, making the progression from lower bracket semifinal to final completely meaningless so long as you cannot enter the 2nd vs 2nd match.
Truly hilarious seeding, for an ANNUAL event.
If the seeding mechanism has a better logic in it, please enlighten me.
From what I understand the seeding in the knockout bracket is not completely random: those who advanced further get to play those who went out at the start. For this reason, Byun, who won a few matches, played Coffee who lost all of his. same thing for Oliveira. Feel free to correct me on this though, I'm not 100% sure.
That being said, even if there is logic to it, it's not very good. Shin and Showtime both losing 1 match and being out - bullshit. Oliveira winning two matches but getting last place just like Coffee - bullshit. The group stage also got really stupid when Byun lost two times to Oliveira and then Oliveira lost two times to Maru - like, what is this, haven't we already seen this match?
On August 19 2024 17:18 kajtarp wrote: Does anyone know what tournaments are left for this year/early next year? Is there something like a Calender somewhere?
thats it for big tournaments as of now. if esl / gsl continues is still very much up in the air. hell, even the weekly cups end next week.
someone in large teams really dropped the ball by not signing Serral at least temporarily. It was a very strong bet at 1000 points, but even 600 points can do a lot in the fight for Club Placements between 2nd and 6th, which are between $1M and $4M of prize money.
On August 19 2024 17:18 kajtarp wrote: Does anyone know what tournaments are left for this year/early next year? Is there something like a Calender somewhere?
Next tournament that I have in mind is the HomeStory Cup XXVI. Starts the 29th of november.
On August 19 2024 17:18 kajtarp wrote: Does anyone know what tournaments are left for this year/early next year? Is there something like a Calender somewhere?
Pig's said he planned to do his next Pigfest after EWC, but afaik it isn't set in stone yet. Should get an announcement soon if he's going through with it
If the MVP award doesn't go to herO, there's no point in an MVP award. 1st day felt like a Redbull Battlegrounds, there were so many repeat matches it was ridiculous.
2nd day was the true tournament, especially if you have any sympathy for the Protoss state of things. HerO only wasn't able to beat 1 player, Serral, on day 1,and that made it so he had to start all over again. I already saw herO as the best player on day 1, thought he could get to the final four again, but didn't actually believe he would go and do it. He then proceeds to do it establishing that he really is the best player here.
Day 3: herO got sick after his ridiculous effort and didn't play optimally, still he puts on a great show. Clem we knew would kill any zerg, he is the tvz specialist after all, and he did make an insanely strong statement with the few number of games lost. But Serral is in the military, remember, so he's not at his best, and clem already proved that he could beat him. So all he did the final day apart from playing amazingly was to beat herO. Had herO been just a little worse, clem would've faced Cure and lost, and it is not even certain he would've defeated Maru as well. Maybe it's just the way the tournament was structured with an entire day dedicated to the 4th place, but the tournament didn't convince me that Clem is better than herO. Hero admittedly lost to two players, clem and serral, but he almost beat everyone else. Meanwhile clem dodged any tvt, which would've been a danger for him, and also didn't even fight a korean zerg, which would've at least been a test as well. Clem played amazingly, but I am more amazed by herO. He plays the highest lvl pvt, beating his old self. And he reached even old stats pvz lvl. Still this doesn't mean that you can win as protoss. Play the highest peak of skill ever and you still only get a ro4, protoss seriously needs help.
Well played, absolutely well played, Clement Desplanches. Congrats as he has more than doubled his entire career earnings from the inaugural Esports World Cup.
Maru not making it through to the final four just shows how stacked this tournament was. Wasn't a fan of the straight sweeps in the final four either. Clem's 8-0 dominance vs. Serral is virtually unheard of, given Joona's peak form the past 12 months. That probably won't be replicated again but we'll see.
If they're doing this again next year, we're all in for a real treat again.
I actually kind of agree that herO should have won the MVP award. - herO was responsible for 78% of all Protoss series wins in the entire tournament. Of the total 9 series wins for Protoss, herO won 7. - herO played the most series in the entire tournament at 10. - He got us believing in Protoss again. - Showed great games, and really made the tournament interesting. Without herO, it would basically be a weekend of slugfests between T&Z. Literally it wouldn't be SC2 anymore, it would be TZ2.
I definitely was cheering on herO to win the entire thing after his great showing. It would have been an awesome storyline - Only player to play every day - Most series played - Lost to Serral in Upper Bracket 0-3, lost to Serral in Lower Bracket 2-3, then wins against Serral at the grand finals 5-x.
Almost like a classic hero story with our protagonist being herO.
On August 20 2024 01:42 johnnyh123 wrote: I actually kind of agree that herO should have won the MVP award. - herO was responsible for 78% of all Protoss series wins in the entire tournament. Of the total 9 series wins for Protoss, herO won 7. - herO played the most series in the entire tournament at 10. - He got us believing in Protoss again. - Showed great games, and really made the tournament interesting. Without herO, it would basically be a weekend of slugfests between T&Z. Literally it wouldn't be SC2 anymore, it would be TZ2.
I definitely was cheering on herO to win the entire thing after his great showing. It would have been an awesome storyline - Only player to play every day - Most series played - Lost to Serral in Upper Bracket 0-3, lost to Serral in Lower Bracket 2-3, then wins against Serral at the grand finals 5-x.
Almost like a classic hero story with our protagonist being herO.
It’s just fucking stupid to have an ‘MVP’ award in a 1v1, mano o mano tournament in the first place.
herO had a thrilling run, but Clem didn’t lose a series and went 9-0 from the Ro4 onwards.
You can’t not give it to Clem, that would be silly.
Mvp awards are for team sports where, even if your team sucks you can be so outstanding that your individual performance is recognised
On August 19 2024 23:50 ejozl wrote: Clem played amazingly, but I am more amazed by herO. He plays the highest lvl pvt, beating his old self. And he reached even old stats pvz lvl. Still this doesn't mean that you can win as protoss. Play the highest peak of skill ever and you still only get a ro4, protoss seriously needs help.
I like herO a lot but to think he played at "the highest peak of skill ever" at this tournament is pure copium, IMO. He probably didn't play at his personal peak, let alone any player ever.
herO had won vs Clem 3-0 just recently, so obviously it's possible with this patch / map pool. Clem was just much better this particular Sunday, just like he played much better than Serral in the finals. Repeat the same Ro4 this or next Sunday and I'm not sure Clem necessarily wins vs herO or Serral.
Sometimes one player hits the peak form of his life for one day is simply untouchable, that's it.
On August 19 2024 08:01 luxon wrote: - also wtf is "mvp" in a 1v1 game, just make first place 450k then, or split the winnings more equitably.
From what I can tell, there's EWC-wide, Sony-sponsored MVP awards for every game, with team games being the focus. So for 1v1 games it basically just became a bonus for the champ, where the main intent is to reward the best player on the winning team in the bigger game categories.
I miss ESL's Epic Nerd Baller award. It was so much cooler than this generic MVP for a 1v1 game.
Overall I thought this was a fantastic tournament. We got to see 18 of the best current SC2 players, got to see some amazing casting from talent who have put work in to get there and the stage production looked really on point and reminded me of some of the older Blizzcon events.
My only concern about this is the sustainability. It's a huge prize pool, expensive production and even with the viewing numbers as high as they were, they aren't exactly selling out stadiums and the crowd looks very sparse. Even if this continues with a reduced prize pool, I'd still like to see this again but unless they have something like this again to pull in players, then we won't get anyone new to replace the retiring players.
On August 19 2024 08:29 Nakajin wrote: A strange weekend for me. Having watched pretty much all the big events in the last decade, it was an odd feeling to search for things to do to distract myself from SC2. Although I followed along by checking the TL thread and Liquipedia from time to time (can you imagine not opening TL for 4-5 days? The agony)
Hopefully, there's a path forward for Starcraft 2 that doesn't involve going back to Saudi Arabia so that I'm at ease watching the next world championship, but I doubt it.
Anyhow, well done Clem, better luck next time Serral, and don't worry Ryung, I know you would have won that 400 k$ match.
100% agree. Though very happy for Clem, what a champ! In the long run, I don't think SCII esports can survive via a Saudi benefactor model if it doesn't make business sense independently. I totally understand why the players, casters, and fans are desperate enough to accept this in the short term after Blizzard, KeSPA, and GSL pulled the plug, but the reality is that if your game isn't popular enough to have a player base and consistent viewership that can attract corporate sponsors, your game needs to evolve. This is why chess is very quickly evolving towards faster time controls and more interesting game and tournament formats, and why the FIDE world championship circuit will either need to evolve or stubbornly put itself into a stasis ward of irrelevance. Taking Saudi money to prop your game up for a few more years in some ways just delays the inevitable, which in and of itself isn't bad. But when coupled with lending SCII's prestige to promote a bizarre event in Riyadh, and disorienting the players, devs, casters, and viewers as to the reality of the market dynamics...it doesn't feel right. And it doesn't look at and sound right. I tuned in one day briefly and I think the production team was pausing the in-game music when the players' names were being announced at the start of the game, but instead of cheers it was just silence because the playing hall was empty (a camera cut to the "audience" and I saw like 3 people). Seeing what I assume were members of the Saudi royal family up there yucking it up with players and casters just felt so gross. It's one thing for Bilbo to hold on to the ring of power for too long, it's a whole other thing for him to lend it to Sauron for a little while for a bit of extra cash. Too much poison dosed over not enough antidote, if I may butcher Bilbo's butter and bread analogy worse than a Saudi security agent butchers an American journalist.
The thing is while the Saudis are focused on geopolitical goals with these kinds of investments and corporate investors are focused on marketing ROI, in the long run both sets of goals require very significant viewership numbers with key target audiences. If it doesn't make sense to a corporate marketing department, it's eventually not going to make sense to the PR firms that are advising the Saudi government on this. I do think SCII is the "prestige" play here--and you're always going to want a few of those in your portfolio--but with no forthcoming DLC or other content associated with this IP it's only a matter of time before the Saudis also move on. The community will have gotten a couple more years of an esport and the players and casters will have gotten some much deserved financial support for a scene that probably couldn't survive without it. But at what cost?
I just hope esports doesn't become the laughing stock of the entertainment industry by ceding what should be an important event featuring the best players and the best games to an entity that cares neither about the games nor the players, and only cares about itself and how it's viewed in the world.
If you enjoyed the event, please don't get triggered by this post. Not trying to take away anything from the players or games or viewers who had a good time. I watched some myself and enjoyed too. Just hoping there can at least be some conversation about the very bizarre and unfortunate situation SCII and the esports industry more generally has found itself in here.
On August 19 2024 08:29 Nakajin wrote: A strange weekend for me. Having watched pretty much all the big events in the last decade, it was an odd feeling to search for things to do to distract myself from SC2. Although I followed along by checking the TL thread and Liquipedia from time to time (can you imagine not opening TL for 4-5 days? The agony)
Hopefully, there's a path forward for Starcraft 2 that doesn't involve going back to Saudi Arabia so that I'm at ease watching the next world championship, but I doubt it.
Anyhow, well done Clem, better luck next time Serral, and don't worry Ryung, I know you would have won that 400 k$ match.
100% agree. Though very happy for Clem, what a champ! In the long run, I don't think SCII esports can survive via a Saudi benefactor model if it doesn't make business sense independently. I totally understand why the players, casters, and fans are desperate enough to accept this in the short term after Blizzard, KeSPA, and GSL pulled the plug, but the reality is that if your game isn't popular enough to have a player base and consistent viewership that can attract corporate sponsors, your game needs to evolve. This is why chess is very quickly evolving towards faster time controls and more interesting game and tournament formats, and why the FIDE world championship circuit will either need to evolve or stubbornly put itself into a stasis ward of irrelevance. Taking Saudi money to prop your game up for a few more years in some ways just delays the inevitable, which in and of itself isn't bad. But when coupled with lending SCII's prestige to promote a bizarre event in Riyadh, and disorienting the players, devs, casters, and viewers as to the reality of the market dynamics...it doesn't feel right. And it doesn't look at and sound right. I tuned in one day briefly and I think the production team was pausing the in-game music when the players' names were being announced at the start of the game, but instead of cheers it was just silence because the playing hall was empty (a camera cut to the "audience" and I saw like 3 people). Seeing what I assume were members of the Saudi royal family up there yucking it up with players and casters just felt so gross. It's one thing for Bilbo to hold on to the ring of power for too long, it's a whole other thing for him to lend it to Sauron for a little while for a bit of extra cash. Too much poison dosed over not enough antidote, if I may butcher Bilbo's butter and bread analogy worse than a Saudi security agent butchers an American journalist.
The thing is while the Saudis are focused on geopolitical goals with these kinds of investments and corporate investors are focused on marketing ROI, in the long run both sets of goals require very significant viewership numbers with key target audiences. If it doesn't make sense to a corporate marketing department, it's eventually not going to make sense to the PR firms that are advising the Saudi government on this. I do think SCII is the "prestige" play here--and you're always going to want a few of those in your portfolio--but with no forthcoming DLC or other content associated with this IP it's only a matter of time before the Saudis also move on. The community will have gotten a couple more years of an esport and the players and casters will have gotten some much deserved financial support for a scene that probably couldn't survive without it. But at what cost?
I just hope esports doesn't become the laughing stock of the entertainment industry by ceding what should be an important event featuring the best players and the best games to an entity that cares neither about the games nor the players, and only cares about itself and how it's viewed in the world.
If you enjoyed the event, please don't get triggered by this post. Not trying to take away anything from the players or games or viewers who had a good time. I watched some myself and enjoyed too. Just hoping there can at least be some conversation about the very bizarre and unfortunate situation SCII and the esports industry more generally has found itself in here.
On August 19 2024 23:50 ejozl wrote: Clem played amazingly, but I am more amazed by herO. He plays the highest lvl pvt, beating his old self. And he reached even old stats pvz lvl. Still this doesn't mean that you can win as protoss. Play the highest peak of skill ever and you still only get a ro4, protoss seriously needs help.
I like herO a lot but to think he played at "the highest peak of skill ever" at this tournament is pure copium, IMO. He probably didn't play at his personal peak, let alone any player ever.
herO had won vs Clem 3-0 just recently, so obviously it's possible with this patch / map pool. Clem was just much better this particular Sunday, just like he played much better than Serral in the finals. Repeat the same Ro4 this or next Sunday and I'm not sure Clem necessarily wins vs herO or Serral.
Sometimes one player hits the peak form of his life for one day is simply untouchable, that's it.
Clem played this series better, but again herO was sick, had been playing a way rougher road, and even then the 4:0 could've easily been a 2:2, then factor in that T is favoured vs. toss.. herO didn't rly play better than him, but Clem's meddle wasn't really put to the test, he only beat 4 players.
What an performance from Clem, Congratulations! Well deserved Victory!
I think Clem must have been studying and analyzing Serral´s play a little extra though, 8-0 against the Goat himself is just... Insane. Just like Reynor "knows" Clem´s play (their match was much closer.)
Lastly I think TL.net could at least show a picture of clem holding the Trophy on the front page. Especially when it´s the biggest Tournament of the year.
On August 21 2024 14:55 ejozl wrote: Clem played this series better, but again herO was sick, had been playing a way rougher road, and even then the 4:0 could've easily been a 2:2, then factor in that T is favoured vs. toss.. herO didn't rly play better than him, but Clem's meddle wasn't really put to the test, he only beat 4 players.
Is Clem really to blame he never lost a series unlike herO who lost 3 series, two of them in 3-0 and 4-0 sweeps? Because this is why Clem had to play only 5 series vs 4 opponents. Because he never lost, easily dominating 4 series out of 5 with 3-0, 3-0, 4-0, 5-0, struggling a bit only vs Reynor.
herO had been playing a way rougher road only because he lost twice, is it a praise-worth achievement really?
Clem's map score was 18-2, 90% winrate - herO's was 20-12, 62% winrate. Clem's map score vs "Final Boss" Serral was 8-0 - herO's was 2-6.
Throughout the tournament herO's form was very good but not even his best, while Clem's form was god-like. This is why Clem won.
On August 21 2024 14:55 ejozl wrote: Clem played this series better, but again herO was sick, had been playing a way rougher road, and even then the 4:0 could've easily been a 2:2, then factor in that T is favoured vs. toss.. herO didn't rly play better than him, but Clem's meddle wasn't really put to the test, he only beat 4 players.
Is Clem really to blame he never lost a series unlike herO who lost 3 series, two of them in 3-0 and 4-0 sweeps? Because this is why Clem had to play only 5 series vs 4 opponents. Because he never lost, easily dominating 4 series out of 5 with 3-0, 3-0, 4-0, 5-0, struggling a bit only vs Reynor.
herO had been playing a way rougher road only because he lost twice, is it a praise-worth achievement really?
Clem's map score was 18-2, 90% winrate - herO's was 20-12, 62% winrate. Clem's map score vs "Final Boss" Serral was 8-0 - herO's was 2-6.
Throughout the tournament herO's form was very good but not even his best, while Clem's form was god-like. This is why Clem won.
Clem isn't to blame, but a 3 day tournament should probably have its winner, defeat more than 4 players. HerO just stole the spotlight for me, and that's because of the tournament structure, and his performance.
On August 19 2024 11:30 shadowyice wrote: solar scored 5-8, classic scored 4-9 and both walked away earning 20k while oliveria who scored 12-13 earned 15k
oh, i even forgot to mention that is exactly the same amount earned by heromarine (2-8), spirit (1-8) and coffee (0-8)
truly hilarious match format
Sometimes it comes down to some games are more important and he lost the ones that were.
In tennis you can win all of your service games without giving up a point and the other player can win the match if they win the tiebreaker points since those matter more. A soccer team can finish undefeated in their group game and lose in the round of 16, finishing with the same prize money as a team that went 1-0-2 and qualified with a bit of luck to the round of 16. It happens in every sport, win when it matters, don’t lose more than 50% of your games and there won’t be an issue.
On August 22 2024 01:25 clemserral wrote: Clem gonna go crazy until his wrists give out. Happens to every top Terran. The best players play Terran until their body gives out. It is what it is.
Did you make this account just to comment on this one post?
Besides the whole "fairness" question, I just found the tournament format pretty anti-climactic. After the first two days, you know 3 out of the 4 semifinalists, which removes a lot of the excitement out of days 3 & 4 to me. It kind of takes the wind out of the sails to have the tournament suddenly reset with 3 of the best players missing. The pacing just feels so off -- a tournament should ideally get more exciting and high-stakes as it goes on, so going back to what is essentially round 1 again 2 days in just felt kind of stupid.
This might be personal preference, but I also don't like a "group stage" with best-of-5s. To me, the appeal of the first couple days of an IEM is seeing each player play a bunch of bo3s in different matchups versus various opponents and seeing how they all shake out. Each match is less important in itself, but the storylines develop until the final matches are often do-or-die. Then we get into the truly high-stakes playoffs (where the top seeds get to skip one round -- a fair reward for a job well done) and that's when it turns to drawn-out best-of-5s.
I mean, IEM just feels like such an ideal format. It takes around the same time, delivers a lot more matches with more variety, and ramps up the intensity/stakes/series as the tournament goes on. You also get to see the best players throughout the whole tournament. Like, it kind of sucks as a viewer that Clem was playing amazing Starcraft and we only got to see him play 5 series, two of which were against the same player. Sure, they were long series, but I'd rather see an on-form Clem show his skills against many different players instead of facing Serral 8 times.
The format combined with the lack of a crowd made this tournament fall pretty flat for me.
On August 25 2024 02:04 WickedCestus wrote: Besides the whole "fairness" question, I just found the tournament format pretty anti-climactic. After the first two days, you know 3 out of the 4 semifinalists, which removes a lot of the excitement out of days 3 & 4 to me. It kind of takes the wind out of the sails to have the tournament suddenly reset with 3 of the best players missing. The pacing just feels so off -- a tournament should ideally get more exciting and high-stakes as it goes on, so going back to what is essentially round 1 again 2 days in just felt kind of stupid.
This might be personal preference, but I also don't like a "group stage" with best-of-5s. To me, the appeal of the first couple days of an IEM is seeing each player play a bunch of bo3s in different matchups versus various opponents and seeing how they all shake out. Each match is less important in itself, but the storylines develop until the final matches are often do-or-die. Then we get into the truly high-stakes playoffs (where the top seeds get to skip one round -- a fair reward for a job well done) and that's when it turns to drawn-out best-of-5s.
I mean, IEM just feels like such an ideal format. It takes around the same time, delivers a lot more matches with more variety, and ramps up the intensity/stakes/series as the tournament goes on. You also get to see the best players throughout the whole tournament. Like, it kind of sucks as a viewer that Clem was playing amazing Starcraft and we only got to see him play 5 series, two of which were against the same player. Sure, they were long series, but I'd rather see an on-form Clem show his skills against many different players instead of facing Serral 8 times.
The format combined with the lack of a crowd made this tournament fall pretty flat for me.
I disagree with almost everything here. The format was really cool and innovative. The lopsided final rounds managed to be as interesting as they could be due to the tournament structure. The 5 out of 9 was really cool.
Whoever came up with this event structure did a great job.
On August 25 2024 02:04 WickedCestus wrote: Besides the whole "fairness" question, I just found the tournament format pretty anti-climactic. After the first two days, you know 3 out of the 4 semifinalists, which removes a lot of the excitement out of days 3 & 4 to me. It kind of takes the wind out of the sails to have the tournament suddenly reset with 3 of the best players missing. The pacing just feels so off -- a tournament should ideally get more exciting and high-stakes as it goes on, so going back to what is essentially round 1 again 2 days in just felt kind of stupid.
This might be personal preference, but I also don't like a "group stage" with best-of-5s. To me, the appeal of the first couple days of an IEM is seeing each player play a bunch of bo3s in different matchups versus various opponents and seeing how they all shake out. Each match is less important in itself, but the storylines develop until the final matches are often do-or-die. Then we get into the truly high-stakes playoffs (where the top seeds get to skip one round -- a fair reward for a job well done) and that's when it turns to drawn-out best-of-5s.
I mean, IEM just feels like such an ideal format. It takes around the same time, delivers a lot more matches with more variety, and ramps up the intensity/stakes/series as the tournament goes on. You also get to see the best players throughout the whole tournament. Like, it kind of sucks as a viewer that Clem was playing amazing Starcraft and we only got to see him play 5 series, two of which were against the same player. Sure, they were long series, but I'd rather see an on-form Clem show his skills against many different players instead of facing Serral 8 times.
The format combined with the lack of a crowd made this tournament fall pretty flat for me.
Can’t disagree with basically any of that
There is no perfect format, they all have some kind of pluses and minuses, so we have to bear that in mind.
But assessing this particular format, what does it do better than others?
Round robins or Swiss formats you get a mix of games, they mitigate things like bracket luck, or having a singular bad series. Single elim brings huge stakes and drama, but you maybe have an underwhelming latter stage if a few of the top dogs are eliminated early. Etc etc
People will have preferences for various spectacle, or sporting fairness reasons, but I can see those reasons at least. This format I just don’t see what it does well, and a lot it does badly.
Traditionally, a Katowice starts slowly but there is some jeopardy. The big guns usually but don’t always make it out of groups. Everyone else is fighting to get out. Then the hype just builds from there as we get to playoffs and the anticipated matchups.
Doing a format where you’re playing for a Ro4 slot, or basically nothing, for two whole days. Clem and Dark had two of those 4 sewn up pretty early too. So hey, there’s the intrigue of who makes it for that remaining one. Except it’s in a format where Serral/Maru etc have an extra shot, and let’s be real it’s exceedingly likely to be one of them.
Also way too many immediate rematches as well, which I’m not a massive fan of, but opinions may vary!
Then we get to the nail biting, single elimination gauntlet, ok cool it’s intense stuff. Except make it Bo3 for some reason.
Also have two of your players only have one shot and enter at this stage.
It’s just pretty messy all round, it doesn’t build gradually to a crescendo from a quiet start, it sorta started quite intense, high stakes then fell off a cliff for a day. Then you had a handful of playoff matches left to try and pick it up.
Minor tweaks, I think you make it much better. If you’re gonna do the straight to the Ro4 thing (which tbh I don’t massively like anyway), make THAT the single elimination gauntlet. Have it for one slot, have it for a day, feed it into a double elim bracket and have players who advanced far, get seeded into later rounds as we go. Let all your players play that stage! You get a pretty high stakes mini-tournament, no mistakes for a pretty big mini-prize. Then you’re straight into a regular knockout bracket where there’s stakes on most matches.
Note, those are tweaks I’d make around the base format we saw, I wouldn’t personally adopt that as a base to start with.
EPT
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/EPT/EWC2024/ewcro4.png)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/EPT/EWC2024/ewcgroups.png)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/EPT/EWC2024/ewcknockout.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/s36Wm6R.png)
