The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings - Page 7

On July 25 2025 15:08 PremoBeats wrote:
How is Serral the best to have ever played because he "stands on the shoulders of giants"? How exactly did the KeSPA period influence this bloke sitting in his sauna in Finland, starting SC2 full time after finishing school? He didn't inherit a Korean team house, a KeSPA coach or a Proleague slot - he just dismantled the players who did :D

Sometimes, to me it looks like people simply cannot accept that their heros from back then have been outperformed.

On July 25 2025 15:36 johnnyh123 wrote:
Actually, my original sentence on the players today are "the best to have ever played SC2" wasn't referring to Serral specifically. In fact, I don't think he's the best player to have played. I think Clem has a higher peak, just look at the 2024 EWC final.

Also, you're missing the fundamental point about competitive depth vs individual achievement.
Infrastructure: Yes, Serral didn't inherit Korean infrastructure - that's exactly why his dominance is less impressive from a GOAT perspective. He succeeded when the competitive ecosystem had already contracted dramatically.

Evidence of stagnation: Your list of "established players" in 2019 actually proves my point. You're naming players who were already established 5-7 years earlier! This isn't strength - it's stagnation. Where are the fresh challengers pushing these veterans? Where are the power hungry kids that is willing to grind it out when they are winning close to $0 per tournament? That's the definition of a declining competitive scene.

Skill vs Competition: You're also conflating individual skill progression with competitive environment - they're completely different concepts.

Yes, today's players are technically stronger because they've absorbed 15 years of accumulated knowledge, refined builds, and perfected mechanics. They absolutely "stand on the shoulders of giants" in terms of game understanding.

But that's exactly why the competitive environment is weaker, not stronger.

Peak Era Comparison: In 2013-2015, you had dozens of players also learning from those giants while the giants were still competing at their peak:
- MVP/Nestea/MC/MMA/etc. still hungry
- KeSPA legends in their prime
- new talent emerging from strong regional scenes
- all pushing each other simultaneously

Today's scene has the knowledge but lacks competitive pressure. From 2016~, Korean team houses were closing, Proleague was gone, and players faced fewer practice partners with less infrastructure.

Chess analogy: It's like claiming today's chess players are in the most competitive era because they have access to computer analysis that Kasparov didn't have. The tools are better, but if there are only 10 serious competitors left instead of 100, the competitive environment is objectively weaker.

Standing on giants' shoulders makes you taller, but it doesn't make the mountain you're climbing any higher if all the other climbers went home.

Regarding military: Your "different styles of competitiveness" argument is backwards. When 30+ year old military returnees can crack top-16/18 immediately after 2+ years away (Challenge B still stands), that screams weak depth. In 2013-2015, military service was a career death sentence - the scene was too competitive.

Innovation, Maru, soO, etc. had to fight through hundreds of Korean prospects just to qualify. Today's qualifiers are thin by comparison.

My closing thoughts: Serral didn't "beat the meta" - he inherited a solved meta and executed it against a depleted field. The fact that we're still discussing 2013-2015 players as his main competition in 2019+ proves the scene stopped producing elite talent.

It's not about discrediting people's skill - it's about context. Dominating 30 teams in the NBA is more impressive than dominating 8 teams, regardless of individual talent level.

On July 25 2025 15:46 MJG wrote:

He dismantled players who came through the KeSPA structure half a decade after it collapsed.

Half a decade is significantly longer than careers lasted when the scene was peaking.

So I guess I accept it in the same way that I accept Jake Paul beating Mike Tyson in a boxing match.

It doesn't make Jake Paul the GOAT of heavyweight boxing, it's simply a demonstration that time waits for no man.

EDIT:

Your post also makes it sound like you believe Serral never learned anything from the Korean scene on his way to the top, because "standing on the shoulders of giants" means nothing more than to learn from what came before.

If you genuinely believe that Serral isn't standing on the shoulders of giants then you're being delusional, so I'll assume it's just bad phrasing on your part, and you might want to clarify what you actually meant.

On July 25 2025 16:49 kajtarp wrote:


This analogy is completely wrong. Look at Maru or herO who are here since the WoL era. Or look at Classic who is here since the early Hots era. They are playing better than ever in Lotv even compared to your so called era of "Kespa structures" even after teamhouses disbanding. Todays best players with their accumulated skill in both mechanics and strategy would absolutely stomp tournaments from 10 or 10+ years ago. Meanwhile in your analogy Mike Tyson is indeed older than his prime, but by multiple decades. For the love of god he is 59 year old now. Not 30 something like some of the still competing progamers. Meanwhile Classic is 33, who just beated the 23 year old Clem 3 times in a row after having a 15-20 match losing streak. herO is 32. Rogue is 31. Not 59 or 60+.

There was an interview with soO sometime after his 2nd four finals run or so, maybe a bit later, where he also said the game is more competitive than ever, despite team houses disbanding and the players skill ceiling is also higher than ever. You can see that with your own eyes. Just watch a match from the semis or finals from the past few years from the biggest tournaments and compare the level of gameplay you see to the end of Hots which is the so called "most competitive era" by many. Let's just say after getting used to todays standard you will not be amazed how they played back then. Its funny how we have a progamer who played like 6 finals in both the so called "most competetive era" and later in the so called "declining era" and he states the declining era is much more competitive. Yet many of you is just simply writing the Lotv era completely off. How convenient.

Honestly i didn't really wanted to comment in this thread. When i saw the opening post claiming Maru is best player ever, and Serral is just 11th i was laughing my ass off. For me this was/is just "oh,just another thread of this bs". I was planning to just let it be. It's one thing claiming Maru is the best ever. I can somewhat get behind that logic, even though i completely disagree, but putting Serral at 11th at the same time is borderline ridiculous.

The argument that Serral hasn't won any GSL's is also getting complety old. Yes, he didn't win any. He's just continously washing up the floor with the GSL winners and the very best of Korea since 2018 and i am not exaggarating here. Just look at his winrate against the very best. I'm not a Serral fanboy. You can look back pre 2018 blizzcon threads where i was very vocabular about some people thinking its a granted Serral victory, just because he won a Super Tournament before. Boy, was i completely proven wrong, and continously proven wrong ever since...

Meanwhile there are also a few things to consider. First, the claim of Terran being that underdog underpowered race while Zerg is continously OP is just simply not true. Remember that horrible Raven seeker missile mass Ghost meta. Maru has won several GSL's off that meta. It was borderline unbeatable, Terrans could just melt 50-80 supply worth of armies without losing a single supply and only casting spells costing energy only. It was only so OP, that it was completely patched out of the game. It still took 4-5 patches to completely remove it though. Or even if we look recent matches. Just watch back Dallas, where terrans was down 30-40 workers for quite a long time and still did not die because of mules. When terrans win against Zerg is pure skill, but when Zergs win its because of balance argument is just getting boring at this point.

Second, Maru won several of his titles in the absence of Rogue. Once he was forced to go to military. Had Rogue not forced to undergo the usual korean military service it would be more trophies for Rogue than what he has now, and less for Maru.

Last but not least, just look back previous video interviews. When progamers were asked who is best player 9 out of 10 said Serral. Even Maru himself said multiple times that Serral is best player.

Had Rogue not forced to undergo the usual korean military service it would be more trophies for Rogue than what he has now, and less for Maru.

On July 25 2025 15:36 johnnyh123 wrote:
Actually, my original sentence on the players today are "the best to have ever played SC2" wasn't referring to Serral specifically. In fact, I don't think he's the best player to have played. I think Clem has a higher peak, just look at the 2024 EWC final.

Also, you're missing the fundamental point about competitive depth vs individual achievement.
Infrastructure: Yes, Serral didn't inherit Korean infrastructure - that's exactly why his dominance is less impressive from a GOAT perspective. He succeeded when the competitive ecosystem had already contracted dramatically.

Evidence of stagnation: Your list of "established players" in 2019 actually proves my point. You're naming players who were already established 5-7 years earlier! This isn't strength - it's stagnation. Where are the fresh challengers pushing these veterans? Where are the power hungry kids that is willing to grind it out when they are winning close to $0 per tournament? That's the definition of a declining competitive scene.

Skill vs Competition: You're also conflating individual skill progression with competitive environment - they're completely different concepts.

Yes, today's players are technically stronger because they've absorbed 15 years of accumulated knowledge, refined builds, and perfected mechanics. They absolutely "stand on the shoulders of giants" in terms of game understanding.

But that's exactly why the competitive environment is weaker, not stronger.

Peak Era Comparison: In 2013-2015, you had dozens of players also learning from those giants while the giants were still competing at their peak:
- MVP/Nestea/MC/MMA/etc. still hungry
- KeSPA legends in their prime
- new talent emerging from strong regional scenes
- all pushing each other simultaneously

Today's scene has the knowledge but lacks competitive pressure. From 2016~, Korean team houses were closing, Proleague was gone, and players faced fewer practice partners with less infrastructure.

Chess analogy: It's like claiming today's chess players are in the most competitive era because they have access to computer analysis that Kasparov didn't have. The tools are better, but if there are only 10 serious competitors left instead of 100, the competitive environment is objectively weaker.

Standing on giants' shoulders makes you taller, but it doesn't make the mountain you're climbing any higher if all the other climbers went home.

Regarding military: Your "different styles of competitiveness" argument is backwards. When 30+ year old military returnees can crack top-16/18 immediately after 2+ years away (Challenge B still stands), that screams weak depth. In 2013-2015, military service was a career death sentence - the scene was too competitive.

Innovation, Maru, soO, etc. had to fight through hundreds of Korean prospects just to qualify. Today's qualifiers are thin by comparison.

My closing thoughts: Serral didn't "beat the meta" - he inherited a solved meta and executed it against a depleted field. The fact that we're still discussing 2013-2015 players as his main competition in 2019+ proves the scene stopped producing elite talent.

It's not about discrediting people's skill - it's about context. Dominating 30 teams in the NBA is more impressive than dominating 8 teams, regardless of individual talent level.

On July 25 2025 15:46 MJG wrote:

He dismantled players who came through the KeSPA structure half a decade after it collapsed.

Half a decade is significantly longer than careers lasted when the scene was peaking.

So I guess I accept it in the same way that I accept Jake Paul beating Mike Tyson in a boxing match.

It doesn't make Jake Paul the GOAT of heavyweight boxing, it's simply a demonstration that time waits for no man.

EDIT:

Your post also makes it sound like you believe Serral never learned anything from the Korean scene on his way to the top, because "standing on the shoulders of giants" means nothing more than to learn from what came before.

If you genuinely believe that Serral isn't standing on the shoulders of giants then you're being delusional, so I'll assume it's just bad phrasing on your part, and you might want to clarify what you actually meant.

On July 25 2025 17:52 PremoBeats wrote:


Serral butchered Clem before.. now their last matches have been decided in the last game. I say best in "best statistics". Clem is far from reaching Serral's level in all relevant data sets.

I see it exactly the opposite: He beat players that came out of the best infrastructure the game ever had. That is way more impressive than being forged by that infrastructure and being good.

Again: A lack of new players does not necessarily mean stagnation. The entrance barriers simply have evolved in a more stable environment. Different, not necessarily harder or easier. It is context dependent.

No, I don't. Individual skill is what contributes to competitiveness. For example: 100 C tier pros duking it out is not nearly as competitive as 15 A tier pros.

Yet, the skill is higher than ever.

If you only had 100, instead of 10 because the overall level was lower, that is nothing to write home about (see C/A tier comparison above). I don’t think that is an adequate or appropriate comparison for KeSPA v modern, but neither is your NBA example.

Military was a death sentence because a 2 year break in a 4 year game that is dishing out add ons every 3 years is simply tough to get back into. The release cycle changed, making the environment more stable. On top, new blood became more scare… it was a positive feed back loop until it became ever more unattractive for new players.

Serral pushed the meta and adapted so many times that I have a hard time taking this notion seriously. The main competition of Serral atm is Clem, as he sweeps all others. It was Reynor before. MaxPax in the regionals. AND players from the prime era.

Imo, individual level matters and it is higher than ever. And if the level of play today is the highest we have seen - and it is - then beating the best now is by definition the hardest challenge the game has ever offered, especially when you have a 85%+ win rate monster to beat (going for once away from the fallacious Serral perspective where the SC2 world is only seen from the POV of how easy it is for him to win). I’d agree though, that winning a GSL post 2020 is much easier than before, also because the best of the world simply did not participate.
Another thing that distorts the skill comparison is how GSL (besides Worlds) was the most viewed tournament and there you simply had a system that deployed cruel and unforgiving setups. This amplified the perception of a deeper player field as favorites dropped down more often in these more volatile Bo3s. But had there been more 10-player round robins or 6 player group stages that were fully played out, the favorites would have been much clearer. This means that a GSL (not all tournaments) were much harder to win in the prime era than today. But it doesn’t necessarily translate to a more competitive environment per se, as GSL is just one tournament among many and there have been absolutely easy money grabs back then too, where favorites prevailed regularly.

Talking about 2018, you basically make the argument that the lack of new players from this less than 1.5 year time period since the KeSPA disbandment and the simultaneous decline of the existing pros made it easy for Serral to ascend, which is simply not supported by data.



Half a decade? KeSPA disbanded late 2016, Serral started beating them early 2018. 1.5 years max, not a decade.

Of course Serral learned from them, that is not the point. But standing on the shoulders of giants sounds like these players were any match for him after he turned full time pro, which statistically they just were not. The only one who could match Serral when confronting him regularly was Rogue. All others have crippling win rates against him. And as I statistically showed, it was not because of a mass decline, as the win rates of other foreigners did not go up at the same time or same rate against these very players.


@dedede: The quote by Rogue is the opinion of one pro. The statistics don't support that opinion.

Half a decade? KeSPA disbanded late 2016, Serral started beating them early 2018. 1.5 years max, not a decade.

On July 25 2025 18:11 Charoisaur wrote:

You're wrong. soO may have said in 2017 that the skill level is higher than ever, but nowadays the consensus among koreans is that the skill level is lower. Dark and Inno have said they are slower and don't feel as sharp anymore, Maru can't practice that much anymore due to injuries, etc.






Are you speaking of this period where Maru won 2 tournaments as the sole terran in the ro8? LOL

2018 Global StarCraft II League Season 1
World Electronic Sports Games 2017


Serral won several of his titles in the absence of {insert any of Inno, Zest, Stats, herO, Classic, soO, Rogue, TY, sOs, PartinG} Had any of them not been forced to undergo korean military it would be less trophies for Serral



Right now they do or maybe since 2023. Before that the perception was relatively even or sometimes even with Maru as the favorite like at the end of 2021.
Also Maru was the stronger player for 2010-2018, does that count for nothing?

Also Maru was the stronger player for 2010-2018, does that count for nothing?

On July 25 2025 18:07 dedede wrote:


Just posting something what Rogue himself says if you think your "statistics" is more reliable than the words from a WCS/IEM champion then it's totally fine


The strongest argument for Serral's GOAT statement is his performance in 2024-2025, which is a decade later after kespa disbanded, playing the 30+ years old ex-Proleague players who have done 2 years military services. It’s been a steady decline since 2016, and now the scene is at its least competitive, where everything hinges on a single EWC SC2 confirmation tweet. If Serral had only won WCS 2018 and didn’t have these last two years of performances, the GOAT discussion would still be Maru vs Rogue. Maru had the greatest performance and achievement in 2018 despite not getting the WCS champion, same as Serral had the greatest performance in 2024 despite being overshadowed in the EWC losing 0-5 to Clem.
Also the "early" 2018 is wrong, the only tournament in early 2018 is WESG where Maru beat him 3-0. Let's be concise

On July 25 2025 18:17 dedede wrote:
I know what they would say. They’ll cope with something like “Serral only really started playing in 2017 because he hadn’t graduated,” ignoring the fact that Maru and Life both won HOTS championships while still in school and that Serral joined ENCE back in 2013 (the active period is 2011-Now based on his Liquipedia page).

On July 25 2025 17:52 PremoBeats wrote:
Half a decade? KeSPA disbanded late 2016, Serral started beating them early 2018. 1.5 years max, not a decade.

On July 25 2025 17:52 PremoBeats wrote:
Of course Serral learned from them, that is not the point.

On July 25 2025 18:32 kajtarp wrote:


Seriously, how the hell do you compare being in school in Korea in the homecountry of sc2 esports with a completely established ecosystem supporting Starcraft progaming, to being in school in Finland? Your arguments are getting more and more ridiculous.

Its not just that all team houses and prolegue was established in Korea. Kids trying to be a progamer could attend special schools with more leniancy so they could grow as progamers. Sometimes even matches were rescheduled in GSL so that very young players could attend their matches. Compare that to being a student in Finland.

On July 25 2025 14:37 PremoBeats wrote:
@WombaT: Saw your post, after sending mine: As always, your contributions are a treat to read
I haven't forgotten the quirks, I simply want to collect more and finish my project first. The Weeding (huehue) was a blast btw... the set I prepared was received insanely well and I got an invitation to play at another in 2 months lol :D

On July 25 2025 18:24 PremoBeats wrote:


Yup, I think statistics are worth more than any individual's expert opinion. Expert opinions are actually the lowest scientific evidence.
Serral started beating Koreans regularly at the start of 2018. That notion is correct. I didn't say he started winning tournaments against Koreans in early 2018.

We won't change each other's opinions either way. Sadly I gotta work now and as I don't want to spoil the results, I'll be off until tomorrow. I hope we get killer matches...