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On March 08 2024 10:03 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 09:57 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:53 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:48 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:42 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:39 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:25 jinjin5000 wrote:
lmfao reddit diamond protoss balance whine brigade got what they wanted after months of whining despite it not being issue at pro level just because they had excuse to whine about mine having a "buff" on unburrow part.
That's fucking amazing. You'd think if they spent fraction of time whining to practicing, they would have been in masters long, long time ago. just a payback for the observer nerf  I dunno if i like the radius nerf but the rest is completely fine imo as i said wms lead to some of the most unfun interactions (even if not a problem really at high levels), which is a very fine reason to do changes against that (same goes for other of those insta poof units like disruptors). Now reddit knows it will work and /r/starcraft will turn into battle.net forums like it has been for past few months for rest of eternity. I mean why shouldnt they change unfun interactions? Because they are neccessary for the balance? Sounds like a shit crux to rely on. I won't deny units like disruptor, widow mines, ect are terrible unit design and SC2 has way too much of instant lose aoe units/harass units, but touching a unit that only really affects pvt at low level and has much bigger implication for tvz just because diamond protoss redditors whined really hard for past few months is just sending wrong message. People pulling forward pro stats/"there was a BUFF to mines!!!" justification to rally their thinly-veiled agenda when there were much needed concerns elsewhere just proves to these guys that what they do are working. If they were going to touch these units, they should really touch a lot of them and revamp all at once instead of "community feedback". If you are going to touch these units, don't do it in way that justify these low level whiners pushing their own agenda. Only if those whiners spent fraction of time in the game instead of whining, they wouldn't have widow mine drop as concern anymore to them lol. I mean wms were still frutrating to pros as well (can listen to e.g. showtime on his stream occasionally mentioning it iirc), so the unfun part isnt only for lower levels tho it was obv not unbalanced on pro level. boy, if you are going to take those complaints on stream from pros as proof of unbalanced on pro level, IDK what to tell you lmfao.
Frustrating is not equal to unbalanced and never did i say that.
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On March 08 2024 10:06 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 10:03 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:57 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:53 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:48 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:42 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:39 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:25 jinjin5000 wrote:
lmfao reddit diamond protoss balance whine brigade got what they wanted after months of whining despite it not being issue at pro level just because they had excuse to whine about mine having a "buff" on unburrow part.
That's fucking amazing. You'd think if they spent fraction of time whining to practicing, they would have been in masters long, long time ago. just a payback for the observer nerf I dunno if i like the radius nerf but the rest is completely fine imo as i said wms lead to some of the most unfun interactions (even if not a problem really at high levels), which is a very fine reason to do changes against that (same goes for other of those insta poof units like disruptors). Now reddit knows it will work and /r/starcraft will turn into battle.net forums like it has been for past few months for rest of eternity. I mean why shouldnt they change unfun interactions? Because they are neccessary for the balance? Sounds like a shit crux to rely on. I won't deny units like disruptor, widow mines, ect are terrible unit design and SC2 has way too much of instant lose aoe units/harass units, but touching a unit that only really affects pvt at low level and has much bigger implication for tvz just because diamond protoss redditors whined really hard for past few months is just sending wrong message. People pulling forward pro stats/"there was a BUFF to mines!!!" justification to rally their thinly-veiled agenda when there were much needed concerns elsewhere just proves to these guys that what they do are working. If they were going to touch these units, they should really touch a lot of them and revamp all at once instead of "community feedback". If you are going to touch these units, don't do it in way that justify these low level whiners pushing their own agenda. Only if those whiners spent fraction of time in the game instead of whining, they wouldn't have widow mine drop as concern anymore to them lol. I mean wms were still frutrating to pros as well (can listen to e.g. showtime on his stream occasionally mentioning it iirc), so the unfun part isnt only for lower levels tho it was obv not unbalanced on pro level. boy, if you are going to take those complaints on stream from pros as proof of unbalanced on pro level, IDK what to tell you lmfao. Frustrating is not equal to unbalanced and never did i say that.
So long as we're all clear that we're not nerfing the Widow Mine for balance reasons, but because we don't think it's fun. Want to get all of our facts straight when Zerg wins again this year when TvZ balance takes a hit.
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Northern Ireland25771 Posts
Are these good? Fuck knows! Is the fact that such a slew of changes are even being considered for a ‘dead game’ somewhat positive, I’d say so
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On March 08 2024 10:06 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 10:03 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:57 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:53 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:48 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:42 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:39 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:25 jinjin5000 wrote:
lmfao reddit diamond protoss balance whine brigade got what they wanted after months of whining despite it not being issue at pro level just because they had excuse to whine about mine having a "buff" on unburrow part.
That's fucking amazing. You'd think if they spent fraction of time whining to practicing, they would have been in masters long, long time ago. just a payback for the observer nerf I dunno if i like the radius nerf but the rest is completely fine imo as i said wms lead to some of the most unfun interactions (even if not a problem really at high levels), which is a very fine reason to do changes against that (same goes for other of those insta poof units like disruptors). Now reddit knows it will work and /r/starcraft will turn into battle.net forums like it has been for past few months for rest of eternity. I mean why shouldnt they change unfun interactions? Because they are neccessary for the balance? Sounds like a shit crux to rely on. I won't deny units like disruptor, widow mines, ect are terrible unit design and SC2 has way too much of instant lose aoe units/harass units, but touching a unit that only really affects pvt at low level and has much bigger implication for tvz just because diamond protoss redditors whined really hard for past few months is just sending wrong message. People pulling forward pro stats/"there was a BUFF to mines!!!" justification to rally their thinly-veiled agenda when there were much needed concerns elsewhere just proves to these guys that what they do are working. If they were going to touch these units, they should really touch a lot of them and revamp all at once instead of "community feedback". If you are going to touch these units, don't do it in way that justify these low level whiners pushing their own agenda. Only if those whiners spent fraction of time in the game instead of whining, they wouldn't have widow mine drop as concern anymore to them lol. I mean wms were still frutrating to pros as well (can listen to e.g. showtime on his stream occasionally mentioning it iirc), so the unfun part isnt only for lower levels tho it was obv not unbalanced on pro level. boy, if you are going to take those complaints on stream from pros as proof of unbalanced on pro level, IDK what to tell you lmfao. Frustrating is not equal to unbalanced and never did i say that.
sc2 is full of these frustrating aoe esports units, but touching them just now when it posed not much of problem in pro PvT while it has bigger implication of TvZ just because protoss redditors whined enough is just poor man.
Adjust mines/other unfun aoe units in a big patch all together at once instead of proving balance council will 100% be influenced by community brigading is terrible showing and only encourages repeat of what has been happening for months beforehand. I'm just sick of the whining on the subreddit that has been plaguing reddit for months now. It has never been this bad historically ever but moment redditors realize they have influence over balance like current one, it will just get worse. And it has been terrible for past few months. Can't wait for repeat forever now.
I get it, its frustrating unfun unit. But all this proves is that those spam posting whine posts with obvious alt accounts/trying to justify it on recent buff or pro performance was just annoying to see as they are clearly pushing their own agenda to their own benefit lol.
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On March 08 2024 10:14 WombaT wrote:
Are these good? Fuck knows! Is the fact that such a slew of changes are even being considered for a ‘dead game’ somewhat positive, I’d say so
Wombat if we're going to start balancing the game around whatever is the most popular thing for r/starcraft to bitch about then I don't know if we can call this game alive, or a zombie.
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Northern Ireland25771 Posts
On March 08 2024 10:15 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 10:06 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 10:03 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:57 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:53 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:48 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:42 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:39 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:25 jinjin5000 wrote:
lmfao reddit diamond protoss balance whine brigade got what they wanted after months of whining despite it not being issue at pro level just because they had excuse to whine about mine having a "buff" on unburrow part.
That's fucking amazing. You'd think if they spent fraction of time whining to practicing, they would have been in masters long, long time ago. just a payback for the observer nerf I dunno if i like the radius nerf but the rest is completely fine imo as i said wms lead to some of the most unfun interactions (even if not a problem really at high levels), which is a very fine reason to do changes against that (same goes for other of those insta poof units like disruptors). Now reddit knows it will work and /r/starcraft will turn into battle.net forums like it has been for past few months for rest of eternity. I mean why shouldnt they change unfun interactions? Because they are neccessary for the balance? Sounds like a shit crux to rely on. I won't deny units like disruptor, widow mines, ect are terrible unit design and SC2 has way too much of instant lose aoe units/harass units, but touching a unit that only really affects pvt at low level and has much bigger implication for tvz just because diamond protoss redditors whined really hard for past few months is just sending wrong message. People pulling forward pro stats/"there was a BUFF to mines!!!" justification to rally their thinly-veiled agenda when there were much needed concerns elsewhere just proves to these guys that what they do are working. If they were going to touch these units, they should really touch a lot of them and revamp all at once instead of "community feedback". If you are going to touch these units, don't do it in way that justify these low level whiners pushing their own agenda. Only if those whiners spent fraction of time in the game instead of whining, they wouldn't have widow mine drop as concern anymore to them lol. I mean wms were still frutrating to pros as well (can listen to e.g. showtime on his stream occasionally mentioning it iirc), so the unfun part isnt only for lower levels tho it was obv not unbalanced on pro level. boy, if you are going to take those complaints on stream from pros as proof of unbalanced on pro level, IDK what to tell you lmfao. Frustrating is not equal to unbalanced and never did i say that. sc2 is full of these frustrating aoe esports units, but touching them just now when it posed not much of problem in pro PvT while it has bigger implication of TvZ just because protoss redditors whined enough is just poor man. Adjust mines/other unfun aoe units in a big patch all together at once instead of proving balance council will 100% be influenced by community brigading is terrible showing and only encourages repeat of what has been happening for months beforehand. I'm just sick of the whining on the subreddit that has been plaguing reddit for months now. It has never been this bad historically ever but moment redditors realize they have influence over balance like current one, it will just get worse. And it has been terrible for past few months. Can't wait for repeat forever now. I get it, its frustrating unfun unit. But all this proves is that those spam posting whine posts with obvious alt accounts/trying to justify it on recent buff or pro performance was just annoying to see as they are clearly pushing their own agenda to their own benefit lol.
Fair but as the pro scene is gradually winding down I mean there’s something to be said for making the game a bit more enjoyable at a casual level.
The game’s been balanced based of a pro level of play for like forever
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Northern Ireland25771 Posts
On March 08 2024 10:19 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 10:14 WombaT wrote:
Are these good? Fuck knows! Is the fact that such a slew of changes are even being considered for a ‘dead game’ somewhat positive, I’d say so Wombat if we're going to start balancing the game around whatever is the most popular thing for r/starcraft to bitch about then I don't know if we can call this game alive, or a zombie.
I mean it really depends on what makes it in or not, based on this initial spitball of ideas.
Do we see a sensible pruning or do we get something like the reworked cyclone which basically nobody really wanted?
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On March 08 2024 10:15 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 10:06 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 10:03 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:57 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:53 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:48 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:42 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:39 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:25 jinjin5000 wrote:
lmfao reddit diamond protoss balance whine brigade got what they wanted after months of whining despite it not being issue at pro level just because they had excuse to whine about mine having a "buff" on unburrow part.
That's fucking amazing. You'd think if they spent fraction of time whining to practicing, they would have been in masters long, long time ago. just a payback for the observer nerf I dunno if i like the radius nerf but the rest is completely fine imo as i said wms lead to some of the most unfun interactions (even if not a problem really at high levels), which is a very fine reason to do changes against that (same goes for other of those insta poof units like disruptors). Now reddit knows it will work and /r/starcraft will turn into battle.net forums like it has been for past few months for rest of eternity. I mean why shouldnt they change unfun interactions? Because they are neccessary for the balance? Sounds like a shit crux to rely on. I won't deny units like disruptor, widow mines, ect are terrible unit design and SC2 has way too much of instant lose aoe units/harass units, but touching a unit that only really affects pvt at low level and has much bigger implication for tvz just because diamond protoss redditors whined really hard for past few months is just sending wrong message. People pulling forward pro stats/"there was a BUFF to mines!!!" justification to rally their thinly-veiled agenda when there were much needed concerns elsewhere just proves to these guys that what they do are working. If they were going to touch these units, they should really touch a lot of them and revamp all at once instead of "community feedback". If you are going to touch these units, don't do it in way that justify these low level whiners pushing their own agenda. Only if those whiners spent fraction of time in the game instead of whining, they wouldn't have widow mine drop as concern anymore to them lol. I mean wms were still frutrating to pros as well (can listen to e.g. showtime on his stream occasionally mentioning it iirc), so the unfun part isnt only for lower levels tho it was obv not unbalanced on pro level. boy, if you are going to take those complaints on stream from pros as proof of unbalanced on pro level, IDK what to tell you lmfao. Frustrating is not equal to unbalanced and never did i say that. sc2 is full of these frustrating aoe esports units, but touching them just now when it posed not much of problem in pro PvT while it has bigger implication of TvZ just because protoss redditors whined enough is just poor man. Adjust mines/other unfun aoe units in a big patch all together at once instead of proving balance council will 100% be influenced by community brigading is terrible showing and only encourages repeat of what has been happening for months beforehand. I'm just sick of the whining on the subreddit that has been plaguing reddit for months now. It has never been this bad historically ever but moment redditors realize they have influence over balance like current one, it will just get worse. And it has been terrible for past few months. Can't wait for repeat forever now. I get it, its frustrating unfun unit. But all this proves is that those spam posting whine posts with obvious alt accounts/trying to justify it on recent buff or pro performance was just annoying to see as they are clearly pushing their own agenda to their own benefit lol.
I mean this is still a ptr (and yes i know how recent ptrs went), so if they take out the radius change i dont see the rest of the changes be an issue at higher levels (also harsetem vid on these changes i think said that the radius change shouldnt affect non worker interactions too much).
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On March 08 2024 10:20 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 10:15 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:06 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 10:03 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:57 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:53 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:48 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:42 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:39 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:25 jinjin5000 wrote:
lmfao reddit diamond protoss balance whine brigade got what they wanted after months of whining despite it not being issue at pro level just because they had excuse to whine about mine having a "buff" on unburrow part.
That's fucking amazing. You'd think if they spent fraction of time whining to practicing, they would have been in masters long, long time ago. just a payback for the observer nerf I dunno if i like the radius nerf but the rest is completely fine imo as i said wms lead to some of the most unfun interactions (even if not a problem really at high levels), which is a very fine reason to do changes against that (same goes for other of those insta poof units like disruptors). Now reddit knows it will work and /r/starcraft will turn into battle.net forums like it has been for past few months for rest of eternity. I mean why shouldnt they change unfun interactions? Because they are neccessary for the balance? Sounds like a shit crux to rely on. I won't deny units like disruptor, widow mines, ect are terrible unit design and SC2 has way too much of instant lose aoe units/harass units, but touching a unit that only really affects pvt at low level and has much bigger implication for tvz just because diamond protoss redditors whined really hard for past few months is just sending wrong message. People pulling forward pro stats/"there was a BUFF to mines!!!" justification to rally their thinly-veiled agenda when there were much needed concerns elsewhere just proves to these guys that what they do are working. If they were going to touch these units, they should really touch a lot of them and revamp all at once instead of "community feedback". If you are going to touch these units, don't do it in way that justify these low level whiners pushing their own agenda. Only if those whiners spent fraction of time in the game instead of whining, they wouldn't have widow mine drop as concern anymore to them lol. I mean wms were still frutrating to pros as well (can listen to e.g. showtime on his stream occasionally mentioning it iirc), so the unfun part isnt only for lower levels tho it was obv not unbalanced on pro level. boy, if you are going to take those complaints on stream from pros as proof of unbalanced on pro level, IDK what to tell you lmfao. Frustrating is not equal to unbalanced and never did i say that. sc2 is full of these frustrating aoe esports units, but touching them just now when it posed not much of problem in pro PvT while it has bigger implication of TvZ just because protoss redditors whined enough is just poor man. Adjust mines/other unfun aoe units in a big patch all together at once instead of proving balance council will 100% be influenced by community brigading is terrible showing and only encourages repeat of what has been happening for months beforehand. I'm just sick of the whining on the subreddit that has been plaguing reddit for months now. It has never been this bad historically ever but moment redditors realize they have influence over balance like current one, it will just get worse. And it has been terrible for past few months. Can't wait for repeat forever now. I get it, its frustrating unfun unit. But all this proves is that those spam posting whine posts with obvious alt accounts/trying to justify it on recent buff or pro performance was just annoying to see as they are clearly pushing their own agenda to their own benefit lol. Fair but as the pro scene is gradually winding down I mean there’s something to be said for making the game a bit more enjoyable at a casual level. The game’s been balanced based of a pro level of play for like forever
ideally you balance around both with more emphasis on pro level but being too swung by community brigading when most of them are not affected by said balance/dont even know implication of their whine nerfs have me doubting on listening to community at all.
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On March 08 2024 07:04 Nebuchad wrote:
Tbh I'm changing my mind, this patch seems pretty good. I had overlooked some aspects of it at first, Harstem's video helped me see things that I hadn't considered
i'd take anything he says with a grain of salt. he is too humble. the balance council needs a toss that is not afraid to whine. They are rare but necessary when the other two races arent afraid to QQ to get what they want.
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This patch is interesting. I doubt it goes far enough to assist Protoss compete on a level equal to Zerg and Terran. That said Classic and Stats both got out of their group (beating Dark and Bunny) in GSL. Hope? LOL as if.
Widow mines being hit so hard is strange, sure a small nerf was needed but this overkill.
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Please, if you know anyone on the balance team, inform them of a regression that needs fixing: There was a patch in the past where zerg eggs morphed from larva would no longer block hatcheries. This behavior was undone long ago and eggs are once again blocking new hatches from being built.
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On March 08 2024 10:03 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 09:57 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:53 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:48 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:42 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:39 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:25 jinjin5000 wrote:
lmfao reddit diamond protoss balance whine brigade got what they wanted after months of whining despite it not being issue at pro level just because they had excuse to whine about mine having a "buff" on unburrow part.
That's fucking amazing. You'd think if they spent fraction of time whining to practicing, they would have been in masters long, long time ago. just a payback for the observer nerf I dunno if i like the radius nerf but the rest is completely fine imo as i said wms lead to some of the most unfun interactions (even if not a problem really at high levels), which is a very fine reason to do changes against that (same goes for other of those insta poof units like disruptors). Now reddit knows it will work and /r/starcraft will turn into battle.net forums like it has been for past few months for rest of eternity. I mean why shouldnt they change unfun interactions? Because they are neccessary for the balance? Sounds like a shit crux to rely on. I won't deny units like disruptor, widow mines, ect are terrible unit design and SC2 has way too much of instant lose aoe units/harass units, but touching a unit that only really affects pvt at low level and has much bigger implication for tvz just because diamond protoss redditors whined really hard for past few months is just sending wrong message. People pulling forward pro stats/"there was a BUFF to mines!!!" justification to rally their thinly-veiled agenda when there were much needed concerns elsewhere just proves to these guys that what they do are working. If they were going to touch these units, they should really touch a lot of them and revamp all at once instead of "community feedback". If you are going to touch these units, don't do it in way that justify these low level whiners pushing their own agenda. Only if those whiners spent fraction of time in the game instead of whining, they wouldn't have widow mine drop as concern anymore to them lol. I mean wms were still frutrating to pros as well (can listen to e.g. showtime on his stream occasionally mentioning it iirc), so the unfun part isnt only for lower levels tho it was obv not unbalanced on pro level. boy, if you are going to take those complaints on stream from pros as proof of unbalanced on pro level, IDK what to tell you lmfao.
The unbalance at pro level comes from the ease to make a game-losing mistake as protoss. Having a situation where it's harder for you to make a game-losing mistake than it was before is obviously influencing balance at pro levels, I don't exactly understand why this is even a talking point.
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Northern Ireland25771 Posts
On March 08 2024 10:23 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 10:20 WombaT wrote:On March 08 2024 10:15 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:06 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 10:03 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:57 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:53 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:48 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:42 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:39 darklycid wrote:[quote] just a payback for the observer nerf I dunno if i like the radius nerf but the rest is completely fine imo as i said wms lead to some of the most unfun interactions (even if not a problem really at high levels), which is a very fine reason to do changes against that (same goes for other of those insta poof units like disruptors). Now reddit knows it will work and /r/starcraft will turn into battle.net forums like it has been for past few months for rest of eternity. I mean why shouldnt they change unfun interactions? Because they are neccessary for the balance? Sounds like a shit crux to rely on. I won't deny units like disruptor, widow mines, ect are terrible unit design and SC2 has way too much of instant lose aoe units/harass units, but touching a unit that only really affects pvt at low level and has much bigger implication for tvz just because diamond protoss redditors whined really hard for past few months is just sending wrong message. People pulling forward pro stats/"there was a BUFF to mines!!!" justification to rally their thinly-veiled agenda when there were much needed concerns elsewhere just proves to these guys that what they do are working. If they were going to touch these units, they should really touch a lot of them and revamp all at once instead of "community feedback". If you are going to touch these units, don't do it in way that justify these low level whiners pushing their own agenda. Only if those whiners spent fraction of time in the game instead of whining, they wouldn't have widow mine drop as concern anymore to them lol. I mean wms were still frutrating to pros as well (can listen to e.g. showtime on his stream occasionally mentioning it iirc), so the unfun part isnt only for lower levels tho it was obv not unbalanced on pro level. boy, if you are going to take those complaints on stream from pros as proof of unbalanced on pro level, IDK what to tell you lmfao. Frustrating is not equal to unbalanced and never did i say that. sc2 is full of these frustrating aoe esports units, but touching them just now when it posed not much of problem in pro PvT while it has bigger implication of TvZ just because protoss redditors whined enough is just poor man. Adjust mines/other unfun aoe units in a big patch all together at once instead of proving balance council will 100% be influenced by community brigading is terrible showing and only encourages repeat of what has been happening for months beforehand. I'm just sick of the whining on the subreddit that has been plaguing reddit for months now. It has never been this bad historically ever but moment redditors realize they have influence over balance like current one, it will just get worse. And it has been terrible for past few months. Can't wait for repeat forever now. I get it, its frustrating unfun unit. But all this proves is that those spam posting whine posts with obvious alt accounts/trying to justify it on recent buff or pro performance was just annoying to see as they are clearly pushing their own agenda to their own benefit lol. Fair but as the pro scene is gradually winding down I mean there’s something to be said for making the game a bit more enjoyable at a casual level. The game’s been balanced based of a pro level of play for like forever ideally you balance around both with more emphasis on pro level but being too swung by community brigading when most of them are not affected by said balance/dont even know implication of their whine nerfs have me doubting on listening to community at all.
I mean to a certain degree sure, equally how many of these changes proposed were things the Reddit community were screaming for?
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Canada8989 Posts
On March 08 2024 10:19 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 10:14 WombaT wrote:
Are these good? Fuck knows! Is the fact that such a slew of changes are even being considered for a ‘dead game’ somewhat positive, I’d say so Wombat if we're going to start balancing the game around whatever is the most popular thing for r/starcraft to bitch about then I don't know if we can call this game alive, or a zombie.
That's always how balance goes, in every game. If they change things everyone complains about they are just idiots pandering to haters, if they change stuff no one is talking about, they are just idiots ignoring the community. We've been playing that game for a decade and a half.
I for one am just happy they are trying new things balance-wise, it's pretty great to still see new patches and new maps and I'm hype to see how it tvp will play out.
I would love to have a clearer view of when Blizz plan to stop supporting patches though, just to make sure we can plan for it and not get stuck on a terrible patch.
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On March 08 2024 10:30 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 10:23 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:20 WombaT wrote:On March 08 2024 10:15 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:06 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 10:03 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:57 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:53 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:48 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:42 jinjin5000 wrote:
[quote]
Now reddit knows it will work and /r/starcraft will turn into battle.net forums like it has been for past few months for rest of eternity. I mean why shouldnt they change unfun interactions? Because they are neccessary for the balance? Sounds like a shit crux to rely on. I won't deny units like disruptor, widow mines, ect are terrible unit design and SC2 has way too much of instant lose aoe units/harass units, but touching a unit that only really affects pvt at low level and has much bigger implication for tvz just because diamond protoss redditors whined really hard for past few months is just sending wrong message. People pulling forward pro stats/"there was a BUFF to mines!!!" justification to rally their thinly-veiled agenda when there were much needed concerns elsewhere just proves to these guys that what they do are working. If they were going to touch these units, they should really touch a lot of them and revamp all at once instead of "community feedback". If you are going to touch these units, don't do it in way that justify these low level whiners pushing their own agenda. Only if those whiners spent fraction of time in the game instead of whining, they wouldn't have widow mine drop as concern anymore to them lol. I mean wms were still frutrating to pros as well (can listen to e.g. showtime on his stream occasionally mentioning it iirc), so the unfun part isnt only for lower levels tho it was obv not unbalanced on pro level. boy, if you are going to take those complaints on stream from pros as proof of unbalanced on pro level, IDK what to tell you lmfao. Frustrating is not equal to unbalanced and never did i say that. sc2 is full of these frustrating aoe esports units, but touching them just now when it posed not much of problem in pro PvT while it has bigger implication of TvZ just because protoss redditors whined enough is just poor man. Adjust mines/other unfun aoe units in a big patch all together at once instead of proving balance council will 100% be influenced by community brigading is terrible showing and only encourages repeat of what has been happening for months beforehand. I'm just sick of the whining on the subreddit that has been plaguing reddit for months now. It has never been this bad historically ever but moment redditors realize they have influence over balance like current one, it will just get worse. And it has been terrible for past few months. Can't wait for repeat forever now. I get it, its frustrating unfun unit. But all this proves is that those spam posting whine posts with obvious alt accounts/trying to justify it on recent buff or pro performance was just annoying to see as they are clearly pushing their own agenda to their own benefit lol. Fair but as the pro scene is gradually winding down I mean there’s something to be said for making the game a bit more enjoyable at a casual level. The game’s been balanced based of a pro level of play for like forever ideally you balance around both with more emphasis on pro level but being too swung by community brigading when most of them are not affected by said balance/dont even know implication of their whine nerfs have me doubting on listening to community at all. I mean to a certain degree sure, equally how many of these changes proposed were things the Reddit community were screaming for?
Any changes proposed that reddit community screamed for getting through is 1 more than it should ever be.
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Northern Ireland25771 Posts
On March 08 2024 10:31 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 10:30 WombaT wrote:On March 08 2024 10:23 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:20 WombaT wrote:On March 08 2024 10:15 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:06 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 10:03 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:57 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:53 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:48 darklycid wrote:
[quote]
I mean why shouldnt they change unfun interactions? Because they are neccessary for the balance? Sounds like a shit crux to rely on. I won't deny units like disruptor, widow mines, ect are terrible unit design and SC2 has way too much of instant lose aoe units/harass units, but touching a unit that only really affects pvt at low level and has much bigger implication for tvz just because diamond protoss redditors whined really hard for past few months is just sending wrong message. People pulling forward pro stats/"there was a BUFF to mines!!!" justification to rally their thinly-veiled agenda when there were much needed concerns elsewhere just proves to these guys that what they do are working. If they were going to touch these units, they should really touch a lot of them and revamp all at once instead of "community feedback". If you are going to touch these units, don't do it in way that justify these low level whiners pushing their own agenda. Only if those whiners spent fraction of time in the game instead of whining, they wouldn't have widow mine drop as concern anymore to them lol. I mean wms were still frutrating to pros as well (can listen to e.g. showtime on his stream occasionally mentioning it iirc), so the unfun part isnt only for lower levels tho it was obv not unbalanced on pro level. boy, if you are going to take those complaints on stream from pros as proof of unbalanced on pro level, IDK what to tell you lmfao. Frustrating is not equal to unbalanced and never did i say that. sc2 is full of these frustrating aoe esports units, but touching them just now when it posed not much of problem in pro PvT while it has bigger implication of TvZ just because protoss redditors whined enough is just poor man. Adjust mines/other unfun aoe units in a big patch all together at once instead of proving balance council will 100% be influenced by community brigading is terrible showing and only encourages repeat of what has been happening for months beforehand. I'm just sick of the whining on the subreddit that has been plaguing reddit for months now. It has never been this bad historically ever but moment redditors realize they have influence over balance like current one, it will just get worse. And it has been terrible for past few months. Can't wait for repeat forever now. I get it, its frustrating unfun unit. But all this proves is that those spam posting whine posts with obvious alt accounts/trying to justify it on recent buff or pro performance was just annoying to see as they are clearly pushing their own agenda to their own benefit lol. Fair but as the pro scene is gradually winding down I mean there’s something to be said for making the game a bit more enjoyable at a casual level. The game’s been balanced based of a pro level of play for like forever ideally you balance around both with more emphasis on pro level but being too swung by community brigading when most of them are not affected by said balance/dont even know implication of their whine nerfs have me doubting on listening to community at all. I mean to a certain degree sure, equally how many of these changes proposed were things the Reddit community were screaming for? Any changes proposed that reddit community screamed for getting through is 1 more than it should ever be.
What ones?
TL is slightly less balance whiny than Reddit, the latter I don’t really frequent that often.
Basically none of these proposed changes strike me as things people were vociferously advocating for.
So what are these changes that Reddit whining have apparently pushed to the PTR testing level?
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On March 08 2024 10:35 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 10:31 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:30 WombaT wrote:On March 08 2024 10:23 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:20 WombaT wrote:On March 08 2024 10:15 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:06 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 10:03 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:57 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:53 jinjin5000 wrote:
[quote]
I won't deny units like disruptor, widow mines, ect are terrible unit design and SC2 has way too much of instant lose aoe units/harass units, but touching a unit that only really affects pvt at low level and has much bigger implication for tvz just because diamond protoss redditors whined really hard for past few months is just sending wrong message.
People pulling forward pro stats/"there was a BUFF to mines!!!" justification to rally their thinly-veiled agenda when there were much needed concerns elsewhere just proves to these guys that what they do are working. If they were going to touch these units, they should really touch a lot of them and revamp all at once instead of "community feedback". If you are going to touch these units, don't do it in way that justify these low level whiners pushing their own agenda.
Only if those whiners spent fraction of time in the game instead of whining, they wouldn't have widow mine drop as concern anymore to them lol. I mean wms were still frutrating to pros as well (can listen to e.g. showtime on his stream occasionally mentioning it iirc), so the unfun part isnt only for lower levels tho it was obv not unbalanced on pro level. boy, if you are going to take those complaints on stream from pros as proof of unbalanced on pro level, IDK what to tell you lmfao. Frustrating is not equal to unbalanced and never did i say that. sc2 is full of these frustrating aoe esports units, but touching them just now when it posed not much of problem in pro PvT while it has bigger implication of TvZ just because protoss redditors whined enough is just poor man. Adjust mines/other unfun aoe units in a big patch all together at once instead of proving balance council will 100% be influenced by community brigading is terrible showing and only encourages repeat of what has been happening for months beforehand. I'm just sick of the whining on the subreddit that has been plaguing reddit for months now. It has never been this bad historically ever but moment redditors realize they have influence over balance like current one, it will just get worse. And it has been terrible for past few months. Can't wait for repeat forever now. I get it, its frustrating unfun unit. But all this proves is that those spam posting whine posts with obvious alt accounts/trying to justify it on recent buff or pro performance was just annoying to see as they are clearly pushing their own agenda to their own benefit lol. Fair but as the pro scene is gradually winding down I mean there’s something to be said for making the game a bit more enjoyable at a casual level. The game’s been balanced based of a pro level of play for like forever ideally you balance around both with more emphasis on pro level but being too swung by community brigading when most of them are not affected by said balance/dont even know implication of their whine nerfs have me doubting on listening to community at all. I mean to a certain degree sure, equally how many of these changes proposed were things the Reddit community were screaming for? Any changes proposed that reddit community screamed for getting through is 1 more than it should ever be. What ones? TL is slightly less balance whiny than Reddit, the latter I don’t really frequent that often. Basically none of these proposed changes strike me as things people were vociferously advocating for. So what are these changes that Reddit whining have apparently pushed to the PTR testing level?
past like 5 months of reddit was just pure whining about widow mines and notable members of diamond protoss community trying really hard to link it to pro games/any means to justify it, with stemmed from "why did widow mines get buffed?!" last patch.
It was pretty clear they took the opportunity to whine and ran with it despite the change on mine having 0 effect on what was killing them inf irst place. and all this did was prove that whining on reddit works.
It was daily half of frontpage for months. Just widow mine posts after widow mine posts.
if it's going to change, change it in a bigger patch that deals with all these concerns without specifically advocating the one community whine posts clump. Address multiple at once without acknowledging a particular event. All this did was give them approval and set a precedence
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On March 08 2024 10:29 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 10:03 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:57 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:53 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:48 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:42 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:39 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:25 jinjin5000 wrote:
lmfao reddit diamond protoss balance whine brigade got what they wanted after months of whining despite it not being issue at pro level just because they had excuse to whine about mine having a "buff" on unburrow part.
That's fucking amazing. You'd think if they spent fraction of time whining to practicing, they would have been in masters long, long time ago. just a payback for the observer nerf I dunno if i like the radius nerf but the rest is completely fine imo as i said wms lead to some of the most unfun interactions (even if not a problem really at high levels), which is a very fine reason to do changes against that (same goes for other of those insta poof units like disruptors). Now reddit knows it will work and /r/starcraft will turn into battle.net forums like it has been for past few months for rest of eternity. I mean why shouldnt they change unfun interactions? Because they are neccessary for the balance? Sounds like a shit crux to rely on. I won't deny units like disruptor, widow mines, ect are terrible unit design and SC2 has way too much of instant lose aoe units/harass units, but touching a unit that only really affects pvt at low level and has much bigger implication for tvz just because diamond protoss redditors whined really hard for past few months is just sending wrong message. People pulling forward pro stats/"there was a BUFF to mines!!!" justification to rally their thinly-veiled agenda when there were much needed concerns elsewhere just proves to these guys that what they do are working. If they were going to touch these units, they should really touch a lot of them and revamp all at once instead of "community feedback". If you are going to touch these units, don't do it in way that justify these low level whiners pushing their own agenda. Only if those whiners spent fraction of time in the game instead of whining, they wouldn't have widow mine drop as concern anymore to them lol. I mean wms were still frutrating to pros as well (can listen to e.g. showtime on his stream occasionally mentioning it iirc), so the unfun part isnt only for lower levels tho it was obv not unbalanced on pro level. boy, if you are going to take those complaints on stream from pros as proof of unbalanced on pro level, IDK what to tell you lmfao. The unbalance at pro level comes from the ease to make a game-losing mistake as protoss. Having a situation where it's harder for you to make a game-losing mistake than it was before is obviously influencing balance at pro levels, I don't exactly understand why this is even a talking point.
Yes you do, you just don't care. This is a MUCH bigger change for TvZ than it is for TvP.
In TvP Widow Mines are pretty much ONLY used for Widow Mine drops, they're hardly used for anything else. Nerfing them has a very minor impact on the overall winrate of TvP because Terrans will just use other openers.
Widow Mines in TvZ are a HUGE part of the balance of the match up. Bio vs Zerg heavily uses Widow Mines to counter Banelings. This change will have a MUCH more substantial impact in that match up than it will in TvP.
We're giving Terran a significant nerf vs Zerg, for a very minor trade off in TvP. There are better changes that can be made to address TvP in Protoss' favor, but the balance council is doing THIS one just because of reddit's whining. They're going with what the mob thinks is popular rather than what's an actually good and impactful change for their stated goal.
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Northern Ireland25771 Posts
On March 08 2024 10:37 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 10:35 WombaT wrote:On March 08 2024 10:31 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:30 WombaT wrote:On March 08 2024 10:23 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:20 WombaT wrote:On March 08 2024 10:15 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:06 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 10:03 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:57 darklycid wrote:
[quote]
I mean wms were still frutrating to pros as well (can listen to e.g. showtime on his stream occasionally mentioning it iirc), so the unfun part isnt only for lower levels tho it was obv not unbalanced on pro level. boy, if you are going to take those complaints on stream from pros as proof of unbalanced on pro level, IDK what to tell you lmfao. Frustrating is not equal to unbalanced and never did i say that. sc2 is full of these frustrating aoe esports units, but touching them just now when it posed not much of problem in pro PvT while it has bigger implication of TvZ just because protoss redditors whined enough is just poor man. Adjust mines/other unfun aoe units in a big patch all together at once instead of proving balance council will 100% be influenced by community brigading is terrible showing and only encourages repeat of what has been happening for months beforehand. I'm just sick of the whining on the subreddit that has been plaguing reddit for months now. It has never been this bad historically ever but moment redditors realize they have influence over balance like current one, it will just get worse. And it has been terrible for past few months. Can't wait for repeat forever now. I get it, its frustrating unfun unit. But all this proves is that those spam posting whine posts with obvious alt accounts/trying to justify it on recent buff or pro performance was just annoying to see as they are clearly pushing their own agenda to their own benefit lol. Fair but as the pro scene is gradually winding down I mean there’s something to be said for making the game a bit more enjoyable at a casual level. The game’s been balanced based of a pro level of play for like forever ideally you balance around both with more emphasis on pro level but being too swung by community brigading when most of them are not affected by said balance/dont even know implication of their whine nerfs have me doubting on listening to community at all. I mean to a certain degree sure, equally how many of these changes proposed were things the Reddit community were screaming for? Any changes proposed that reddit community screamed for getting through is 1 more than it should ever be. What ones? TL is slightly less balance whiny than Reddit, the latter I don’t really frequent that often. Basically none of these proposed changes strike me as things people were vociferously advocating for. So what are these changes that Reddit whining have apparently pushed to the PTR testing level? past like 5 months of reddit was just pure whining about widow mines and notable members of diamond protoss community trying really hard to link it to pro games/any means to justify it, with stemmed from "why did widow mines get buffed?!" last patch. It was pretty clear they took the opportunity to whine and ran with it despite the change on mine having 0 effect on what was killing them inf irst place. and all this did was prove that whining on reddit works. It was daily half of frontpage for months. Just widow mine posts after widow mine posts. if it's going to change, change it in a bigger patch that deals with all these concerns without specifically advocating the one community whine posts clump. Address multiple at once without acknowledging a particular event. All this did was give them approval and set a precedence
Isn’t that what they’re potentially doing here?
Tbh I don’t personally like it, I didn’t like the last couple of patches either where they changed like 8 things at once in a big patch rather than gradually doing targeted changes but more frequently. How does one assess the effectiveness of one change if there’s a bunch running alongside it etc
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EPT
