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On March 08 2024 10:47 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 10:37 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:35 WombaT wrote:On March 08 2024 10:31 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:30 WombaT wrote:On March 08 2024 10:23 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:20 WombaT wrote:On March 08 2024 10:15 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:06 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 10:03 jinjin5000 wrote:
[quote]
boy, if you are going to take those complaints on stream from pros as proof of unbalanced on pro level, IDK what to tell you lmfao. Frustrating is not equal to unbalanced and never did i say that. sc2 is full of these frustrating aoe esports units, but touching them just now when it posed not much of problem in pro PvT while it has bigger implication of TvZ just because protoss redditors whined enough is just poor man. Adjust mines/other unfun aoe units in a big patch all together at once instead of proving balance council will 100% be influenced by community brigading is terrible showing and only encourages repeat of what has been happening for months beforehand. I'm just sick of the whining on the subreddit that has been plaguing reddit for months now. It has never been this bad historically ever but moment redditors realize they have influence over balance like current one, it will just get worse. And it has been terrible for past few months. Can't wait for repeat forever now. I get it, its frustrating unfun unit. But all this proves is that those spam posting whine posts with obvious alt accounts/trying to justify it on recent buff or pro performance was just annoying to see as they are clearly pushing their own agenda to their own benefit lol. Fair but as the pro scene is gradually winding down I mean there’s something to be said for making the game a bit more enjoyable at a casual level. The game’s been balanced based of a pro level of play for like forever ideally you balance around both with more emphasis on pro level but being too swung by community brigading when most of them are not affected by said balance/dont even know implication of their whine nerfs have me doubting on listening to community at all. I mean to a certain degree sure, equally how many of these changes proposed were things the Reddit community were screaming for? Any changes proposed that reddit community screamed for getting through is 1 more than it should ever be. What ones? TL is slightly less balance whiny than Reddit, the latter I don’t really frequent that often. Basically none of these proposed changes strike me as things people were vociferously advocating for. So what are these changes that Reddit whining have apparently pushed to the PTR testing level? past like 5 months of reddit was just pure whining about widow mines and notable members of diamond protoss community trying really hard to link it to pro games/any means to justify it, with stemmed from "why did widow mines get buffed?!" last patch. It was pretty clear they took the opportunity to whine and ran with it despite the change on mine having 0 effect on what was killing them inf irst place. and all this did was prove that whining on reddit works. It was daily half of frontpage for months. Just widow mine posts after widow mine posts. if it's going to change, change it in a bigger patch that deals with all these concerns without specifically advocating the one community whine posts clump. Address multiple at once without acknowledging a particular event. All this did was give them approval and set a precedence Isn’t that what they’re potentially doing here? Tbh I don’t personally like it, I didn’t like the last couple of patches either where they changed like 8 things at once in a big patch rather than gradually doing targeted changes but more frequently. How does one assess the effectiveness of one change if there’s a bunch running alongside it etc
I'm fine with them touching unit itself, but not fine with the sole change to be targeted for widow mine clearly because reddit whined it. It's just rewarding that. If they were going ot change it, they should have addressed multiple unit of similar fashion and avoid acklowedging the direct influence balance whining on reddit has.
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they should make balance changes regional.
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On March 08 2024 10:45 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 10:29 Nebuchad wrote:On March 08 2024 10:03 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:57 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:53 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:48 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:42 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:39 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:25 jinjin5000 wrote:
lmfao reddit diamond protoss balance whine brigade got what they wanted after months of whining despite it not being issue at pro level just because they had excuse to whine about mine having a "buff" on unburrow part.
That's fucking amazing. You'd think if they spent fraction of time whining to practicing, they would have been in masters long, long time ago. just a payback for the observer nerf  I dunno if i like the radius nerf but the rest is completely fine imo as i said wms lead to some of the most unfun interactions (even if not a problem really at high levels), which is a very fine reason to do changes against that (same goes for other of those insta poof units like disruptors). Now reddit knows it will work and /r/starcraft will turn into battle.net forums like it has been for past few months for rest of eternity. I mean why shouldnt they change unfun interactions? Because they are neccessary for the balance? Sounds like a shit crux to rely on. I won't deny units like disruptor, widow mines, ect are terrible unit design and SC2 has way too much of instant lose aoe units/harass units, but touching a unit that only really affects pvt at low level and has much bigger implication for tvz just because diamond protoss redditors whined really hard for past few months is just sending wrong message. People pulling forward pro stats/"there was a BUFF to mines!!!" justification to rally their thinly-veiled agenda when there were much needed concerns elsewhere just proves to these guys that what they do are working. If they were going to touch these units, they should really touch a lot of them and revamp all at once instead of "community feedback". If you are going to touch these units, don't do it in way that justify these low level whiners pushing their own agenda. Only if those whiners spent fraction of time in the game instead of whining, they wouldn't have widow mine drop as concern anymore to them lol. I mean wms were still frutrating to pros as well (can listen to e.g. showtime on his stream occasionally mentioning it iirc), so the unfun part isnt only for lower levels tho it was obv not unbalanced on pro level. boy, if you are going to take those complaints on stream from pros as proof of unbalanced on pro level, IDK what to tell you lmfao. The unbalance at pro level comes from the ease to make a game-losing mistake as protoss. Having a situation where it's harder for you to make a game-losing mistake than it was before is obviously influencing balance at pro levels, I don't exactly understand why this is even a talking point. Yes you do, you just don't care. This is a MUCH bigger change for TvZ than it is for TvP. In TvP Widow Mines are pretty much ONLY used for Widow Mine drops, they're hardly used for anything else. Nerfing them has a very minor impact on the overall winrate of TvP because Terrans will just use other openers. Widow Mines in TvZ are a HUGE part of the balance of the match up. Bio vs Zerg heavily uses Widow Mines to counter Banelings. This change will have a MUCH more substantial impact in that match up than it will in TvP. We're giving Terran a significant nerf vs Zerg, for a very minor trade off in TvP. There are better changes that can be made to address TvP in Protoss' favor, but the balance council is doing THIS one just because of reddit's whining. They're going with what the mob thinks is popular rather than what's an actually good and impactful change for their stated goal.
Could you highlight the part of my post that talks about TvZ?
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On March 08 2024 09:53 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 09:48 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:42 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:39 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:25 jinjin5000 wrote:
lmfao reddit diamond protoss balance whine brigade got what they wanted after months of whining despite it not being issue at pro level just because they had excuse to whine about mine having a "buff" on unburrow part.
That's fucking amazing. You'd think if they spent fraction of time whining to practicing, they would have been in masters long, long time ago. just a payback for the observer nerf I dunno if i like the radius nerf but the rest is completely fine imo as i said wms lead to some of the most unfun interactions (even if not a problem really at high levels), which is a very fine reason to do changes against that (same goes for other of those insta poof units like disruptors). Now reddit knows it will work and /r/starcraft will turn into battle.net forums like it has been for past few months for rest of eternity. I mean why shouldnt they change unfun interactions? Because they are neccessary for the balance? Sounds like a shit crux to rely on. I won't deny units like disruptor, widow mines, ect are terrible unit design and SC2 has way too much of instant lose aoe units/harass units, but touching a unit that only really affects pvt at low level and has much bigger implication for tvz just because diamond protoss redditors whined really hard for past few months is just sending wrong message. People pulling forward pro stats/"there was a BUFF to mines!!!" justification to rally their thinly-veiled agenda when there were much needed concerns elsewhere just proves to these guys that what they do are working. If they were going to touch these units, they should really touch a lot of them and revamp all at once instead of "community feedback". If you are going to touch these units, don't do it in way that justify these low level whiners pushing their own agenda. Only if those whiners spent fraction of time in the game instead of whining, they wouldn't have widow mine drop as concern anymore to them lol.
Sounds like terrans whining about Zergs after every tournaments
Terran should take your advice and spent a fraction of the time practicing instead of whining about burrow infestors. Terran is already the strongest race for years now
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On March 08 2024 10:45 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 10:29 Nebuchad wrote:On March 08 2024 10:03 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:57 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:53 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:48 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:42 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:39 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:25 jinjin5000 wrote:
lmfao reddit diamond protoss balance whine brigade got what they wanted after months of whining despite it not being issue at pro level just because they had excuse to whine about mine having a "buff" on unburrow part.
That's fucking amazing. You'd think if they spent fraction of time whining to practicing, they would have been in masters long, long time ago. just a payback for the observer nerf I dunno if i like the radius nerf but the rest is completely fine imo as i said wms lead to some of the most unfun interactions (even if not a problem really at high levels), which is a very fine reason to do changes against that (same goes for other of those insta poof units like disruptors). Now reddit knows it will work and /r/starcraft will turn into battle.net forums like it has been for past few months for rest of eternity. I mean why shouldnt they change unfun interactions? Because they are neccessary for the balance? Sounds like a shit crux to rely on. I won't deny units like disruptor, widow mines, ect are terrible unit design and SC2 has way too much of instant lose aoe units/harass units, but touching a unit that only really affects pvt at low level and has much bigger implication for tvz just because diamond protoss redditors whined really hard for past few months is just sending wrong message. People pulling forward pro stats/"there was a BUFF to mines!!!" justification to rally their thinly-veiled agenda when there were much needed concerns elsewhere just proves to these guys that what they do are working. If they were going to touch these units, they should really touch a lot of them and revamp all at once instead of "community feedback". If you are going to touch these units, don't do it in way that justify these low level whiners pushing their own agenda. Only if those whiners spent fraction of time in the game instead of whining, they wouldn't have widow mine drop as concern anymore to them lol. I mean wms were still frutrating to pros as well (can listen to e.g. showtime on his stream occasionally mentioning it iirc), so the unfun part isnt only for lower levels tho it was obv not unbalanced on pro level. boy, if you are going to take those complaints on stream from pros as proof of unbalanced on pro level, IDK what to tell you lmfao. The unbalance at pro level comes from the ease to make a game-losing mistake as protoss. Having a situation where it's harder for you to make a game-losing mistake than it was before is obviously influencing balance at pro levels, I don't exactly understand why this is even a talking point. Yes you do, you just don't care. This is a MUCH bigger change for TvZ than it is for TvP. In TvP Widow Mines are pretty much ONLY used for Widow Mine drops, they're hardly used for anything else. Nerfing them has a very minor impact on the overall winrate of TvP because Terrans will just use other openers. Widow Mines in TvZ are a HUGE part of the balance of the match up. Bio vs Zerg heavily uses Widow Mines to counter Banelings. This change will have a MUCH more substantial impact in that match up than it will in TvP. We're giving Terran a significant nerf vs Zerg, for a very minor trade off in TvP. There are better changes that can be made to address TvP in Protoss' favor, but the balance council is doing THIS one just because of reddit's whining. They're going with what the mob thinks is popular rather than what's an actually good and impactful change for their stated goal.
Not sure what games you are watching. Widow mines are in more than 50% of tvp games. (Not used for mine drops)
How many times have we saw Protoss struggle to clear a mine field because their obs died. Literally cannot advance or counteract until they clear it
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Good patch. I think the general direction is just right.
Here is Harstem's view of it, and I largely agree. It's also amusing that Harstem directly argues against some TL.net's favorite opinions, such as that TvZ is zerg-favored and that building ravens in TvZ is out of the question for principled reasons.
On March 08 2024 10:55 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 10:47 WombaT wrote:On March 08 2024 10:37 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:35 WombaT wrote:On March 08 2024 10:31 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:30 WombaT wrote:On March 08 2024 10:23 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:20 WombaT wrote:On March 08 2024 10:15 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:06 darklycid wrote:
[quote]
Frustrating is not equal to unbalanced and never did i say that. sc2 is full of these frustrating aoe esports units, but touching them just now when it posed not much of problem in pro PvT while it has bigger implication of TvZ just because protoss redditors whined enough is just poor man. Adjust mines/other unfun aoe units in a big patch all together at once instead of proving balance council will 100% be influenced by community brigading is terrible showing and only encourages repeat of what has been happening for months beforehand. I'm just sick of the whining on the subreddit that has been plaguing reddit for months now. It has never been this bad historically ever but moment redditors realize they have influence over balance like current one, it will just get worse. And it has been terrible for past few months. Can't wait for repeat forever now. I get it, its frustrating unfun unit. But all this proves is that those spam posting whine posts with obvious alt accounts/trying to justify it on recent buff or pro performance was just annoying to see as they are clearly pushing their own agenda to their own benefit lol. Fair but as the pro scene is gradually winding down I mean there’s something to be said for making the game a bit more enjoyable at a casual level. The game’s been balanced based of a pro level of play for like forever ideally you balance around both with more emphasis on pro level but being too swung by community brigading when most of them are not affected by said balance/dont even know implication of their whine nerfs have me doubting on listening to community at all. I mean to a certain degree sure, equally how many of these changes proposed were things the Reddit community were screaming for? Any changes proposed that reddit community screamed for getting through is 1 more than it should ever be. What ones? TL is slightly less balance whiny than Reddit, the latter I don’t really frequent that often. Basically none of these proposed changes strike me as things people were vociferously advocating for. So what are these changes that Reddit whining have apparently pushed to the PTR testing level? past like 5 months of reddit was just pure whining about widow mines and notable members of diamond protoss community trying really hard to link it to pro games/any means to justify it, with stemmed from "why did widow mines get buffed?!" last patch. It was pretty clear they took the opportunity to whine and ran with it despite the change on mine having 0 effect on what was killing them inf irst place. and all this did was prove that whining on reddit works. It was daily half of frontpage for months. Just widow mine posts after widow mine posts. if it's going to change, change it in a bigger patch that deals with all these concerns without specifically advocating the one community whine posts clump. Address multiple at once without acknowledging a particular event. All this did was give them approval and set a precedence Isn’t that what they’re potentially doing here? Tbh I don’t personally like it, I didn’t like the last couple of patches either where they changed like 8 things at once in a big patch rather than gradually doing targeted changes but more frequently. How does one assess the effectiveness of one change if there’s a bunch running alongside it etc I'm fine with them touching unit itself, but not fine with the sole change to be targeted for widow mine clearly because reddit whined it. It's just rewarding that. If they were going ot change it, they should have addressed multiple unit of similar fashion and avoid acklowedging the direct influence balance whining on reddit has.
If you dislike nerfs being whined into existence, why don't you mention the infestor nerf in the same breath? The past weeks have seen a comical amount of whining about the infestor here on TL (but, notably, not on Reddit), although it is essentially only a single player in the world – the best player in the world – who can use them to their full potential.
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On March 08 2024 11:16 Antithesis wrote:Good patch. I think the general direction is just right. Here is Harstem's view of it, and I largely agree. It's also amusing that Harstem directly argues against some TL.net's favorite opinions, such as that TvZ is zerg-favored and that building ravens in TvZ is out of the question for principled reasons. Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 10:55 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:47 WombaT wrote:On March 08 2024 10:37 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:35 WombaT wrote:On March 08 2024 10:31 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:30 WombaT wrote:On March 08 2024 10:23 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:20 WombaT wrote:On March 08 2024 10:15 jinjin5000 wrote:
[quote]
sc2 is full of these frustrating aoe esports units, but touching them just now when it posed not much of problem in pro PvT while it has bigger implication of TvZ just because protoss redditors whined enough is just poor man.
Adjust mines/other unfun aoe units in a big patch all together at once instead of proving balance council will 100% be influenced by community brigading is terrible showing and only encourages repeat of what has been happening for months beforehand. I'm just sick of the whining on the subreddit that has been plaguing reddit for months now. It has never been this bad historically ever but moment redditors realize they have influence over balance like current one, it will just get worse. And it has been terrible for past few months. Can't wait for repeat forever now.
I get it, its frustrating unfun unit. But all this proves is that those spam posting whine posts with obvious alt accounts/trying to justify it on recent buff or pro performance was just annoying to see as they are clearly pushing their own agenda to their own benefit lol. Fair but as the pro scene is gradually winding down I mean there’s something to be said for making the game a bit more enjoyable at a casual level. The game’s been balanced based of a pro level of play for like forever ideally you balance around both with more emphasis on pro level but being too swung by community brigading when most of them are not affected by said balance/dont even know implication of their whine nerfs have me doubting on listening to community at all. I mean to a certain degree sure, equally how many of these changes proposed were things the Reddit community were screaming for? Any changes proposed that reddit community screamed for getting through is 1 more than it should ever be. What ones? TL is slightly less balance whiny than Reddit, the latter I don’t really frequent that often. Basically none of these proposed changes strike me as things people were vociferously advocating for. So what are these changes that Reddit whining have apparently pushed to the PTR testing level? past like 5 months of reddit was just pure whining about widow mines and notable members of diamond protoss community trying really hard to link it to pro games/any means to justify it, with stemmed from "why did widow mines get buffed?!" last patch. It was pretty clear they took the opportunity to whine and ran with it despite the change on mine having 0 effect on what was killing them inf irst place. and all this did was prove that whining on reddit works. It was daily half of frontpage for months. Just widow mine posts after widow mine posts. if it's going to change, change it in a bigger patch that deals with all these concerns without specifically advocating the one community whine posts clump. Address multiple at once without acknowledging a particular event. All this did was give them approval and set a precedence Isn’t that what they’re potentially doing here? Tbh I don’t personally like it, I didn’t like the last couple of patches either where they changed like 8 things at once in a big patch rather than gradually doing targeted changes but more frequently. How does one assess the effectiveness of one change if there’s a bunch running alongside it etc I'm fine with them touching unit itself, but not fine with the sole change to be targeted for widow mine clearly because reddit whined it. It's just rewarding that. If they were going ot change it, they should have addressed multiple unit of similar fashion and avoid acklowedging the direct influence balance whining on reddit has. If you dislike nerfs being whined into existence, why don't you mention the infestor nerf in the same breath? The past weeks have seen a comical amount of whining about the infestor here on TL (but, notably, not on Reddit), although it is essentially only a single player in the world – the best player in the world – who can use them to their full potential.
It also took like five minutes of whining for terrans to get what they wanted, while protoss has to wait years, but let's not pretend that everyone isn't aware of that.
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On March 08 2024 11:03 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 10:45 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:29 Nebuchad wrote:On March 08 2024 10:03 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:57 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:53 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:48 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:42 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:39 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:25 jinjin5000 wrote:
lmfao reddit diamond protoss balance whine brigade got what they wanted after months of whining despite it not being issue at pro level just because they had excuse to whine about mine having a "buff" on unburrow part.
That's fucking amazing. You'd think if they spent fraction of time whining to practicing, they would have been in masters long, long time ago. just a payback for the observer nerf I dunno if i like the radius nerf but the rest is completely fine imo as i said wms lead to some of the most unfun interactions (even if not a problem really at high levels), which is a very fine reason to do changes against that (same goes for other of those insta poof units like disruptors). Now reddit knows it will work and /r/starcraft will turn into battle.net forums like it has been for past few months for rest of eternity. I mean why shouldnt they change unfun interactions? Because they are neccessary for the balance? Sounds like a shit crux to rely on. I won't deny units like disruptor, widow mines, ect are terrible unit design and SC2 has way too much of instant lose aoe units/harass units, but touching a unit that only really affects pvt at low level and has much bigger implication for tvz just because diamond protoss redditors whined really hard for past few months is just sending wrong message. People pulling forward pro stats/"there was a BUFF to mines!!!" justification to rally their thinly-veiled agenda when there were much needed concerns elsewhere just proves to these guys that what they do are working. If they were going to touch these units, they should really touch a lot of them and revamp all at once instead of "community feedback". If you are going to touch these units, don't do it in way that justify these low level whiners pushing their own agenda. Only if those whiners spent fraction of time in the game instead of whining, they wouldn't have widow mine drop as concern anymore to them lol. I mean wms were still frutrating to pros as well (can listen to e.g. showtime on his stream occasionally mentioning it iirc), so the unfun part isnt only for lower levels tho it was obv not unbalanced on pro level. boy, if you are going to take those complaints on stream from pros as proof of unbalanced on pro level, IDK what to tell you lmfao. The unbalance at pro level comes from the ease to make a game-losing mistake as protoss. Having a situation where it's harder for you to make a game-losing mistake than it was before is obviously influencing balance at pro levels, I don't exactly understand why this is even a talking point. Yes you do, you just don't care. This is a MUCH bigger change for TvZ than it is for TvP. In TvP Widow Mines are pretty much ONLY used for Widow Mine drops, they're hardly used for anything else. Nerfing them has a very minor impact on the overall winrate of TvP because Terrans will just use other openers. Widow Mines in TvZ are a HUGE part of the balance of the match up. Bio vs Zerg heavily uses Widow Mines to counter Banelings. This change will have a MUCH more substantial impact in that match up than it will in TvP. We're giving Terran a significant nerf vs Zerg, for a very minor trade off in TvP. There are better changes that can be made to address TvP in Protoss' favor, but the balance council is doing THIS one just because of reddit's whining. They're going with what the mob thinks is popular rather than what's an actually good and impactful change for their stated goal. Could you highlight the part of my post that talks about TvZ?
The part where you don't care.
You say you don't see what the issue is. The issue is that TvP is not the only match up being affected by this patch. This patch does more to impact TvZ than TvP. You don't care because you don't care about anything that isn't explicitly related to Protoss.
That's why it's a bad patch. It doesn't accomplish its stated goal, and goes against what the Balance Council said was their assessment of the other match ups.
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On March 08 2024 11:22 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 11:03 Nebuchad wrote:On March 08 2024 10:45 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:29 Nebuchad wrote:On March 08 2024 10:03 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:57 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:53 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:48 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:42 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:39 darklycid wrote:[quote] just a payback for the observer nerf I dunno if i like the radius nerf but the rest is completely fine imo as i said wms lead to some of the most unfun interactions (even if not a problem really at high levels), which is a very fine reason to do changes against that (same goes for other of those insta poof units like disruptors). Now reddit knows it will work and /r/starcraft will turn into battle.net forums like it has been for past few months for rest of eternity. I mean why shouldnt they change unfun interactions? Because they are neccessary for the balance? Sounds like a shit crux to rely on. I won't deny units like disruptor, widow mines, ect are terrible unit design and SC2 has way too much of instant lose aoe units/harass units, but touching a unit that only really affects pvt at low level and has much bigger implication for tvz just because diamond protoss redditors whined really hard for past few months is just sending wrong message. People pulling forward pro stats/"there was a BUFF to mines!!!" justification to rally their thinly-veiled agenda when there were much needed concerns elsewhere just proves to these guys that what they do are working. If they were going to touch these units, they should really touch a lot of them and revamp all at once instead of "community feedback". If you are going to touch these units, don't do it in way that justify these low level whiners pushing their own agenda. Only if those whiners spent fraction of time in the game instead of whining, they wouldn't have widow mine drop as concern anymore to them lol. I mean wms were still frutrating to pros as well (can listen to e.g. showtime on his stream occasionally mentioning it iirc), so the unfun part isnt only for lower levels tho it was obv not unbalanced on pro level. boy, if you are going to take those complaints on stream from pros as proof of unbalanced on pro level, IDK what to tell you lmfao. The unbalance at pro level comes from the ease to make a game-losing mistake as protoss. Having a situation where it's harder for you to make a game-losing mistake than it was before is obviously influencing balance at pro levels, I don't exactly understand why this is even a talking point. Yes you do, you just don't care. This is a MUCH bigger change for TvZ than it is for TvP. In TvP Widow Mines are pretty much ONLY used for Widow Mine drops, they're hardly used for anything else. Nerfing them has a very minor impact on the overall winrate of TvP because Terrans will just use other openers. Widow Mines in TvZ are a HUGE part of the balance of the match up. Bio vs Zerg heavily uses Widow Mines to counter Banelings. This change will have a MUCH more substantial impact in that match up than it will in TvP. We're giving Terran a significant nerf vs Zerg, for a very minor trade off in TvP. There are better changes that can be made to address TvP in Protoss' favor, but the balance council is doing THIS one just because of reddit's whining. They're going with what the mob thinks is popular rather than what's an actually good and impactful change for their stated goal. Could you highlight the part of my post that talks about TvZ? The part where you don't care. You say you don't see what the issue is. The issue is that TvP is not the only match up being affected by this patch. This patch does more to impact TvZ than TvP. You don't care because you don't care about anything that isn't explicitly related to Protoss. That's why it's a bad patch. It doesn't accomplish its stated goal, and goes against what the Balance Council said was their assessment of the other match ups.
I'm answering a conversation where someone made the claim that it won't change PvT at pro level (no mention of TvZ) with the counterclaim that it obviously will (no mention of TvZ). When you want to talk about something and people are talking about something else, it's okay to not answer.
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On March 08 2024 11:18 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 11:16 Antithesis wrote:Good patch. I think the general direction is just right. Here is Harstem's view of it, and I largely agree. It's also amusing that Harstem directly argues against some TL.net's favorite opinions, such as that TvZ is zerg-favored and that building ravens in TvZ is out of the question for principled reasons. On March 08 2024 10:55 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:47 WombaT wrote:On March 08 2024 10:37 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:35 WombaT wrote:On March 08 2024 10:31 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:30 WombaT wrote:On March 08 2024 10:23 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:20 WombaT wrote:
[quote]
Fair but as the pro scene is gradually winding down I mean there’s something to be said for making the game a bit more enjoyable at a casual level.
The game’s been balanced based of a pro level of play for like forever ideally you balance around both with more emphasis on pro level but being too swung by community brigading when most of them are not affected by said balance/dont even know implication of their whine nerfs have me doubting on listening to community at all. I mean to a certain degree sure, equally how many of these changes proposed were things the Reddit community were screaming for? Any changes proposed that reddit community screamed for getting through is 1 more than it should ever be. What ones? TL is slightly less balance whiny than Reddit, the latter I don’t really frequent that often. Basically none of these proposed changes strike me as things people were vociferously advocating for. So what are these changes that Reddit whining have apparently pushed to the PTR testing level? past like 5 months of reddit was just pure whining about widow mines and notable members of diamond protoss community trying really hard to link it to pro games/any means to justify it, with stemmed from "why did widow mines get buffed?!" last patch. It was pretty clear they took the opportunity to whine and ran with it despite the change on mine having 0 effect on what was killing them inf irst place. and all this did was prove that whining on reddit works. It was daily half of frontpage for months. Just widow mine posts after widow mine posts. if it's going to change, change it in a bigger patch that deals with all these concerns without specifically advocating the one community whine posts clump. Address multiple at once without acknowledging a particular event. All this did was give them approval and set a precedence Isn’t that what they’re potentially doing here? Tbh I don’t personally like it, I didn’t like the last couple of patches either where they changed like 8 things at once in a big patch rather than gradually doing targeted changes but more frequently. How does one assess the effectiveness of one change if there’s a bunch running alongside it etc I'm fine with them touching unit itself, but not fine with the sole change to be targeted for widow mine clearly because reddit whined it. It's just rewarding that. If they were going ot change it, they should have addressed multiple unit of similar fashion and avoid acklowedging the direct influence balance whining on reddit has. If you dislike nerfs being whined into existence, why don't you mention the infestor nerf in the same breath? The past weeks have seen a comical amount of whining about the infestor here on TL (but, notably, not on Reddit), although it is essentially only a single player in the world – the best player in the world – who can use them to their full potential. It also took like five minutes of whining for terrans to get what they wanted, while protoss has to wait years, but let's not pretend that everyone isn't aware of that.
More like Maru filed the complain and the council immediately approve it, what power that man has, lol.
Btw the Libs nerf might have to do with how one Lib might deny the entire mineral line by seiging in the dead space behind the base and there is nothing Zerg/Toss can do about it without an air unit.
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On March 08 2024 11:18 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 11:16 Antithesis wrote:Good patch. I think the general direction is just right. Here is Harstem's view of it, and I largely agree. It's also amusing that Harstem directly argues against some TL.net's favorite opinions, such as that TvZ is zerg-favored and that building ravens in TvZ is out of the question for principled reasons. On March 08 2024 10:55 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:47 WombaT wrote:On March 08 2024 10:37 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:35 WombaT wrote:On March 08 2024 10:31 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:30 WombaT wrote:On March 08 2024 10:23 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 10:20 WombaT wrote:
[quote]
Fair but as the pro scene is gradually winding down I mean there’s something to be said for making the game a bit more enjoyable at a casual level.
The game’s been balanced based of a pro level of play for like forever ideally you balance around both with more emphasis on pro level but being too swung by community brigading when most of them are not affected by said balance/dont even know implication of their whine nerfs have me doubting on listening to community at all. I mean to a certain degree sure, equally how many of these changes proposed were things the Reddit community were screaming for? Any changes proposed that reddit community screamed for getting through is 1 more than it should ever be. What ones? TL is slightly less balance whiny than Reddit, the latter I don’t really frequent that often. Basically none of these proposed changes strike me as things people were vociferously advocating for. So what are these changes that Reddit whining have apparently pushed to the PTR testing level? past like 5 months of reddit was just pure whining about widow mines and notable members of diamond protoss community trying really hard to link it to pro games/any means to justify it, with stemmed from "why did widow mines get buffed?!" last patch. It was pretty clear they took the opportunity to whine and ran with it despite the change on mine having 0 effect on what was killing them inf irst place. and all this did was prove that whining on reddit works. It was daily half of frontpage for months. Just widow mine posts after widow mine posts. if it's going to change, change it in a bigger patch that deals with all these concerns without specifically advocating the one community whine posts clump. Address multiple at once without acknowledging a particular event. All this did was give them approval and set a precedence Isn’t that what they’re potentially doing here? Tbh I don’t personally like it, I didn’t like the last couple of patches either where they changed like 8 things at once in a big patch rather than gradually doing targeted changes but more frequently. How does one assess the effectiveness of one change if there’s a bunch running alongside it etc I'm fine with them touching unit itself, but not fine with the sole change to be targeted for widow mine clearly because reddit whined it. It's just rewarding that. If they were going ot change it, they should have addressed multiple unit of similar fashion and avoid acklowedging the direct influence balance whining on reddit has. If you dislike nerfs being whined into existence, why don't you mention the infestor nerf in the same breath? The past weeks have seen a comical amount of whining about the infestor here on TL (but, notably, not on Reddit), although it is essentially only a single player in the world – the best player in the world – who can use them to their full potential. It also took like five minutes of whining for terrans to get what they wanted, while protoss has to wait years, but let's not pretend that everyone isn't aware of that.
Exactly.
The historical discrepancies are actually hilarious if we think about it. The present notion that infestors are somehow OP was conjured up, on the fly, while we were still witnessing game two between Serral and Maru in Katowice (happily ignoring, of course, the rest of the series). Then Maru reinforced it a couple of weeks ago. And now it took only like what, a month, until the unit got nerfed. And yet some people are unhappy with the fact that months, if not years, of dissatisfaction with the widow mine, a unit almost universally considered to be incredibly frustrating, finally have an effect.
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Throwing random suggestions that have been mentioned before
1) Why not buff Canon air attack damage from 20 to 20 + 10 vs Biological?
Just to make defending vs Mutas a little less punishing. It's not going to change the fact that a flock of mutas will snipe that 1 canon quickly, but hey taking a little more damage adds up, especially if you build multiple.
2) Why buff Sentry damage only vs Protoss? Why not buff Sentry damage from 6 to 8 (revert the WoL beta nerf), or even from 6 to 10? It would strengthen Gateway comps slightly, and give a tiny more help vs Mutas.
3) Instead of the Cyclone, there is a better unit to buff that very targetedly helps Mech and not Bio. And that's the Hellion and Infernal Pre-igniter upgrade. Bio players only make 6-8 Hellions at most, usually in TvZ only, and basically never make more than 8 Hellions in any MU.
You can buff Hellion damage from 8 (+6 Light) to 9 (+5 Light), which helps compensate for the nerfed AA missile and helps Raven Hellion, which is a unique opener that can also help lead into Mech. You could also buff Infernal Pre-Igniter so that instead of increasing the damage from 8 (+6 Light) to 8 (+11 Light), it increases it to 11 (+8 Light) so it doesn't only give more bonus vs Light.
Neither of these will make Hellions suddenly beat Stalkers, Marauders, or Roaches. But they'll be slightly better vs Queens, and more importantly they'll be a little less sucky vs Stalkers and Marauders if you're forced to fight. (Maybe with some great plays and micro, you could trade well vs Stalkers which could allow to fun micro dances, but not actually counter them). Mech can be really weak early on and hard to hold a 3rd before you get enough Tanks, and giving just a little more damage to Hellions that you might use to open with would be nice!
It would also be a way to allow you to redistribute some of the Cyclone's dps to another Mech unit, and it would help make Mech unit's weaknesses a little less weak.
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Wait so will PvP not be phoenix wars anymore?
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I know I also made a snarky post like this one kinda recently but oh look, all the people who were assuring us Terran was doomed because something stupid and un-fun got nerfed (mass ghost snipe turtling) are back to again assure us that Terran is doomed because something stupid and un-fun got nerfed.
If Terran needs buffs after the stupidity that is Widow Mines took a hit, so be it, give them some buffs. I must say decreasing the upgrade costs feels minor to me but those also tend to feel more minor than they really are, and I'm certainly not going to claim the expertise necessary to judge that.
Call it reddit-tier analysis if you wish, but Terran victories should not be dependent on something so swingy. Mines are honestly bad enough in Brood War, I have no idea why they ever needed the ability to "explode" multiple times and to be moved and to be transported in medivacs. Disruptors and banelings took their turns to get a tap-down, now Widow Mines get the same.
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The intern is at it again!
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I wish they would experiment with increasing unit collision radius of bio by 10%
that would have a strange effect of nerfing big bio balls against non-splash units (lings, chargelot/stalker), but would nerf the splash counters (banes/storm/colossus/disruptor would have the same area of effect which now covers less bio).
I wonder if this would be a good change (i'm with the dudes who think the root of all evil is the stim bio and the splash options of the other races as a fix).
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On March 08 2024 12:08 Turbovolver wrote:
I know I also made a snarky post like this one kinda recently but oh look, all the people who were assuring us Terran was doomed because something stupid and un-fun got nerfed (mass ghost snipe turtling) are back to again assure us that Terran is doomed because something stupid and un-fun got nerfed.
If Terran needs buffs after the stupidity that is Widow Mines took a hit, so be it, give them some buffs. I must say decreasing the upgrade costs feels minor to me but those also tend to feel more minor than they really are, and I'm certainly not going to claim the expertise necessary to judge that.
Call it reddit-tier analysis if you wish, but Terran victories should not be dependent on something so swingy. Mines are honestly bad enough in Brood War, I have no idea why they ever needed the ability to "explode" multiple times and to be moved and to be transported in medivacs. Disruptors and banelings took their turns to get a tap-down, now Widow Mines get the same.
Funny how unfun Zerg bullshit always flies under the radar or gets extremely minor nerfs. Mass queen turtling? Still the standard. Insta-losing to a 75/75 nydus in your main. Totally fine apparently. Instant burrow lurkers? A .2 second burrow time increase will fix that! Vipers abducting units at 9 range for 75 energy (an effective instant kill most of the time). Oh, we'll add a .5 second delay _after_ the abduct, so it's harder for the viper to delete two units at the same time, instead of just one.
The baneling nerf is the only real, consequential nerf that Zerg has taken in ages that wasn't compensated for by some other change, and half of that nerf was just reverting the previous HP buff that banelings never should have gotten in the first place.
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Widow Mine has been the most hated unit in the game for years on every single SC2 related forum/circle I've been to, yet there's that one guy on this thread acting like it's just some Redditor's opinion, and the world is falling because balance council actually dare to address it.
Burrowed Infestors has been at work for years and I rarely ever heard anyone complained about it, yet when Maru actually lose to it for one game in the finals some people decided that it's unacceptable now, and got their wishes granted immediately. This of course got completely ignored by the whoever unhappy about Widow Mine nerf.
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The speed and timing of the Infestor nerf is truly incredible. Literally the best player in the world uses it to barely win 1 mined-out game against the best turtle Terran ever. Didn't seem to be a problem when Clem picked off a ton of burrowed infestors en route to a 3-1 victory a month prior, or with Reynor/Dark/Solar against any other Terran...Or you know, on ladder in general.
Not really a fan of the widow mine changes, if only because core unit interactions shouldn't be remixed at this point. Felt the same about the baneling nerf.
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WTF, heaviest window mine nerf ever w/ no meaningful compensation. How can Terrans fight ling/bane/muta or chargelots?
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EPT
