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Libs: I feel Lib range was fine, i just didn't understand why adding tons of range Libs so easily was a thing. Liberators don't need to be reactored. It's like being able to reactor Tanks, kind of silly design wise.
But it's also fine to nerf it a little. Massing Libs, Lurkers, Disruptors shouldn't be a thing, and it will still be powerful and fun.
Also it's great that 1 less range will make it slightly easier to design maps, using multi-prong Lib harass was too easy and strong.
WMs: Although it was great as a Terran player, i always felt tying invisibility to Armory was weird. I like tying it back to Drilling Claws.
I like gating things more behind upgrades in general, many upgrades and tech paths have gotten easier over the years, and it makes the game a little less interesting because there's less of a commitment in the tech choices you make.
Splash damage radius is pretty significant, but it's fine and i think it's good to reduce game ending damage.
Being able to kill say 6 probes instead of 9 probes is much less volatile. But damn, it won't be nearly as useful vs ling/bling anymore.
If WM gives an attack alert to the enemy, I think Disruptor nova could give an alert too. Nice they were able to increase the visibility of the targetting line!
I also wondered, couldn't they simply add a slight delay to WMs when being dropped from a Medivac, similar to Thors and Disruptors? It could even be 1 second. That plus the attack alert would make them less game ending.
This is also a mech nerf, but... funnily enough it does nerf Bio much more than mech, especially since it doesn't benefit from Armory upgrades. I never preferred to use WMs much anyway in mech comps.
What I don't like is that the WM didn't get any buffs to make up for it...
It's kind of a shame because these kind of zoning units (which double as harassment units), like Disruptor Lurker Lib WM etc., were made to be powerful to help slow the game down and make it a little more positional, and encourage and allow for both creating fires for the opponent and defending vs fires, and splitting things up more in general. But AOE decrease makes sense cus I guess SC2 has proven to still be a super fast game and making these units powerful hasn't really led to players for example, slowing down their army movement, usually it's more like people still need to try to move as fast as possible and sometimes it means they get hit by lots of WMs lol.
Armory: Design wise, it's whack for it to only be 50 gas... but balance wise, I like it cus it saves that precious 100 gas for Mech. Not enough to compensate for the WM nerf, but helps for non-WM comps!
Cyclone: So a slight damage nerf, a cooldown on Lock On, in return for being tanker. Good changes and I'm totally fine with this!
Mentioned this before, but making them have lower dps and higher HP will make it synergize better with Mech than Bio because they can soak more damage for your Tanks, and 130 HP is nice for 2 supply (only slightly less than Hellbats!).
The no-cooldown Lock On was so dumb just design wise. Abilities like that in games always have cooldowns.
Now personally, I'd like to see a 7 Lock On range maybe now that there's a cooldown, and reworking the damage slightly so that it's stronger for Mech TvP than Zerg,
but i guess the Lock-On cooldown would nerf it vs lings the most, requiring more Hellion support which is great, and the more tankiness will benefit tank Mech in general.
Cyclone upgrade scaling is hmm. I guess it further makes it benefit Mech more than bio, but for Mech the main thing is that they need something good enough vs early Blink Stalkers...
However paired with the HP change is interesting as it will help increase Mech lategame power while making it less OP early on.
I'm afraid that the Lock On cooldown will make Cyclones even weaker vs Blink Stalkers. I'm really hoping the HP change will compensate, and maybe it really will. But it'll take 8 shots vs 7 shots to kill a Cyclone now, while Cyclone damage is now 85% of what it used to be...
Dunno how the turret tracking and faster damage point will turn out... i guess it'll deal damage sooner and maybe glitch out vs lings less? Trying to stutter step with them felt really weird, I guess that's cus the turret took a while to turn. If that's what this change does, then this might help compensate for the Lockon cooldown vs Blink stalker micro.
Zerg: Infestor change might be an overreaction. Decreasing vision range is nice enough already, but i guess decreasing the unburrow time so slightly is only a tiny change.
Can we stop making weird buffs to overlords that allow for Queen drops?
Protoss: Making obs even easier to spot is weird.
Sentry damage buff is nice, but why vs P? Just revert the WoL Beta nerf so the damage goes back from 6 to 8. Removing light attribute is nice though, it didn't need to be weak vs banelings and hellions.
Overall some weird stuff again, but nothing as incriminating as a Consume buff. I'm happy for making Libs and WMs less overpowering, and some interesting small buffs for Mech specifically.
I guess i shouldn't grow too attached to these changes as they might change again. Though this time it's pushed directly to PTR not a balance map so maybe it's pretty set.
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I mostly like the changes, with some exceptions:
- Drop lord's should not get a buff, Zerg is already extremely mobile on offense with Nydus Worrns
- Why not decreasing WM damage vs shields instead of the radius? This way it would not affect TvZ
- Is the council memeing with the Sentry buff? At this point I just think they want to maintain their perfect record of never buffing any Protoss unit vs T or Z...
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All in all I like it. Libs are imo extremely oppressive for a unit that's reactored out, especially since T has a fairly easy time keeping air superiority and especially in TvP where T can pump out air superiority units much faster than P (and Z has a bunch of good ground units that softcounter libs anyways while stalkers are less than effective vs libs). Having a slightly lower range means that ground units now can actually get shots off before melting. It also affects TvP more than TvZ imo.
I get the ideas behind the infestor changes, burrowed infestors often deal game ending damage in TvZ. Then again it often feels like they need to, because if they don't T just fortifies the map and trades while Z slowly mines out. So not sure all in all on the ideas there.
WM nerfs are imo in the right direction. Although I agree that the splash damage reduction may be too much and the alert prolly should only go on when they're targeting workers (although they only alert when burrowing near your units, so it affects mines functioning as actual mines much less). Overall I think there should be a different way to nerf them than the radius nerf.
The buffs to T's infantry upgrades seem rather absurd to me, but what do I know. Overall I still think that EMP is way too strong vs shields and that's the main reason for why the matchup is skewed. But libs, interference matrix and how oppressive cyclones are early on definitely plays a role.
I like the obs buffs, but admittedly don't get why we make them more visible when T can just uncover part of the map for energy and they are high tech scouts.
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So a lib nerf and big mine nerfs in return for a side-grade for infestors. Cool.
I guess we'd better make sure that Zerg wins enough tournament money in SC2's twilight years!
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Sometimes nerfs on unfun units are fine too even if they were not op. If we get to a state where we can balance things out without having unfun interactions in the game its way better than to keep them imo. Same thing why banes were nerfed to not one shot probes anymore.
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On March 08 2024 08:19 darklycid wrote:
Sometimes nerfs on unfun units are fine too even if they were not op. If we get to a state where we can balance things out without having unfun interactions in the game its way better than to keep them imo. Same thing why banes were nerfed to not one shot probes anymore.
Yeah, but none of those unfun interactions are actually changing. The only thing that's changing is the reward for the attacker.
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As much as I don't like WM-like units - far too often terrans depend on good mine shoots too survive vs zerg. I wonder how these WM changes will affect the matchup.
As long as WM nerf doesn't prove to be too much in TvZ, otherwise this patch seems to be okayish, if unimpressive.
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I love this! THANK YOU so much for keeping in a few normal style maps. Goldenaura, Oceanborn and Site Delta are excellent choices. The first two in particular showcase how well this games' graphics have aged, and it absolutely is important when attracting new players (or pleasing old ones).
On March 08 2024 05:15 Telephone wrote:
So we nerfed terran and buffed zerg? Zerg could undergo a drastic nerf and still be the strongest race by a mile and instead infestor range has gone up by more than ten percent.
Yes, after the massive zerg nerfs last patch I think these very small "buffs" to zerg are absolutely warranted. They kept the baneling damage AND hp nerf, and that isn't enough for you? Remember they kept the infestor damage nerf, lurker nerf, broodlord nerf and now nerfed burrowed infestors.
"The strongest race by a mile" this is a common misconception and completely false.
If you look on Liquipedia's statistics page, here:  Statistics/2023
You will see that there exists zero trends of zerg domination overall. Not in basic, minor, major, nor total. Zerg was ahead in premier tournament wins only, an incredibly tiny sample size which arguably showcases nothing but individual player skill. If zerg was OP, we'd see zerg dominating all other tournaments too, but we don't.
In fact, if we look at Race distribution on the ladder (remember: no ladder players=no viewers, subs, or players)
https://nonapa.com/races?region=-1&mode=1&league=6&chart=1
We see that zerg is VERY underrepresented in GM. They used to be prevalent, but not for a while. GM demonstrated how hard it is to get into that rank-zerg is there in diamond but heavily falls off in Masters and GM. If zerg was OP, GM would be flooded with zergs.
On March 08 2024 07:37 Archeon wrote:
WM nerfs are imo in the right direction. Although I agree that the splash damage reduction may be too much and the alert prolly should only go on when they're targeting workers (although they only alert when burrowing near your units, so it affects mines functioning as actual mines much less). Overall I think there should be a different way to nerf them than the radius nerf.
I don't think the radius nerf is too much, it's a nice small buff to ling bane after the baneling nerfs. WM are just way, way way too effective vs ling bane. Very little resource cost and also costs very little attention to use.
The buffs to T's infantry upgrades seem rather absurd to me, but what do I know. Overall I still think that EMP is way too strong vs shields and that's the main reason for why the matchup is skewed. But libs, interference matrix and how oppressive cyclones are early on definitely plays a role.
I like the obs buffs, but admittedly don't get why we make them more visible when T can just uncover part of the map for energy and they are high tech scouts.
I agree. Terran bio is still very, very powerful, coming ahead last patch with nerfs to banelings and disruptors. I don't think the reduction to upgrade costs is necessary.
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I'm fine with the balance council nerfing Terran as much as they need to for TvP, but these changes are egregious in TvZ. If the goal is for terrans to just die to 90 drone hydra-ling-bane every game then this is a pretty good way to go about it.
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France12906 Posts
Terrans are already struggling versus Zerg, so this patch seems a bit weird
But as people said it’s the twilight years so it doesn’t really matter
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lmfao reddit diamond protoss balance whine brigade got what they wanted after months of whining despite it not being issue at pro level just because they had excuse to whine about mine having a "buff" on unburrow part.
That's fucking amazing. You'd think if they spent fraction of time whining to practicing, they would have been in masters long, long time ago.
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OMG i completely forgot, we're getting the new more unique maps!!
Glad to keep Goldenaura oceanborn site delta alcyone too, great solid maps.
Regarding WMs, isn't it possible to nerf the damage from 125 + 40 splash, to just 120 + 35 splash?
That way it takes 2 shots to kill workers, which might be a little weird, but it might be totally fine. You still kill 1 worker if a single WM hits. And you have a little more time to react because 2 WMs need to hit to kill multiple. This way, it still has a potent AOE vs Zerg. It might make Terrans consider dropping Marine/Hellion with their WM instead of loading up 4 WMs.
Another way to adjust it is, have 2 different splash zones.
WM does 125 (+35 vs Shield) single target, 40 splash (+25 vs Shield) to 1.5 radius (maybe even 1.25), and 35 (+20 vs Shield) splash to 1.75 radius. That way it does 5 less shield damage to some units so it'd still be slightly weaker in TvP fights.
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On March 08 2024 09:25 jinjin5000 wrote:
lmfao reddit diamond protoss balance whine brigade got what they wanted after months of whining despite it not being issue at pro level just because they had excuse to whine about mine having a "buff" on unburrow part.
That's fucking amazing. You'd think if they spent fraction of time whining to practicing, they would have been in masters long, long time ago.
just a payback for the observer nerf 
I dunno if i like the radius nerf but the rest is completely fine imo as i said wms lead to some of the most unfun interactions (even if not a problem really at high levels), which is a very fine reason to do changes against that (same goes for other of those insta poof units like disruptors).
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On March 08 2024 09:39 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 09:25 jinjin5000 wrote:
lmfao reddit diamond protoss balance whine brigade got what they wanted after months of whining despite it not being issue at pro level just because they had excuse to whine about mine having a "buff" on unburrow part.
That's fucking amazing. You'd think if they spent fraction of time whining to practicing, they would have been in masters long, long time ago. just a payback for the observer nerf I dunno if i like the radius nerf but the rest is completely fine imo as i said wms lead to some of the most unfun interactions (even if not a problem really at high levels), which is a very fine reason to do changes against that (same goes for other of those insta poof units like disruptors).
Now reddit knows it will work and /r/starcraft will turn into battle.net forums like it has been for past few months for rest of eternity.
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Canada8989 Posts
Just saw that one : Siege Tank Turret now tracks previously attacked unit.
Does anyone know if it changes attack priority or things of that nature?
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Widow mines finally gets the nerf it deserved
Nerf on burrow infestor, rather a direct nerf to Serral since no other Zergs can use it constantly
And what a joke patch for us Protoss. Really an observer buff is all we get?
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On March 08 2024 09:42 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 09:39 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:25 jinjin5000 wrote:
lmfao reddit diamond protoss balance whine brigade got what they wanted after months of whining despite it not being issue at pro level just because they had excuse to whine about mine having a "buff" on unburrow part.
That's fucking amazing. You'd think if they spent fraction of time whining to practicing, they would have been in masters long, long time ago. just a payback for the observer nerf I dunno if i like the radius nerf but the rest is completely fine imo as i said wms lead to some of the most unfun interactions (even if not a problem really at high levels), which is a very fine reason to do changes against that (same goes for other of those insta poof units like disruptors). Now reddit knows it will work and /r/starcraft will turn into battle.net forums like it has been for past few months for rest of eternity.
I mean why shouldnt they change unfun interactions? Because they are neccessary for the balance? Sounds like a shit crux to rely on.
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On March 08 2024 09:48 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 09:42 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:39 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:25 jinjin5000 wrote:
lmfao reddit diamond protoss balance whine brigade got what they wanted after months of whining despite it not being issue at pro level just because they had excuse to whine about mine having a "buff" on unburrow part.
That's fucking amazing. You'd think if they spent fraction of time whining to practicing, they would have been in masters long, long time ago. just a payback for the observer nerf I dunno if i like the radius nerf but the rest is completely fine imo as i said wms lead to some of the most unfun interactions (even if not a problem really at high levels), which is a very fine reason to do changes against that (same goes for other of those insta poof units like disruptors). Now reddit knows it will work and /r/starcraft will turn into battle.net forums like it has been for past few months for rest of eternity. I mean why shouldnt they change unfun interactions? Because they are neccessary for the balance? Sounds like a shit crux to rely on.
I won't deny units like disruptor, widow mines, ect are terrible unit design and SC2 has way too much of instant lose aoe units/harass units, but touching a unit that only really affects pvt at low level and has much bigger implication for tvz just because diamond protoss redditors whined really hard for past few months is just sending wrong message.
People pulling forward pro stats/"there was a BUFF to mines!!!" justification to rally their thinly-veiled agenda when there were much needed concerns elsewhere just proves to these guys that what they do are working. If they were going to touch these units, they should really touch a lot of them and revamp all at once instead of "community feedback". If you are going to touch these units, don't do it in way that justify these low level whiners pushing their own agenda.
Only if those whiners spent fraction of time in the game instead of whining, they wouldn't have widow mine drop as concern anymore to them lol.
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On March 08 2024 09:53 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 09:48 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:42 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:39 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:25 jinjin5000 wrote:
lmfao reddit diamond protoss balance whine brigade got what they wanted after months of whining despite it not being issue at pro level just because they had excuse to whine about mine having a "buff" on unburrow part.
That's fucking amazing. You'd think if they spent fraction of time whining to practicing, they would have been in masters long, long time ago. just a payback for the observer nerf I dunno if i like the radius nerf but the rest is completely fine imo as i said wms lead to some of the most unfun interactions (even if not a problem really at high levels), which is a very fine reason to do changes against that (same goes for other of those insta poof units like disruptors). Now reddit knows it will work and /r/starcraft will turn into battle.net forums like it has been for past few months for rest of eternity. I mean why shouldnt they change unfun interactions? Because they are neccessary for the balance? Sounds like a shit crux to rely on. I won't deny units like disruptor, widow mines, ect are terrible unit design and SC2 has way too much of instant lose aoe units/harass units, but touching a unit that only really affects pvt at low level and has much bigger implication for tvz just because diamond protoss redditors whined really hard for past few months is just sending wrong message. People pulling forward pro stats/"there was a BUFF to mines!!!" justification to rally their thinly-veiled agenda when there were much needed concerns elsewhere just proves to these guys that what they do are working. If they were going to touch these units, they should really touch a lot of them and revamp all at once instead of "community feedback". If you are going to touch these units, don't do it in way that justify these low level whiners pushing their own agenda. Only if those whiners spent fraction of time in the game instead of whining, they wouldn't have widow mine drop as concern anymore to them lol.
I mean wms were still frutrating to pros as well (can listen to e.g. showtime on his stream occasionally mentioning it iirc), so the unfun part isnt only for lower levels tho it was obv not unbalanced on pro level.
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On March 08 2024 09:57 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 09:53 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:48 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:42 jinjin5000 wrote:On March 08 2024 09:39 darklycid wrote:On March 08 2024 09:25 jinjin5000 wrote:
lmfao reddit diamond protoss balance whine brigade got what they wanted after months of whining despite it not being issue at pro level just because they had excuse to whine about mine having a "buff" on unburrow part.
That's fucking amazing. You'd think if they spent fraction of time whining to practicing, they would have been in masters long, long time ago. just a payback for the observer nerf I dunno if i like the radius nerf but the rest is completely fine imo as i said wms lead to some of the most unfun interactions (even if not a problem really at high levels), which is a very fine reason to do changes against that (same goes for other of those insta poof units like disruptors). Now reddit knows it will work and /r/starcraft will turn into battle.net forums like it has been for past few months for rest of eternity. I mean why shouldnt they change unfun interactions? Because they are neccessary for the balance? Sounds like a shit crux to rely on. I won't deny units like disruptor, widow mines, ect are terrible unit design and SC2 has way too much of instant lose aoe units/harass units, but touching a unit that only really affects pvt at low level and has much bigger implication for tvz just because diamond protoss redditors whined really hard for past few months is just sending wrong message. People pulling forward pro stats/"there was a BUFF to mines!!!" justification to rally their thinly-veiled agenda when there were much needed concerns elsewhere just proves to these guys that what they do are working. If they were going to touch these units, they should really touch a lot of them and revamp all at once instead of "community feedback". If you are going to touch these units, don't do it in way that justify these low level whiners pushing their own agenda. Only if those whiners spent fraction of time in the game instead of whining, they wouldn't have widow mine drop as concern anymore to them lol. I mean wms were still frutrating to pros as well (can listen to e.g. showtime on his stream occasionally mentioning it iirc), so the unfun part isnt only for lower levels tho it was obv not unbalanced on pro level.
boy, if you are going to take those complaints on stream from pros as proof of unbalanced on pro level, IDK what to tell you lmfao.
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