On March 08 2024 05:16 Ciaus237 wrote: Lmao goodbye TvZ.
What I like: Observer change, infestor changes, visibility and alert changes for WM (honestly WM drops are so painful this is just good for the game), pylon vision radius.
What I don't like: WM splash radius, Lib range nerfs. The lib nerf seems unnecessary? Why are we changing this? And the splash radius is just going to delete bio mine from TvZ completely.
Everything else just seems kind of arbitrary. Like... why the sentry + shield damage? What's the plan there? The dropperlord changes seem like an overall buff, I guess, but why? Will have to see how the cyclone plays out to have any feel for it - on first read it seems like they've moved it midway between its last two iterations. Just not really understanding their rationale for this patch.
Yeah pretty much this. I can get behind the nerfs to WM drops as those can be really frustrating but in head to head engagements they really aren't a problem at all and the radius nerf will probably prevent them from fulfilling their only role in them
Nerfing lib range and buffing fungal range seem questionable. Ranged libs are the main unit Terran uses to zone out infestors during lategame and that interaction is being changed in both directions. Mine radius nerf feels like it will help zerglings way more than probes.
Overall feels like Zerg got buffed more in ZvT than Protoss in PvT.
On March 08 2024 04:58 Nebuchad wrote: There are many games in which a good widow mine hit happens and then we pretend the game isn't over for ten minutes. There will now be fewer of those. It's not the change I would have done in TvP, seems strange to focus on this interaction and not the ghost interaction, but it isn't nothing at all.
In the balance council's own words. They aren't nerfing Widow Mines because they think it will help TvP. They are nerfing them because it's a "community concern at all levels of play."
They're calling it what it is. A reaction to r/starcraft whining about it so often. That's all it is. The council isn't considering it anything more substantial than that.
The fact it has the largest impact by far in TvZ isn't really a concern to anybody apparently.
It is objectively true that it will help TvP. I agree with you that it isn't the change I would have made either, but there's no reason to lie about something obvious.
Read the balance council's post, don't take it from me. They say in their own words why they are nerfing Widow Mines.
They're nerfing Liberator range for TvP. They're nerfing Widow Mines because r/starcraft wants them to.
Do you really require an argument as to why instalosing to a widow mine drop a little less often will help protoss in PvT?
I agree that widow mines on toss worker lines were pretty anticlimactic and too powerful for the amount of effort. I just would prefer something else besides the attack alert. I feel like that is such a weird decision and I really can't think of any other interaction like this.
Why is shift clicking mines to walk towards a third base any different than rolling banes in? I really don't get it. By the time you get the alert for banes your workers are dead and for mines you get the alert to pull workers away before the damage is done?
Again totally fine with making changes to help toss in PvT since they're struggling
On March 08 2024 04:58 Nebuchad wrote: There are many games in which a good widow mine hit happens and then we pretend the game isn't over for ten minutes. There will now be fewer of those. It's not the change I would have done in TvP, seems strange to focus on this interaction and not the ghost interaction, but it isn't nothing at all.
In the balance council's own words. They aren't nerfing Widow Mines because they think it will help TvP. They are nerfing them because it's a "community concern at all levels of play."
They're calling it what it is. A reaction to r/starcraft whining about it so often. That's all it is. The council isn't considering it anything more substantial than that.
The fact it has the largest impact by far in TvZ isn't really a concern to anybody apparently.
It is objectively true that it will help TvP. I agree with you that it isn't the change I would have made either, but there's no reason to lie about something obvious.
Read the balance council's post, don't take it from me. They say in their own words why they are nerfing Widow Mines.
They're nerfing Liberator range for TvP. They're nerfing Widow Mines because r/starcraft wants them to.
Do you really require an argument as to why instalosing to a widow mine drop a little less often will help protoss in PvT?
Do you really need me to explain how gutting the Widow Mine does next to NOTHING for Protoss in a tournament setting? So Terrans won't open with Widow Mine drops as often anymore, big deal. There's dozens of other openings to go for.
You're smarter than this Nebuchad. You know as well as I do, this change will have a much bigger impact on the ladder than in tournaments. This change will have a much bigger impact in TvZ than it will in TvP.
This change wasn't done to address the balance issue that everyone agrees needs to be addressed. This change is being done because enough people on r/starcraft whined about it.
You don't need to convince me that this change will have AN impact. I obviously know it will. You need to convince me that this is a good change. It's not.
On March 08 2024 04:58 Nebuchad wrote: There are many games in which a good widow mine hit happens and then we pretend the game isn't over for ten minutes. There will now be fewer of those. It's not the change I would have done in TvP, seems strange to focus on this interaction and not the ghost interaction, but it isn't nothing at all.
In the balance council's own words. They aren't nerfing Widow Mines because they think it will help TvP. They are nerfing them because it's a "community concern at all levels of play."
They're calling it what it is. A reaction to r/starcraft whining about it so often. That's all it is. The council isn't considering it anything more substantial than that.
The fact it has the largest impact by far in TvZ isn't really a concern to anybody apparently.
It is objectively true that it will help TvP. I agree with you that it isn't the change I would have made either, but there's no reason to lie about something obvious.
Read the balance council's post, don't take it from me. They say in their own words why they are nerfing Widow Mines.
They're nerfing Liberator range for TvP. They're nerfing Widow Mines because r/starcraft wants them to.
Do you really require an argument as to why instalosing to a widow mine drop a little less often will help protoss in PvT?
I don't think that really happens at pro level. At least not often enough that it will have a significant impact
On March 08 2024 04:58 Nebuchad wrote: There are many games in which a good widow mine hit happens and then we pretend the game isn't over for ten minutes. There will now be fewer of those. It's not the change I would have done in TvP, seems strange to focus on this interaction and not the ghost interaction, but it isn't nothing at all.
In the balance council's own words. They aren't nerfing Widow Mines because they think it will help TvP. They are nerfing them because it's a "community concern at all levels of play."
They're calling it what it is. A reaction to r/starcraft whining about it so often. That's all it is. The council isn't considering it anything more substantial than that.
The fact it has the largest impact by far in TvZ isn't really a concern to anybody apparently.
It is objectively true that it will help TvP. I agree with you that it isn't the change I would have made either, but there's no reason to lie about something obvious.
Read the balance council's post, don't take it from me. They say in their own words why they are nerfing Widow Mines.
They're nerfing Liberator range for TvP. They're nerfing Widow Mines because r/starcraft wants them to.
Do you really require an argument as to why instalosing to a widow mine drop a little less often will help protoss in PvT?
Do you really need me to explain how gutting the Widow Mine does next to NOTHING for Protoss in a tournament setting?
You're smarter than this Nebuchad. You know as well as I do, this change will have a much bigger impact on the ladder than in tournaments. This change will have a much bigger impact in TvZ than it will in TvP.
This change wasn't done to address the balance issue that everyone agrees needs to be addressed. This change is being done because enough people on r/starcraft whined about it.
You don't need to convince me that this change will have AN impact. I obviously know it will. You need to convince me that this is a good change. It's not.
Ok we're in a tournament setting, I'm one of the top protosses in the world, I missed a widow mine hit, I lost the game, we're now 0-1 in favor of the terran. Patch hits, now I haven't lost the game, we're still 0-0. Pretty big impact in my opinion.
On March 08 2024 04:58 Nebuchad wrote: There are many games in which a good widow mine hit happens and then we pretend the game isn't over for ten minutes. There will now be fewer of those. It's not the change I would have done in TvP, seems strange to focus on this interaction and not the ghost interaction, but it isn't nothing at all.
In the balance council's own words. They aren't nerfing Widow Mines because they think it will help TvP. They are nerfing them because it's a "community concern at all levels of play."
They're calling it what it is. A reaction to r/starcraft whining about it so often. That's all it is. The council isn't considering it anything more substantial than that.
The fact it has the largest impact by far in TvZ isn't really a concern to anybody apparently.
It is objectively true that it will help TvP. I agree with you that it isn't the change I would have made either, but there's no reason to lie about something obvious.
Read the balance council's post, don't take it from me. They say in their own words why they are nerfing Widow Mines.
They're nerfing Liberator range for TvP. They're nerfing Widow Mines because r/starcraft wants them to.
Do you really require an argument as to why instalosing to a widow mine drop a little less often will help protoss in PvT?
I don't think that really happens at pro level. At least not often enough that it will have a significant impact
On March 08 2024 04:58 Nebuchad wrote: There are many games in which a good widow mine hit happens and then we pretend the game isn't over for ten minutes. There will now be fewer of those. It's not the change I would have done in TvP, seems strange to focus on this interaction and not the ghost interaction, but it isn't nothing at all.
In the balance council's own words. They aren't nerfing Widow Mines because they think it will help TvP. They are nerfing them because it's a "community concern at all levels of play."
They're calling it what it is. A reaction to r/starcraft whining about it so often. That's all it is. The council isn't considering it anything more substantial than that.
The fact it has the largest impact by far in TvZ isn't really a concern to anybody apparently.
It is objectively true that it will help TvP. I agree with you that it isn't the change I would have made either, but there's no reason to lie about something obvious.
Read the balance council's post, don't take it from me. They say in their own words why they are nerfing Widow Mines.
They're nerfing Liberator range for TvP. They're nerfing Widow Mines because r/starcraft wants them to.
Do you really require an argument as to why instalosing to a widow mine drop a little less often will help protoss in PvT?
I don't think that really happens at pro level. At least not often enough that it will have a significant impact
It does happen quite often. Maybe 1 in 15 games, something like that? That would be my guess. If widow mines drops are less dangerous you might also be able to adapt your opening.
Again it's not the change I would have made but it's absurd to say there's zero impact.
The changes to make Widow mines less frustrating to play against is nice, but that range nerf is probably too much. I hope it doesn't completely delete bio mine TvZ which is a iconic unit comb at this point.
Buff to creep is out of nowhere.
Someone finally got the burrowed infestor nerf they want.
Buffed sentry in PvP senarios? Did anyone asked for that? Who builds sentries for damage anyway? I'd much rather they to increase hallucination time or require two ravager shot for one force field.
On March 08 2024 04:58 Nebuchad wrote: There are many games in which a good widow mine hit happens and then we pretend the game isn't over for ten minutes. There will now be fewer of those. It's not the change I would have done in TvP, seems strange to focus on this interaction and not the ghost interaction, but it isn't nothing at all.
In the balance council's own words. They aren't nerfing Widow Mines because they think it will help TvP. They are nerfing them because it's a "community concern at all levels of play."
They're calling it what it is. A reaction to r/starcraft whining about it so often. That's all it is. The council isn't considering it anything more substantial than that.
The fact it has the largest impact by far in TvZ isn't really a concern to anybody apparently.
It is objectively true that it will help TvP. I agree with you that it isn't the change I would have made either, but there's no reason to lie about something obvious.
Read the balance council's post, don't take it from me. They say in their own words why they are nerfing Widow Mines.
They're nerfing Liberator range for TvP. They're nerfing Widow Mines because r/starcraft wants them to.
Do you really require an argument as to why instalosing to a widow mine drop a little less often will help protoss in PvT?
I don't think that really happens at pro level. At least not often enough that it will have a significant impact
It does happen quite often. Maybe 1 in 15 games, something like that? That would be my guess. If widow mines drops are less dangerous you might also be able to adapt your opening.
Again it's not the change I would have made but it's absurd to say there's zero impact.
The impact this change has on TvZ is WAY more significant.
Your 1 in 15 game "chance" that it might happen, vs a core unit interaction in TvZ. Which is the bigger impact Nebuchad?
Why the fuck are we nerfing Terran more vs Zerg than we are vs Protoss in the same patch we (the balance council says) say TvP is the match up that needs addressing over any of the others?
On March 08 2024 04:58 Nebuchad wrote: There are many games in which a good widow mine hit happens and then we pretend the game isn't over for ten minutes. There will now be fewer of those. It's not the change I would have done in TvP, seems strange to focus on this interaction and not the ghost interaction, but it isn't nothing at all.
In the balance council's own words. They aren't nerfing Widow Mines because they think it will help TvP. They are nerfing them because it's a "community concern at all levels of play."
They're calling it what it is. A reaction to r/starcraft whining about it so often. That's all it is. The council isn't considering it anything more substantial than that.
The fact it has the largest impact by far in TvZ isn't really a concern to anybody apparently.
It is objectively true that it will help TvP. I agree with you that it isn't the change I would have made either, but there's no reason to lie about something obvious.
Read the balance council's post, don't take it from me. They say in their own words why they are nerfing Widow Mines.
They're nerfing Liberator range for TvP. They're nerfing Widow Mines because r/starcraft wants them to.
Do you really require an argument as to why instalosing to a widow mine drop a little less often will help protoss in PvT?
I don't think that really happens at pro level. At least not often enough that it will have a significant impact
It does happen quite often. Maybe 1 in 15 games, something like that? That would be my guess. If widow mines drops are less dangerous you might also be able to adapt your opening.
Again it's not the change I would have made but it's absurd to say there's zero impact.
The impact this change has on TvZ is WAY more significant.
Your 1 in 15 game "chance" that it might happen, vs a core unit interaction in TvZ. Which is the bigger impact Nebuchad?
Why the fuck are we nerfing Terran more vs Zerg than we are vs Protoss in the same patch we (the balance council says) say TvP is the match up that needs addressing over any of the others.
Explain this logic to me please.
You're changing the argument, I don't care about tvz
On March 08 2024 04:58 Nebuchad wrote: There are many games in which a good widow mine hit happens and then we pretend the game isn't over for ten minutes. There will now be fewer of those. It's not the change I would have done in TvP, seems strange to focus on this interaction and not the ghost interaction, but it isn't nothing at all.
In the balance council's own words. They aren't nerfing Widow Mines because they think it will help TvP. They are nerfing them because it's a "community concern at all levels of play."
They're calling it what it is. A reaction to r/starcraft whining about it so often. That's all it is. The council isn't considering it anything more substantial than that.
The fact it has the largest impact by far in TvZ isn't really a concern to anybody apparently.
It is objectively true that it will help TvP. I agree with you that it isn't the change I would have made either, but there's no reason to lie about something obvious.
Read the balance council's post, don't take it from me. They say in their own words why they are nerfing Widow Mines.
They're nerfing Liberator range for TvP. They're nerfing Widow Mines because r/starcraft wants them to.
Do you really require an argument as to why instalosing to a widow mine drop a little less often will help protoss in PvT?
I don't think that really happens at pro level. At least not often enough that it will have a significant impact
It does happen quite often. Maybe 1 in 15 games, something like that? That would be my guess. If widow mines drops are less dangerous you might also be able to adapt your opening.
Again it's not the change I would have made but it's absurd to say there's zero impact.
The impact this change has on TvZ is WAY more significant.
Your 1 in 15 game "chance" that it might happen, vs a core unit interaction in TvZ. Which is the bigger impact Nebuchad?
Why the fuck are we nerfing Terran more vs Zerg than we are vs Protoss in the same patch we (the balance council says) say TvP is the match up that needs addressing over any of the others.
Explain this logic to me please.
You're changing the argument, I don't care about tvz
I'm not changing the argument, you're just not looking outside of your tunnel visioned box like you always do.
I'm not against this change because it doesn't have an impact on TvP, I'm against this change because it's a bad change that impacts TvZ more than TvP, that impacts the ladder more than it does tournaments, and yea it's obvious you don't care about TvZ. You just want to see Green Bars in the win collumn, you don't care how we get them.
On March 08 2024 05:42 Nebuchad wrote: So why did you open with the claim that it would change next to nothing in TvP and then spend a whole ass page arguing against me saying it would?
I said it would have no impact on Protoss tournament wins. I never said it would have no impact on TvP. I said it would have a negligible impact on TvP and I'm right on both counts. Wait and see.
hahah wow serral basically being responsible for all of the infestor nerfs. the last time i remember one player/game triggering an instant balance fix was stephano v zerg where it was a swarmhost stalemate.
re: every comment crying about zerg - the matchup is pretty balanced, and every pro who've said something in an interview/stream basically agrees (reynor, hero, maxpax, showtime are the ones i've seen [edit: and harstem in his latest video]). reynor is coin flipping vs herO these days, maxpax is even vs dark, and this is what you'd expect. serral being unbeatable is a serral thing, not a matchup thing, you shouldnt change the player because you dont want one person winning. the design might not be great, but thats not a balance thing.
that being said i still stop watching a tournament when all the protosses get eliminated, so it'd good for viewership and the scene if herO can stop throwing games.
On March 08 2024 05:42 Nebuchad wrote: So why did you open with the claim that it would change next to nothing in TvP and then spend a whole ass page arguing against me saying it would?
I said it would have no impact on Protoss tournament wins. I never said it would have no impact on TvP. I said it would have a negligible impact on TvP and I'm right on both counts. Wait and see.
You actually didn't say that btw, lol, but okay the next time you mean to say that and someone responds with "No it will help PvT" you can answer "I agree with you, it will help PvT, just not enough to win a tournament" instead of arguing against the notion that it will help PvT for a whole page and then pretending that I'm talking about which impact is bigger, TvZ or TvP, when I'm clearly not talking about that. Just a quick tip though maybe you prefer doing it this way.
EPT
