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On March 08 2024 05:50 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 05:46 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 08 2024 05:42 Nebuchad wrote:
So why did you open with the claim that it would change next to nothing in TvP and then spend a whole ass page arguing against me saying it would? I said it would have no impact on Protoss tournament wins. I never said it would have no impact on TvP. I said it would have a negligible impact on TvP and I'm right on both counts. Wait and see. You actually didn't say that btw, lol, but okay the next time you mean to say that and someone responds with "No it will help PvT" you can answer "I agree with you, it will help PvT, just not enough to win a tournament" instead of arguing against the notion that it will help PvT for a whole page and then pretending that I'm talking about which impact is bigger, TvZ or TvP, when I'm clearly not talking about that. Just a quick tip though maybe you prefer doing it this way.
On March 08 2024 04:43 Vindicare605 wrote:
reddit finally gets the Widow Mine nerfs it wants so badly.
I'm convinced these balance changes will have next to zero impact on Protoss' struggles in tournament play, which is the main balance concern for most.
These changes might have significant impacts in TvZ and TvT though. I for one am relieved the Cyclone is getting nerfed in TvT.
The Interference Matrix change is my favorite of this patch. Nerfs how oppresive the spell can be in situations in TvT. Also nerfs it slightly against Protoss which is still needed due to Terran timings with Ravens.
That is the first comment i wrote in this thread. My bad for assuming you actually read the thread and ALL of my comments before telling me what I said in this thread, rather than just the ones addressed to you specifically.
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On March 08 2024 05:53 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 05:50 Nebuchad wrote:On March 08 2024 05:46 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 08 2024 05:42 Nebuchad wrote:
So why did you open with the claim that it would change next to nothing in TvP and then spend a whole ass page arguing against me saying it would? I said it would have no impact on Protoss tournament wins. I never said it would have no impact on TvP. I said it would have a negligible impact on TvP and I'm right on both counts. Wait and see. You actually didn't say that btw, lol, but okay the next time you mean to say that and someone responds with "No it will help PvT" you can answer "I agree with you, it will help PvT, just not enough to win a tournament" instead of arguing against the notion that it will help PvT for a whole page and then pretending that I'm talking about which impact is bigger, TvZ or TvP, when I'm clearly not talking about that. Just a quick tip though maybe you prefer doing it this way. Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 04:43 Vindicare605 wrote:
reddit finally gets the Widow Mine nerfs it wants so badly.
I'm convinced these balance changes will have next to zero impact on Protoss' struggles in tournament play, which is the main balance concern for most.
These changes might have significant impacts in TvZ and TvT though. I for one am relieved the Cyclone is getting nerfed in TvT.
The Interference Matrix change is my favorite of this patch. Nerfs how oppresive the spell can be in situations in TvT. Also nerfs it slightly against Protoss which is still needed due to Terran timings with Ravens. That is the first post I read in this thread. My bad for assuming you actually read the thread and ALL of my comments before telling me what I said in this thread, rather than just the ones addressed to you specifically.
That's okay, I misunderstood you, when you said protoss struggles I thought you were referring to protoss struggles, rather than protoss winning a tournament. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.
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Nerfing widow mine drops somewhat is fine, I just think the nerf will be way too impactful in TvZ. Why couldn't the splash radius go back to 1.75 after researching drilling claws? That way TvZ wouldn't be too impacted, but full power mine drops would be a major commitment against Protoss.
Cheaper upgrades might allow for some nasty timings, but even if this compensates for the widow mine nerf (big if) I think the match-up will still be worse for it.
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Also can anyone explain to me why the balance council feels that Overlord drops need to be buffed? Why does Zerg need this? This feels like the Cyclone buffs all over again. Who is asking for faster Overlord drops? How does this help Protoss?
This and the Sentry change are both pork barrel changes. They seem like they just got tacked on as side projects certain council members wanted so they'd vote yes on the patch as a whole. If the stated goal of the patch was to address TvP at the highest level and Widow Mines, what are these changes for? Who are they for?
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Metal league terrans on teamliquid whining, the patch does what it should do then.
User was warned for this post
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On March 08 2024 05:45 bela.mervado wrote:
Overgrowth LE (Void)
is listed under 2v2 maps, but this was an 1v1 map
Could they mean  Overgrown Facility ? It's the only 2v2 map that has a remotely similar name that I could find with 30 seconds on Google, so somebody could correct me if I'm wrong
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On March 08 2024 06:04 Vindicare605 wrote:
Also can anyone explain to me why the balance council feels that Overlord drops need to be buffed? Why does Zerg need this? This feels like the Cyclone buffs all over again. Who is asking for faster Overlord drops? How does this help Protoss?
This and the Sentry change are both pork barrel changes. They seem like they just got tacked on as side projects certain council members wanted so they'd vote yes on the patch as a whole. If the stated goal of the patch was to address TvP at the highest level and Widow Mines, what are these changes for? Who are they for?
I agree, it's a weird patch. Feels like zerg will end up the best race instead of terran, and a lot of the changes seem like they're there just to have an additional line rather than because something was interesting or needed.
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United States1903 Posts
On March 08 2024 06:08 yubo56 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 05:45 bela.mervado wrote:
Overgrowth LE (Void)
is listed under 2v2 maps, but this was an 1v1 map
Could they mean Overgrown Facility ? It's the only 2v2 map that has a remotely similar name that I could find with 30 seconds on Google, so somebody could correct me if I'm wrong
Ding Ding Ding!
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The sentry change will actually be quite interesting in PvP. Sentries will be far better against adepts and oracles; adept openings (and especially adept into oracle) have been very dangerous to sentry/stalker first openers. Strengthening the sentry vs adept/oracle will promote faster/safer scouting, which should reward more stable macro play.
I don't know if this was necessary, but it will cause an interesting meta shift. I am looking forward to it.
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The weirdest thing about the WM changes are that I don't think the alert and indicator changes will change anything at lower skill levels. If you only start reacting once the widow mine is already in the process of burrowing you need lightning fast reactions to move away your probes in time and seperating only the targeted probes isn't easy either.
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On March 08 2024 05:20 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 05:16 Nebuchad wrote:On March 08 2024 05:00 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 08 2024 04:58 Nebuchad wrote:
There are many games in which a good widow mine hit happens and then we pretend the game isn't over for ten minutes. There will now be fewer of those. It's not the change I would have done in TvP, seems strange to focus on this interaction and not the ghost interaction, but it isn't nothing at all. In the balance council's own words. They aren't nerfing Widow Mines because they think it will help TvP. They are nerfing them because it's a "community concern at all levels of play." They're calling it what it is. A reaction to r/starcraft whining about it so often. That's all it is. The council isn't considering it anything more substantial than that. The fact it has the largest impact by far in TvZ isn't really a concern to anybody apparently. It is objectively true that it will help TvP. I agree with you that it isn't the change I would have made either, but there's no reason to lie about something obvious. Read the balance council's post, don't take it from me. They say in their own words why they are nerfing Widow Mines. They're nerfing Liberator range for TvP. They're nerfing Widow Mines because r/starcraft wants them to.
FROM THE BALANCE COUNCIL'S POST:
Reduce game ending moments when Armory-cloaked Widow Mines are dropped throughout multiple Protoss bases in the midgame.
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On March 08 2024 06:24 Captain Peabody wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2024 05:20 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 08 2024 05:16 Nebuchad wrote:On March 08 2024 05:00 Vindicare605 wrote:On March 08 2024 04:58 Nebuchad wrote:
There are many games in which a good widow mine hit happens and then we pretend the game isn't over for ten minutes. There will now be fewer of those. It's not the change I would have done in TvP, seems strange to focus on this interaction and not the ghost interaction, but it isn't nothing at all. In the balance council's own words. They aren't nerfing Widow Mines because they think it will help TvP. They are nerfing them because it's a "community concern at all levels of play." They're calling it what it is. A reaction to r/starcraft whining about it so often. That's all it is. The council isn't considering it anything more substantial than that. The fact it has the largest impact by far in TvZ isn't really a concern to anybody apparently. It is objectively true that it will help TvP. I agree with you that it isn't the change I would have made either, but there's no reason to lie about something obvious. Read the balance council's post, don't take it from me. They say in their own words why they are nerfing Widow Mines. They're nerfing Liberator range for TvP. They're nerfing Widow Mines because r/starcraft wants them to. FROM THE BALANCE COUNCIL'S POST: Show nested quote +Reduce game ending moments when Armory-cloaked Widow Mines are dropped throughout multiple Protoss bases in the midgame.
Yes that's why it's a community concern. Not why it's a problem at the highest level of TvP games. You see when you post the entire context of a post it changes the meaning of the post. That's why context is important.
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when does the patch go live?
just played a ladder game and the changes are not in effect.
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On March 08 2024 06:33 CicadaSC wrote:
when does the patch go live?
just played a ladder game and the changes are not in effect.
These are the notes for the Public Test Realm which if it's not available yet, should be available today. Should be able to access it through the client like normal. Do they still also have PTR custom games on the Arcade? that's how I used to test these.
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On March 08 2024 06:23 Charoisaur wrote:
The weirdest thing about the WM changes are that I don't think the alert and indicator changes will change anything at lower skill levels. If you only start reacting once the widow mine is already in the process of burrowing you need lightning fast reactions to move away your probes in time and seperating only the targeted probes isn't easy either.
I agree since you would look to split and mitigate the shot damage at that point. My biggest issue is inconsistency, I don't get minimap alerts when a disruptor ball is over my bio clump or when ravagers bile my clump while I'm macroing. Edit: I mean alerts pre effect I know we get alerts once they actually connect
These are all obviously avoidable by me playing better, so then why would the mine be the sole exception here?
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What does this patch do to provide protoss a splash alternative to disruptors?
Nothing?
Hard pass, cancel the entire thing.
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Widow mine visibility - coming from a BW standpoint that is laughable, but with the general SC2 approach of things, the general design of the game goes in that direction, so why not.
I agree with some of the other comments, Protoss needs more sugar, and I am saying that as someone whos least favorite race is P.
About liberators, hard to say, because this affects the different matchups in different ways, but generally, range changes are amongst the most radical changes you can make.
On the zerg side of things, I see detail changes that confuse me, maybe someone can enlighten me. The infestor changes seem to be very targeted at Serral and of course TvZ in general.
Overall, while the patch is not bad, I am a bit unimpressed. I think Protoss needs more tweaking
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Anyway, while it seems very bizarre to me to claim that Widow Mine drops aren't an issue at all at the highest levels of TvP, this still seems like an odd set of changes to "fix" TvP.
I actually more or less agree with the implicit analysis that PvZ and TvZ are more or less in a good state, and the problem is TvP. I also more or less agree that two of the big issues in the matchup are Bio-Mine-Lib being just silly in how much it checkmates Protoss ground armies and there being too much fragility in Protoss openings and early-game defensive play. And all these changes at least broadly make sense along those lines. Nerfing early-game cyclone not only helps with all-ins, but as Harstem says has the potential to help the strength of Protoss cheese vs Terran also. The widow-mine nerfs help significantly at the highest level with a very potentially snowbally and oppressive opening; and again, I owe to Harstem that the widow mine nerfs also help significantly with Zealot runbys. In theory, the HT change has the potential to make Feedback significantly better against Ghosts. The Observer change feels good.
All that being said, these changes don't really feel like enough even for TvP. Nerfing mine-ghost-lib is very right and even necessary, and ending that stupid interaction with Liberators and needing to build a single phoenix is great, but this nerf feels largely unimpactful for actual engagements, which is where Ghost-Lib is most oppressive in just melting entire Protoss ground armies with little or no counterplay. They need to just actually nerf ghosts or liberators; and between the two, liberators are the obvious one to target since they affect TvZ less. So actually nerf liberators so they no longer 1-shot Stalkers with an EMP! Or, idk, buff a Protoss ground unit!
While I get the idea behind buffing Protoss without buffing Protoss units so as not to destabilize PvZ (which actually feels like it's in a fairly decent spot)...I don't know, maybe actually buff a Protoss unit for real anyway? If the need is to make early game Protoss less fragile, then it seems hard to do that without just buffing early game Protoss. It hardly feels like a minor or targeted buff is impossible or would make Protoss unbeatable. The Sentry change feels great for PvP; but why not buff the Sentry for the other matchups also? It hardly feels like Terrans or Zergs are going to fall apart with a little more Sentry damage.
As for the TvZ changes, the widow mine stuff I think is fine, and I don't really see any genuine need to nerf the Infestor, but I also think the change won't make that big of a difference. But given the dire straits of Protoss and TvP at the moment, this doesn't really feel like enough tbh.
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Tbh I'm changing my mind, this patch seems pretty good. I had overlooked some aspects of it at first, Harstem's video helped me see things that I hadn't considered
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Canada8989 Posts
On March 08 2024 04:37 Vindicare605 wrote:
• Burrowed Infestor is now more visible while moving.
Hey I whined something into existence!
Interesting patch all around. I'm not against centering a patch on a single race (terran), we'll see how it goes, good idea all around I think, although its a lot of terran nerf at once. I'm very perplexed about the overlord speed change, I feel like drops are in a good place where they are and I don't really want to see zerg drop zoom pass missile turret or cannons, especially since nydus is still pretty underuse imo.
Also, a little heads up, I think the collapsing rocks killing mineral patch may make break some old maps, not sure it's worth it.
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EPT
