On February 27 2024 10:41 Waxangel wrote: Personally I still think Rogue CLEARLY has the greatest career resume of all time.
But I pushed Serral ahead of him to #1 GOAT recently because his resume now comes close enough-ish with world championship #3, and the aura-of-terror factor that's persisted since second-half 2018 has just become historically ridiculous (based on how other pros speak about him, how he's perceived in the community, etc).
I'm looking at their results on their liquipedia pages, and I don't see it. I can understand why some may have his resume edging over Serral's, but..."CLEARLY"??
I can easily name Rogue's biggest wins: Two IEM WCs, and 1 Blizzcon WC, four code S, an IEM Shanghai, two GSL STs, and...what else am I missing that is significant?
Serral: Same big threes as Rogue; two Master's Coliseums; ESL masters wins over Clem, Trap (x2), Gumiho, and Stats; single-handedly carried Finland to #1 in 2019 Nation Wars; homestory cups over Reynor, Clem (x2), TY, Solar, and Innovation; two GSL v TW; Teamliquid Starleague 9; too many 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place premieres to even count; and finally, I know many official writers here don't think much of the region-locked cups, but the shit ton (8 to be exact) of those wins where he went through many Code S-level EU players should at least amount to something?? Do these writers really think that eight tournaments where he had to go through players like Elazer, Heromarine, Showtime, Neeb, Clem, and Reynor really don't even amount to a single GSL win, where players don't even have to contend with Clem, Reynor, and Serral??? LOL
The clear pro-Kr bias of some people is actually insane.
Calm down champ. Zerg has been OP for nearly the entire duration of time from 2018 til now; the same amount of time Protoss has been underpowered. Tournament results clearly show this. Not hard to be the GOAT when you are only competing against 2 races during your period of dominance....
We were comparing two zergs' careers, and you're talking about...balance...
Yeah I must have imagined seeing Maru's (or any other Terran's) name across these 6 pages of discussion. And I was talking about IMBAlance...
I think he's easily going down as the best ZvP player of all time as well. It's not even really a question in my mind.
I like the rest of your post but this is actually a huge mistatement. Rogue actually had *remarkably* bad ZvP. I checked this on Aligulac a year back or so, but he actually has a losing win rate (sub 50) against the top tosses from like 2019 onwards or something like that (Zest, Trap, Stats, e.g.)
But he knew how to win in big tournaments and everyone remembers him just absolutely crushing tosses in finals, which created a myth he was generally great at ZvP. No. He was great at finals.
It's Serral who has the best ZvP of all time.
I thought so too but in the stats Miz posted Rogues ZvP map winrate offline vs koreans is only 1.3% lower than Serrals
But this doesn't even mean that much to me because a huge chunk of rogues prime took place during the pandemic, when every tournament was online for like a year and a half. Why are we excluding that? And the offline only stat maybe has more value pre 2018 or so, but major international online tournaments are pretty much the bedrock of modern SC2 for the past six five years or so. Again, weird to exclude.
And I suppose for whatever it's worth maybe you can't say Rogue had bad ZVP considering his offline results. But I'm definitely never going to call someone "the best ZvP of all time" who literally has sub 50% win rates against the best toss players overall.
Because none of Rogue's championships were in the online era, except one GSL that was offline anyway. His legendary run was 2017-18, he then won the 2020 WC and GSLs in 19, 20, 21, and 22.
You can read in the article that Rogue had an almost Serral -like winrate Vs top protoss players offline. Which accounts for almost every relavent event. Even adjusting for including online (which includes mostly irrelevant tournaments) his winrate is still 66% from 2017 onwards against protoss.
I don't know where you're getting this idea of sub-50% from.
I’ve been noodling away on Aligulac, bemoaning my lack of a desktop PC in lieu of a phone! I’m unsure where 50% is coming from :S
Anyway picking an arbitrary cutoff, January 1st 2017, offline only, South Korean opposition:
Serral is 72–35[\i] (67.29%) in games and 27–8(77.14%) in matches.
Rogue is 147–76(65.92%) in games and 52–21(71.23%) in matches.
Bear in mind that Serral is only playing Korean Toss players good enough to make the big offline events, where Rogue has more opportunity to play the lesser Korean Toss in early GSL rounds. Also, as per my previous stat dump, the Covid-induced offline premier period really makes it difficult to filter easily to do a direct Premier tournament comparison.
Filtering for offline online cuts out some big, big online tournaments, but dropping the filter introduces a bunch of way less prestigious tournaments.
Even on that data, with the aforementioned caveats Serral is still ahead, and I’d wager he’d be even further ahead if we’re counting premier online tournaments.
Rogue’s numbers bear out that he is a ZvP monster, just Serral is [i]the ZvP monster.
I just hope someone reads this and my previous stats dump as my god trying to do this on a phone is tortuous :p
Who are these korean protoss players that Rogue is facing offline which aren't good enough to make the big offline events? That was maybe a thing in the Kespa era but nowadays korean Protoss players that are still active are able to make the big offline events. Creator and Zoun are probably the 'worst' ones in recent years and Serral was facing both in offline events.
Ever heard of legendary Korean Protoss players like Hurricane, Patience, Super, Yeri, JYP, Dandy, Billowy, YB?
Just from some quick search on Aligulac with filters of offline Korean Protoss Rogue has played against since 2017
Ah, I see I forgot GSL qualifiers are offline and there are some no-names in there. Hurricane though when he still played, faced and beat Serral at IEM Katowice (2019?) so he's not a good example
There are people thinking Serral's 90 offline matches against Korean Protoss is not enough sample size, and there are people thinking Hurricane's one bo3 win over Serral is enough sample size.
ssmple size for what? Like Fango said, it was just a comment about how Hurricane doesn't deserve to be listed among the other players as some throwaway player as he was pretty legit (Patience probably doesn't either he made a HSC finals)
On February 28 2024 06:45 Captain Peabody wrote: Rogue has the honor of being perhaps my most hated player ever--who I eventually learned to appreciate, perhaps even in a way to love. (After all, the closest thing to love is often hatred.) I'm a sucker for narratives, tryhards, underdogs, and Protoss: the things Rogue seemed to exist to crush into the dirt with utter callous merciless disregard. I will never forgive him for ending soO's dream, or Trap's dream, or Trap's dream again, or herO's dream, or...
And his play certainly matched that villain mindset. I don't think I've ever been more disgusted with the game of Starcraft, nay, the whole RTS genre, nay, videogaming itself, than in that one final (iirc against Trap) where he just shamelessly abused Nydus/Swarm Host and Infested Terrans over and over and over again like the true disgusting bastard bully he is. It can be tempting to think of Rogue as a kind of super-sOs, but while sOs seemed to just enjoy playing the game as weirdly and creatively and scrappily as possible whether he won or lost, Rogue's play seemed to embody some unholy fusion of boredom, stability, laziness, and calculated cruelty.
Lest this seem too harsh, let me just say that all the above is, from a slightly different point of view, high praise indeed. There have always been the bully zergs, the villain zergs, the Patchzergs, the Idras and Nerchios and rorOs and Snipers of this world. Yet none of them ever honed their craft or reached anywhere near Rogue's level either of skill or evil.
In the end, before he retired I admit I came to respect, even bear a sort of grudging affection for, Rogue's raw talent, his skill, his dedication to his own monstrously evil Way, his brilliance in carrying out that Way, even his laziness in refusing to ever do anything else or practice when he couldn't inflict maximum cruelty by so doing.
So I salute the bastard; I praise him. We will never see his like again.
Beautifully put, and as you say, taking nothing away from Rogue.
When, against my better judgement I aligned my sleep schedule to watch Trap playing Rogue in that final live, knowing my boy would probably lose, it didn’t stop that visceral feeling of anger as one of the greatest to not win a Starleague was denied via brutal swarm host nydus.
I imagine it’s how Maru fans felt as he was denied that G5L at the time by roaches, so many roaches. And as a neutral I was like ‘fuck sake I set my schedule to catch this hoping for a classic series!’
And so on and so forth.
Serral does his thing and like, outside the most myopic it’s sort of that ‘fuck fair play, guy’s just too good’, he certainly lacks that villainry that Rogue brought to the table!
On February 28 2024 06:45 Captain Peabody wrote: Rogue has the honor of being perhaps my most hated player ever--who I eventually learned to appreciate, perhaps even in a way to love. (After all, the closest thing to love is often hatred.) I'm a sucker for narratives, tryhards, underdogs, and Protoss: the things Rogue seemed to exist to crush into the dirt with utter callous merciless disregard. I will never forgive him for ending soO's dream, or Trap's dream, or Trap's dream again, or herO's dream, or...
And his play certainly matched that villain mindset. I don't think I've ever been more disgusted with the game of Starcraft, nay, the whole RTS genre, nay, videogaming itself, than in that one final (iirc against Trap) where he just shamelessly abused Nydus/Swarm Host and Infested Terrans over and over and over again like the true disgusting bastard bully he is. It can be tempting to think of Rogue as a kind of super-sOs, but while sOs seemed to just enjoy playing the game as weirdly and creatively and scrappily as possible whether he won or lost, Rogue's play seemed to embody some unholy fusion of boredom, stability, laziness, and calculated cruelty.
Lest this seem too harsh, let me just say that all the above is, from a slightly different point of view, high praise indeed. There have always been the bully zergs, the villain zergs, the Patchzergs, the Idras and Nerchios and rorOs and Snipers of this world. Yet none of them ever honed their craft or reached anywhere near Rogue's level either of skill or evil.
In the end, before he retired I admit I came to respect, even bear a sort of grudging affection for, Rogue's raw talent, his skill, his dedication to his own monstrously evil Way, his brilliance in carrying out that Way, even his laziness in refusing to ever do anything else or practice when he couldn't inflict maximum cruelty by so doing.
So I salute the bastard; I praise him. We will never see his like again.
So true, when you watch Rogue tearing people up in matches, you could see a bit of malice behind the play. And you look at his face, he looks so completely detached from it all as well. If anything it does seem like he may have a good poker face similar to Maru who show barely any emotions win or lose. I admit it was fun to dislike Rogue for how dominant and how callous his play can be, but like you I too grew to respect and even enjoy his dominance.
Poor Dark, I seriously doubt he's showing up on this list even though he does deserve at least a spot in the top 10. I really doubt he'll supplant Maru or Serral for the inevitable #2 and #1 spots.
On February 27 2024 12:09 JJH777 wrote: It is interesting to wonder what else Rogue would have won if not for military. Many have pointed out that he seems like the exact type of player that would kill the fun Oliveira run. Seems very likely he would have won at least 1 more GSL as well and wouldn't have been surprised to see him pick up another random online or smaller weekend event.
Also just how few offline series Reynor/Serral have played vs Koreans always surprises me. I can't believe Serral has only played 35 matches vs Korean Protoss in 7 full years of being at the top of SC2. Even crazier that Reynor is only at 20 since he even went to Korea twice and only peaked 1 years later. Had to go double check both because of how surprised I was. Recently I've been thinking Serral's the goat but seeing just how little he had to play Koreans offline for his results reminds me why I'm still not sure he truly deserves that title. Non-Koreans were just given every possible advantage in most online events, including start time, ping, and groups I can't think of those as very valuable premiers.
The classic coping excuses ping, schedule, jet lag
Koreans are just not as good as you think they are. Then again, Maru already admits that Serral makes him look like a bronze player
Back to topic, I would have rogue higher than Maru, rogue accomplish were far more impressive than Maru. Maru only has his “weak GSLs victories”, literally had to wait for his KR peers to get older or leave for military
User was warned for this post
Also didn’t know Dark struggled that much in BO7 series
You're a terrible troll and a dummy.
"Koreans not as good etc" Yea ok, that's why 9 of the top 10 will be Korean.
And you would know about coping wouldn't you? Must have been hard watching sc2 until Serral came along. Serral is an outlier. If Korean's aren't that good, then the rest of the world is horrible.
That one who made the scene (as of 2024), The Last Hope of Korea, and The Zerg-Grandpa broodlord to all of his descendants. Sparring the champions since forever.
There is a dark place for Dark in our hearts always, no matter how the history is or will be written. Now and thereafter.
On February 27 2024 23:56 Charoisaur wrote: [quote] I thought so too but in the stats Miz posted Rogues ZvP map winrate offline vs koreans is only 1.3% lower than Serrals
But this doesn't even mean that much to me because a huge chunk of rogues prime took place during the pandemic, when every tournament was online for like a year and a half. Why are we excluding that? And the offline only stat maybe has more value pre 2018 or so, but major international online tournaments are pretty much the bedrock of modern SC2 for the past six five years or so. Again, weird to exclude.
And I suppose for whatever it's worth maybe you can't say Rogue had bad ZVP considering his offline results. But I'm definitely never going to call someone "the best ZvP of all time" who literally has sub 50% win rates against the best toss players overall.
Because none of Rogue's championships were in the online era, except one GSL that was offline anyway. His legendary run was 2017-18, he then won the 2020 WC and GSLs in 19, 20, 21, and 22.
You can read in the article that Rogue had an almost Serral -like winrate Vs top protoss players offline. Which accounts for almost every relavent event. Even adjusting for including online (which includes mostly irrelevant tournaments) his winrate is still 66% from 2017 onwards against protoss.
I don't know where you're getting this idea of sub-50% from.
I’ve been noodling away on Aligulac, bemoaning my lack of a desktop PC in lieu of a phone! I’m unsure where 50% is coming from :S
Anyway picking an arbitrary cutoff, January 1st 2017, offline only, South Korean opposition:
Serral is 72–35[\i] (67.29%) in games and 27–8(77.14%) in matches.
Rogue is 147–76(65.92%) in games and 52–21(71.23%) in matches.
Bear in mind that Serral is only playing Korean Toss players good enough to make the big offline events, where Rogue has more opportunity to play the lesser Korean Toss in early GSL rounds. Also, as per my previous stat dump, the Covid-induced offline premier period really makes it difficult to filter easily to do a direct Premier tournament comparison.
Filtering for offline online cuts out some big, big online tournaments, but dropping the filter introduces a bunch of way less prestigious tournaments.
Even on that data, with the aforementioned caveats Serral is still ahead, and I’d wager he’d be even further ahead if we’re counting premier online tournaments.
Rogue’s numbers bear out that he is a ZvP monster, just Serral is [i]the ZvP monster.
I just hope someone reads this and my previous stats dump as my god trying to do this on a phone is tortuous :p
Who are these korean protoss players that Rogue is facing offline which aren't good enough to make the big offline events? That was maybe a thing in the Kespa era but nowadays korean Protoss players that are still active are able to make the big offline events. Creator and Zoun are probably the 'worst' ones in recent years and Serral was facing both in offline events.
Ever heard of legendary Korean Protoss players like Hurricane, Patience, Super, Yeri, JYP, Dandy, Billowy, YB?
Just from some quick search on Aligulac with filters of offline Korean Protoss Rogue has played against since 2017
Ah, I see I forgot GSL qualifiers are offline and there are some no-names in there. Hurricane though when he still played, faced and beat Serral at IEM Katowice (2019?) so he's not a good example
There are people thinking Serral's 90 offline matches against Korean Protoss is not enough sample size, and there are people thinking Hurricane's one bo3 win over Serral is enough sample size.
Yeah, because one is for people saying Serral's 90 match sample size isn't enough compared to Rogue's 400 when comparing them as the greatest players ever.
Meanwhile the comment about Hurricane is just giving an example of how he isn't a throwaway player. No one is putting Hurricane on a GOAT list
Serral has a better record, against better players, has by a distance the all time peak ZvP on Aligulac, the best win rate in the matchup overall, the best win rate in the matchup versus purely Korean players.
Sure Rogue can match up very well in a GOAT shootout by virtue of many clutch performances and his trophy cabinet.
In a best ZvP shootout he really just can’t, along basically any metric you go off.
Well this I don't quite understand.
Rogue has an argument for being the GOAT, and almost all of his wins come from one matchup, yet you think he doesn't have an argument for being the best in that matchup?
Even if we're just talking stats, Serral isn't actually that far ahead...
ZvP record offline (against Korean) from 2017-2024 Serral: 72-35 (67%), 27-8 (77%) Rogue: 147-76 (66%), 52-21 (71%)
Rogue sports nearly as good a win% as Serral while playing over TWICE as much. Is that not more impressive? You can get arbitrary and say Serral played a slightly tougher on average opponent (he still has guys like Hurricane and Zoun in there mind), but then Rogue had to prepare for twice as many matches and still hit such a winrate.
Now, if you're looking past the flat statistics like that anyway, then there's others that go in favour of Rogue.
ZvP finals. Serral is 2-0, Rogue is 7-0. Surely you weight finals as more important than any other match? Extend that to ro4+finals, Serral is 6-3 (67%). Rogue is 8-2 (80%).
And I'll throw in some history changing ZvP matches mentioned in the Rogue highlight thread.
Classic won SSL S2 2015, was eliminated by Rogue next season Rain won GSL S2 2015, was eliminated by Rogue next season herO won SSL S3 2015, lost game 7 in the Proleague playoffs to Rogue the following week Zest won GSL S1 2016 and lost not one but two Proleague ace matches to Rogue right before and right after
He was ruining the best protoss players dreams while they were in their primes, years before he was even a championship contender.
On February 27 2024 12:09 JJH777 wrote: It is interesting to wonder what else Rogue would have won if not for military. Many have pointed out that he seems like the exact type of player that would kill the fun Oliveira run. Seems very likely he would have won at least 1 more GSL as well and wouldn't have been surprised to see him pick up another random online or smaller weekend event.
Also just how few offline series Reynor/Serral have played vs Koreans always surprises me. I can't believe Serral has only played 35 matches vs Korean Protoss in 7 full years of being at the top of SC2. Even crazier that Reynor is only at 20 since he even went to Korea twice and only peaked 1 years later. Had to go double check both because of how surprised I was. Recently I've been thinking Serral's the goat but seeing just how little he had to play Koreans offline for his results reminds me why I'm still not sure he truly deserves that title. Non-Koreans were just given every possible advantage in most online events, including start time, ping, and groups I can't think of those as very valuable premiers.
The classic coping excuses ping, schedule, jet lag
Koreans are just not as good as you think they are. Then again, Maru already admits that Serral makes him look like a bronze player
Back to topic, I would have rogue higher than Maru, rogue accomplish were far more impressive than Maru. Maru only has his “weak GSLs victories”, literally had to wait for his KR peers to get older or leave for military
User was warned for this post
Also didn’t know Dark struggled that much in BO7 series
You're a terrible troll and a dummy.
"Koreans not as good etc" Yea ok, that's why 9 of the top 10 will be Korean.
And you would know about coping wouldn't you? Must have been hard watching sc2 until Serral came along. Serral is an outlier. If Korean's aren't that good, then the rest of the world is horrible.
You obviously have some hate towards Koreans.
Why you raging kiddo?
I’m just stating fact KR isn’t as good as Serral for years now
Sorry I’m not you who apparently hate the idea that Foreigners being better than KR. I enjoyed the low skilled WOL era but highly entertaining clown fiesta games
I’ll admit HOTS was when the entertainment were quite bad (dark age) with the swarm host, mass ravens, cancer widow mines.
I could care less who’s the best whether it’s KR or foreigner. As long as their games are entertaining me. If not, I just move on and watch/do something else that’s more entertaining.
FYI I always tune in for Has games. Cause I know it’s going to be highly entertaining good/bad
Just like I come to the forum to read funny coping/excuses comments from both side of the argument
For everyone hoping for Dark to be included in the top 10 (myself included), I thought it was already somewhat spoiled that he didn't make the list when we found out that MVP did. Can't remember what specific set of words that I read, but unless it was a reading comprehension issue, that was the impression that I got.
Agree or disagree, I love that this series has provoked some passionate discussions since I can't remember the last time these forums were so active lol. To me, the cardinal sins of this list were placing MVP above INno, and not including Dark at all (even if I misremembered what I read earlier, I can't imagine him being placed above Rogue and we all know who the top 2 spots will be unless it's some sort of gimmicky tie). At least, as Winter puts it, Dark is the best player in the world according to Dark and that's what really matters.
On February 28 2024 10:35 Kitai wrote: For everyone hoping for Dark to be included in the top 10 (myself included), I thought it was already somewhat spoiled that he didn't make the list when we found out that MVP did. Can't remember what specific set of words that I read, but unless it was a reading comprehension issue, that was the impression that I got.
Agree or disagree, I love that this series has provoked some passionate discussions since I can't remember the last time these forums were so active lol. To me, the cardinal sins of this list were placing MVP above INno, and not including Dark at all (even if I misremembered what I read earlier, I can't imagine him being placed above Rogue and we all know who the top 2 spots will be unless it's some sort of gimmicky tie). At least, as Winter puts it, Dark is the best player in the world according to Dark and that's what really matters.
Yeah Miz said something along those lines in the comments of it. He'll write a blog about it, but the list is set in stone.
On February 21 2024 06:15 TheDougler wrote: First of all Miz, excellent work. Your writing is so fun to read as always.
The quasi-confirmation that Dark didn't make the top 10 really surpised me though. Let's look at the comparison to Rain, specifically.
Notable tournament finishes (Rain): 2012 WCS Asia: 1st place 2012 OnGameNet Starleague: 1st place 2013 OnGameNet Starleague: 2nd place 2013 GSL Hot6ix Cup: 1st place 2015 IEM San Jose: 2nd place 2015 Code S Season 2: 1st place 2015 HomeStory Cup 11: 1st place
Notable Tournament Finishes (Dark): 2016 Code S Season 1: 1st Place 2016 WCS Korea: 1st Place 2016 WCS Global Championships: 2nd Place 2019 GSL Code S Season 2: 1st Place 2019 GSL AfreecaTV Super Tournament 2: 1st Place 2019 WCS Global Finals: 1st Place 2020 Teamliquid StarLeague 6: 1st Place 2021 GSL Season 2: 1st Place 2022 GSL Afreeka TV Super Tournament 1: 2nd Place 2023 GSL Code S Season 2: 2nd Place
There's plenty of other tournaments, including premier tournaments that Dark placed in the top 4 of that I haven't even mentioned above.
I simply cannot see a logic behind including Rain but not him. Heck, I'm not sure that TY even deserves his spot above Dark. Let's look at the justification of that:
The Placement
TY and #10 player Rain are similar for their consistent, high-level play in Korean Individual Leagues, and their list of top-four finishes is very similar (TY: 2x first place, 2x second place, 2x RO4 finishes // Rain: 2x first place, 1x second place, 3x RO4).
However, TY gets the nod for ninth place by surpassing Rain in a couple of key areas. The biggest differentiating factor was TY's results in world championship-tier tournaments—TY won both IEM and WESG, while Rain's best result was top 3 at BWC/WCS 2012. Also, TY's stretch of consistently great domestic play lasted for five years, compared to Rain's three and a half. Overall, TY was the obvious choice to slot in right ahead of Rain.
Okay, so let's look at top four finishes in Korean Individual Leagues, and world championship tournaments. Fortunately, Miz already did the math for us:
Korean Individual Leagues: TY: 2x first place, 2x second place, 2x RO4 Rain: 2x first place, 1x second place, 3x RO4 Dark: 2x first place, 3x second place, 4x RO4.
So, equal number of first places, but more consistent finals and semi-finals appearances for Dark. Let's look at world championship events:
TY: 1st Place IEM 2017, 1st Place WESG 2017 Rain: 3rd Place BWC/WCS 2012 Dark: 1st Place WCS 2019, 2nd Place WCS Global Championships 2016
Here we see that the logic that places TY above Rain unquestionably puts Dark above Rain as well. So, what gives?
Could it be that Dark's winrate against fellow S-tier competition is much poorer (which I don't have the statistics for, but feel like could certainly be the case)?
I don't think it's that either, as Miz notes Dark's impressive win-rate against TY:
From what I can read from the TY article, it's mostly this 3% lower overall win-rate in Korean Individual Leagues, despite having the more impressive record in terms of Top4+ appearences in those leagues when compared to TY:
TY's consistent strength is also apparent in his overall win-loss record in Korean Individual Leagues. From the start of LotV up until his military service, he was neck-and-neck with Maru in terms of having the best statistics. TY's map win-rate of 64.9% (170W-92L) was slightly head of Maru's 63.8% (166W-94L), while his series win-rate of 69.8% (60W-26L) was second only to Maru's 73.2% (60W-22). When it comes to Dark, Stats, and Rogue, the other top players during this time frame, their win-rates all trail slightly or considerably behind TY.
We should note however, that even by that math, the match win rate (which I'd argue is more important than map win rate) is even closer.
Heck, LOOK at that consistency from Dark, the only one on that chart to qualify for every listed event in that table!
To me, there's just something not-correct about puttin Rain above Dark for the top 10, given the criteria we know about. When we look at weekenders, this becomes even more apparent, but I won't belabor that point as they're weighted lightly by the criteria we know about.
Great post and we agree on the consistency. Dark is one of the most consistent players in history (which i will go into in length during the blog).
The rain thing is a pretty easy argument for me as he was a top 3 player in hots when it came to KIL. Ignore soO and ByuL for a moment since they are a combined 0-7 in KIL finals during hots. Rain and Inno were the only players to reach 3 KIL finals in hots and no one won more than Rain (two wins).
I understand a lot of people feel differently, but if all you do is count trophies then there's no reason for a list. You just do some 1+1 basic math and there you go. The Protoss Rain played in 2013 was the best we had seen up to that point (many people try to point out how trash everyone was and how they could go back and win gsl, but I think a player deserves great credit for playing at a never before seen level. Rain was also one match from being a double royal roader (though he would have had to play life in the final), but he was also one match away from making a second final opposite ByuL in 2015). It's funny how so much hinges on so few games. I didn't entertain hypotheticals in the article
Zest had a big part in overhauling Protoss in 2014 and it's fair to say he surpassed Rain as far as peak Protoss at that point. I personally prefer 2015 Rain to 2013 Rain as I think he was a far more well rounded player and I think he raised the level again.
In the end, you could argue Rain benefitted from retirement. Unlike soO, zest, inno, dark, classic, herO, rogue etc, Rain never had a long stretch of being sub par. He was a top tier from start to finish (barring a few months in 2014) and that's a very difficult thing to accomplish.
If Rain had generated those numbers in a career as long as Maru's, I wouldn';t think much of him at all. In fact, if your primary determiner of GOAT ness is trophies and final appearances, players like Cure and Solar should be ahead of a number of players who most people would consider much better than either of them, but didn't play for 11 years and didn't have as much time to build a nice trophy collection.
Edit: Here's what he said earlier that confirmed it (more or less):
On February 21 2024 00:12 LennX wrote: Will there be a #0? Im struggling to see Dark being out of the top 10. The top 3 should already be locked in per everyone mentioning Rouge Maru Serral...
I doubt it. soO > Dark is the most peculiar thing about this ranking though, because both won their only WC when zerg was absolutely overpowered (2019) while Dark was also doing well in GSL at other times and actually won the thing. He even made top 2 in 2016 in an epic series versus ByuN, and was overall a feared opponent among foreigners and still is despite being far past his prime. Whereas soO lost to Zhugeliang and stuff, and never won a single GSL. soO literally had the game to be completely broken to be able to win a prestigious tournament, similarly to Messi getting a WC handed to him before his retirement
Along with Rain it’s probably the most debatable shout
It’s like SC2’s ultimate Kong versus, for my money probably the player who was a top, top consistent contender for the longest without winning a huge amount.
I don’t think any direction it goes is especially outrageous. Maru’s fourpeat is one of those achievements that overshadows what came before.
If memory serves, nobody had made more than 2 consecutive finals before soO, and he made 4. Maru doing what he’s done has made soO’s runs less bonkers in retrospect, but at the time they were insane.
Dark may cumulatively have slightly more top 8/4 finishes, and he made more hay in the latter stages of the scene. Equally soO had to go to military not all that long after finally casting off the Kong Kurse and missed that period where Dark and Rogue were hoovering up titles
It’s that close really I wouldn’t even expend the energy of a shoulder shrug if either made top 10 at the other’s expense.
I mean with Rain the comparison is more difficult because Rain won stuff, was a pioneer in how to play protoss his way, etc. As for soO, it’s difficult to see him there but not Dark, who was the best Zerg in the world in 2016 / 2019 and remained a top Zerg for long, while winning important tournaments.
This Dark thing is so disappointing. It's been weeks of the same argument to which I can't respond despite having way more information available to me atm than you guys. Oh well, have to wait for blog stuff and hope people would be up for a good faith discussion.
On February 28 2024 10:35 Kitai wrote: For everyone hoping for Dark to be included in the top 10 (myself included), I thought it was already somewhat spoiled that he didn't make the list when we found out that MVP did. Can't remember what specific set of words that I read, but unless it was a reading comprehension issue, that was the impression that I got.
Agree or disagree, I love that this series has provoked some passionate discussions since I can't remember the last time these forums were so active lol. To me, the cardinal sins of this list were placing MVP above INno, and not including Dark at all (even if I misremembered what I read earlier, I can't imagine him being placed above Rogue and we all know who the top 2 spots will be unless it's some sort of gimmicky tie). At least, as Winter puts it, Dark is the best player in the world according to Dark and that's what really matters.
Yeah Miz said something along those lines in the comments of it. He'll write a blog about it, but the list is set in stone.
On February 21 2024 06:15 TheDougler wrote: First of all Miz, excellent work. Your writing is so fun to read as always.
The quasi-confirmation that Dark didn't make the top 10 really surpised me though. Let's look at the comparison to Rain, specifically.
Notable tournament finishes (Rain): 2012 WCS Asia: 1st place 2012 OnGameNet Starleague: 1st place 2013 OnGameNet Starleague: 2nd place 2013 GSL Hot6ix Cup: 1st place 2015 IEM San Jose: 2nd place 2015 Code S Season 2: 1st place 2015 HomeStory Cup 11: 1st place
Notable Tournament Finishes (Dark): 2016 Code S Season 1: 1st Place 2016 WCS Korea: 1st Place 2016 WCS Global Championships: 2nd Place 2019 GSL Code S Season 2: 1st Place 2019 GSL AfreecaTV Super Tournament 2: 1st Place 2019 WCS Global Finals: 1st Place 2020 Teamliquid StarLeague 6: 1st Place 2021 GSL Season 2: 1st Place 2022 GSL Afreeka TV Super Tournament 1: 2nd Place 2023 GSL Code S Season 2: 2nd Place
There's plenty of other tournaments, including premier tournaments that Dark placed in the top 4 of that I haven't even mentioned above.
I simply cannot see a logic behind including Rain but not him. Heck, I'm not sure that TY even deserves his spot above Dark. Let's look at the justification of that:
The Placement
TY and #10 player Rain are similar for their consistent, high-level play in Korean Individual Leagues, and their list of top-four finishes is very similar (TY: 2x first place, 2x second place, 2x RO4 finishes // Rain: 2x first place, 1x second place, 3x RO4).
However, TY gets the nod for ninth place by surpassing Rain in a couple of key areas. The biggest differentiating factor was TY's results in world championship-tier tournaments—TY won both IEM and WESG, while Rain's best result was top 3 at BWC/WCS 2012. Also, TY's stretch of consistently great domestic play lasted for five years, compared to Rain's three and a half. Overall, TY was the obvious choice to slot in right ahead of Rain.
Okay, so let's look at top four finishes in Korean Individual Leagues, and world championship tournaments. Fortunately, Miz already did the math for us:
Korean Individual Leagues: TY: 2x first place, 2x second place, 2x RO4 Rain: 2x first place, 1x second place, 3x RO4 Dark: 2x first place, 3x second place, 4x RO4.
So, equal number of first places, but more consistent finals and semi-finals appearances for Dark. Let's look at world championship events:
TY: 1st Place IEM 2017, 1st Place WESG 2017 Rain: 3rd Place BWC/WCS 2012 Dark: 1st Place WCS 2019, 2nd Place WCS Global Championships 2016
Here we see that the logic that places TY above Rain unquestionably puts Dark above Rain as well. So, what gives?
Could it be that Dark's winrate against fellow S-tier competition is much poorer (which I don't have the statistics for, but feel like could certainly be the case)?
I don't think it's that either, as Miz notes Dark's impressive win-rate against TY:
From what I can read from the TY article, it's mostly this 3% lower overall win-rate in Korean Individual Leagues, despite having the more impressive record in terms of Top4+ appearences in those leagues when compared to TY:
TY's consistent strength is also apparent in his overall win-loss record in Korean Individual Leagues. From the start of LotV up until his military service, he was neck-and-neck with Maru in terms of having the best statistics. TY's map win-rate of 64.9% (170W-92L) was slightly head of Maru's 63.8% (166W-94L), while his series win-rate of 69.8% (60W-26L) was second only to Maru's 73.2% (60W-22). When it comes to Dark, Stats, and Rogue, the other top players during this time frame, their win-rates all trail slightly or considerably behind TY.
We should note however, that even by that math, the match win rate (which I'd argue is more important than map win rate) is even closer.
Heck, LOOK at that consistency from Dark, the only one on that chart to qualify for every listed event in that table!
To me, there's just something not-correct about puttin Rain above Dark for the top 10, given the criteria we know about. When we look at weekenders, this becomes even more apparent, but I won't belabor that point as they're weighted lightly by the criteria we know about.
Great post and we agree on the consistency. Dark is one of the most consistent players in history (which i will go into in length during the blog).
The rain thing is a pretty easy argument for me as he was a top 3 player in hots when it came to KIL. Ignore soO and ByuL for a moment since they are a combined 0-7 in KIL finals during hots. Rain and Inno were the only players to reach 3 KIL finals in hots and no one won more than Rain (two wins).
I understand a lot of people feel differently, but if all you do is count trophies then there's no reason for a list. You just do some 1+1 basic math and there you go. The Protoss Rain played in 2013 was the best we had seen up to that point (many people try to point out how trash everyone was and how they could go back and win gsl, but I think a player deserves great credit for playing at a never before seen level. Rain was also one match from being a double royal roader (though he would have had to play life in the final), but he was also one match away from making a second final opposite ByuL in 2015). It's funny how so much hinges on so few games. I didn't entertain hypotheticals in the article
Zest had a big part in overhauling Protoss in 2014 and it's fair to say he surpassed Rain as far as peak Protoss at that point. I personally prefer 2015 Rain to 2013 Rain as I think he was a far more well rounded player and I think he raised the level again.
In the end, you could argue Rain benefitted from retirement. Unlike soO, zest, inno, dark, classic, herO, rogue etc, Rain never had a long stretch of being sub par. He was a top tier from start to finish (barring a few months in 2014) and that's a very difficult thing to accomplish.
If Rain had generated those numbers in a career as long as Maru's, I wouldn';t think much of him at all. In fact, if your primary determiner of GOAT ness is trophies and final appearances, players like Cure and Solar should be ahead of a number of players who most people would consider much better than either of them, but didn't play for 11 years and didn't have as much time to build a nice trophy collection.
Edit: Here's what he said earlier that confirmed it (more or less):
On February 21 2024 00:12 LennX wrote: Will there be a #0? Im struggling to see Dark being out of the top 10. The top 3 should already be locked in per everyone mentioning Rouge Maru Serral...
I doubt it. soO > Dark is the most peculiar thing about this ranking though, because both won their only WC when zerg was absolutely overpowered (2019) while Dark was also doing well in GSL at other times and actually won the thing. He even made top 2 in 2016 in an epic series versus ByuN, and was overall a feared opponent among foreigners and still is despite being far past his prime. Whereas soO lost to Zhugeliang and stuff, and never won a single GSL. soO literally had the game to be completely broken to be able to win a prestigious tournament, similarly to Messi getting a WC handed to him before his retirement
Along with Rain it’s probably the most debatable shout
It’s like SC2’s ultimate Kong versus, for my money probably the player who was a top, top consistent contender for the longest without winning a huge amount.
I don’t think any direction it goes is especially outrageous. Maru’s fourpeat is one of those achievements that overshadows what came before.
If memory serves, nobody had made more than 2 consecutive finals before soO, and he made 4. Maru doing what he’s done has made soO’s runs less bonkers in retrospect, but at the time they were insane.
Dark may cumulatively have slightly more top 8/4 finishes, and he made more hay in the latter stages of the scene. Equally soO had to go to military not all that long after finally casting off the Kong Kurse and missed that period where Dark and Rogue were hoovering up titles
It’s that close really I wouldn’t even expend the energy of a shoulder shrug if either made top 10 at the other’s expense.
I mean with Rain the comparison is more difficult because Rain won stuff, was a pioneer in how to play protoss his way, etc. As for soO, it’s difficult to see him there but not Dark, who was the best Zerg in the world in 2016 / 2019 and remained a top Zerg for long, while winning important tournaments.
This Dark thing is so disappointing. It's been weeks of the same argument to which I can't respond despite having way more information available to me atm than you guys. Oh well, have to wait for blog stuff and hope people would be up for a good faith discussion.
That's what I was thinking of! Thanks for finding it. Also thanks for putting in so much effort defending Dark's honor =P
But this doesn't even mean that much to me because a huge chunk of rogues prime took place during the pandemic, when every tournament was online for like a year and a half. Why are we excluding that? And the offline only stat maybe has more value pre 2018 or so, but major international online tournaments are pretty much the bedrock of modern SC2 for the past six five years or so. Again, weird to exclude.
And I suppose for whatever it's worth maybe you can't say Rogue had bad ZVP considering his offline results. But I'm definitely never going to call someone "the best ZvP of all time" who literally has sub 50% win rates against the best toss players overall.
Because none of Rogue's championships were in the online era, except one GSL that was offline anyway. His legendary run was 2017-18, he then won the 2020 WC and GSLs in 19, 20, 21, and 22.
You can read in the article that Rogue had an almost Serral -like winrate Vs top protoss players offline. Which accounts for almost every relavent event. Even adjusting for including online (which includes mostly irrelevant tournaments) his winrate is still 66% from 2017 onwards against protoss.
I don't know where you're getting this idea of sub-50% from.
I’ve been noodling away on Aligulac, bemoaning my lack of a desktop PC in lieu of a phone! I’m unsure where 50% is coming from :S
Anyway picking an arbitrary cutoff, January 1st 2017, offline only, South Korean opposition:
Serral is 72–35[\i] (67.29%) in games and 27–8(77.14%) in matches.
Rogue is 147–76(65.92%) in games and 52–21(71.23%) in matches.
Bear in mind that Serral is only playing Korean Toss players good enough to make the big offline events, where Rogue has more opportunity to play the lesser Korean Toss in early GSL rounds. Also, as per my previous stat dump, the Covid-induced offline premier period really makes it difficult to filter easily to do a direct Premier tournament comparison.
Filtering for offline online cuts out some big, big online tournaments, but dropping the filter introduces a bunch of way less prestigious tournaments.
Even on that data, with the aforementioned caveats Serral is still ahead, and I’d wager he’d be even further ahead if we’re counting premier online tournaments.
Rogue’s numbers bear out that he is a ZvP monster, just Serral is [i]the ZvP monster.
I just hope someone reads this and my previous stats dump as my god trying to do this on a phone is tortuous :p
Who are these korean protoss players that Rogue is facing offline which aren't good enough to make the big offline events? That was maybe a thing in the Kespa era but nowadays korean Protoss players that are still active are able to make the big offline events. Creator and Zoun are probably the 'worst' ones in recent years and Serral was facing both in offline events.
Ever heard of legendary Korean Protoss players like Hurricane, Patience, Super, Yeri, JYP, Dandy, Billowy, YB?
Just from some quick search on Aligulac with filters of offline Korean Protoss Rogue has played against since 2017
Ah, I see I forgot GSL qualifiers are offline and there are some no-names in there. Hurricane though when he still played, faced and beat Serral at IEM Katowice (2019?) so he's not a good example
There are people thinking Serral's 90 offline matches against Korean Protoss is not enough sample size, and there are people thinking Hurricane's one bo3 win over Serral is enough sample size.
Yeah, because one is for people saying Serral's 90 match sample size isn't enough compared to Rogue's 400 when comparing them as the greatest players ever.
Meanwhile the comment about Hurricane is just giving an example of how he isn't a throwaway player. No one is putting Hurricane on a GOAT list
Serral has a better record, against better players, has by a distance the all time peak ZvP on Aligulac, the best win rate in the matchup overall, the best win rate in the matchup versus purely Korean players.
Sure Rogue can match up very well in a GOAT shootout by virtue of many clutch performances and his trophy cabinet.
In a best ZvP shootout he really just can’t, along basically any metric you go off.
Well this I don't quite understand.
Rogue has an argument for being the GOAT, and almost all of his wins come from one matchup, yet you think he doesn't have an argument for being the best in that matchup?
Even if we're just talking stats, Serral isn't actually that far ahead...
ZvP record offline (against Korean) from 2017-2024 Serral: 72-35 (67%), 27-8 (77%) Rogue: 147-76 (66%), 52-21 (71%)
Rogue sports nearly as good a win% as Serral while playing over TWICE as much. Is that not more impressive? You can get arbitrary and say Serral played a slightly tougher on average opponent (he still has guys like Hurricane and Zoun in there mind), but then Rogue had to prepare for twice as many matches and still hit such a winrate.
Now, if you're looking past the flat statistics like that anyway, then there's others that go in favour of Rogue.
ZvP finals. Serral is 2-0, Rogue is 7-0. Surely you weight finals as more important than any other match? Extend that to ro4+finals, Serral is 6-3 (67%). Rogue is 8-2 (80%).
And I'll throw in some history changing ZvP matches mentioned in the Rogue highlight thread.
Classic won SSL S2 2015, was eliminated by Rogue next season Rain won GSL S2 2015, was eliminated by Rogue next season herO won SSL S3 2015, lost game 7 in the Proleague playoffs to Rogue the following week Zest won GSL S1 2016 and lost not one but two Proleague ace matches to Rogue right before and right after
He was ruining the best protoss players dreams while they were in their primes, years before he was even a championship contender.
How is it arbitrary to look at relative opponent strength but it’s not arbitrary to single out finals and Ro4s?
Anyway Serral’s record in finals alone vs my beloved but long-suffering Protoss is not too shabby.
2018 GSL VS the world Serral 4-3 Stats 2018 WCS Global Finals Serral 4-2 Stats 2020 Dreamhack Masters Summer Serral 4-2 Trap 2020 Dreamhack Masters Winter Serral 4-2 Stats 2021 Dreamhack Masters Last Chance Serral 3-4 Trap 2021 Dreamhack Masters Fall Serral 4-0 Trap 2024 Masters Colosseum Serral 5-1 herO
Not sure if I’ve even got every Premier final there, but it isn’t too shabby really, and considering Serral has made quite a few more finals than Rogue, even excluding WCS Europe entirely it’s not really his fault that Protoss players aren’t running the gauntlet to face him more regularly.
I think Rogue has many of those intangibles that define greatness, and is probably the most clutch player we’ve seen when he’s on it, but overall Serral’s ZvP is stronger on almost every metric going.
I mean Rogue’s ZvP is also elite, and at times more sexy than Serral’s sure, so it’s nothing against him. He’s competing against IMO the best single matchup anyone has ever had in this game.
Rogue, is the best player I have encountered. Just love everything about him, his villianism (some like to gaslight about him while some may appreciates his art of playing in unorthodox ways), his mannerism personality, his madness, his poker face, his final BO7 records, his complete stomp of herO, Maru, Serral, Classic, Zest, Stats and Trap in final BO7 matches ended up incurring wrath from his opponents' fans and also everyone riding on casters' bias.
I am completely immersed in Sc2 story lines after he thrashed herO in final of IEM Shanghai, followed him and supported him all the ways till he retired (maybe for good?) last two years. Therefore, I didn't actively participate the forum discussions since then because I felt completely devastated after knowing he couldn't play anymore. No person ever can be like him. He is my ultimate bias. Thank you for all the memories he gave me during 2017-2022.
Farewell.
Note: I know Mizenhaur will definitely put Serral above him in this ranking which I disagrees the most, so as much as I love this piece in comparison with Mizenhaur's old post about him (please refer: https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/530039-the-emperor-has-no-clothes-rogues-future-legacy), I will disdain myself from commenting further. Let Serral fans enjoy whatever they may have to write after the no.1 name would be announced in the next few days onward.
On February 28 2024 13:59 swarminfestor wrote: Rogue, is the best player I have encountered. Just love everything about him, his villianism (some like to gaslight about him while some may appreciates his art of playing in unorthodox ways), his mannerism personality, his madness, his poker face, his final BO7 records, his complete stomp of herO, Maru, Serral, Classic, Zest, Stats and Trap in final BO7 matches ended up incurring wrath from his opponents' fans and also everyone riding on casters' bias.
I am completely immersed in Sc2 story lines after he thrashed herO in final of IEM Shanghai, followed him and supported him all the ways till he retired (maybe for good?) last two years. Therefore, I didn't actively participate the forum discussions since then because I felt completely devastated after knowing he couldn't play anymore. No person ever can be like him. He is my ultimate bias. Thank you for all the memories he gave me during 2017-2022.
Farewell.
Note: I know Mizenhaur will definitely put Serral above him in this ranking which I disagrees the most, so as much as I love this piece in comparison with Mizenhaur's old post about him (please refer: https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/530039-the-emperor-has-no-clothes-rogues-future-legacy), I will disdain myself from commenting further. Let Serral fans enjoy whatever they may have to write after the no.1 name would be announced in the next few days onward.
I feel really uncomfortable reading this. My abdomen hurts from the uncontrollable erratic muscle contractions. I "disdain myself" for having read this.
Edit: "Rogue & Maru fan boy. ^^" << Ah, shit...I could've saved myself the pain by reading the signature first.
On February 28 2024 13:59 swarminfestor wrote: Rogue, is the best player I have encountered. Just love everything about him, his villianism (some like to gaslight about him while some may appreciates his art of playing in unorthodox ways), his mannerism personality, his madness, his poker face, his final BO7 records, his complete stomp of herO, Maru, Serral, Classic, Zest, Stats and Trap in final BO7 matches ended up incurring wrath from his opponents' fans and also everyone riding on casters' bias.
I am completely immersed in Sc2 story lines after he thrashed herO in final of IEM Shanghai, followed him and supported him all the ways till he retired (maybe for good?) last two years. Therefore, I didn't actively participate the forum discussions since then because I felt completely devastated after knowing he couldn't play anymore. No person ever can be like him. He is my ultimate bias. Thank you for all the memories he gave me during 2017-2022.
Farewell.
Note: I know Mizenhaur will definitely put Serral above him in this ranking which I disagrees the most, so as much as I love this piece in comparison with Mizenhaur's old post about him (please refer: https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/530039-the-emperor-has-no-clothes-rogues-future-legacy), I will disdain myself from commenting further. Let Serral fans enjoy whatever they may have to write after the no.1 name would be announced in the next few days onward.
I feel really uncomfortable reading this. My abdomen hurts from the uncontrollable erratic muscle contractions. I "disdain myself" for having read this.
Edit: "Rogue & Maru fan boy. ^^" << Ah, shit...I could've saved myself the pain by reading the signature first.
A closeted Serral fan coming to disrespect other post praising the player in the article written in dedication about him while coming to the forum as newbie, what else can I say about you.
On February 28 2024 13:59 swarminfestor wrote: Rogue, is the best player I have encountered. Just love everything about him, his villianism (some like to gaslight about him while some may appreciates his art of playing in unorthodox ways), his mannerism personality, his madness, his poker face, his final BO7 records, his complete stomp of herO, Maru, Serral, Classic, Zest, Stats and Trap in final BO7 matches ended up incurring wrath from his opponents' fans and also everyone riding on casters' bias.
I am completely immersed in Sc2 story lines after he thrashed herO in final of IEM Shanghai, followed him and supported him all the ways till he retired (maybe for good?) last two years. Therefore, I didn't actively participate the forum discussions since then because I felt completely devastated after knowing he couldn't play anymore. No person ever can be like him. He is my ultimate bias. Thank you for all the memories he gave me during 2017-2022.
Farewell.
Note: I know Mizenhaur will definitely put Serral above him in this ranking which I disagrees the most, so as much as I love this piece in comparison with Mizenhaur's old post about him (please refer: https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/530039-the-emperor-has-no-clothes-rogues-future-legacy), I will disdain myself from commenting further. Let Serral fans enjoy whatever they may have to write after the no.1 name would be announced in the next few days onward.
I feel really uncomfortable reading this. My abdomen hurts from the uncontrollable erratic muscle contractions. I "disdain myself" for having read this.
Edit: "Rogue & Maru fan boy. ^^" << Ah, shit...I could've saved myself the pain by reading the signature first.
A closeted Serral fan coming to disrespect other post praising the player in the article written in dedication about him while coming to the forum as newbie, what else can I say about you.
Please don't disdain yourself from saying more about me and my villainism.
On February 27 2024 15:21 Perceivere wrote: single-handedly carried Finland to #1 in 2019 Nation Wars; homestory cups over Reynor, Clem (x2), TY, Solar, and Innovation;
Nation Wars? Homestory cups? Seriously? Marinelord AKed Korean team one time. I guess he should be the GOAT, because he's above all korean players. Oh, BTW, he also AKed Finland team in the same tournament. He carried team France to championship. So he's definitely the GOAT, no?
C'mon, adding these just weakens your point.
Wow...I don't even know what to say to you...other than that you're completely missing the point.
No one is saying that it's any one tourney that matters. Are you lost? If you think single-handedly taking a nation to win against everyone, including S Korea, and winning 7 or 8 HSCs, out of 10, were an easy feat, you are most definitely lost. Do you not understand the concept of statistical outliers? Yeah, even players like marinelord, Scarlett, and Oliveira can have a really good day. Are you going to try and put down those championship tournaments those other two won as well because they were statistical outliers? By the way, around that time, marinelord was no slouch, either.
OK, I get your point. Statistics matters, even though some of the results are less important than the others. A championship is a championship, after all. So small tournaments like Nation Wars and Homestory Cups are important, too.
Then, I'm pretty sure, the absolute GOAT must be... Dark! Look at this long list of tournaments that he won!
[...]
He won against Serral 4:0 in the final of TeamLiquid StarLeague 6, earning $6000, while Serrals winning against Clem in Homestory Cup only earned him $3500. Over all, Dark has 128 championships, while Serral only has 106! Poor Rogue only has 70, I absolutely agree that he has no chance to be the GOAT. What a Patchzerg, indeed! He was not even trying! I think I just unveiled the last two GOATs, second place: Serral and 1st place: Dark! Thank you for enlightening me, it all makes sense now.
No one is saying that GOAT is determined solely by # of tournaments won.
Perceivere listed many of Serral's smaller achievements, because he was correcting Poopi who said that "Serral won a few EU tournaments / Homestory cups that don't matter much as far as resume go".
He wasn't saying he even exactly believes each of those results are 100% as important as X other thing.
He stated his belief "No one said Taeja would be a GOAT candidate based on three HSC wins. lol It is all the accolades combined." It's fair to think that the complete resume of any player should be considered.
And then he opened up a question expressing his opinion that racking up a lot of results, even if smaller, maybe should still amount to something, perhaps a single GSL win. That's a fair opinion to have, we all weigh things differently. "Do these writers really think that eight tournaments where he had to go through players like Elazer, Heromarine, Showtime, Neeb, Clem, and Reynor really don't even amount to a single GSL win, where players don't even have to contend with Clem, Reynor, and Serral???"
On February 27 2024 15:21 Perceivere wrote: single-handedly carried Finland to #1 in 2019 Nation Wars; homestory cups over Reynor, Clem (x2), TY, Solar, and Innovation;
Nation Wars? Homestory cups? Seriously? Marinelord AKed Korean team one time. I guess he should be the GOAT, because he's above all korean players. Oh, BTW, he also AKed Finland team in the same tournament. He carried team France to championship. So he's definitely the GOAT, no?
C'mon, adding these just weakens your point.
Wow...I don't even know what to say to you...other than that you're completely missing the point.
No one is saying that it's any one tourney that matters. Are you lost? If you think single-handedly taking a nation to win against everyone, including S Korea, and winning 7 or 8 HSCs, out of 10, were an easy feat, you are most definitely lost. Do you not understand the concept of statistical outliers? Yeah, even players like marinelord, Scarlett, and Oliveira can have a really good day. Are you going to try and put down those championship tournaments those other two won as well because they were statistical outliers? By the way, around that time, marinelord was no slouch, either.
LOL maybe it was a troll account after all?
C'mon man, u gotta at least try to meet your opponents halfway on the forums—this ain't a StarCraft II match.
Say something like "Multi-kills in lower-stakes team tournaments aren't necessarily prestigious on their own, but they can reflect the ability of a player at a certain point in time. Just as INnoVation reminded us of his prowess by carrying AX-Acer to a GSTL championship, Serral did the same for Finland six years later in Nation Wars."
With all respect, I can't tell if Jy or Perceivere is the one being criticized here. Jy is heavily misconstruing Perceivere's original point, and to me is the one putting less effort to try to engage in a conversation. Even if Perceivere's posts are charged (understandably so), Jy's are as well. It's pretty hard to find a middle to meet someone at when they're just derailing the point completely into a different direction.
On February 28 2024 12:14 WombaT wrote: I think Rogue has many of those intangibles that define greatness, and is probably the most clutch player we’ve seen when he’s on it, but overall Serral’s ZvP is stronger on almost every metric going.
I mean Rogue’s ZvP is also elite, and at times more sexy than Serral’s sure, so it’s nothing against him. He’s competing against IMO the best single matchup anyone has ever had in this game.
I don't even know how to describe it, but I just love watching Rogue destroy his opponents, strategically and mentally. I have no idea how he remains so composed when he's stuffing his Ravager counterattack all-in through a Protoss wall with shield batteries, immortals, oracles, while he has 0 drones alive. Serral feels like he's mechanically superior and usually wins through just "making less mistakes", but Rogue just has those "soul reads" and "soul wins" that make me really feel the "strategy" in competitive games, and proves that Starcraft isn't just about who is faster and has higher APM. For example his 4-0 vs Maru with just mass Ravagers. I don't know enough to understand how or why it's working. But you can tell it's crushing Maru's soul haha.
EPT![[image loading]](https://i.computer-bild.de/imgs/1/4/4/2/1/3/0/3/sc2-dark-dh-masters-valencia-esl-1-2e4672ce4464a5ba.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://tl.net/staff/Waxangel/GOAT2024/TY9/chart2.png)
![[image loading]](https://tl.net/staff/Waxangel/GOAT2024/TY9/chart4.png)
![[image loading]](https://tl.net/staff/Waxangel/GOAT2024/TY9/chart3.png)
