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I know you're tired of it, but let's talk balance

Forum Index > SC2 General
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1 2 3 Next All
CicadaSC
Profile Joined January 2018
United States658 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-09-19 16:45:10
September 07 2023 15:06 GMT
#1
I don't understand why the Balance Council doesn't focus on getting Protoss in a viable state first before implementing QoL and Experimental changes. Wouldn't it be easier to test the viability of these changes in a vacuum? I feel like this is a classic example of putting the cart before the horse. While I can understand wanting to nerf the disrupter, rework the cyclone, make mech viable vs Protoss etc. that is all cool and all but why not do that, later...? I was listening to Harstem's PoV on YouTube and he mentioned he feels Protoss is fine in PvZ and the only problem with TvP is the Ghost. Cool maybe it is, I'm not here to argue that, but why not start with a patch JUST addressing that, see how toss performs and then iterate from there instead of changing 15 different things and hoping they all work together. You're overcomplicating things for no real reason I feel. If I had to think of a reason though, only two come to mind. One, the balance council may feel there is no time for this slow of a process with fresh new RTS coming out. Two, they feel blizzard will not be cooperative enough to push another patch through in a timely manner so they want to fix as many things at once as possible, which honestly, I'm not even sure is theoretically a good idea because what if things go wrong? Then by your own virtue you will not be able to do anything about it for some time so it would be safer to air on the side of caution, no?

Just my two cents, what are your thoughts?
Never stop fighting~
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15310 Posts
September 07 2023 15:14 GMT
#2
Maybe they'll do that, I have the feeling the Cyclone change will get reverted anyway, all the feedback I've heard/read about it has been negative, even from pros like Lambo, Heromarine etc
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Fubika24
Profile Joined November 2022
22 Posts
September 07 2023 15:14 GMT
#3
The way I see it, they cant just go around nerfing of buffing a race, it has to come out to a zero sum game, otherwise the other 2/3rd of the council wont let it be implemented.

And I think this is the pitfall of trying to have players balance the game, pro or otherwise. Not gonna see a lot of objective takes, when so much is on the line constantly.

I dont see this council making protoss comparatively better than it is now any time soon.
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15310 Posts
September 07 2023 15:21 GMT
#4
On September 08 2023 00:14 Fubika24 wrote:
The way I see it, they cant just go around nerfing of buffing a race, it has to come out to a zero sum game, otherwise the other 2/3rd of the council wont let it be implemented.

And I think this is the pitfall of trying to have players balance the game, pro or otherwise. Not gonna see a lot of objective takes, when so much is on the line constantly.

I dont see this council making protoss comparatively better than it is now any time soon.

Anyone who understands this game knows this patch is definitely overall a buff for Protoss in both matchups (barring the controversial cyclone change which is unlikely to make it into the game). Whether it's enough of a buff is arguable, but you can't argue it's not a Protoss buff. And that's not my opinion, that's what multiple pros have stated.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Tsubbi
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany7906 Posts
September 07 2023 15:49 GMT
#5
Though its hard to evaluete, Lambos video analysis has been very good to get a ballpark of how matchup balance will be affected (cyclone change is excluded) with the current iteration of the patch:

TvZ: Big buff to Terran
TvP: Minor buff to Protoss
PvZ: Minor buff to Protoss

You have to wonder how we got this initial starting point in the balance patch. If anything Terran was slightly overperforming and Protoss needs more help. The TvZ changes especially are very questionable.

I agree that balancing should be a bigger focus than redesigning a unit that had a perfectly fine role in all matchups.
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15254 Posts
September 07 2023 17:58 GMT
#6
Do we really need another one of these threads? Can't we just compile all of the balance talk to one thread?
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
JJH777
Profile Joined January 2011
United States4135 Posts
September 07 2023 18:19 GMT
#7
I think the ghost nerf in TvZ is being downplayed. Yeah the baneling nerf is massive but the ghost snipe nerf is as well. Snipe doing 40 less damage will result in the unit being far less efficient. Ultras in particular are going to be amazing now. People look at nothing but the breakpoints and say well Terrans will just snipe one more time to kill Ultras but that's really simplified and won't actually be how the interaction plays out in most games. Transfuse also now heals almost the same amount as snipe so it will be a much more even energy trade if ghosts are sniping units that are being transfused.

Though I guess the real question is if Zergs can even consistently make it to that point of the game with worse banelings which is a valid concern.
tigera6
Profile Joined March 2021
2533 Posts
September 08 2023 02:24 GMT
#8
Zerg is showing more and more capability of doing a Roach/Ravager opening and transition into Hydra/Lurker with LingBane support in late-mid game. I think we will see this more instead of the traditional Lingbane Hydra recently.
CicadaSC
Profile Joined January 2018
United States658 Posts
September 08 2023 14:08 GMT
#9
Is the balance council going to respond to this at all? Would love their thoughts. While there has been some more communication this hasn't been addressed at all.
Never stop fighting~
Drahkn
Profile Joined June 2021
139 Posts
September 08 2023 14:26 GMT
#10
Harstem is delusional when it comes to balance in my personal opinion , he spends to much time in the Lambo,Serral
and Reynor bubble of perceived balance. Anyway who can take seriously the balancing of a game when it is balanced by people who stand a chance at making money from tournaments. No other serious organization does this.

You can clearly see it in the patchnotes of the PTR , there is serious pushing for making mech super viable which is not a balancing issue whatsoever that is more design change and is far from top of the main concerns of the game right now and it is still getting major attention.

Viper remains untouched and actually gets a buff another clear cut sign of incompetence in my personal opinion.

This unit is grabbing units with ease that cost 400 minerals and 300 gas and it has still not been addressed, the insanity is actually real, I have been facepalming at this game ever since hots release at the absurdity that is SC2 balance and how easy especially Zerg has had it over all these years.

Another good example of this is the Baneling, is has been nerfed several times now in the later stages of SC2 and it is still way to strong , what will it take for someone to call this out for what it is. Zerg and Terran get special treatment always has if it was intentional or not we will never know.

Now before any of you mods Warn or Temp Ban me , I have only stated my personal opinion on someone's ability to execute something, I have not personally attacked anyone


Balnazza
Profile Joined January 2018
336 Posts
September 08 2023 16:27 GMT
#11
On September 08 2023 23:26 Drahkn wrote:
Harstem is delusional when it comes to balance in my personal opinion , he spends to much time in the Lambo,Serral
and Reynor bubble of perceived balance. Anyway who can take seriously the balancing of a game when it is balanced by people who stand a chance at making money from tournaments. No other serious organization does this.

You can clearly see it in the patchnotes of the PTR , there is serious pushing for making mech super viable which is not a balancing issue whatsoever that is more design change and is far from top of the main concerns of the game right now and it is still getting major attention.

Viper remains untouched and actually gets a buff another clear cut sign of incompetence in my personal opinion.

This unit is grabbing units with ease that cost 400 minerals and 300 gas and it has still not been addressed, the insanity is actually real, I have been facepalming at this game ever since hots release at the absurdity that is SC2 balance and how easy especially Zerg has had it over all these years.

Another good example of this is the Baneling, is has been nerfed several times now in the later stages of SC2 and it is still way to strong , what will it take for someone to call this out for what it is. Zerg and Terran get special treatment always has if it was intentional or not we will never know.

Now before any of you mods Warn or Temp Ban me , I have only stated my personal opinion on someone's ability to execute something, I have not personally attacked anyone




If you already anticipate a temp ban, you might want to reconsider the way you articulate yourself.
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15310 Posts
September 08 2023 16:58 GMT
#12
On September 08 2023 23:26 Drahkn wrote:
Harstem is delusional when it comes to balance in my personal opinion , he spends to much time in the Lambo,Serral
and Reynor bubble of perceived balance. Anyway who can take seriously the balancing of a game when it is balanced by people who stand a chance at making money from tournaments. No other serious organization does this.

You can clearly see it in the patchnotes of the PTR , there is serious pushing for making mech super viable which is not a balancing issue whatsoever that is more design change and is far from top of the main concerns of the game right now and it is still getting major attention.

Viper remains untouched and actually gets a buff another clear cut sign of incompetence in my personal opinion.

This unit is grabbing units with ease that cost 400 minerals and 300 gas and it has still not been addressed, the insanity is actually real, I have been facepalming at this game ever since hots release at the absurdity that is SC2 balance and how easy especially Zerg has had it over all these years.

Another good example of this is the Baneling, is has been nerfed several times now in the later stages of SC2 and it is still way to strong , what will it take for someone to call this out for what it is. Zerg and Terran get special treatment always has if it was intentional or not we will never know.

Now before any of you mods Warn or Temp Ban me , I have only stated my personal opinion on someone's ability to execute something, I have not personally attacked anyone



The reason it's done the way it is, is because Blizzard just doesn't want to put any resources into it. But honestly I don't understand those calls for a professional, external team of balance designers.

We used to have this, and that team was responsible for:

-leaving Broodlord Infestor untouched for a year
-hour long Swarmhost stalemates
-Mass Raven turtle
-mega buff to infested terrans leading to BL/Infestor 2.0 - again untouched for a year
-Voidray buff into 1 year skytoss vs Queenwalk meta


I think the status quo is preferable
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Drahkn
Profile Joined June 2021
139 Posts
September 08 2023 17:00 GMT
#13
On September 09 2023 01:27 Balnazza wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2023 23:26 Drahkn wrote:
Harstem is delusional when it comes to balance in my personal opinion , he spends to much time in the Lambo,Serral
and Reynor bubble of perceived balance. Anyway who can take seriously the balancing of a game when it is balanced by people who stand a chance at making money from tournaments. No other serious organization does this.

You can clearly see it in the patchnotes of the PTR , there is serious pushing for making mech super viable which is not a balancing issue whatsoever that is more design change and is far from top of the main concerns of the game right now and it is still getting major attention.

Viper remains untouched and actually gets a buff another clear cut sign of incompetence in my personal opinion.

This unit is grabbing units with ease that cost 400 minerals and 300 gas and it has still not been addressed, the insanity is actually real, I have been facepalming at this game ever since hots release at the absurdity that is SC2 balance and how easy especially Zerg has had it over all these years.

Another good example of this is the Baneling, is has been nerfed several times now in the later stages of SC2 and it is still way to strong , what will it take for someone to call this out for what it is. Zerg and Terran get special treatment always has if it was intentional or not we will never know.

Now before any of you mods Warn or Temp Ban me , I have only stated my personal opinion on someone's ability to execute something, I have not personally attacked anyone




If you already anticipate a temp ban, you might want to reconsider the way you articulate yourself.



Trust me mate , I've been banned because a mod did not like the "assumed tone" in my message although I broke no rules.
Philippe
Profile Joined October 2020
188 Posts
September 08 2023 17:23 GMT
#14
On September 09 2023 02:00 Drahkn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2023 01:27 Balnazza wrote:
On September 08 2023 23:26 Drahkn wrote:
Harstem is delusional when it comes to balance in my personal opinion , he spends to much time in the Lambo,Serral
and Reynor bubble of perceived balance. Anyway who can take seriously the balancing of a game when it is balanced by people who stand a chance at making money from tournaments. No other serious organization does this.

You can clearly see it in the patchnotes of the PTR , there is serious pushing for making mech super viable which is not a balancing issue whatsoever that is more design change and is far from top of the main concerns of the game right now and it is still getting major attention.

Viper remains untouched and actually gets a buff another clear cut sign of incompetence in my personal opinion.

This unit is grabbing units with ease that cost 400 minerals and 300 gas and it has still not been addressed, the insanity is actually real, I have been facepalming at this game ever since hots release at the absurdity that is SC2 balance and how easy especially Zerg has had it over all these years.

Another good example of this is the Baneling, is has been nerfed several times now in the later stages of SC2 and it is still way to strong , what will it take for someone to call this out for what it is. Zerg and Terran get special treatment always has if it was intentional or not we will never know.

Now before any of you mods Warn or Temp Ban me , I have only stated my personal opinion on someone's ability to execute something, I have not personally attacked anyone




If you already anticipate a temp ban, you might want to reconsider the way you articulate yourself.



Trust me mate , I've been banned because a mod did not like the "assumed tone" in my message although I broke no rules.



When the tone is sometimes more important than the message itself, no surprises it may happen even when no technical rules are broken.
Balnazza
Profile Joined January 2018
336 Posts
September 08 2023 17:26 GMT
#15
On September 09 2023 02:00 Drahkn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2023 01:27 Balnazza wrote:
On September 08 2023 23:26 Drahkn wrote:
Harstem is delusional when it comes to balance in my personal opinion , he spends to much time in the Lambo,Serral
and Reynor bubble of perceived balance. Anyway who can take seriously the balancing of a game when it is balanced by people who stand a chance at making money from tournaments. No other serious organization does this.

You can clearly see it in the patchnotes of the PTR , there is serious pushing for making mech super viable which is not a balancing issue whatsoever that is more design change and is far from top of the main concerns of the game right now and it is still getting major attention.

Viper remains untouched and actually gets a buff another clear cut sign of incompetence in my personal opinion.

This unit is grabbing units with ease that cost 400 minerals and 300 gas and it has still not been addressed, the insanity is actually real, I have been facepalming at this game ever since hots release at the absurdity that is SC2 balance and how easy especially Zerg has had it over all these years.

Another good example of this is the Baneling, is has been nerfed several times now in the later stages of SC2 and it is still way to strong , what will it take for someone to call this out for what it is. Zerg and Terran get special treatment always has if it was intentional or not we will never know.

Now before any of you mods Warn or Temp Ban me , I have only stated my personal opinion on someone's ability to execute something, I have not personally attacked anyone




If you already anticipate a temp ban, you might want to reconsider the way you articulate yourself.



Trust me mate , I've been banned because a mod did not like the "assumed tone" in my message although I broke no rules.


Well, as someone who was a Mod for almost ten years...I don't like your assumed tone either and would atleast give you a warning. So really mate, maybe try less "everyone is out to get Protoss" and "everyone but me has no idea about the game" kind of approach?

Anyway, sorry for offtopic, finished now.
Philippe
Profile Joined October 2020
188 Posts
September 08 2023 17:33 GMT
#16
On September 08 2023 23:08 CicadaSC wrote:
Is the balance council going to respond to this at all? Would love their thoughts. While there has been some more communication this hasn't been addressed at all.


I don't really see the balance council explaining the full extent of their logic, like ever. This would open a worse can of worms than leaving everybody guess. One can just look at what happened when the current patch was first announced, tested, and then released back in the day.

But a bit more of transparency wouldn't hurt.
Arghmyliver
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States1074 Posts
September 08 2023 18:11 GMT
#17
Anyone who suggests the balance council is a "Zerg Cabal" or that the individuals on the council are merely in it to try and give their own race some kind of advantage so they can win more money can be immediately disregarded as foolish, jaded or delusional, imho. Are you assuming that the balance council of is some kind of insidious force hellbent on ruining your enjoyment of the game because whatever individual change you personally wanted to see didn't make it into the most recent patch? Clearly you think you can do better than a council of professionals who have basically dedicated every waking hour to this game for the past 10+ years, but I call BS.

Whenever these threads pop up like "WHY DIDN'T THE BALANCE CABAL MAKE MY CHANGES THAT I WANTED?!!" it just sounds like any other whiny teenager who thinks they know better than an entire body of experts.

"Didn't they even THINK about doing X, Y or Z?" I can assure you, if it was worth considering, they probably considered it. If you have a suggestion, by all means, post it, but maligning the council or questioning their motive is just disrespectful and childish.

As to whether they err on the side of caution, I would imagine they err on the side of coming to a compromise as a council. Democracy, while perhaps the most fair form of decision making, cannot be and has never been considered the most expedient.
Now witness their attempts to fly from tree to tree. Notice they do not so much fly as plummet.
Athenau
Profile Joined March 2015
532 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-09-08 18:24:08
September 08 2023 18:23 GMT
#18

"Didn't they even THINK about doing X, Y or Z?" I can assure you, if it was worth considering, they probably considered it. If you have a suggestion, by all means, post it, but maligning the council or questioning their motive is just disrespectful and childish.

This is hopelessly naive. Any collaborative effort needs to account for competing interests or it's doomed to failure. Recognizing that some of the members of the balance council have a financial stake in the outcome isn't "maligning the council", it's recognizing reality.
Drahkn
Profile Joined June 2021
139 Posts
September 08 2023 18:34 GMT
#19
On September 09 2023 02:26 Balnazza wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2023 02:00 Drahkn wrote:
On September 09 2023 01:27 Balnazza wrote:
On September 08 2023 23:26 Drahkn wrote:
Harstem is delusional when it comes to balance in my personal opinion , he spends to much time in the Lambo,Serral
and Reynor bubble of perceived balance. Anyway who can take seriously the balancing of a game when it is balanced by people who stand a chance at making money from tournaments. No other serious organization does this.

You can clearly see it in the patchnotes of the PTR , there is serious pushing for making mech super viable which is not a balancing issue whatsoever that is more design change and is far from top of the main concerns of the game right now and it is still getting major attention.

Viper remains untouched and actually gets a buff another clear cut sign of incompetence in my personal opinion.

This unit is grabbing units with ease that cost 400 minerals and 300 gas and it has still not been addressed, the insanity is actually real, I have been facepalming at this game ever since hots release at the absurdity that is SC2 balance and how easy especially Zerg has had it over all these years.

Another good example of this is the Baneling, is has been nerfed several times now in the later stages of SC2 and it is still way to strong , what will it take for someone to call this out for what it is. Zerg and Terran get special treatment always has if it was intentional or not we will never know.

Now before any of you mods Warn or Temp Ban me , I have only stated my personal opinion on someone's ability to execute something, I have not personally attacked anyone




If you already anticipate a temp ban, you might want to reconsider the way you articulate yourself.



Trust me mate , I've been banned because a mod did not like the "assumed tone" in my message although I broke no rules.


Well, as someone who was a Mod for almost ten years...I don't like your assumed tone either and would atleast give you a warning. So really mate, maybe try less "everyone is out to get Protoss" and "everyone but me has no idea about the game" kind of approach?

Anyway, sorry for offtopic, finished now.




Why do we have a forum if we can't disagree this is just absurd to me xD
Arghmyliver
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States1074 Posts
September 08 2023 18:45 GMT
#20
On September 09 2023 03:23 Athenau wrote:
Show nested quote +

"Didn't they even THINK about doing X, Y or Z?" I can assure you, if it was worth considering, they probably considered it. If you have a suggestion, by all means, post it, but maligning the council or questioning their motive is just disrespectful and childish.

This is hopelessly naive. Any collaborative effort needs to account for competing interests or it's doomed to failure. Recognizing that some of the members of the balance council have a financial stake in the outcome isn't "maligning the council", it's recognizing reality.


The statement "some of the members of the balance council have a financial stake in the outcome" may be technically correct, but to suggest that profit is their motive is disrespectful and childish. Like I said -
maligning the council or questioning their motive is just disrespectful and childish.
What exactly do you think is happening? The council is colluding to make one race more powerful than the others so that those players can win and then split the prize money amoung the rest of them? How exactly does this work? It doesn't make any logical sense. If you HONESTLY believe that the main reason members of the council are participating is profit rather than trying to pump life into a dying, orphaned game I believe you are
foolish, jaded or delusional
Now witness their attempts to fly from tree to tree. Notice they do not so much fly as plummet.
1 2 3 Next All
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