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Kreuger
Sweden656 Posts
https://twitter.com/ESLSC2/status/1666142964509179906?cxt=HHwWhICwiduMqp8uAAAA "Welcome to the Winners Stage🏆 Can’t wait to get this going🔥 How about starting the Summer Finals Day 1 broadcast with Maru vs Reynor? You know, just to get that Friday rolling" ![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fx9UMjkWABcuug5?format=jpg&name=medium) Schedule has been released aswell https://twitter.com/ESLSC2/status/1666901686017744912?cxt=HHwWoICz6Y6Qg6IuAAAA ![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FyIGP_3WYCEWwWn?format=jpg&name=medium) Talents ![[image loading]](https://scontent-cph2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/353813820_658093926345696_50378220440300367_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=IQRuztnOvcIAX-j_VSG&_nc_ht=scontent-cph2-1.xx&oh=00_AfBD3xnGR9fpFH6DPjcFhG8HgUdRayowsNfffTTjNcstIw&oe=648B93BA) Open Stage Brackets https://twitter.com/ESLSC2/status/1669049612307423244?cxt=HHwWmICz4fDx06kuAAAA ![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fymnw7oWYAMezAH?format=jpg&name=medium) ![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FymnxL4WYA8dqJQ?format=jpg&name=medium) ![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FymnxgKWYBcP71V?format=jpg&name=medium) ![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FymnxxRWYAUOgnu?format=jpg&name=medium) 
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Kreuger
Sweden656 Posts
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lechatnoir
383 Posts
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dysenterymd
1177 Posts
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JJH777
United States4378 Posts
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MrBrown
6 Posts
On June 07 2023 06:28 JJH777 wrote: How does Serral almost always get the easiest possible opponent in the first round? Seeding. Winners get easy opponents. | ||
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tigera6
3220 Posts
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Philippe
349 Posts
On June 07 2023 06:28 JJH777 wrote: How does Serral almost always get the easiest possible opponent in the first round? Taking the problem from another angle, anything else would be unfair to him given how the standings are. #1 vs a player at the bottom of the directly seeded players ? | ||
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datastuff
31 Posts
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dysenterymd
1177 Posts
On June 07 2023 21:03 datastuff wrote: Maru is #1 seed. KR points are worth more rn bc they're through less of the season. Also the reason solar/gumi are invited over lambo/kela Reynor has fewer EU points (427) than Coffee has Asia points (455), so Reynor is a lower seed than Coffee I think and that's why #1 seed Maru was matched against him. Which doesn't actually reflect skill of course, but outcomes like this are inevitable when you have three non-KR regions with very different skill levels. Giving fewer EPT for winning Americas/Asia than Europe sort of addresses this issue, but clearly not entirely. | ||
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datastuff
31 Posts
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Gina
241 Posts
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JJH777
United States4378 Posts
He's not always the first seed. In IEMs 2022 and 2021, he was only the 3rd and 4th seed and most would agree he got the weakest group in both those years. In Serral's first ever win in an event with Koreans he got the weakest foreigner in the first round. | ||
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BelethielQT
90 Posts
On June 07 2023 23:09 JJH777 wrote: He's not always the first seed. In IEMs 2022 and 2021, he was only the 3rd and 4th seed and most would agree he got the weakest group in both those years. In Serral's first ever win in an event with Koreans he got the weakest foreigner in the first round. But he won the Event with the koreans so the first round doesnt matter | ||
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TossHeroes
281 Posts
The bracket is due to seeding and points. It’s not that complicated. Why are Maru fans complaining lol? He is on the easier side of the bracket than Serral | ||
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Philippe
349 Posts
On June 08 2023 02:59 TossHeroes wrote: Lots of butthurt Serral haters on this thread lol The bracket is due to seeding and points. It’s not that complicated. Why are Maru fans complaining lol? He is on the easier side of the bracket than Serral Or they are preaching for their own favourite region (whether Asia, Europe, Korea, NA), which is making the bias bound to happen ah. | ||
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Kafka777
361 Posts
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JJH777
United States4378 Posts
On June 07 2023 23:41 BelethielQT wrote: But he won the Event with the koreans so the first round doesnt matter Every round of an event matters. Advancing over top players 5 times in a row is a lot more impressive than 3 times. | ||
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ShowTheLights
Korea (South)1669 Posts
I UNDERSTAND you dont want to RIG brackets But we get Koreans vs Foreigners in legit tournaments maybe 2-3x a year And yet more than half of the bracket are FvF or KvK Like I hate it so much its EVERY time | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1102 Posts
On June 08 2023 04:50 JJH777 wrote: Every round of an event matters. Advancing over top players 5 times in a row is a lot more impressive than 3 times. Please tell me you are not talking about GSL vs. the World '18, where Serral won 3-0 over Kelazhur and immediately after that destroyed Inno with the same score... But just to be sure: Do we have to check for every player how they advanced through a tournament, just to check if their wins are "impressive" enough? | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4165 Posts
That's a shame. | ||
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JJH777
United States4378 Posts
On June 08 2023 07:14 Balnazza wrote: Please tell me you are not talking about GSL vs. the World '18, where Serral won 3-0 over Kelazhur and immediately after that destroyed Inno with the same score... But just to be sure: Just we from now on check for every player how they advanced through a tournament, just to check if their wins are "impressive" enough? I do think tournament wins should be weighted based on bracket difficulty and overall lineup difficulty yes. That's exactly why I think winning starleagues during the Kespa era is the most impressive result in SC2. And one of the many reasons I consider Maru the clear goat. Lineup and brackets were hard from the first qualifier until the final back then. Top players weren't 1k+ MMR ahead of the mid tier and another 500 ahead of the bottom. Every match was hard fought. | ||
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BelethielQT
90 Posts
On June 08 2023 14:34 JJH777 wrote: I do think tournament wins should be weighted based on bracket difficulty and overall lineup difficulty yes. That's exactly why I think winning starleagues during the Kespa era is the most impressive result in SC2. And one of the many reasons I consider Maru the clear goat. Lineup and brackets were hard from the first qualifier until the final back then. Top players weren't 1k+ MMR ahead of the mid tier and another 500 ahead of the bottom. Every match was hard fought. Lil bro is stuck in the past with lower skill games | ||
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MJG
United Kingdom830 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15878 Posts
On June 08 2023 07:14 Balnazza wrote: Please tell me you are not talking about GSL vs. the World '18, where Serral won 3-0 over Kelazhur and immediately after that destroyed Inno with the same score... But just to be sure: Just we from now on check for every player how they advanced through a tournament, just to check if their wins are "impressive" enough? People say Maru's WESG wasn't impressive because he only beat two top players in Serral and Dark. Why is it different for Serral? I thought as long as you beat some top players it doesn't matter if you had easy opponents in the first rounds? | ||
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Scarlett`
Canada2377 Posts
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Glorfindelio
193 Posts
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Balnazza
Germany1102 Posts
On June 08 2023 14:34 JJH777 wrote: I do think tournament wins should be weighted based on bracket difficulty and overall lineup difficulty yes. That's exactly why I think winning starleagues during the Kespa era is the most impressive result in SC2. And one of the many reasons I consider Maru the clear goat. Lineup and brackets were hard from the first qualifier until the final back then. Top players weren't 1k+ MMR ahead of the mid tier and another 500 ahead of the bottom. Every match was hard fought. Maru won SSL with a 3-0 over Leenock in the quarterfinals, who was the lowest rated player he could get. So I guess it wasn't that impressive of a win either? Lets face it: Not every tournament-run is comparable, but if you start that process, you can basically find something "negative" in every single tournament. Sometimes you get easier opponents. Or you lose somewhere in the group stage but recover. Is a run full of 3-0s more or less impressive than a run full of 3-2s? What is harder, being dominant or playing so many long matches and still come out ahead? Picking just one particular player and trying to find the bad spots in his runs and giving everyone else a pass is just bad faith. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15878 Posts
On June 08 2023 21:42 Balnazza wrote: Maru won SSL with a 3-0 over Leenock in the quarterfinals, who was the lowest rated player he could get. So I guess it wasn't that impressive of a win either? Lets face it: Not every tournament-run is comparable, but if you start that process, you can basically find something "negative" in every single tournament. Sometimes you get easier opponents. Or you lose somewhere in the group stage but recover. Is a run full of 3-0s more or less impressive than a run full of 3-2s? What is harder, being dominant or playing so many long matches and still come out ahead? Picking just one particular player and trying to find the bad spots in his runs and giving everyone else a pass is just bad faith. Yeah but you can see clear general trends that make certain tournaments harder to win than others. Tournaments like WESG or to some extent GSL vs the World are easier to win than IEM Katowice due to the number of top level players being limited and some weaker players being invited. And over time tournaments definitely got easier to win, just due to the player pool and number of championship contenders decreasing. Between 2013-2016 there were like 12 championship contenders and like 15-20 other players who could on a good day beat any player in the world. There were some Code A groups that were harder than todays ro16 groups for any tournament. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15878 Posts
Let's say there's a tournament with Serral, Dark, Maru and Creator. Creator beats Serral and then loses to Maru in the finals. Would that mean that Maru had an easy path because he avoided Serral? I don't think so as he beat the player that beat Serral, who on that day may have just been better than Serral. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1102 Posts
On June 08 2023 22:04 Charoisaur wrote: Yeah but you can see clear general trends that make certain tournaments harder to win than others. Tournaments like WESG or to some extent GSL vs the World are easier to win than IEM Katowice due to the number of top level players being limited and some weaker players being invited. And over time tournaments definitely got easier to win, just due to the player pool and number of championship contenders decreasing. Between 2013-2016 there were like 12 championship contenders and like 15-20 other players who could on a good day beat any player in the world. There were some Code A groups that were harder than todays ro16 groups for any tournament. I will agree that the competition has become less fearsome, while the overall skill-level (according to the likes of Rotterdam) improved massively. And I will definetly agree that not all tournaments are equally important. But again, if we start thinking in those categories, you can nitpick to an unreasonable degree. For example, if you say 2013-16 was the prime - then that means Maru winning 6SL isn't impressive, right? He hasn't won a single GSL in the timespan you declared as the prime, so he basically just won when the skill decreased, "the best of the rest". Now, my stance on Maru is pretty obvious, but even I wouldn't go that far, because it is just stupid. But if we pretend that there are massive drops in difficulty between years, then we have to see it that way. Oh and to you last point: I agree with you there aswell. A bracket-format will never declare "who is the best out of these 4/8/16" players, because most players in that bracket don't even play each other. It just decides who won the tournament and it is usually just pure ill-intensions to point the weaknesses in these runs out, while ignoring others. | ||
Poopi
France12761 Posts
As for the format, it is a bit stupid to see Maru meet a player as strong as Reynor so soon, but I guess Reynor underperformed and had a lower seed than expected? | ||
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tigera6
3220 Posts
On June 09 2023 00:18 Poopi wrote: Maru won starleagues during the most competitive era and was the best proleague player in that era as well, afaik. As for the format, it is a bit stupid to see Maru meet a player as strong as Reynor so soon, but I guess Reynor underperformed and had a lower seed than expected? Reynor replaced MaxPax but I guess they used his actual EPT points for the seeding, which is a top 8-EU ranking. Thats still higher rank than Solar/Gumiho while Maru has the 2nd highest EPT points overall. I guess there is a random process somewhere to mix thing up, but that still doesnt explain why we have a bracket of Scarlett (2nd NA), Solar (Combine standing), Byun and Bunny (top 4 KR). Meanwhile, we have Clem (top 4 EU), Cure (2nd KR), Oliveira (1st Asia and World Champ) and Gumiho (Combine standing) in another bracket. Would love to see the bracketology of ESL on this, or maybethey just put Maru and Serral on each side of the bracket and randomly draw everyone. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15878 Posts
On June 08 2023 23:32 Balnazza wrote: I will agree that the competition has become less fearsome, while the overall skill-level (according to the likes of Rotterdam) improved massively. And I will definetly agree that not all tournaments are equally important. But again, if we start thinking in those categories, you can nitpick to an unreasonable degree. For example, if you say 2013-16 was the prime - then that means Maru winning 6SL isn't impressive, right? He hasn't won a single GSL in the timespan you declared as the prime, so he basically just won when the skill decreased, "the best of the rest". Now, my stance on Maru is pretty obvious, but even I wouldn't go that far, because it is just stupid. But if we pretend that there are massive drops in difficulty between years, then we have to see it that way. Oh and to you last point: I agree with you there aswell. A bracket-format will never declare "who is the best out of these 4/8/16" players, because most players in that bracket don't even play each other. It just decides who won the tournament and it is usually just pure ill-intensions to point the weaknesses in these runs out, while ignoring others. Maru won OSL and SSL in that timespan which were basically like GSL, just with a different name (especially OSL which replaced GSL in the WCS circuit for that season). But yeah, I actually don't think the recent GSL win from Maru was that impressive. The 4-peat in 2018 when GSL was still very stacked, however, was extremely impressive. | ||
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tigera6
3220 Posts
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On June 08 2023 22:10 Charoisaur wrote: And to add on that train of thought, I don't think the specific path the player had should be that important, but just the overall bracket difficulty. Let's say there's a tournament with Serral, Dark, Maru and Creator. Creator beats Serral and then loses to Maru in the finals. Would that mean that Maru had an easy path because he avoided Serral? I don't think so as he beat the player that beat Serral, who on that day may have just been better than Serral. Don't think that's true, especially not in a different matchup. For sure don't think I'd have been equally impressed with Maru's run to the 2023 championship as I was with Oliveira's. The players you actually face matter. | ||
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Kreuger
Sweden656 Posts
Maybe a mod could edit the titel of the thread? | ||
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JJH777
United States4378 Posts
On June 08 2023 18:15 BelethielQT wrote: Lil bro is stuck in the past with lower skill games Skill level isn't even relevant to what I'm talking about. Regardless of whether skill level has gone up it was still harder to win tournaments when there were 100s of fulltime pros who were close in skills. Also this is in reply to other posts but there's a huge difference between getting an easy path because a "worse" player upset someone better than them vs the event itself simply having a weaker lineup mostly due to region locking where you're nearly guaranteed at least one weak opponent. | ||
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TossHeroes
281 Posts
On June 08 2023 04:50 JJH777 wrote: Every round of an event matters. Advancing over top players 5 times in a row is a lot more impressive than 3 times. If they’re the standard then that makes Maru’s first 4 GSL even less impressive than it already is. Maru r16 and r8 opponents are a joke compare to his peers | ||
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tigera6
3220 Posts
On June 09 2023 11:27 TossHeroes wrote: If they’re the standard then that makes Maru’s first 4 GSL even less impressive than it already is. Maru r16 and r8 opponents are a joke compare to his peers Gumiho/Dear/Classic/Zest was a joke in 2018-19? | ||
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JJH777
United States4378 Posts
On June 09 2023 11:27 TossHeroes wrote: If they’re the standard then that makes Maru’s first 4 GSL even less impressive than it already is. Maru r16 and r8 opponents are a joke compare to his peers They were much harder opponents than any opponents Serral has had in the ro16 of almost any of his premier wins. Only exceptions would be his Blizzcon vs Zest/sos and TY in the second GSL vs the World he won. A quick list of Maru's ro16 opponents during the timeframe you're referencing is Zest, Bunny, Dear, Reynor, solar, Neeb, Classic, Gumiho. Those are all far harder opponents than the top 16 of a typical HSC, region locked WCS stops, or season finals. | ||
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BelethielQT
90 Posts
On June 09 2023 14:27 JJH777 wrote: They were much harder opponents than any opponents Serral has had in the ro16 of almost any of his premier wins. Only exceptions would be his Blizzcon vs Zest/sos and TY in the second GSL vs the World he won. A quick list of Maru's ro16 opponents during the timeframe you're referencing is Zest, Bunny, Dear, Reynor, solar, Neeb, Classic, Gumiho. Those are all far harder opponents than the top 16 of a typical HSC, region locked WCS stops, or season finals. Zeit, bunny, reynor, dear, classic, solar etc. are one of the typical top 16 hsc | ||
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Poopi
France12761 Posts
On June 09 2023 11:27 TossHeroes wrote: If they’re the standard then that makes Maru’s first 4 GSL even less impressive than it already is. Maru r16 and r8 opponents are a joke compare to his peers "Less impressive than it already is", implying that his 4peat is not impressive? It is by far the greatest achievement ever done in Starcraft 2, winning 2 GSL in a row is already a monstrous feat, winning 4 in a row is just unbelievable. edit: winning 2 GSLs in a row in the reduced format of 2023 / with the current set of players is not as difficult as it was back then. | ||
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tigera6
3220 Posts
On June 09 2023 16:47 BelethielQT wrote: Zeit, bunny, reynor, dear, classic, solar etc. are one of the typical top 16 hsc Well, if you want to be typically correct, then Maru Serral Clem Dark are also top 16 HSC players. The question is are they also top 8/4 players, so lets check the players result in HSC during that time period (2018-19) HSC 17: Solar 4th, Zest top 6, Bunny top 8. HSC 18: Bunny 3rd, Zest 4th, Solar top 12, Reynor top 12 HSC 19: Zest 3rd, Solar top 8, Reynor top 12, Bunny top 16 Yeah, they I dont think they are *just* a typical top16 HSC bunch of guy. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1102 Posts
On June 09 2023 14:27 JJH777 wrote: They were much harder opponents than any opponents Serral has had in the ro16 of almost any of his premier wins. Only exceptions would be his Blizzcon vs Zest/sos and TY in the second GSL vs the World he won. A quick list of Maru's ro16 opponents during the timeframe you're referencing is Zest, Bunny, Dear, Reynor, solar, Neeb, Classic, Gumiho. Those are all far harder opponents than the top 16 of a typical HSC, region locked WCS stops, or season finals. So we finally cracked the code? Serral isn't really great, he just has bracket luck? You know, there is a saying in germany that kind of translates to "skill is, when luck becomes the standard". | ||
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TossHeroes
281 Posts
On June 09 2023 16:52 Poopi wrote: "Less impressive than it already is", implying that his 4peat is not impressive? It is by far the greatest achievement ever done in Starcraft 2, winning 2 GSL in a row is already a monstrous feat, winning 4 in a row is just unbelievable. edit: winning 2 GSLs in a row in the reduced format of 2023 / with the current set of players is not as difficult as it was back then. Winning 4GSL during Kesha will be impressive Winning 4 GSL in a row in 2018 was as impressive as Serral winning 4 WCS in a row Let’s not kid ourselves, Maru started to win after his Koreans competition started to age/decline/retire aka innovation, taeja, life etc. But don’t let facts ruin your bias, carry on with your Korean love Fun fact: Maru has never had a hard road to any of his championship Serral, reynor, and TIME all had the hardest road to their world championships. Something Maru will never achieve since he can only dominate in Korea | ||
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ZeroByte13
751 Posts
On June 10 2023 08:37 TossHeroes wrote: This is your best joke/trolling so far, and this is not an easy feat taking into account your usual claims. Winning 4 GSL in a row in 2018 was as impressive as Serral winning 4 WCS in a row | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15878 Posts
On June 10 2023 08:37 TossHeroes wrote: Let’s not kid ourselves, Maru started to win after his Koreans competition started to age/decline/retire aka innovation, taeja, life etc. In 2018 Inno, Rogue, Zest, Stats, Trap, soO, Dark, Classic, herO, sOs, TY, Cure, ByuN, Dear, Solar were all active which are basically all the Goat contenders except Life and Mvp. But I don't actually think you were serious... | ||
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Durnuu
13319 Posts
On June 10 2023 18:44 Charoisaur wrote: In 2018 Inno, Rogue, Zest, Stats, Trap, soO, Dark, Classic, herO, sOs, TY, Cure, ByuN, Dear, Solar were all active which are basically all the Goat contenders except Life and Mvp. But I don't actually think you were serious... Yes and no. How many champions/good players were eliminated early in rounds by the likes of Terminator, Effort, Myungsik, Reality, Bbyong, Hush, Hurricane, Fantasy, skyhigh, and goddamn Pigbaby just to cite a few. We lost a lot of good players, even in 2018 (and obviously more by now) that, yes they weren't champions at the time (who knows if they hadn't retired), but they had the level to upset them and made GSL so much harder to win. | ||
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ZeroByte13
751 Posts
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ZeroByte13
751 Posts
I've just learned it will take place 2-3 hours drive from where I live and I think about visiting it. But I never did that before so I wonder how does it look like, can you watch any games, or? What I need to be prepared for, etc. | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1804 Posts
On June 10 2023 18:44 Charoisaur wrote: In 2018 Inno, Rogue, Zest, Stats, Trap, soO, Dark, Classic, herO, sOs, TY, Cure, ByuN, Dear, Solar were all active which are basically all the Goat contenders except Life and Mvp. But I don't actually think you were serious... I mean, yeah, Solar, ByuN and Dear have to be like Top 30-Top 40 all time. | ||
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Mizenhauer
United States1804 Posts
Cure actually probably closer to 20 than the other three i mentioned. (good use of double post) | ||
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Poopi
France12761 Posts
On June 11 2023 08:04 Mizenhauer wrote: I mean, yeah, Solar, ByuN and Dear have to be like Top 30-Top 40 all time. ByuN is easily in the top 15 | ||
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
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Alex007
Ukraine211 Posts
On June 11 2023 07:41 ZeroByte13 wrote: Does someone here plan to be at the event? I've just learned it will take place 2-3 hours drive from where I live and I think about visiting it. But I never did that before so I wonder how does it look like, can you watch any games, or? What I need to be prepared for, etc. You will absolutely be able to watch the main broadcast games from the viewing area. This photo is an example of how it usually looks. Just don't forget to get the DH Summer festival pass. | ||
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ZeroByte13
751 Posts
Btw will you be there in person, Alex? I'm one of the viewers on your channel. | ||
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Alex007
Ukraine211 Posts
On June 11 2023 20:08 ZeroByte13 wrote: Thanks for the answer! Btw will you be there in person, Alex? I'm one of the viewers on your channel. Hopefully yes, this is the plan - so see you there! | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15878 Posts
On June 11 2023 08:04 Mizenhauer wrote: I mean, yeah, Solar, ByuN and Dear have to be like Top 30-Top 40 all time. I guess I should have written 'that includes basically every Goat contender except Life and Mvp' But the point was just that GSL in 2018 was still insanely competitive | ||
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Antithesis
Germany1096 Posts
On June 11 2023 19:42 Schelim wrote: Why are you guys having this stupid discussion in this thread which has absolutely nothing to do with it Because in this thread, people are learning that the literal winner of the EU regionals gets a higher seeding at the main event than other players. Anyway, looking forward to the tournament! | ||
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Kreuger
Sweden656 Posts
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QOGQOG
828 Posts
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Balnazza
Germany1102 Posts
On June 13 2023 05:29 QOGQOG wrote: When is the Open Stage happening? Am I missing something? Seeding and Open Stage are done at the same time. I assume, like with Dreamhacks in the past, the Open Stage won't get any official broadcast or only in later parts, while the focus is on the Seeding Stage. | ||
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Kreuger
Sweden656 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33192 Posts
Both MaxPax and herO being out woulda been so disheartening for Protoss. Obviously ShoWTimE, Astrea, Creator, and Classic are all very good players, but herO is the only one you really trust to challenge Serral, Maru, Dark etc for the championship in a live setting. | ||
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Kreuger
Sweden656 Posts
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Balnazza
Germany1102 Posts
On June 15 2023 03:52 Kreuger wrote: Happy to see Sweden with 2 participant, ofc same bracket It's three though, SortOf is there aswell and in a different bracket | ||
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Die4Ever
United States17610 Posts
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Kreuger
Sweden656 Posts
On June 15 2023 04:15 Balnazza wrote: It's three though, SortOf is there aswell and in a different bracket No idea why I didnt see him, but made me happy to have another swe in the competition | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1102 Posts
On a different note though, I think it is hilarious that Big Gabe is the only terran player in the open bracket, I think I've never seen that for any of the three races before | ||
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tlnetuser108
83 Posts
On June 07 2023 06:28 JJH777 wrote: How does Serral almost always get the easiest possible opponent in the first round? I think we all know why User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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