|
Hey there!
First of all: Not sure if this is the right forum or if it should be in Tournaments, but I assume mods will fix that if necessary.
Sparked by a discussion I had recently here on TL about what does and does not count as a World Championship, I decided to gather some numbers and create a "Walk of Fame" for the very highest title you can hold in SC2 - World Champion.
Some explanations first:
1. What do I count as a World Championship?
Lets start with the most questionable one: I only count "official" World Championships, meaning the title Blizzard gives out once a year at the end of either BattleNet, WCS or EPT. So it includes the first two BlizzCon Invitationals, all the WCS Global Finals and the IEM Katowice since 2021. Not included are any IEMs before 2021, no WESGs and also no GSLs, though you could argue atleast in the first few years GSL was the most important title to win.
You can debate at lengths about this, but for me the title World Champion has to be given out at the grandious finals of the entire year, which the tournaments I choose provide. They also give out the most money and include the best players.
Included:
BlizzCon: 2010, 2011
WCS: 2012 - 2019
IEM: 2021 - now
(Note: There was no World Championship in 2020, but the IEMs always give out the title for the circuit of the previous year)
2. How does the WoF work?
Debating at length with myself, I decided to go for the olympic approach: Simply count all the medals and order players accordingly. But I wanted to add a bit more, so in fact the count includes Gold, Silver, Top 4 and Top 8.
There are some bronze medal winners in earlier competition, but for the majority of Starcrafts Esports life, Third Place wasn't played out, so I will just lump those earlier semi-finalists together. Same goes for Top 6 finishes, they will just count as Top 8.
Top 12 was in debate, but there are two kinds of Top 12 (3rd place finishes in group vs. first playoffs stage), so I threw those out aswell.
3. Do I want to decide on a GOAT with this list?
I most certainly do NOT want to do that. This list doesn't decide who is GOAT, since there are a trillion factors for this. This is simply a list that shows you how people performed on what in my opinion is the biggest stage in the game. And even though I strongly believe you need atleast one World Championship to qualify as the GOAT, this is just a bit of data to play around with, nothing more.
All that said...I present to you the currently 54 (55) players who ever reached as high as a Top 8 in the World Championships!
#. Player - Gold/Silver/Top 4/Top8
1.  Serral - 2/0/1/0
1.  sOs - 2/0/1/0
3. Reynor - 1/2/0/0
4. Dark - 1/1//0/3
(YouKnowWho - Zerg - 1/1/0/0)
5. Rogue - 1/0/3/2
6. PartinG - 1/0/1/0
7. Genius - 1/0/0/0
7.  Mvp - 1/0/0/0
7. ByuN - 1/0/0/0
10. Stats - 0/1/1/0
11. Zest - 0/1/0/1
11. soO - 0/1/0/1
13. Loner - 0/1/0/0
13. NesTea - 0/1/0/0
13. Creator - 0/1/0/0
13. Jaedong - 0/1/0/0
13. MMA - 0/1/0/0
18. Classic - 0/0/3/0
19. Maru - 0/0/2/3
20. Sen - 0/0/2/1
21. TY - 0/0/1/3
22. DIMAGA - 0/0/1/1
22. Rain - 0/0/1/1
22. Bomber - 0/0/1/1
22. Elazer - 0/0/1/1
22. SpeCial - 0/0/1/1
27. White-Ra - 0/0/1/0
27. NaNiwa - 0/0/1/0
27. HeRoMaRinE - 0/0/1/0
27. TaeJa - 0/0/1/0
31. herO - 0/0/0/3
31. INnoVation - 0/0/0/3
33. KiLLeR - 0/0/0/2
34. Maka - 0/0/0/1
34. HuK - 0/0/0/1
34. Fenix - 0/0/0/1
34. SeleCT - 0/0/0/1
34. TooDming - 0/0/0/1
34. Suppy - 0/0/0/1
34. HerO - 0/0/0/1
34. VortiX - 0/0/0/1
34. Soulkey - 0/0/0/1
34. Polt - 0/0/0/1
34. Dear - 0/0/0/1
34. duckdeok - 0/0/0/1
34. San - 0/0/0/1
34. Hydra - 0/0/0/1
34. ShoWTimE - 0/0/0/1
34. Neeb - 0/0/0/1
34. GuMiho - 0/0/0/1
34. Trap - 0/0/0/1
34. Clem - 0/0/0/1
34. Solar - 0/0/0/1
34. Bunny - 0/0/0/1
And since I know you are eager to make all of this about balance: Here is the WoF for the three races 
1. Zerg - 6/7/8/17
2. Protoss - 4/3/9/13
3. Terran - 2/2/7/18
|
Nope, IEM Katowice is also a World Championship.
meaning the title Blizzard gives out once a year
By your own definition IEM 2021- now shouldn't count as it's not run by Blizzard
Also copying my responses from the other thread where we had this discussion:
Fair enough I just think it's a bit weird / arbitrary to only call the world championships that are the result of a year-long circuit 'real' world championships. In fact I would argue the IEM qualifier format leads to a more fierce player pool because that makes sure only the most in-form players qualify and not players who were strong in the beginning of the year and then declined but still made it in on points.
Also in many real sports world championships just have a normal qualifier, so it's not like that's a defining feature of a world championship.
I mean it doesn't matter anyways, it's just semantics.
Whether you consider Rogue a 3 time world championship winner or a 1 time world championship winner who has also won 2 other world championship equivalent tournaments which are basically the same in terms of player pool, prestige and prize money and also have 'world championship' in its name but officially aren't 'real' world championships due to arbitrary criteria doesn't make a difference.
|
Don't care what blizzard considers "world" title. To realistically not include GSL is asinine.
You say you want to you wanted to see who performed on what on the biggest stage, GSL has been for many years the biggest state due to the level of competition there.
It has been the toughest tournament in sc2 for the entirety of sc2 history. Yes in recent years the competition isn't as fierce due to the scene in Korea not being regenerated and pros retiring, but the largest concentration of the best pros has been in Korea, not to mention I believe the GSL format is also the toughest.
|
Canada8989 Posts
Interesting stats!
As for the IEM Katowice discussion, I will say in the defense of Balnazza vision that for most of the time they run, WCS included IEM but IEM did not include WCS, so there was a hierarchy there. It's also kind of recent that Katowice selected most of their players from qualifiers, it used to be the winners of the IEM circuit.
WCS and EPT champion are those around who the entire infrastructure is build, to me they are one step above the rest.
|
On August 19 2022 21:57 allmotor1 wrote:
Don't care what blizzard considers "world" title. To realistically not include GSL is asinine.
You say you want to you wanted to see who performed on what on the biggest stage, GSL has been for many years the biggest state due to the level of competition there.
It has been the toughest tournament in sc2 for the entirety of sc2 history. Yes in recent years the competition isn't as fierce due to the scene in Korea not being regenerated and pros retiring, but the largest concentration of the best pros has been in Korea, not to mention I believe the GSL format is also the toughest.
But its seasonal. not anual, and is not not international
Any players who's performing well ins GSL is probably gonna have a reflection of that on the world championship of that year.
It's not a perfect synthesiser of the "best players of SC II", but nor it is meant to be.... Its meant to be the Hall of Fame of World Champs.
|
You can't count GSL, because it's about that single most important event a year and that has always been Blizzcon/IEM Katowice. The only debatable ones are the early Blizzcons before WCS.
Even DH Winters probably have a greater claim to this than GSL's, since all the other Dreamhacks lead to that one.
|
On August 19 2022 22:26 Nakajin wrote:
Interesting stats!
As for the IEM Katowice discussion, I will say in the defense of Balnazza vision that for most of the time they run, WCS included IEM but IEM did not include WCS, so there was a hierarchy there. It's also kind of recent that Katowice selected most of their players from qualifiers, it used to be the winners of the IEM circuit.
WCS and EPT champion are those around who the entire infrastructure is build, to me they are one step above the rest.
I reworded it that way, because that is exactly what I meant, yes. I define the World Champion as the winner of the circuit finals, whoever runs them (reminder that Blizzard still pays the bills for EPT). I know that IEM Katowice has lots of prestige and money to offer and there were some tough calls for me. The most difficult was about Katowice 2020, because in that year it definetly was the biggest event...but it was just the start of the EPT 2020-21 circuit, so I couldn't count it by my own parameters.
As for GSL: I considered, but in the end, it is "just" a regional league with way too many entries in the early years. It wasn't special enough to be considered for this list, which is obviously odd since it was the pinnacle of SC2 for many years. Just take it as it is in Tennis: Yes there is a world championship at the end of the year, but the more important titles are the four Grand Slams. If you see GSL higher as the BWC/IEM feel free to do so. By all means take my list and add in whatever tournament you consider important enough to be on it.
If I find the time for it, maybe I do another list (though probably only up to Top 4) for every tournament that Liquipedia considers Premier/S-Tier?
On a different note:
I knew that taking out earlier IEMs would shaft Rogue hard, but I'm honestly surprised he still has the most Top 8 finishes in this with 6. He really is a consistent beast and he wasn't even around at the beginning!
|
On August 19 2022 23:18 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2022 22:26 Nakajin wrote:
Interesting stats!
As for the IEM Katowice discussion, I will say in the defense of Balnazza vision that for most of the time they run, WCS included IEM but IEM did not include WCS, so there was a hierarchy there. It's also kind of recent that Katowice selected most of their players from qualifiers, it used to be the winners of the IEM circuit.
WCS and EPT champion are those around who the entire infrastructure is build, to me they are one step above the rest. I define the World Champion as the winner of the circuit finals
Then why did you count the first 2 Blizzcons in 2010-11? There was no circuit in place back then
|
On August 19 2022 23:27 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2022 23:18 Balnazza wrote:On August 19 2022 22:26 Nakajin wrote:
Interesting stats!
As for the IEM Katowice discussion, I will say in the defense of Balnazza vision that for most of the time they run, WCS included IEM but IEM did not include WCS, so there was a hierarchy there. It's also kind of recent that Katowice selected most of their players from qualifiers, it used to be the winners of the IEM circuit.
WCS and EPT champion are those around who the entire infrastructure is build, to me they are one step above the rest. I define the World Champion as the winner of the circuit finals Then why did you count the first 2 Blizzcons in 2010-11? There was no circuit in place back then
I will admit, those two were also kind of sketchy. I think in our discussion I discarded them, but thinking about it, I included them simply because they are the first two big Blizzard tournaments. Though it really was just a gut decision, taking them out would be totally fine aswell.
|
TY has been called a world champion many times by a lot of different casters and community figures. I didn't see this type of argument until Rogue started winning them. Regardless Katowice was pretty much always harder to win than Blizzcon especially with the format and prize pool from ~2017 on.
|
United States1875 Posts
any list that has genius near the top for winning an event where the only koreans in attendence were select and maka is more nonsensical than the article i wrote about impact.
|
United States33388 Posts
I think including the first two BlizzCon invitationals in 2010-2011 doesn't fit your "the grandious finals of the entire year" criteria, even if they were official Blizzard events. I think it's better to just skip the those two years than force an event like the IEM WC, Blizzard Cup, or BlizzCon invitational into it.
If I had to force in any non-Blizzard event as the 'most grandious', I think I go GSL Open Season 1 for 2010, and MLG Providence for 2011 
|
On August 19 2022 21:45 Charoisaur wrote:Nope, IEM Katowice is also a World Championship. By your own definition IEM 2021- now shouldn't count as it's not run by Blizzard Also copying my responses from the other thread where we had this discussion: Show nested quote +Fair enough I just think it's a bit weird / arbitrary to only call the world championships that are the result of a year-long circuit 'real' world championships. In fact I would argue the IEM qualifier format leads to a more fierce player pool because that makes sure only the most in-form players qualify and not players who were strong in the beginning of the year and then declined but still made it in on points.
Also in many real sports world championships just have a normal qualifier, so it's not like that's a defining feature of a world championship.
I mean it doesn't matter anyways, it's just semantics.
Whether you consider Rogue a 3 time world championship winner or a 1 time world championship winner who has also won 2 other world championship equivalent tournaments which are basically the same in terms of player pool, prestige and prize money and also have 'world championship' in its name but officially aren't 'real' world championships due to arbitrary criteria doesn't make a difference.
It has never been considered a wc until it was endorsed by blizzard as such. At best during the last years of wcs world it was the equivalent of msi in lol but the cash prize, the prod and the overall circuit, the audience and the hype were nowhere near the wc world, nice facts distorsion here, it was often two times lower if no more, and when it wasn't in 2019, the difference was 300k so no, the prize pool isn't "basically the same", as far as prestige, that's nothing more than revisionnism, each wcs was the pinacle of the starcraft years and were presented as such by writers, casters, players and the community.
I begin to understand why rogue fanboys consider him the goat when they literally invent titles. What's the next step now ? Genius was a world champ ? Lol Or let's add wesg as wc after all.
Anyway, glad to learn yoda and ace are world champion, it took 10 years for them to get recognized as such haha I ever remember people bitching about the gsl spot awarded to Ace after his victory because the level/prestige in the tourney was actually too low.
As said before, providence was actually a way bigger tournament at the time.
|
On August 20 2022 02:23 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2022 21:45 Charoisaur wrote:Nope, IEM Katowice is also a World Championship. meaning the title Blizzard gives out once a year By your own definition IEM 2021- now shouldn't count as it's not run by Blizzard Also copying my responses from the other thread where we had this discussion: Fair enough I just think it's a bit weird / arbitrary to only call the world championships that are the result of a year-long circuit 'real' world championships. In fact I would argue the IEM qualifier format leads to a more fierce player pool because that makes sure only the most in-form players qualify and not players who were strong in the beginning of the year and then declined but still made it in on points.
Also in many real sports world championships just have a normal qualifier, so it's not like that's a defining feature of a world championship.
I mean it doesn't matter anyways, it's just semantics.
Whether you consider Rogue a 3 time world championship winner or a 1 time world championship winner who has also won 2 other world championship equivalent tournaments which are basically the same in terms of player pool, prestige and prize money and also have 'world championship' in its name but officially aren't 'real' world championships due to arbitrary criteria doesn't make a difference. It has never been considered a wc until it was endorsed by blizzard as such. At best during the last years of wcs world it was the equivalent of msi in lol but the cash prize, the prod and the overall circuit the audience and the hype were nowhere near the wc world, nice facts distorsion here, it was often two times lower if no more, and when it wasn't in 2019, the difference was 300k k so no, the prize pool isn't "basically the same", as far as prestige, that's nothing more than revisionnism, each wcs was the pinacle of the starcraft years and were presented as such by writers, casters, players and the community. I begin to understand why rogue fanboys consider him the goat when they literally invent titles. What's the next step now ? Genius was a world champ ? Lol Or let's add wesg as wc after all. Anyway, glad to learn yoda and ace are world champion, it took 10 years for them to get recognized as such haha I ever remember people bitching about the gsl spot awarded to Ace after his victory because the level/prestige in the tourney was actually too low. As said before, providence was actually a way bigger tournament at the time.
This is not Rogue fans inventing titles, it's the opposite lol.
This was never a discussion before Rogue started winning them as JJH777 already said, sOs was unanimously called a 3-time-World Champion by basically all of the community, most casters etc. and nobody ever argued against that.
This is just Rogue haters being salty he has won the most of them and trying to discredit him
|
On August 20 2022 02:30 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2022 02:23 stilt wrote:On August 19 2022 21:45 Charoisaur wrote:Nope, IEM Katowice is also a World Championship. meaning the title Blizzard gives out once a year By your own definition IEM 2021- now shouldn't count as it's not run by Blizzard Also copying my responses from the other thread where we had this discussion: Fair enough I just think it's a bit weird / arbitrary to only call the world championships that are the result of a year-long circuit 'real' world championships. In fact I would argue the IEM qualifier format leads to a more fierce player pool because that makes sure only the most in-form players qualify and not players who were strong in the beginning of the year and then declined but still made it in on points.
Also in many real sports world championships just have a normal qualifier, so it's not like that's a defining feature of a world championship.
I mean it doesn't matter anyways, it's just semantics.
Whether you consider Rogue a 3 time world championship winner or a 1 time world championship winner who has also won 2 other world championship equivalent tournaments which are basically the same in terms of player pool, prestige and prize money and also have 'world championship' in its name but officially aren't 'real' world championships due to arbitrary criteria doesn't make a difference. It has never been considered a wc until it was endorsed by blizzard as such. At best during the last years of wcs world it was the equivalent of msi in lol but the cash prize, the prod and the overall circuit the audience and the hype were nowhere near the wc world, nice facts distorsion here, it was often two times lower if no more, and when it wasn't in 2019, the difference was 300k k so no, the prize pool isn't "basically the same", as far as prestige, that's nothing more than revisionnism, each wcs was the pinacle of the starcraft years and were presented as such by writers, casters, players and the community. I begin to understand why rogue fanboys consider him the goat when they literally invent titles. What's the next step now ? Genius was a world champ ? Lol Or let's add wesg as wc after all. Anyway, glad to learn yoda and ace are world champion, it took 10 years for them to get recognized as such haha I ever remember people bitching about the gsl spot awarded to Ace after his victory because the level/prestige in the tourney was actually too low. As said before, providence was actually a way bigger tournament at the time. This is not Rogue fans inventing titles, it's the opposite lol. This was never a discussion before Rogue started winning them as JJH777 already said, sOs was unanimously called a 3-time-World Champion by basically all of the community, most casters etc. and nobody ever argued against that. This is just Rogue haters being salty he has won the most of them and trying to discredit him
Definitely. That was author's intention from the beginning. After these, author may claim why Maru should not be regarded GOAT by comparing with the one he put above anyone else in the list.
|
Btw: Serral is only in front of sOs because of alphabetical order. I will however admit that I just forgot about that later on and then I was too lazy to fix it for the rest of the ties...
|
France12880 Posts
Why not include IEM World Championship which are actual WC?
Weird list
|
On August 20 2022 04:40 Poopi wrote:
Why not include IEM World Championship which are actual WC?
Weird list
So I have to include the ESWC aswell which is literally the Electronic Sports World Cup?
|
On August 20 2022 05:03 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2022 04:40 Poopi wrote:
Why not include IEM World Championship which are actual WC?
Weird list So I have to include the ESWC aswell which is literally the Electronic Sports World Cup?
did that have a 100000$+ prizepool for the winner and all the top players in the world participating?
|
Guys....urgh. Okay, just because you all annoyed me...I mean just because I love this community so much, here is the Top 10 of players finishing Gold or Silver in EVERY Premier event listed on Liquipedia, except three Code A that are listed there which I felt was dumb, sorry. I was also too lazy to check for Top 4/8, if someone wants to do that, feel free and lets go! Also I won't post the entire list because it honestly is a hassle...may include a screenshot if you like?
Top 10 of all Premier events (Gold/Silver):
1. Serral (18/9)
2. Maru (11/9)
3. TaeJa (11/2)
4. Rogue (11/1)
5. INnoVation (10/4)
-. YouKnowWho (10/4)
6. MMA (9/4)
7. Mvp (9/2)
8. Reynor (8/9)
9. Polt (8/5)
10. Neeb (8/4)
And yes, this list includes the regional DreamHack Masters in the last couple years, thus Neebs strong performance. But excluding them would have meant to also exclude GSL which is just odd. Though I assume this list will tank anyway since neither Rogue nor Maru are on the top? 
Fret not! Here are also the Top 5 of every addon!
Wings of Liberty:
1. Mvp (8/2)
2. MC (5/4)
3. MMA (5/2)
-. YouKnowWho (4/1)
4. Leenock (3/2)
4. PuMa (3/2)
(TaeJa, HerO, Stephano and NesTea tie for sixth place with 3/1)
Heart of the Swarm:
1. TaeJa (8/1)
-. YouKnowWho (6/3)
2. Polt (5/3)
3. herO (5/2)
4. INnoVation (4/2)
4. sOs (4/2)
(Zest and Bomber are tied for sixth place with 4/1)
Legacy of the Void:
1. Serral (18/9)
2. Rogue (11/1)
3. Maru (9/8)
4. Reynor (8/9)
5. Neeb (8/4)
Once again, do with those numbers whatever you like
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
