Hey there! First of all: Not sure if this is the right forum or if it should be in Tournaments, but I assume mods will fix that if necessary.
Sparked by a discussion I had recently here on TL about what does and does not count as a World Championship, I decided to gather some numbers and create a "Walk of Fame" for the very highest title you can hold in SC2 - World Champion.
Some explanations first:
1. What do I count as a World Championship?
Lets start with the most questionable one: I only count "official" World Championships, meaning the title Blizzard gives out once a year at the end of either BattleNet, WCS or EPT. So it includes the first two BlizzCon Invitationals, all the WCS Global Finals and the IEM Katowice since 2021. Not included are any IEMs before 2021, no WESGs and also no GSLs, though you could argue atleast in the first few years GSL was the most important title to win. You can debate at lengths about this, but for me the title World Champion has to be given out at the grandious finals of the entire year, which the tournaments I choose provide. They also give out the most money and include the best players.
Included: BlizzCon: 2010, 2011 WCS: 2012 - 2019 IEM: 2021 - now (Note: There was no World Championship in 2020, but the IEMs always give out the title for the circuit of the previous year)
2. How does the WoF work?
Debating at length with myself, I decided to go for the olympic approach: Simply count all the medals and order players accordingly. But I wanted to add a bit more, so in fact the count includes Gold, Silver, Top 4 and Top 8. There are some bronze medal winners in earlier competition, but for the majority of Starcrafts Esports life, Third Place wasn't played out, so I will just lump those earlier semi-finalists together. Same goes for Top 6 finishes, they will just count as Top 8. Top 12 was in debate, but there are two kinds of Top 12 (3rd place finishes in group vs. first playoffs stage), so I threw those out aswell.
3. Do I want to decide on a GOAT with this list?
I most certainly do NOT want to do that. This list doesn't decide who is GOAT, since there are a trillion factors for this. This is simply a list that shows you how people performed on what in my opinion is the biggest stage in the game. And even though I strongly believe you need atleast one World Championship to qualify as the GOAT, this is just a bit of data to play around with, nothing more.
All that said...I present to you the currently 54 (55) players who ever reached as high as a Top 8 in the World Championships!
By your own definition IEM 2021- now shouldn't count as it's not run by Blizzard
Also copying my responses from the other thread where we had this discussion:
Fair enough I just think it's a bit weird / arbitrary to only call the world championships that are the result of a year-long circuit 'real' world championships. In fact I would argue the IEM qualifier format leads to a more fierce player pool because that makes sure only the most in-form players qualify and not players who were strong in the beginning of the year and then declined but still made it in on points. Also in many real sports world championships just have a normal qualifier, so it's not like that's a defining feature of a world championship.
I mean it doesn't matter anyways, it's just semantics. Whether you consider Rogue a 3 time world championship winner or a 1 time world championship winner who has also won 2 other world championship equivalent tournaments which are basically the same in terms of player pool, prestige and prize money and also have 'world championship' in its name but officially aren't 'real' world championships due to arbitrary criteria doesn't make a difference.
Don't care what blizzard considers "world" title. To realistically not include GSL is asinine.
You say you want to you wanted to see who performed on what on the biggest stage, GSL has been for many years the biggest state due to the level of competition there.
It has been the toughest tournament in sc2 for the entirety of sc2 history. Yes in recent years the competition isn't as fierce due to the scene in Korea not being regenerated and pros retiring, but the largest concentration of the best pros has been in Korea, not to mention I believe the GSL format is also the toughest.
As for the IEM Katowice discussion, I will say in the defense of Balnazza vision that for most of the time they run, WCS included IEM but IEM did not include WCS, so there was a hierarchy there. It's also kind of recent that Katowice selected most of their players from qualifiers, it used to be the winners of the IEM circuit.
WCS and EPT champion are those around who the entire infrastructure is build, to me they are one step above the rest.
On August 19 2022 21:57 allmotor1 wrote: Don't care what blizzard considers "world" title. To realistically not include GSL is asinine.
You say you want to you wanted to see who performed on what on the biggest stage, GSL has been for many years the biggest state due to the level of competition there.
It has been the toughest tournament in sc2 for the entirety of sc2 history. Yes in recent years the competition isn't as fierce due to the scene in Korea not being regenerated and pros retiring, but the largest concentration of the best pros has been in Korea, not to mention I believe the GSL format is also the toughest.
But its seasonal. not anual, and is not not international
Any players who's performing well ins GSL is probably gonna have a reflection of that on the world championship of that year.
It's not a perfect synthesiser of the "best players of SC II", but nor it is meant to be.... Its meant to be the Hall of Fame of World Champs.
You can't count GSL, because it's about that single most important event a year and that has always been Blizzcon/IEM Katowice. The only debatable ones are the early Blizzcons before WCS. Even DH Winters probably have a greater claim to this than GSL's, since all the other Dreamhacks lead to that one.
On August 19 2022 22:26 Nakajin wrote: Interesting stats!
As for the IEM Katowice discussion, I will say in the defense of Balnazza vision that for most of the time they run, WCS included IEM but IEM did not include WCS, so there was a hierarchy there. It's also kind of recent that Katowice selected most of their players from qualifiers, it used to be the winners of the IEM circuit.
WCS and EPT champion are those around who the entire infrastructure is build, to me they are one step above the rest.
I reworded it that way, because that is exactly what I meant, yes. I define the World Champion as the winner of the circuit finals, whoever runs them (reminder that Blizzard still pays the bills for EPT). I know that IEM Katowice has lots of prestige and money to offer and there were some tough calls for me. The most difficult was about Katowice 2020, because in that year it definetly was the biggest event...but it was just the start of the EPT 2020-21 circuit, so I couldn't count it by my own parameters. As for GSL: I considered, but in the end, it is "just" a regional league with way too many entries in the early years. It wasn't special enough to be considered for this list, which is obviously odd since it was the pinnacle of SC2 for many years. Just take it as it is in Tennis: Yes there is a world championship at the end of the year, but the more important titles are the four Grand Slams. If you see GSL higher as the BWC/IEM feel free to do so. By all means take my list and add in whatever tournament you consider important enough to be on it. If I find the time for it, maybe I do another list (though probably only up to Top 4) for every tournament that Liquipedia considers Premier/S-Tier?
On a different note: I knew that taking out earlier IEMs would shaft Rogue hard, but I'm honestly surprised he still has the most Top 8 finishes in this with 6. He really is a consistent beast and he wasn't even around at the beginning!
On August 19 2022 22:26 Nakajin wrote: Interesting stats!
As for the IEM Katowice discussion, I will say in the defense of Balnazza vision that for most of the time they run, WCS included IEM but IEM did not include WCS, so there was a hierarchy there. It's also kind of recent that Katowice selected most of their players from qualifiers, it used to be the winners of the IEM circuit.
WCS and EPT champion are those around who the entire infrastructure is build, to me they are one step above the rest.
I define the World Champion as the winner of the circuit finals
Then why did you count the first 2 Blizzcons in 2010-11? There was no circuit in place back then
On August 19 2022 22:26 Nakajin wrote: Interesting stats!
As for the IEM Katowice discussion, I will say in the defense of Balnazza vision that for most of the time they run, WCS included IEM but IEM did not include WCS, so there was a hierarchy there. It's also kind of recent that Katowice selected most of their players from qualifiers, it used to be the winners of the IEM circuit.
WCS and EPT champion are those around who the entire infrastructure is build, to me they are one step above the rest.
I define the World Champion as the winner of the circuit finals
Then why did you count the first 2 Blizzcons in 2010-11? There was no circuit in place back then
I will admit, those two were also kind of sketchy. I think in our discussion I discarded them, but thinking about it, I included them simply because they are the first two big Blizzard tournaments. Though it really was just a gut decision, taking them out would be totally fine aswell.
TY has been called a world champion many times by a lot of different casters and community figures. I didn't see this type of argument until Rogue started winning them. Regardless Katowice was pretty much always harder to win than Blizzcon especially with the format and prize pool from ~2017 on.
any list that has genius near the top for winning an event where the only koreans in attendence were select and maka is more nonsensical than the article i wrote about impact.
I think including the first two BlizzCon invitationals in 2010-2011 doesn't fit your "the grandious finals of the entire year" criteria, even if they were official Blizzard events. I think it's better to just skip the those two years than force an event like the IEM WC, Blizzard Cup, or BlizzCon invitational into it.
If I had to force in any non-Blizzard event as the 'most grandious', I think I go GSL Open Season 1 for 2010, and MLG Providence for 2011
Fair enough I just think it's a bit weird / arbitrary to only call the world championships that are the result of a year-long circuit 'real' world championships. In fact I would argue the IEM qualifier format leads to a more fierce player pool because that makes sure only the most in-form players qualify and not players who were strong in the beginning of the year and then declined but still made it in on points. Also in many real sports world championships just have a normal qualifier, so it's not like that's a defining feature of a world championship.
I mean it doesn't matter anyways, it's just semantics. Whether you consider Rogue a 3 time world championship winner or a 1 time world championship winner who has also won 2 other world championship equivalent tournaments which are basically the same in terms of player pool, prestige and prize money and also have 'world championship' in its name but officially aren't 'real' world championships due to arbitrary criteria doesn't make a difference.
It has never been considered a wc until it was endorsed by blizzard as such. At best during the last years of wcs world it was the equivalent of msi in lol but the cash prize, the prod and the overall circuit, the audience and the hype were nowhere near the wc world, nice facts distorsion here, it was often two times lower if no more, and when it wasn't in 2019, the difference was 300k so no, the prize pool isn't "basically the same", as far as prestige, that's nothing more than revisionnism, each wcs was the pinacle of the starcraft years and were presented as such by writers, casters, players and the community.
I begin to understand why rogue fanboys consider him the goat when they literally invent titles. What's the next step now ? Genius was a world champ ? Lol Or let's add wesg as wc after all.
Anyway, glad to learn yoda and ace are world champion, it took 10 years for them to get recognized as such haha I ever remember people bitching about the gsl spot awarded to Ace after his victory because the level/prestige in the tourney was actually too low. As said before, providence was actually a way bigger tournament at the time.
On August 19 2022 21:45 Charoisaur wrote: Nope, IEM Katowice is also a World Championship.
meaning the title Blizzard gives out once a year
By your own definition IEM 2021- now shouldn't count as it's not run by Blizzard
Also copying my responses from the other thread where we had this discussion:
Fair enough I just think it's a bit weird / arbitrary to only call the world championships that are the result of a year-long circuit 'real' world championships. In fact I would argue the IEM qualifier format leads to a more fierce player pool because that makes sure only the most in-form players qualify and not players who were strong in the beginning of the year and then declined but still made it in on points. Also in many real sports world championships just have a normal qualifier, so it's not like that's a defining feature of a world championship.
I mean it doesn't matter anyways, it's just semantics. Whether you consider Rogue a 3 time world championship winner or a 1 time world championship winner who has also won 2 other world championship equivalent tournaments which are basically the same in terms of player pool, prestige and prize money and also have 'world championship' in its name but officially aren't 'real' world championships due to arbitrary criteria doesn't make a difference.
It has never been considered a wc until it was endorsed by blizzard as such. At best during the last years of wcs world it was the equivalent of msi in lol but the cash prize, the prod and the overall circuit the audience and the hype were nowhere near the wc world, nice facts distorsion here, it was often two times lower if no more, and when it wasn't in 2019, the difference was 300k k so no, the prize pool isn't "basically the same", as far as prestige, that's nothing more than revisionnism, each wcs was the pinacle of the starcraft years and were presented as such by writers, casters, players and the community.
I begin to understand why rogue fanboys consider him the goat when they literally invent titles. What's the next step now ? Genius was a world champ ? Lol Or let's add wesg as wc after all.
Anyway, glad to learn yoda and ace are world champion, it took 10 years for them to get recognized as such haha I ever remember people bitching about the gsl spot awarded to Ace after his victory because the level/prestige in the tourney was actually too low. As said before, providence was actually a way bigger tournament at the time.
This is not Rogue fans inventing titles, it's the opposite lol. This was never a discussion before Rogue started winning them as JJH777 already said, sOs was unanimously called a 3-time-World Champion by basically all of the community, most casters etc. and nobody ever argued against that. This is just Rogue haters being salty he has won the most of them and trying to discredit him
On August 19 2022 21:45 Charoisaur wrote: Nope, IEM Katowice is also a World Championship.
meaning the title Blizzard gives out once a year
By your own definition IEM 2021- now shouldn't count as it's not run by Blizzard
Also copying my responses from the other thread where we had this discussion:
Fair enough I just think it's a bit weird / arbitrary to only call the world championships that are the result of a year-long circuit 'real' world championships. In fact I would argue the IEM qualifier format leads to a more fierce player pool because that makes sure only the most in-form players qualify and not players who were strong in the beginning of the year and then declined but still made it in on points. Also in many real sports world championships just have a normal qualifier, so it's not like that's a defining feature of a world championship.
I mean it doesn't matter anyways, it's just semantics. Whether you consider Rogue a 3 time world championship winner or a 1 time world championship winner who has also won 2 other world championship equivalent tournaments which are basically the same in terms of player pool, prestige and prize money and also have 'world championship' in its name but officially aren't 'real' world championships due to arbitrary criteria doesn't make a difference.
It has never been considered a wc until it was endorsed by blizzard as such. At best during the last years of wcs world it was the equivalent of msi in lol but the cash prize, the prod and the overall circuit the audience and the hype were nowhere near the wc world, nice facts distorsion here, it was often two times lower if no more, and when it wasn't in 2019, the difference was 300k k so no, the prize pool isn't "basically the same", as far as prestige, that's nothing more than revisionnism, each wcs was the pinacle of the starcraft years and were presented as such by writers, casters, players and the community.
I begin to understand why rogue fanboys consider him the goat when they literally invent titles. What's the next step now ? Genius was a world champ ? Lol Or let's add wesg as wc after all.
Anyway, glad to learn yoda and ace are world champion, it took 10 years for them to get recognized as such haha I ever remember people bitching about the gsl spot awarded to Ace after his victory because the level/prestige in the tourney was actually too low. As said before, providence was actually a way bigger tournament at the time.
This is not Rogue fans inventing titles, it's the opposite lol. This was never a discussion before Rogue started winning them as JJH777 already said, sOs was unanimously called a 3-time-World Champion by basically all of the community, most casters etc. and nobody ever argued against that. This is just Rogue haters being salty he has won the most of them and trying to discredit him
Definitely. That was author's intention from the beginning. After these, author may claim why Maru should not be regarded GOAT by comparing with the one he put above anyone else in the list.
Btw: Serral is only in front of sOs because of alphabetical order. I will however admit that I just forgot about that later on and then I was too lazy to fix it for the rest of the ties...
Guys....urgh. Okay, just because you all annoyed me...I mean just because I love this community so much, here is the Top 10 of players finishing Gold or Silver in EVERY Premier event listed on Liquipedia, except three Code A that are listed there which I felt was dumb, sorry. I was also too lazy to check for Top 4/8, if someone wants to do that, feel free and lets go! Also I won't post the entire list because it honestly is a hassle...may include a screenshot if you like?
And yes, this list includes the regional DreamHack Masters in the last couple years, thus Neebs strong performance. But excluding them would have meant to also exclude GSL which is just odd. Though I assume this list will tank anyway since neither Rogue nor Maru are on the top?
On August 20 2022 06:06 Balnazza wrote: Guys....urgh. Okay, just because you all annoyed me...I mean just because I love this community so much, here is the Top 10 of players finishing Gold or Silver in EVERY Premier event listed on Liquipedia, except three Code A that are listed there which I felt was dumb, sorry. I was also too lazy to check for Top 4/8, if someone wants to do that, feel free and lets go! Also I won't post the entire list because it honestly is a hassle...may include a screenshot if you like?
And yes, this list includes the regional DreamHack Masters in the last couple years, thus Neebs strong performance. But excluding them would have meant to also exclude GSL which is just odd. Though I assume this list will tank anyway since neither Rogue nor Maru are on the top?
Once again, do with those numbers whatever you like
I take from those numbers that Serral is the Goat if you rate HSC and DH EU the same as a GSL.
Do you think Glasgow Rangers is the greatest football team of all time? They have won the most trophies after all
edit: But at least your incentive behind making this post is now clear. And your incentive behind not wanting to count IEM Katowice as a 'real' world championship
On August 20 2022 06:06 Balnazza wrote: Guys....urgh. Okay, just because you all annoyed me...I mean just because I love this community so much, here is the Top 10 of players finishing Gold or Silver in EVERY Premier event listed on Liquipedia, except three Code A that are listed there which I felt was dumb, sorry. I was also too lazy to check for Top 4/8, if someone wants to do that, feel free and lets go! Also I won't post the entire list because it honestly is a hassle...may include a screenshot if you like?
And yes, this list includes the regional DreamHack Masters in the last couple years, thus Neebs strong performance. But excluding them would have meant to also exclude GSL which is just odd. Though I assume this list will tank anyway since neither Rogue nor Maru are on the top?
Once again, do with those numbers whatever you like
I take from those numbers that Serral is the Goat if you rate HSC and DH EU the same as a GSL.
Do you think Glasgow Rangers is the greatest football team of all time? They have won the most trophies after all
edit: But at least your incentive behind making this post is now clear. And your incentive behind not wanting to count IEM Katowice as a 'real' world championship
Dude...ffs. It is just a fun waste of time, just some random data. You can make one thousand arguments for the GOAT-discussion, I wasn't even trying to do one?! Just to make this very, VERY clear: The sheer number of victories does not really help in the discussion, because at this very moment LotV has about 30 tournaments more than both other addons (WotL 85, HotS 86, LotV 116 and going). So players like Maru, Serral or Rogue who peaked in LotV already have an advantage over lets say Mvp who failed flat after WotL. If SC2 continues as it does now, there is a real chance Serral, Reynor and Clem (and I believe Maru since he is young enough) will have the chance to play more tournaments than a player that played WotL and HotS. So for the very useless discussion of who is GOAT my list here will become more and more useless with every coming year.
And please, if you don't like what is classified as a Premier tournament, take that discussion to Liquipedia, because I really just copied it from there. I didn't even check what tournaments who won, because it doesn't matter for the context of this. Only the Code A struck me as odd and I only noticed it because there was no second place. If you think you can come up with a better list, again, feel free to do so. But I won't play the "sooo, how do I need to construct my list so that Rogue wins?"-game...do that on your own please
Oh and last but not least: I'm honestly surprised Serral was on top of this, even by a good bit. My guess would have been INnoVation, TaeJa or someone like MC/Mvp.
There are only two tournaments that are really considered "premier" tournaments even if TL lists a lot of tournaments under premier they are not.
The only Premier tournaments in SC2 is GSL (not super tournament), the old Blizzcon and the IEM World finals (not the side IEMs with smaller price pools in different parts of the world).
These are the Tournaments where every player attends and play their absolute best SC2 because the price pool and the prestige is way higher then any other tournament. If you look at the list of tournaments some people call "Premier" you can clearly see some of them are way easier to win then others hence why they are not premier tournaments.
On August 20 2022 06:06 Balnazza wrote: Guys....urgh. Okay, just because you all annoyed me...I mean just because I love this community so much, here is the Top 10 of players finishing Gold or Silver in EVERY Premier event listed on Liquipedia, except three Code A that are listed there which I felt was dumb, sorry. I was also too lazy to check for Top 4/8, if someone wants to do that, feel free and lets go! Also I won't post the entire list because it honestly is a hassle...may include a screenshot if you like?
And yes, this list includes the regional DreamHack Masters in the last couple years, thus Neebs strong performance. But excluding them would have meant to also exclude GSL which is just odd. Though I assume this list will tank anyway since neither Rogue nor Maru are on the top?
Once again, do with those numbers whatever you like
I take from those numbers that Serral is the Goat if you rate HSC and DH EU the same as a GSL.
Do you think Glasgow Rangers is the greatest football team of all time? They have won the most trophies after all
edit: But at least your incentive behind making this post is now clear. And your incentive behind not wanting to count IEM Katowice as a 'real' world championship
But I won't play the "sooo, how do I need to construct my list so that Rogue wins?"-game...do that on your own please
No, but you did it for Serral
and don't act like you didn't want to make a point by posting the premier tournaments won list, your passive aggressive remarks made that very clear
On August 20 2022 06:06 Balnazza wrote: Guys....urgh. Okay, just because you all annoyed me...I mean just because I love this community so much, here is the Top 10 of players finishing Gold or Silver in EVERY Premier event listed on Liquipedia, except three Code A that are listed there which I felt was dumb, sorry. I was also too lazy to check for Top 4/8, if someone wants to do that, feel free and lets go! Also I won't post the entire list because it honestly is a hassle...may include a screenshot if you like?
And yes, this list includes the regional DreamHack Masters in the last couple years, thus Neebs strong performance. But excluding them would have meant to also exclude GSL which is just odd. Though I assume this list will tank anyway since neither Rogue nor Maru are on the top?
Once again, do with those numbers whatever you like
I take from those numbers that Serral is the Goat if you rate HSC and DH EU the same as a GSL.
Do you think Glasgow Rangers is the greatest football team of all time? They have won the most trophies after all
edit: But at least your incentive behind making this post is now clear. And your incentive behind not wanting to count IEM Katowice as a 'real' world championship
But I won't play the "sooo, how do I need to construct my list so that Rogue wins?"-game...do that on your own please
No, but you did it for Serral
and don't act like you didn't want to make a point by posting the premier tournaments won list, your passive aggressive remarks made that very clear
Yes, when I clearly stated that my entire list is useless for the GOAT-discussion this was obviously a ploy to push my fandom onto you specifically. Btw, my favorite player of all time isn't even Serral, but Snute. Couldn't come up with a list on which he is on top yet :/
You do realize I made the second list just because people annoyed me about the tournament selection, yes? As I said, I wasn't even expecting Serral to be on top of that second list, I started from the bottom/the start when I entered the data. And even though you probably won't believe me, I would have posted that list in any case, because I really don't care.
As for my "passive-aggressive"-remarks: Yes, maybe. Mostly because I just posted a random piece of data and people got triggered by it, because their favorite player isn't as glorious as they thought. But instead of just taking the 30-60 minutes themselves to make their own list with a different tournament selection, they get angry instead? I promise you, it takes zero skill to make a list like this. Pick whatever data you like from Liquipedia, enter it into an Excel document, sort it by medals a few times and bam, list done. Feel free to post it in this thread as a different approach, as an alternative to my "only BlizzCon/WCS/EPT Grand Finals count". But don't get huffy with me just because a very reasonable data-selection isn't giving you the outcome you like.
And as a note: You do see that sOs and Serral are tied in first place, yes? And should Reynor win the next IEM, he will take the thrown himself and I will gladly update the list then accordingly. Because I just want to have a simple WoF for "the" tournament of the year, nothing more.
On August 19 2022 21:45 Charoisaur wrote: Nope, IEM Katowice is also a World Championship.
meaning the title Blizzard gives out once a year
By your own definition IEM 2021- now shouldn't count as it's not run by Blizzard
Also copying my responses from the other thread where we had this discussion:
Fair enough I just think it's a bit weird / arbitrary to only call the world championships that are the result of a year-long circuit 'real' world championships. In fact I would argue the IEM qualifier format leads to a more fierce player pool because that makes sure only the most in-form players qualify and not players who were strong in the beginning of the year and then declined but still made it in on points. Also in many real sports world championships just have a normal qualifier, so it's not like that's a defining feature of a world championship.
I mean it doesn't matter anyways, it's just semantics. Whether you consider Rogue a 3 time world championship winner or a 1 time world championship winner who has also won 2 other world championship equivalent tournaments which are basically the same in terms of player pool, prestige and prize money and also have 'world championship' in its name but officially aren't 'real' world championships due to arbitrary criteria doesn't make a difference.
It has never been considered a wc until it was endorsed by blizzard as such. At best during the last years of wcs world it was the equivalent of msi in lol but the cash prize, the prod and the overall circuit the audience and the hype were nowhere near the wc world, nice facts distorsion here, it was often two times lower if no more, and when it wasn't in 2019, the difference was 300k k so no, the prize pool isn't "basically the same", as far as prestige, that's nothing more than revisionnism, each wcs was the pinacle of the starcraft years and were presented as such by writers, casters, players and the community.
I begin to understand why rogue fanboys consider him the goat when they literally invent titles. What's the next step now ? Genius was a world champ ? Lol Or let's add wesg as wc after all.
Anyway, glad to learn yoda and ace are world champion, it took 10 years for them to get recognized as such haha I ever remember people bitching about the gsl spot awarded to Ace after his victory because the level/prestige in the tourney was actually too low. As said before, providence was actually a way bigger tournament at the time.
This is not Rogue fans inventing titles, it's the opposite lol. This was never a discussion before Rogue started winning them as JJH777 already said, sOs was unanimously called a 3-time-World Champion by basically all of the community, most casters etc. and nobody ever argued against that. This is just Rogue haters being salty he has won the most of them and trying to discredit him
That was never discussed because that was never considered as such, tell anyone what you're stating in 2019 and they will say bs. sOs 3 times wc by the community, that's wrong, he was always deemed the two times world champions or the two times blizzcon winners because blizzcon at the time were the wc, the tournament which eclypsed the rest. In almost every intro by the casters, the community it was the two times wc. Zest wasn't called a wc either btw, none of them were until the end of wcs and when rogue fanboy began to push the narrative he was the goat. Just like his "longevity" which is always brought up while he didn't win a premier before the second half of 2017, Dark being by far the best zerg of lotv until it happened, this one in term of achievements is a super underrated player. And you obviously didn't adress my points, the prize pool being the more damning but narrative>facts. Just like a look at the old threads, debates of the then competition or the list of the goat of hots/all time made by stuchiu good luck in finding ppl stating kato=wcs world in it but then again, pointing facts seem pointless.
And before you bring I am a serral fanboy, I consider the goat is Maru, precisely because he actually won a ton during the kespa period even if his lack of actual wc is a asterisk he has the longevity.
On August 19 2022 21:45 Charoisaur wrote: Nope, IEM Katowice is also a World Championship.
meaning the title Blizzard gives out once a year
By your own definition IEM 2021- now shouldn't count as it's not run by Blizzard
Also copying my responses from the other thread where we had this discussion:
Fair enough I just think it's a bit weird / arbitrary to only call the world championships that are the result of a year-long circuit 'real' world championships. In fact I would argue the IEM qualifier format leads to a more fierce player pool because that makes sure only the most in-form players qualify and not players who were strong in the beginning of the year and then declined but still made it in on points. Also in many real sports world championships just have a normal qualifier, so it's not like that's a defining feature of a world championship.
I mean it doesn't matter anyways, it's just semantics. Whether you consider Rogue a 3 time world championship winner or a 1 time world championship winner who has also won 2 other world championship equivalent tournaments which are basically the same in terms of player pool, prestige and prize money and also have 'world championship' in its name but officially aren't 'real' world championships due to arbitrary criteria doesn't make a difference.
It has never been considered a wc until it was endorsed by blizzard as such. At best during the last years of wcs world it was the equivalent of msi in lol but the cash prize, the prod and the overall circuit the audience and the hype were nowhere near the wc world, nice facts distorsion here, it was often two times lower if no more, and when it wasn't in 2019, the difference was 300k k so no, the prize pool isn't "basically the same", as far as prestige, that's nothing more than revisionnism, each wcs was the pinacle of the starcraft years and were presented as such by writers, casters, players and the community.
I begin to understand why rogue fanboys consider him the goat when they literally invent titles. What's the next step now ? Genius was a world champ ? Lol Or let's add wesg as wc after all.
Anyway, glad to learn yoda and ace are world champion, it took 10 years for them to get recognized as such haha I ever remember people bitching about the gsl spot awarded to Ace after his victory because the level/prestige in the tourney was actually too low. As said before, providence was actually a way bigger tournament at the time.
This is not Rogue fans inventing titles, it's the opposite lol. This was never a discussion before Rogue started winning them as JJH777 already said, sOs was unanimously called a 3-time-World Champion by basically all of the community, most casters etc. and nobody ever argued against that. This is just Rogue haters being salty he has won the most of them and trying to discredit him
That was never discussed because that was never considered as such, tell anyone what you're stating in 2019 and they will say bs. sOs 3 times wc by the community, that's wrong, he was always deemed the two times world champions or the two times blizzcon winners because blizzcon at the time were the wc, the tournament which eclypsed the rest. In almost every intro by the casters, the community it was the two times wc. Zest wasn't called a wc either btw, none of them were until the end of wcs and when rogue fanboy began to push the narrative he was the goat. Just like his "longevity" which is always brought up while he didn't win a premier before the second half of 2017, Dark being by far the best zerg of lotv until it happened, this one in term of achievements is a super underrated player. And you obviously didn't adress my points, the prize pool being the more damning but narrative>facts. Just like a look at the old threads, debates of the then competition or the list of the goat of hots/all time made by stuchiu good luck in finding ppl stating kato=wcs world in it but then again, pointing facts seem pointless.
And before you bring I am a serral fanboy, I consider the goat is Maru, precisely because he actually won a ton during the kespa period even if his lack of actual wc is a asterisk he has the longevity.
Just so you have some stats: Rogue has not won a single Liquipedia Premier Tournament pre-LotV (and then went nuts ofc). Maru has not won a WoL-Premier, but is 2 Gold/1 Silver in HotS, also going nuts in LotV.
(If you want to talk about longevity: The only two Top 10 Premier players that have won a tournament in every addon are Polt and MMA. PartinG and MaNa have atleast finals appearances in every addon. So technically, since MaNa is the only one of those four that is still active, he is the player with the highest longevity in Premier tournaments. MaNa GOAT confirmed? Who knows...)
On August 19 2022 21:45 Charoisaur wrote: Nope, IEM Katowice is also a World Championship.
meaning the title Blizzard gives out once a year
By your own definition IEM 2021- now shouldn't count as it's not run by Blizzard
Also copying my responses from the other thread where we had this discussion:
Fair enough I just think it's a bit weird / arbitrary to only call the world championships that are the result of a year-long circuit 'real' world championships. In fact I would argue the IEM qualifier format leads to a more fierce player pool because that makes sure only the most in-form players qualify and not players who were strong in the beginning of the year and then declined but still made it in on points. Also in many real sports world championships just have a normal qualifier, so it's not like that's a defining feature of a world championship.
I mean it doesn't matter anyways, it's just semantics. Whether you consider Rogue a 3 time world championship winner or a 1 time world championship winner who has also won 2 other world championship equivalent tournaments which are basically the same in terms of player pool, prestige and prize money and also have 'world championship' in its name but officially aren't 'real' world championships due to arbitrary criteria doesn't make a difference.
It has never been considered a wc until it was endorsed by blizzard as such. At best during the last years of wcs world it was the equivalent of msi in lol but the cash prize, the prod and the overall circuit the audience and the hype were nowhere near the wc world, nice facts distorsion here, it was often two times lower if no more, and when it wasn't in 2019, the difference was 300k k so no, the prize pool isn't "basically the same", as far as prestige, that's nothing more than revisionnism, each wcs was the pinacle of the starcraft years and were presented as such by writers, casters, players and the community.
I begin to understand why rogue fanboys consider him the goat when they literally invent titles. What's the next step now ? Genius was a world champ ? Lol Or let's add wesg as wc after all.
Anyway, glad to learn yoda and ace are world champion, it took 10 years for them to get recognized as such haha I ever remember people bitching about the gsl spot awarded to Ace after his victory because the level/prestige in the tourney was actually too low. As said before, providence was actually a way bigger tournament at the time.
This is not Rogue fans inventing titles, it's the opposite lol. This was never a discussion before Rogue started winning them as JJH777 already said, sOs was unanimously called a 3-time-World Champion by basically all of the community, most casters etc. and nobody ever argued against that. This is just Rogue haters being salty he has won the most of them and trying to discredit him
That was never discussed because that was never considered as such, tell anyone what you're stating in 2019 and they will say bs. sOs 3 times wc by the community, that's wrong, he was always deemed the two times world champions or the two times blizzcon winners because blizzcon at the time were the wc, the tournament which eclypsed the rest. In almost every intro by the casters, the community it was the two times wc. Zest wasn't called a wc either btw, none of them were until the end of wcs and when rogue fanboy began to push the narrative he was the goat. Just like his "longevity" which is always brought up while he didn't win a premier before the second half of 2017, Dark being by far the best zerg of lotv until it happened, this one in term of achievements is a super underrated player. And you obviously didn't adress my points, the prize pool being the more damning but narrative>facts. Just like a look at the old threads, debates of the then competition or the list of the goat of hots/all time made by stuchiu good luck in finding ppl stating kato=wcs world in it but then again, pointing facts seem pointless.
And before you bring I am a serral fanboy, I consider the goat is Maru, precisely because he actually won a ton during the kespa period even if his lack of actual wc is a asterisk he has the longevity.
No, sOs was always called the 3 time world champion.
For the prizepool thing- it's true Blizzcon had a higher prizepool than IEM Katowice of the same year, but for example IEM Katowice 2019 had a prizepool of 400k$ and Blizzcon 2015 a prizepool of 250k$...
So why should Blizzcon 2015 be more prestigious than IEM Katowice 2019? The difference in prestige between the two tournaments is marginal at best especially because Katowice was harder to win anyways because of the format.
But if you want it so there is only 1 World Champion every year, you have to chose which one is more important. And here I agree that WCS > Katowice. It's true that casters called people double world champion and stuff like this, but just because the casters say this, doesn't make it so. According to Artosis there are 22 players in the top 10 and they are all the greatest in the world, as long as he puts on enough criteria to make that player stand out. For instance. Serral is the best player in the world. While, Rogue is the best player in the world, in korea. While, Maru is the best player in the world, in GSL...
On August 21 2022 19:45 ejozl wrote: But if you want it so there is only 1 World Champion every year, you have to chose which one is more important. And here I agree that WCS > Katowice. It's true that casters called people double world champion and stuff like this, but just because the casters say this, doesn't make it so. According to Artosis there are 22 players in the top 10 and they are all the greatest in the world, as long as he puts on enough criteria to make that player stand out. For instance. Serral is the best player in the world. While, Rogue is the best player in the world, in korea. While, Maru is the best player in the world, in GSL...
Why is it necessary though to have only 1 world championship in year? In terms of prestige the difference between the tournaments is marginal at best and both have world championship in its title so it seems weird to me that people want to call only 1 of them a 'real' world championship.
On August 21 2022 19:45 ejozl wrote: But if you want it so there is only 1 World Champion every year, you have to chose which one is more important. And here I agree that WCS > Katowice. It's true that casters called people double world champion and stuff like this, but just because the casters say this, doesn't make it so. According to Artosis there are 22 players in the top 10 and they are all the greatest in the world, as long as he puts on enough criteria to make that player stand out. For instance. Serral is the best player in the world. While, Rogue is the best player in the world, in korea. While, Maru is the best player in the world, in GSL...
Why is it necessary though to have only 1 world championship in year? In terms of prestige the difference between the tournaments is marginal at best and both have world championship in its title so it seems weird to me that people want to call only 1 of them a 'real' world championship.
Then again, in the earliest stages of SC2 there are far bigger and more important tournaments than the IEM Grand Finals, so why would IEM be counted all the way, but not for example IPL? Witht he BlizzCon/WCS/EPT Finals you just have a clear cut. And I know you won't believe me, but just for the lolz I googled a bit about sOs and found multiple articles praising him in 2015 to become the first "two-time world champion". Because in 2015, nobody would even have the idea that the IEM and BlizzCon are on the same level. But if it helps you, just take my list as the BlizzCon/WCS/EPT World Champions. Because for me, those are the big ones, the annual tournaments in which everything culminates (except for the first two, which I will just give a pass as "the first ones").
On August 21 2022 19:45 ejozl wrote: But if you want it so there is only 1 World Champion every year, you have to chose which one is more important. And here I agree that WCS > Katowice. It's true that casters called people double world champion and stuff like this, but just because the casters say this, doesn't make it so. According to Artosis there are 22 players in the top 10 and they are all the greatest in the world, as long as he puts on enough criteria to make that player stand out. For instance. Serral is the best player in the world. While, Rogue is the best player in the world, in korea. While, Maru is the best player in the world, in GSL...
Why is it necessary though to have only 1 world championship in year? In terms of prestige the difference between the tournaments is marginal at best and both have world championship in its title so it seems weird to me that people want to call only 1 of them a 'real' world championship.
Then again, in the earliest stages of SC2 there are far bigger and more important tournaments than the IEM Grand Finals, so why would IEM be counted all the way, but not for example IPL? Witht he BlizzCon/WCS/EPT Finals you just have a clear cut.
On August 20 2022 06:06 Balnazza wrote: Guys....urgh. Okay, just because you all annoyed me...I mean just because I love this community so much, here is the Top 10 of players finishing Gold or Silver in EVERY Premier event listed on Liquipedia, except three Code A that are listed there which I felt was dumb, sorry. I was also too lazy to check for Top 4/8, if someone wants to do that, feel free and lets go! Also I won't post the entire list because it honestly is a hassle...may include a screenshot if you like?
And yes, this list includes the regional DreamHack Masters in the last couple years, thus Neebs strong performance. But excluding them would have meant to also exclude GSL which is just odd. Though I assume this list will tank anyway since neither Rogue nor Maru are on the top?
Once again, do with those numbers whatever you like
i'm not going to get into any of this thread's debate, but i just gotta say, this number layout is terrible unless i'm missing something obvious. what are the fractions supposed to mean? before it was obvious that they were gold, silver, top 4, and top 8 finishes, but idk what these are
On August 19 2022 21:45 Charoisaur wrote: Nope, IEM Katowice is also a World Championship.
meaning the title Blizzard gives out once a year
By your own definition IEM 2021- now shouldn't count as it's not run by Blizzard
Also copying my responses from the other thread where we had this discussion:
Fair enough I just think it's a bit weird / arbitrary to only call the world championships that are the result of a year-long circuit 'real' world championships. In fact I would argue the IEM qualifier format leads to a more fierce player pool because that makes sure only the most in-form players qualify and not players who were strong in the beginning of the year and then declined but still made it in on points. Also in many real sports world championships just have a normal qualifier, so it's not like that's a defining feature of a world championship.
I mean it doesn't matter anyways, it's just semantics. Whether you consider Rogue a 3 time world championship winner or a 1 time world championship winner who has also won 2 other world championship equivalent tournaments which are basically the same in terms of player pool, prestige and prize money and also have 'world championship' in its name but officially aren't 'real' world championships due to arbitrary criteria doesn't make a difference.
It has never been considered a wc until it was endorsed by blizzard as such. At best during the last years of wcs world it was the equivalent of msi in lol but the cash prize, the prod and the overall circuit the audience and the hype were nowhere near the wc world, nice facts distorsion here, it was often two times lower if no more, and when it wasn't in 2019, the difference was 300k k so no, the prize pool isn't "basically the same", as far as prestige, that's nothing more than revisionnism, each wcs was the pinacle of the starcraft years and were presented as such by writers, casters, players and the community.
I begin to understand why rogue fanboys consider him the goat when they literally invent titles. What's the next step now ? Genius was a world champ ? Lol Or let's add wesg as wc after all.
Anyway, glad to learn yoda and ace are world champion, it took 10 years for them to get recognized as such haha I ever remember people bitching about the gsl spot awarded to Ace after his victory because the level/prestige in the tourney was actually too low. As said before, providence was actually a way bigger tournament at the time.
This is not Rogue fans inventing titles, it's the opposite lol. This was never a discussion before Rogue started winning them as JJH777 already said, sOs was unanimously called a 3-time-World Champion by basically all of the community, most casters etc. and nobody ever argued against that. This is just Rogue haters being salty he has won the most of them and trying to discredit him
That was never discussed because that was never considered as such, tell anyone what you're stating in 2019 and they will say bs. sOs 3 times wc by the community, that's wrong, he was always deemed the two times world champions or the two times blizzcon winners because blizzcon at the time were the wc, the tournament which eclypsed the rest. In almost every intro by the casters, the community it was the two times wc. Zest wasn't called a wc either btw, none of them were until the end of wcs and when rogue fanboy began to push the narrative he was the goat. Just like his "longevity" which is always brought up while he didn't win a premier before the second half of 2017, Dark being by far the best zerg of lotv until it happened, this one in term of achievements is a super underrated player. And you obviously didn't adress my points, the prize pool being the more damning but narrative>facts. Just like a look at the old threads, debates of the then competition or the list of the goat of hots/all time made by stuchiu good luck in finding ppl stating kato=wcs world in it but then again, pointing facts seem pointless.
And before you bring I am a serral fanboy, I consider the goat is Maru, precisely because he actually won a ton during the kespa period even if his lack of actual wc is a asterisk he has the longevity.
Just so you have some stats: Rogue has not won a single Liquipedia Premier Tournament pre-LotV (and then went nuts ofc). Maru has not won a WoL-Premier, but is 2 Gold/1 Silver in HotS, also going nuts in LotV.
(If you want to talk about longevity: The only two Top 10 Premier players that have won a tournament in every addon are Polt and MMA. PartinG and MaNa have atleast finals appearances in every addon. So technically, since MaNa is the only one of those four that is still active, he is the player with the highest longevity in Premier tournaments. MaNa GOAT confirmed? Who knows...)
The whole thing of dividing the scene in 3 big chunks by the OG + expansions makes me a bit uncomfortable since it feels misleading. The span between WOL and HOTS was only 2 years and a half. HOTS period was merely 3 years and LOTV is 7 already. Makes more sense to simple use years, so you can say: Maru has been a title contender and top tier since 2013, Rogue didn't exploded until 2017 and Serral became relevant in 2018.
On August 20 2022 06:06 Balnazza wrote: Guys....urgh. Okay, just because you all annoyed me...I mean just because I love this community so much, here is the Top 10 of players finishing Gold or Silver in EVERY Premier event listed on Liquipedia, except three Code A that are listed there which I felt was dumb, sorry. I was also too lazy to check for Top 4/8, if someone wants to do that, feel free and lets go! Also I won't post the entire list because it honestly is a hassle...may include a screenshot if you like?
And yes, this list includes the regional DreamHack Masters in the last couple years, thus Neebs strong performance. But excluding them would have meant to also exclude GSL which is just odd. Though I assume this list will tank anyway since neither Rogue nor Maru are on the top?
Once again, do with those numbers whatever you like
i'm not going to get into any of this thread's debate, but i just gotta say, this number layout is terrible unless i'm missing something obvious. what are the fractions supposed to mean? before it was obvious that they were gold, silver, top 4, and top 8 finishes, but idk what these are
Sorry if that was unclear: These aren't fractions, but Gold/Silver medals (first number Gold, second number Silver). I didn't check for Top 4 or 8 in this list.
As for dividing it into the addons: That was just an afterthought when the split between WoL and HotS came, so I thought I will just implement it. Doing it by years may be more true to the quest how long someone lasted/lasts in the game, but I didn't think of that (plus again, it would have been a hassle to split between two seperate arguments (years and addons)).
I won't update the complete list here (honestly a hassle), but just a few mentions after the recent 22/23 World Championship:
Serral is now the best performing player at the WCs, his Top 8 finish helping him to break the stalemate with sOs.
Maru has become the best performing player at the WCs that hasn't won the trophy yet.
Oliveira/TIME is the third terran to win the WC. Funnily, just as his predecessors ByuN and Mvp, he hasn't had a single Top 8 finish yet at the WC. Oliveira is also only the second Chinese player to reach the Top 8 at the WC, outperforming Loner (1x 2nd Place).
Dark and Maru close the gap to Rogue concerning the most Top 8 finishes at the WC, all three of them have 6 now. Considering that Darks military service is around the corner and this might be the last chance to do so, Maru could get the top spot in that category this year with atleast another Top 8 finish.
Terran is still the worst performing race at the WCs (3x Gold, 3x. Silver, 8x Top 4, 18x Top 8), but closed the gap to Protoss (4/3//10/13). Zerg remains at the top (6/7/9/21), but is ironically still the only of the three races with a negative record in terms of winning finals.
Kind of obvious, but with the new region split, America remains the only region that has never won the WC.
The best performing players at the WC from each of the now four regions are: EU: Serral S.Korea: sOs Asia-Pacific: Oliveira America: SpeCial
EPT
Serral - 2/0/1/0
sOs - 2/0/1/0
Mvp - 1/0/0/0
