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Well yes they make money from selling tickets, so there's nothing else he could say. But if someone is able and willing to play but blocked from doing so because it would make the production value worse, it takes the event a step away from an actual sport, a pursuit of excellence, and a step closer to professional wrestling.
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Another interesting comment from that Reddit thread was from Heyoka confirming that if someone tests positive in the bracket the loser of the prior round will take their place. So there is a very real (admittedly low but not as low as it should be) possibility we have a scenario of someone losing in the ro8 and then getting a second chance on the final day and winning the event.
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Maybe making it as an option for players to choose whether they want to arrive early or not. At least they have a choice if playesr want to play it safe, now there is no choice and we all have to cross our finger for the entire next week.
Anyway, I do realize all the these are just "food for thought" at the moment, nothing else can be done and not gonna change what going to happen.
So do we know when is the first group of players arriving? Would be cool for ESL to post on their twitter when the players have arrived and passed the Covid test at the airport.[/QUOTE][/quote]
Ah, option would've been a cool idea.
On February 21 2022 07:33 Pandain wrote:Made a post on reddit about this and Apollo made a response: Show nested quote +
Heyhey,
Throwing some insight behind the decision.
Over the last 2 years we've ran online competitions, we are now finally in a position to get back to LIVE events. We all want this, we miss this, which I believe we all can agree on. We do not want to be crowning another online champion.
To expand on this, we think it's important to understand how we define an IEM Champion. We not only value the raw skill of a player but equally the ability to manage the pressure and all other elements that come with an in-person, on-stage performance. This is as a key trait that defines a Champion.
With the decision to take the event in-person and not online, this was the decision point to not allow players to compete from within their hotel rooms, otherwise we would have simply ran an online competition.
We 100% respect your opinion on the matter and it's incredibly important to us that you provide it. As you can likely imagine, it's almost impossible to have the perfect environment in order to have a perfect tournament.
The biggest moments in SC2 have always been in person moments.
It's a good response during an unprecedented time...although I think online, minimal ping between international players is a huge step beyond cross server ping. More importantly, I still think that most of us would rather see someone play from hotel room than not play at all.
Regardless, sounds like decisions have been made and it is VERY last minute to make changes in the live events world. I'm still grateful no matter what happens.
Being optimistic, I'm sure all the players and their teams have and will do everything they humanly can to prevent someone from catching covid
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Katowice25012 Posts
Just coming here to post Shaun's reply, thanks! I can speak a little more to specifics:
As JJH mentioned, the general plan outlined for results is that if a player tests positive during groups (or even after if its before we start the bracket) mans we will calculate those results as if they haven't played at all, and if someone is unable to continue in the bracket their place is filled from the previous loser. There was some speculation in here we would advance without a match being played which isn't quite how it's handled.
We also have a number of event protocols to keep the players safe while here. They have private spaces for all activities, all ESL staff are vaccinated + have negative PCR tests + will be wearing masks, and we've eliminated activities that would otherwise have them interacting with the community (like signings).
To speak on the optional early arrival, this is generally already an option for any player though isn't something we push on our end. In this specific instance players are already making a big sacrifice going home, many of them have to quarantine for a week or more on return and so increasing that on the arrival end is not the most attractive for them (and isn't something we felt we could require).
On February 20 2022 22:49 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2022 00:50 vyzion wrote:On February 19 2022 22:06 tigera6 wrote:On February 19 2022 15:42 QOGQOG wrote:On February 19 2022 13:54 tigera6 wrote:On February 19 2022 10:29 QOGQOG wrote:
I don't really see what everyone's freaking out over. It's an in-person event and due to (perfectly reasonable) local laws, people who are infected can't participate in-person. That's that.
I mean, if anyone does get sick, that really sucks. But randomly switching online or breaking Polish law don't seem like especially useful ways of dealing with that (at this point purely hypothetical) situation. You missing the boat here, it wasnt about players who get sick BEFORE the traveling and gotta stay home, its about players who travel thousand of km, and then found positive upon arrival or during the stay in the country. It is hypothetical but the probability of it is still within the realm of real possibility, more so than Serral or some player breaking their hand and cant play. My whole issue with ESL on this, is that, they know the kind of risk players would have been exposed to during the traveling and the stay, and the severe consequence of that, but has showed no plan to reduce that risk whatsoever. Somebody already post a couple of solution for that, and you telling me ESL hosting a multi-million dollar events (prize pool + organization cost + production cost) cant even do any of that? The goal of having an offline Global Final is that viewer (at the stage and online) can see the highest level of SC2 competition, and all the resource should be focused to make that happen. ESL as organizer should make that their first priority, its not about rulebook, or LAN set-up, or fan accessibility inside the facility, its player AVAILABILITY first. I know that's what it's about. Where was I talking about pre-trip infection? If you have specific ideas about reducing the risk of players being exposed during travel feel free to share. I haven't seen any of these solutions you're talking about. I'm not sure what ESL could do to reduce risk short of chartering private planes. And I'm pretty sure that would indeed be out of their budget. While player AVAILABILITY certainly determines whether or not an offline event is possible, at a certain point, you just have to decide what sort of event you're doing. The highest level of SC2 competition is offline, and that's what ESL wants. Having some players off-site would compromise that. So I continue to just not really understand what people are complaining about, I guess. I already mentioned in my previous post about how players should be asked to travel 1 week in advance so that they can still play even if they test positive upon arrival. Private plane is also a good idea, and I have no idea how much that would cost in relative to the total cost of the event, which is in the range of millions of dollars. Those are clearly viable solution, and ESL should have addressed them before deciding if the cost was worth it. The highest level of SC2 competition is offline WITH all the top players available. There was no rush for having an offline tournament for this IEM, not from me at least, so I rather them putting together a better plan than just plunging toward it without considering all the issues. I am not sure what "certain point" you are talking about, why should ESL choose IEM to be offline if they know in advance that the local regulation might screw up the whole thing? I don’t know if asking all players to travel 1 week in advance is a good solution. even if it wasn’t too late at this point…That’s 36 players at an extra week of hotel costs (if you assume $50 USD per night then that’s $12.6k), plus how are they going to practice? I think the week leading up to the event is probably full of mental and physical preparation. Also schedules for their daily life can interfere. Not sure if players should want this but maybe I’m wrong IEM budget may not be as high as it looks from the outside, esp if you consider that blizz is sponsoring so much of it for StarCraft. I’d guess private planes are totally out of the question cost wise. I like the effort though, more ideas less whining! Maybe making it as an option for players to choose whether they want to arrive early or not. At least they have a choice if playesr want to play it safe, now there is no choice and we all have to cross our finger for the entire next week. Anyway, I do realize all the these are just "food for thought" at the moment, nothing else can be done and not gonna change what going to happen. So do we know when is the first group of players arriving? Would be cool for ESL to post on their twitter when the players have arrived and passed the Covid test at the airport.
To understand our timelines here, players started traveling Sunday morning CET and will all be arriving throughout the 21st. We'll be sure to update once we have them all safely on site!
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On February 21 2022 08:15 Heyoka wrote:Just coming here to post Shaun's reply, thanks! I can speak a little more to specifics: As JJH mentioned, the general plan outlined for results is that if a player tests positive during groups (or even after if its before we start the bracket) mans we will calculate those results as if they haven't played at all, and if someone is unable to continue in the bracket their place is filled from the previous loser. There was some speculation in here we would advance without a match being played which isn't quite how it's handled. We also have a number of event protocols to keep the players safe while here. They have private spaces for all activities, all ESL staff are vaccinated + have negative PCR tests + will be wearing masks, and we've eliminated activities that would otherwise have them interacting with the community (like signings). To speak on the optional early arrival, this is generally already an option for any player though isn't something we push on our end. In this specific instance players are already making a big sacrifice going home, many of them have to quarantine for a week or more on return and so increasing that on the arrival end is not the most attractive for them (and isn't something we felt we could require). Show nested quote +On February 20 2022 22:49 tigera6 wrote:On February 20 2022 00:50 vyzion wrote:On February 19 2022 22:06 tigera6 wrote:On February 19 2022 15:42 QOGQOG wrote:On February 19 2022 13:54 tigera6 wrote:On February 19 2022 10:29 QOGQOG wrote:
I don't really see what everyone's freaking out over. It's an in-person event and due to (perfectly reasonable) local laws, people who are infected can't participate in-person. That's that.
I mean, if anyone does get sick, that really sucks. But randomly switching online or breaking Polish law don't seem like especially useful ways of dealing with that (at this point purely hypothetical) situation. You missing the boat here, it wasnt about players who get sick BEFORE the traveling and gotta stay home, its about players who travel thousand of km, and then found positive upon arrival or during the stay in the country. It is hypothetical but the probability of it is still within the realm of real possibility, more so than Serral or some player breaking their hand and cant play. My whole issue with ESL on this, is that, they know the kind of risk players would have been exposed to during the traveling and the stay, and the severe consequence of that, but has showed no plan to reduce that risk whatsoever. Somebody already post a couple of solution for that, and you telling me ESL hosting a multi-million dollar events (prize pool + organization cost + production cost) cant even do any of that? The goal of having an offline Global Final is that viewer (at the stage and online) can see the highest level of SC2 competition, and all the resource should be focused to make that happen. ESL as organizer should make that their first priority, its not about rulebook, or LAN set-up, or fan accessibility inside the facility, its player AVAILABILITY first. I know that's what it's about. Where was I talking about pre-trip infection? If you have specific ideas about reducing the risk of players being exposed during travel feel free to share. I haven't seen any of these solutions you're talking about. I'm not sure what ESL could do to reduce risk short of chartering private planes. And I'm pretty sure that would indeed be out of their budget. While player AVAILABILITY certainly determines whether or not an offline event is possible, at a certain point, you just have to decide what sort of event you're doing. The highest level of SC2 competition is offline, and that's what ESL wants. Having some players off-site would compromise that. So I continue to just not really understand what people are complaining about, I guess. I already mentioned in my previous post about how players should be asked to travel 1 week in advance so that they can still play even if they test positive upon arrival. Private plane is also a good idea, and I have no idea how much that would cost in relative to the total cost of the event, which is in the range of millions of dollars. Those are clearly viable solution, and ESL should have addressed them before deciding if the cost was worth it. The highest level of SC2 competition is offline WITH all the top players available. There was no rush for having an offline tournament for this IEM, not from me at least, so I rather them putting together a better plan than just plunging toward it without considering all the issues. I am not sure what "certain point" you are talking about, why should ESL choose IEM to be offline if they know in advance that the local regulation might screw up the whole thing? I don’t know if asking all players to travel 1 week in advance is a good solution. even if it wasn’t too late at this point…That’s 36 players at an extra week of hotel costs (if you assume $50 USD per night then that’s $12.6k), plus how are they going to practice? I think the week leading up to the event is probably full of mental and physical preparation. Also schedules for their daily life can interfere. Not sure if players should want this but maybe I’m wrong IEM budget may not be as high as it looks from the outside, esp if you consider that blizz is sponsoring so much of it for StarCraft. I’d guess private planes are totally out of the question cost wise. I like the effort though, more ideas less whining! Maybe making it as an option for players to choose whether they want to arrive early or not. At least they have a choice if playesr want to play it safe, now there is no choice and we all have to cross our finger for the entire next week. Anyway, I do realize all the these are just "food for thought" at the moment, nothing else can be done and not gonna change what going to happen. So do we know when is the first group of players arriving? Would be cool for ESL to post on their twitter when the players have arrived and passed the Covid test at the airport. To understand our timelines here, players started traveling Sunday morning CET and will all be arriving throughout the 21st. We'll be sure to update once we have them all safely on site!
You guys are doing a great job, thank you.
I'm looking forward to the coming days!!!
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Just so this thread isnt just filled with people disagreeing or saying that testing is "useless": I fully support ESLs decisions regarding this. Big surprise: if you want to make an offline event happen during a pandemic with players traveling from across the world there are gonna have to be compromises and difficult decisions! There was never not going to be a small asterisk on any LAN tournament in these circumstances for purists regardless. Not everyone is going to be satisfied but I am sure people at ESL have weighed all the options and chose the most reasonable
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I hope everyone will enjoy the games and lets go Zest!! 
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In CSGO it was allowed for the IEM Play-Ins to play from the hotel room for single positive tested persons, but they don't want to continue this for the main event for the above reasons Apollo mentioned. ESL was very supportive and did a great job so far!
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The players should form a union and refuse to play if this isn't changed. If they get 10+ on board there is no way they'd be able to just DQ them. This has a high chance of costing multiple players a lot of money.
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On February 22 2022 03:06 JJH777 wrote:
The players should form a union and refuse to play if this isn't changed. If they get 10+ on board there is no way they'd be able to just DQ them. This has a high chance of costing multiple players a lot of money.
If 10+ people get "on board", ESL just cancels the entire tournament and uses the prizepool to cover their loses. So much better for everyone indeed...
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On February 22 2022 05:42 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2022 03:06 JJH777 wrote:
The players should form a union and refuse to play if this isn't changed. If they get 10+ on board there is no way they'd be able to just DQ them. This has a high chance of costing multiple players a lot of money. If 10+ people get "on board", ESL just cancels the entire tournament and uses the prizepool to cover their loses. So much better for everyone indeed...
There is no way they would rather cancel the event than let the few people who test positive play from a hotel room. They just need a little nudge. Just saying it's an option they should consider. I certainly would if I was a player as this is a very anti-player policy and the players are ultimately what drive viewership and fans. I guarantee they care far more about the possibility of being randomly DQ'd than about any advantage playing from a hotel does or doesn't provide.
It would be no different than the NBA player strike from a few years ago.
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As far as I can see, none of the players protested. They probably even knew in advance, just in case. Makes you wonder why they don't protest, huh? Maybe, just maybe, because they also see that there is no real alternative?
btw, in CS:GO, same rules apply for playoffs (every player that gets a positive test this week is out, so two positives in a team and they are out) and CS:GO HAS somewhat of a union, still they don't pressure this rule.
How are you on this crusade, when none of the people actually involved seem to care at all? just as a comparison: Most athletes in the Winter Olympics that just ended were extremly unhappy with the location (China). They also had some trouble with the Covid-regulations there. And still, basically no one dropped out. Why? Because for once, they need to play for the money, but maybe even more important they worked their asses off for four years to get to that tournament (and yes, some dreams just got crashed by Covid - shitty, but that happens sadly).
SC2 players worked a whole year to get to this event. And while there is a "chance" that they drop out with a positive test, you want them to drop out for sure.
And just on the off-chance players would complain on short notice and ESL had to accomodate them, give everyone the finger that attends the event to watch an empty stage and somehow manage to actually create the space for the players to play from their hotel rooms (in isolation...have fun) - why would they even consider putting up with that in the future? Obviously I don't know the numbers, but I can't imagine ESL is making the big bucks out of SC2 compared to CS:GO or some other ventures they have. So maybe the next offline tourney they cancel paid travel - hey, if you want to go on a strike one day before the event starts, you can atleast pay for your own travels, right?
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On February 22 2022 09:14 Balnazza wrote:
As far as I can see, none of the players protested. They probably even knew in advance, just in case. Makes you wonder why they don't protest, huh? Maybe, just maybe, because they also see that there is no real alternative?
btw, in CS:GO, same rules apply for playoffs (every player that gets a positive test this week is out, so two positives in a team and they are out) and CS:GO HAS somewhat of a union, still they don't pressure this rule.
How are you on this crusade, when none of the people actually involved seem to care at all? just as a comparison: Most athletes in the Winter Olympics that just ended were extremly unhappy with the location (China). They also had some trouble with the Covid-regulations there. And still, basically no one dropped out. Why? Because for once, they need to play for the money, but maybe even more important they worked their asses off for four years to get to that tournament (and yes, some dreams just got crashed by Covid - shitty, but that happens sadly).
SC2 players worked a whole year to get to this event. And while there is a "chance" that they drop out with a positive test, you want them to drop out for sure.
And just on the off-chance players would complain on short notice and ESL had to accomodate them, give everyone the finger that attends the event to watch an empty stage and somehow manage to actually create the space for the players to play from their hotel rooms (in isolation...have fun) - why would they even consider putting up with that in the future? Obviously I don't know the numbers, but I can't imagine ESL is making the big bucks out of SC2 compared to CS:GO or some other ventures they have. So maybe the next offline tourney they cancel paid travel - hey, if you want to go on a strike one day before the event starts, you can atleast pay for your own travels, right?
How do you know?
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On February 22 2022 09:14 Balnazza wrote:
As far as I can see, none of the players protested. They probably even knew in advance, just in case. Makes you wonder why they don't protest, huh? Maybe, just maybe, because they also see that there is no real alternative?
btw, in CS:GO, same rules apply for playoffs (every player that gets a positive test this week is out, so two positives in a team and they are out) and CS:GO HAS somewhat of a union, still they don't pressure this rule.
How are you on this crusade, when none of the people actually involved seem to care at all? just as a comparison: Most athletes in the Winter Olympics that just ended were extremly unhappy with the location (China). They also had some trouble with the Covid-regulations there. And still, basically no one dropped out. Why? Because for once, they need to play for the money, but maybe even more important they worked their asses off for four years to get to that tournament (and yes, some dreams just got crashed by Covid - shitty, but that happens sadly).
SC2 players worked a whole year to get to this event. And while there is a "chance" that they drop out with a positive test, you want them to drop out for sure.
And just on the off-chance players would complain on short notice and ESL had to accomodate them, give everyone the finger that attends the event to watch an empty stage and somehow manage to actually create the space for the players to play from their hotel rooms (in isolation...have fun) - why would they even consider putting up with that in the future? Obviously I don't know the numbers, but I can't imagine ESL is making the big bucks out of SC2 compared to CS:GO or some other ventures they have. So maybe the next offline tourney they cancel paid travel - hey, if you want to go on a strike one day before the event starts, you can atleast pay for your own travels, right?
I'm certain the players care. Them not protesting probably comes down to a few factors: they only found out on the 9th so not a lot of time to understand the full implications of this rule and react, they don't feel they have any say in it, and they likely have a "it won't happen or at least not to me" mentality like most people do about things of this nature. Hell, that seems to be the mentality ESL took about the worse case scenario of a bracket stage DQ since the only place it's been explained how that will be handled is a Reddit post. And I hope that mentality is proven right and my complaints were for nothing. I doubt it though.
I don't really consider spending a few minutes a few times a day writing a post to be a crusade but the reason I care is because I don't think the worst case scenario is that unlikely and it would ruin the event. That being a player who has already lost getting a COVID DQ related revival and winning the event. I want everyone to know that is a realistic possibility and I hope people would agree that would ruin the competitive integrity of the tournament. Unfortunately it seems most people don't care as you are pointing out. I'm guessing that if it actually comes to pass and especially if it happens to a fan favorite people will care a lot more and in that case I doubt these rules survive to the next offline ESL event.
I'd hope ESL wouldn't be that petty about players standing up for themselves but who knows. Regardless I still think it would be in their best interest, especially the ones who are about to go to military. Can you imagine Zest losing his final chance to make significant money on SC2 due to something outside of his control? A bunch of the KR players are at an age where this might be their last IEM before service.
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Btw, do we know how many streams will be online for the Ro36? I guess 2?
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On February 22 2022 10:37 tigera6 wrote:
Btw, do we know how many streams will be online for the Ro36? I guess 2?
Based on the casting thread it seems to be 1 main stream and 1 side stream in the OP. But Catz clarified that he had his own stream.
There are at least 2 streams, probably more.
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On February 22 2022 10:19 honorablemacroterran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2022 09:14 Balnazza wrote:
As far as I can see, none of the players protested. They probably even knew in advance, just in case. Makes you wonder why they don't protest, huh? Maybe, just maybe, because they also see that there is no real alternative?
btw, in CS:GO, same rules apply for playoffs (every player that gets a positive test this week is out, so two positives in a team and they are out) and CS:GO HAS somewhat of a union, still they don't pressure this rule.
How are you on this crusade, when none of the people actually involved seem to care at all? just as a comparison: Most athletes in the Winter Olympics that just ended were extremly unhappy with the location (China). They also had some trouble with the Covid-regulations there. And still, basically no one dropped out. Why? Because for once, they need to play for the money, but maybe even more important they worked their asses off for four years to get to that tournament (and yes, some dreams just got crashed by Covid - shitty, but that happens sadly).
SC2 players worked a whole year to get to this event. And while there is a "chance" that they drop out with a positive test, you want them to drop out for sure.
And just on the off-chance players would complain on short notice and ESL had to accomodate them, give everyone the finger that attends the event to watch an empty stage and somehow manage to actually create the space for the players to play from their hotel rooms (in isolation...have fun) - why would they even consider putting up with that in the future? Obviously I don't know the numbers, but I can't imagine ESL is making the big bucks out of SC2 compared to CS:GO or some other ventures they have. So maybe the next offline tourney they cancel paid travel - hey, if you want to go on a strike one day before the event starts, you can atleast pay for your own travels, right? How do you know?
Because I can see that none of them protested publicly, atleast not that I can find anything...
On February 22 2022 10:33 JJH777 wrote:
I'm certain the players care. Them not protesting probably comes down to a few factors: they only found out on the 9th so not a lot of time to understand the full implications of this rule and react, they don't feel they have any say in it, and they likely have a "it won't happen or at least not to me" mentality like most people do about things of this nature. Hell, that seems to be the mentality ESL took about the worse case scenario of a bracket stage DQ since the only place it's been explained how that will be handled is a Reddit post. And I hope that mentality is proven right and my complaints were for nothing. I doubt it though.
I don't really consider spending a few minutes a few times a day writing a post to be a crusade but the reason I care is because I don't think the worst case scenario is that unlikely and it would ruin the event. That being a player who has already lost getting a COVID DQ related revival and winning the event. I want everyone to know that is a realistic possibility and I hope people would agree that would ruin the competitive integrity of the tournament. Unfortunately it seems most people don't care as you are pointing out. I'm guessing that if it actually comes to pass and especially if it happens to a fan favorite people will care a lot more and in that case I doubt these rules survive to the next offline ESL event.
I'd hope ESL wouldn't be that petty about players standing up for themselves but who knows. Regardless I still think it would be in their best interest, especially the ones who are about to go to military. Can you imagine Zest losing his final chance to make significant money on SC2 due to something outside of his control? A bunch of the KR players are at an age where this might be their last IEM before service.
Well, the alternative is what happens in Tennis: If you can't attend your match, it is a defwin for your opponent, so the one you have beaten in the last round won't get your slot. Dunno if you like that more. But I 100% can understand why both players need to attend the stage in person. If one or even two players don't come on the stage, why bother doing it offline at all? Why didn't all of you speak up month ago and demanded an online tournament? Covid would be still a thing, that must have been clear to everyone.
ESL doesn't need to be "petty", but they need to consider if they can plan events like this with reliable players. Again, if your players wouldn't be on the same page as you as ESL with the biggest offline event, why bother doing events like this at all?
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On February 22 2022 21:54 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2022 10:19 honorablemacroterran wrote:On February 22 2022 09:14 Balnazza wrote:
As far as I can see, none of the players protested. They probably even knew in advance, just in case. Makes you wonder why they don't protest, huh? Maybe, just maybe, because they also see that there is no real alternative?
btw, in CS:GO, same rules apply for playoffs (every player that gets a positive test this week is out, so two positives in a team and they are out) and CS:GO HAS somewhat of a union, still they don't pressure this rule.
How are you on this crusade, when none of the people actually involved seem to care at all? just as a comparison: Most athletes in the Winter Olympics that just ended were extremly unhappy with the location (China). They also had some trouble with the Covid-regulations there. And still, basically no one dropped out. Why? Because for once, they need to play for the money, but maybe even more important they worked their asses off for four years to get to that tournament (and yes, some dreams just got crashed by Covid - shitty, but that happens sadly).
SC2 players worked a whole year to get to this event. And while there is a "chance" that they drop out with a positive test, you want them to drop out for sure.
And just on the off-chance players would complain on short notice and ESL had to accomodate them, give everyone the finger that attends the event to watch an empty stage and somehow manage to actually create the space for the players to play from their hotel rooms (in isolation...have fun) - why would they even consider putting up with that in the future? Obviously I don't know the numbers, but I can't imagine ESL is making the big bucks out of SC2 compared to CS:GO or some other ventures they have. So maybe the next offline tourney they cancel paid travel - hey, if you want to go on a strike one day before the event starts, you can atleast pay for your own travels, right? How do you know? Because I can see that none of them protested publicly, atleast not that I can find anything... Show nested quote +On February 22 2022 10:33 JJH777 wrote:
I'm certain the players care. Them not protesting probably comes down to a few factors: they only found out on the 9th so not a lot of time to understand the full implications of this rule and react, they don't feel they have any say in it, and they likely have a "it won't happen or at least not to me" mentality like most people do about things of this nature. Hell, that seems to be the mentality ESL took about the worse case scenario of a bracket stage DQ since the only place it's been explained how that will be handled is a Reddit post. And I hope that mentality is proven right and my complaints were for nothing. I doubt it though.
I don't really consider spending a few minutes a few times a day writing a post to be a crusade but the reason I care is because I don't think the worst case scenario is that unlikely and it would ruin the event. That being a player who has already lost getting a COVID DQ related revival and winning the event. I want everyone to know that is a realistic possibility and I hope people would agree that would ruin the competitive integrity of the tournament. Unfortunately it seems most people don't care as you are pointing out. I'm guessing that if it actually comes to pass and especially if it happens to a fan favorite people will care a lot more and in that case I doubt these rules survive to the next offline ESL event.
I'd hope ESL wouldn't be that petty about players standing up for themselves but who knows. Regardless I still think it would be in their best interest, especially the ones who are about to go to military. Can you imagine Zest losing his final chance to make significant money on SC2 due to something outside of his control? A bunch of the KR players are at an age where this might be their last IEM before service. Well, the alternative is what happens in Tennis: If you can't attend your match, it is a defwin for your opponent, so the one you have beaten in the last round won't get your slot. Dunno if you like that more. But I 100% can understand why both players need to attend the stage in person. If one or even two players don't come on the stage, why bother doing it offline at all? Why didn't all of you speak up month ago and demanded an online tournament? Covid would be still a thing, that must have been clear to everyone. ESL doesn't need to be "petty", but they need to consider if they can plan events like this with reliable players. Again, if your players wouldn't be on the same page as you as ESL with the biggest offline event, why bother doing events like this at all?
Do an offline tournament instead of online because you hope everyone will be able to play on stage?
But I just don't get how anyone can think DQing players when they get infected is the preferrable or more fair choice compared to letting them play from a hotel room.
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35/36 players have arrived, and only Time coming later today. Glad to know that we didnt lose anyone else to Covid Test.
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Northern Ireland25630 Posts
On February 22 2022 22:21 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2022 21:54 Balnazza wrote:On February 22 2022 10:19 honorablemacroterran wrote:On February 22 2022 09:14 Balnazza wrote:
As far as I can see, none of the players protested. They probably even knew in advance, just in case. Makes you wonder why they don't protest, huh? Maybe, just maybe, because they also see that there is no real alternative?
btw, in CS:GO, same rules apply for playoffs (every player that gets a positive test this week is out, so two positives in a team and they are out) and CS:GO HAS somewhat of a union, still they don't pressure this rule.
How are you on this crusade, when none of the people actually involved seem to care at all? just as a comparison: Most athletes in the Winter Olympics that just ended were extremly unhappy with the location (China). They also had some trouble with the Covid-regulations there. And still, basically no one dropped out. Why? Because for once, they need to play for the money, but maybe even more important they worked their asses off for four years to get to that tournament (and yes, some dreams just got crashed by Covid - shitty, but that happens sadly).
SC2 players worked a whole year to get to this event. And while there is a "chance" that they drop out with a positive test, you want them to drop out for sure.
And just on the off-chance players would complain on short notice and ESL had to accomodate them, give everyone the finger that attends the event to watch an empty stage and somehow manage to actually create the space for the players to play from their hotel rooms (in isolation...have fun) - why would they even consider putting up with that in the future? Obviously I don't know the numbers, but I can't imagine ESL is making the big bucks out of SC2 compared to CS:GO or some other ventures they have. So maybe the next offline tourney they cancel paid travel - hey, if you want to go on a strike one day before the event starts, you can atleast pay for your own travels, right? How do you know? Because I can see that none of them protested publicly, atleast not that I can find anything... On February 22 2022 10:33 JJH777 wrote:
I'm certain the players care. Them not protesting probably comes down to a few factors: they only found out on the 9th so not a lot of time to understand the full implications of this rule and react, they don't feel they have any say in it, and they likely have a "it won't happen or at least not to me" mentality like most people do about things of this nature. Hell, that seems to be the mentality ESL took about the worse case scenario of a bracket stage DQ since the only place it's been explained how that will be handled is a Reddit post. And I hope that mentality is proven right and my complaints were for nothing. I doubt it though.
I don't really consider spending a few minutes a few times a day writing a post to be a crusade but the reason I care is because I don't think the worst case scenario is that unlikely and it would ruin the event. That being a player who has already lost getting a COVID DQ related revival and winning the event. I want everyone to know that is a realistic possibility and I hope people would agree that would ruin the competitive integrity of the tournament. Unfortunately it seems most people don't care as you are pointing out. I'm guessing that if it actually comes to pass and especially if it happens to a fan favorite people will care a lot more and in that case I doubt these rules survive to the next offline ESL event.
I'd hope ESL wouldn't be that petty about players standing up for themselves but who knows. Regardless I still think it would be in their best interest, especially the ones who are about to go to military. Can you imagine Zest losing his final chance to make significant money on SC2 due to something outside of his control? A bunch of the KR players are at an age where this might be their last IEM before service. Well, the alternative is what happens in Tennis: If you can't attend your match, it is a defwin for your opponent, so the one you have beaten in the last round won't get your slot. Dunno if you like that more. But I 100% can understand why both players need to attend the stage in person. If one or even two players don't come on the stage, why bother doing it offline at all? Why didn't all of you speak up month ago and demanded an online tournament? Covid would be still a thing, that must have been clear to everyone. ESL doesn't need to be "petty", but they need to consider if they can plan events like this with reliable players. Again, if your players wouldn't be on the same page as you as ESL with the biggest offline event, why bother doing events like this at all? Do an offline tournament instead of online because you hope everyone will be able to play on stage? But I just don't get how anyone can think DQing players when they get infected is the preferrable or more fair choice compared to letting them play from a hotel room.
It’s a good failsafe, one I’d be in favour of.
Katowice being offline and in person is a real high risk, high reward deal. If it goes smoothly, a real high stakes tournament, without ping, and some atmosphere will be a huge boost for those of us who’ve really missed having a true level field and that extra hype.
It however we get even a few forced drop outs, there’ll be a huge asterisk over its competitive merits as the blue ribbon event, and it’ll really kill the hype for many of us. Playing from a hotel room with a camera isn’t too bad as bad options go.
I was on the fence as to the wisdom of going online, the pandemic isn’t as over as some think, complicated by huge international variance. From what others have said Korea’s having a pretty hefty omicron wave and well, as Starcraft goes you couldn’t pick a worse nation for that to be happening.
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On February 22 2022 22:21 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2022 21:54 Balnazza wrote:On February 22 2022 10:19 honorablemacroterran wrote:On February 22 2022 09:14 Balnazza wrote:
As far as I can see, none of the players protested. They probably even knew in advance, just in case. Makes you wonder why they don't protest, huh? Maybe, just maybe, because they also see that there is no real alternative?
btw, in CS:GO, same rules apply for playoffs (every player that gets a positive test this week is out, so two positives in a team and they are out) and CS:GO HAS somewhat of a union, still they don't pressure this rule.
How are you on this crusade, when none of the people actually involved seem to care at all? just as a comparison: Most athletes in the Winter Olympics that just ended were extremly unhappy with the location (China). They also had some trouble with the Covid-regulations there. And still, basically no one dropped out. Why? Because for once, they need to play for the money, but maybe even more important they worked their asses off for four years to get to that tournament (and yes, some dreams just got crashed by Covid - shitty, but that happens sadly).
SC2 players worked a whole year to get to this event. And while there is a "chance" that they drop out with a positive test, you want them to drop out for sure.
And just on the off-chance players would complain on short notice and ESL had to accomodate them, give everyone the finger that attends the event to watch an empty stage and somehow manage to actually create the space for the players to play from their hotel rooms (in isolation...have fun) - why would they even consider putting up with that in the future? Obviously I don't know the numbers, but I can't imagine ESL is making the big bucks out of SC2 compared to CS:GO or some other ventures they have. So maybe the next offline tourney they cancel paid travel - hey, if you want to go on a strike one day before the event starts, you can atleast pay for your own travels, right? How do you know? Because I can see that none of them protested publicly, atleast not that I can find anything... On February 22 2022 10:33 JJH777 wrote:
I'm certain the players care. Them not protesting probably comes down to a few factors: they only found out on the 9th so not a lot of time to understand the full implications of this rule and react, they don't feel they have any say in it, and they likely have a "it won't happen or at least not to me" mentality like most people do about things of this nature. Hell, that seems to be the mentality ESL took about the worse case scenario of a bracket stage DQ since the only place it's been explained how that will be handled is a Reddit post. And I hope that mentality is proven right and my complaints were for nothing. I doubt it though.
I don't really consider spending a few minutes a few times a day writing a post to be a crusade but the reason I care is because I don't think the worst case scenario is that unlikely and it would ruin the event. That being a player who has already lost getting a COVID DQ related revival and winning the event. I want everyone to know that is a realistic possibility and I hope people would agree that would ruin the competitive integrity of the tournament. Unfortunately it seems most people don't care as you are pointing out. I'm guessing that if it actually comes to pass and especially if it happens to a fan favorite people will care a lot more and in that case I doubt these rules survive to the next offline ESL event.
I'd hope ESL wouldn't be that petty about players standing up for themselves but who knows. Regardless I still think it would be in their best interest, especially the ones who are about to go to military. Can you imagine Zest losing his final chance to make significant money on SC2 due to something outside of his control? A bunch of the KR players are at an age where this might be their last IEM before service. Well, the alternative is what happens in Tennis: If you can't attend your match, it is a defwin for your opponent, so the one you have beaten in the last round won't get your slot. Dunno if you like that more. But I 100% can understand why both players need to attend the stage in person. If one or even two players don't come on the stage, why bother doing it offline at all? Why didn't all of you speak up month ago and demanded an online tournament? Covid would be still a thing, that must have been clear to everyone. ESL doesn't need to be "petty", but they need to consider if they can plan events like this with reliable players. Again, if your players wouldn't be on the same page as you as ESL with the biggest offline event, why bother doing events like this at all? Do an offline tournament instead of online because you hope everyone will be able to play on stage? But I just don't get how anyone can think DQing players when they get infected is the preferrable or more fair choice compared to letting them play from a hotel room.
We'll just have to see how it goes. If there are suddenly 10+ players infected they might revisit their stance on this. As Apollo mentioned, all rules are subject to change
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EPT
