EPTIEM Katowice: Schedule, Replacements, COVID Rules - Page 3
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buzz_bender
446 Posts
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Big-t
Austria1351 Posts
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Balnazza
Germany1382 Posts
As far as I know, the thing in CS:GO is, that ropz got tested positive in Warsaw at the FaZe bootcamp, while boombl4 got testes positive while already being in Kattowice. Ropz obv. wasn't allowed to "switch hotels" for isolation, since ESL wants to have some safety meassures that people playing from the hotel are not cheating. I haven't read up on the rules for CS:GO, but as I see it, boombl4 will be able to play in person in playoffs after a seven-day isolation (and a negative test obviously). Buuut since the SC2 tournament only starts next week, someone getting tested positive there wouldn't be able to be cleared before playoffs, just through sheer time-constraints. So in the end, ESL had to make a call. They went with "everyone needs to be on stage for fair conditions". And as long as they follow through with that, I think it is good. Yes, it would suck tremendously if someone misses the tournament because of that, really. But it wouldn't diminish the success of another player. Winning the tournament from a hotel while another guy had the struggle of playing on stage however...maybe you win the tournament with a brilliant foresight call...but was it really foresight or did you just streamsnipe? Who knows? It is just awkward to have one person on stage and one person in an hotel. And honestly, you have to see ESLs point of view: They are trying to sell hype, people pay good money to watch this from the venue and then a guy wins from his hotel and you have just the loser on stage? Awkward. And why the heck are you even in the venue then, could have just watched from home, too. Last but not least: 1)I love that we atleast have one person here who immediately jumped to the conclusion that this is targeting koreans. Yes, finally, the great scheme of ESL comes to fruition! 2)It kinda bugs me how people were begging for and demanding offline tournaments again. Now they get them and they get salty that there are still safety regulations in play? Would you kindly make up your mind please? | ||
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geokilla
Canada8255 Posts
The reason I didn't go to IEM Katowice this time wasn't because I didn't get a vaccine or to retire or something like that, but they said that Omicron is very serious overseas. In fact, recently, there was also a brother around me who went abroad and suffered from Omicron, and of course IEM persuaded me to proceed as safely as possible. My mother's opposition was so strong that I had to abstain. As a gamer, it's a pity that I can't participate in the most important tournament of the year, but I'll take a good rest and prepare well for GSL. Some gamer colleagues also contacted me, and I think there are people who are curious, so I am writing this. | ||
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honorablemacroterran
188 Posts
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tigera6
3516 Posts
On February 18 2022 22:19 Balnazza wrote: Is it just me or are a lot of people here forgetting that there are actual rules and laws in Poland concerning Covid? Like someone said "lul, why not have an isolated booth somewhere"? Because Poland (like most EU states I guess) says "if you are tested positive, you have to go into isolation". As far as I know, the thing in CS:GO is, that ropz got tested positive in Warsaw at the FaZe bootcamp, while boombl4 got testes positive while already being in Kattowice. Ropz obv. wasn't allowed to "switch hotels" for isolation, since ESL wants to have some safety meassures that people playing from the hotel are not cheating. I haven't read up on the rules for CS:GO, but as I see it, boombl4 will be able to play in person in playoffs after a seven-day isolation (and a negative test obviously). Buuut since the SC2 tournament only starts next week, someone getting tested positive there wouldn't be able to be cleared before playoffs, just through sheer time-constraints. So in the end, ESL had to make a call. They went with "everyone needs to be on stage for fair conditions". And as long as they follow through with that, I think it is good. Yes, it would suck tremendously if someone misses the tournament because of that, really. But it wouldn't diminish the success of another player. Winning the tournament from a hotel while another guy had the struggle of playing on stage however...maybe you win the tournament with a brilliant foresight call...but was it really foresight or did you just streamsnipe? Who knows? It is just awkward to have one person on stage and one person in an hotel. And honestly, you have to see ESLs point of view: They are trying to sell hype, people pay good money to watch this from the venue and then a guy wins from his hotel and you have just the loser on stage? Awkward. And why the heck are you even in the venue then, could have just watched from home, too. Last but not least: 1)I love that we atleast have one person here who immediately jumped to the conclusion that this is targeting koreans. Yes, finally, the great scheme of ESL comes to fruition! 2)It kinda bugs me how people were begging for and demanding offline tournaments again. Now they get them and they get salty that there are still safety regulations in play? Would you kindly make up your mind please? Then tell me what is worse than having players forfeiting the tournament upon arrival because of something out of their control? They took the vaccine, wearing mask, following protocol and somehow still get treated like a pandemic threat because the country is slow with their own vaccination. If you dont feel safe? Then take the vaccine yourself, stop taking other people freedom away from themselves after they have done their part. In the US, we have sport players not able to play due to govt mandate because they did NOT take the vaccine, but somehow this event has it the other way around which make absolutely no sense whatsoever. And the problem here also isnt that the tournament is offline itself, its that ESL has done next to NOTHING to ensure that players are able to play at the events. They can try to ask for special permission to set up some semi-bubble for infected players to keep them away from the crowd, hell they can ask player to come 1-week in advance so that they can have their possible quarantine over by the time the tournament start. ESL has done none of that, and acting like player forfeiting has nothing to do with them or something, just shit out of luck? As for the "targeting KR" stuff, its probably just a coincidence because of the high Covid case in recent days in KR, as well as the long travel time from KR to Poland which likely to expose players more to Covid. There is nothing to that dumb conspiracy theory. | ||
Heyoka
Katowice25012 Posts
If anyone does test positive once in Poland, either at the start or mid-way through the event we will require them to stay in isolation in the hotel which is in accordance with local regulations. We looked at how we want to handle this scenario and decided ultimately playing on stage has different playing conditions than alone at home or in a hotel, and for fairness in the competition we need to require all competitors to adhere to the same circumstances there. For reference in CSGO, we have the same ruling but will allow people to compete from the hotel in the earlier group stage which happens mostly in a studio-type environment. The difference there is a week in between playing in groups and on stage in Spodek, so it's actually possible to recover in time to join us in the arena. For SC2 the event is only 5 days in total, so if you get test positive partway through you won't have time to recover before you need to participate on stage. On February 18 2022 02:32 Legan wrote: It is not about what is important for competition. If they, and viewers, really cared only about the competition and fairness, then there would not be an offline event at all really. Instead everyone would just be just flown in to minimize ping. No need to have big event venue for casters, staff, and crowd. Just have everyone be isolated in bunch of hotels for a whole event. However that would make very weird event. Every event we've done in the past 2 years we have evaluated if this is a possibility. We have been ready to fly everyone to a single hotel for purposes of ping and then otherwise produce from a studio as we have otherwise done, it hasn't been possible until now because each time there is a significant portion of the competition who still would have been unable to attend (for example, all players from Korea). | ||
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JJH777
United States4420 Posts
On February 18 2022 22:19 Balnazza wrote: Is it just me or are a lot of people here forgetting that there are actual rules and laws in Poland concerning Covid? Like someone said "lul, why not have an isolated booth somewhere"? Because Poland (like most EU states I guess) says "if you are tested positive, you have to go into isolation". As far as I know, the thing in CS:GO is, that ropz got tested positive in Warsaw at the FaZe bootcamp, while boombl4 got testes positive while already being in Kattowice. Ropz obv. wasn't allowed to "switch hotels" for isolation, since ESL wants to have some safety meassures that people playing from the hotel are not cheating. I haven't read up on the rules for CS:GO, but as I see it, boombl4 will be able to play in person in playoffs after a seven-day isolation (and a negative test obviously). Buuut since the SC2 tournament only starts next week, someone getting tested positive there wouldn't be able to be cleared before playoffs, just through sheer time-constraints. So in the end, ESL had to make a call. They went with "everyone needs to be on stage for fair conditions". And as long as they follow through with that, I think it is good. Yes, it would suck tremendously if someone misses the tournament because of that, really. But it wouldn't diminish the success of another player. Winning the tournament from a hotel while another guy had the struggle of playing on stage however...maybe you win the tournament with a brilliant foresight call...but was it really foresight or did you just streamsnipe? Who knows? It is just awkward to have one person on stage and one person in an hotel. And honestly, you have to see ESLs point of view: They are trying to sell hype, people pay good money to watch this from the venue and then a guy wins from his hotel and you have just the loser on stage? Awkward. And why the heck are you even in the venue then, could have just watched from home, too. Last but not least: 1)I love that we atleast have one person here who immediately jumped to the conclusion that this is targeting koreans. Yes, finally, the great scheme of ESL comes to fruition! 2)It kinda bugs me how people were begging for and demanding offline tournaments again. Now they get them and they get salty that there are still safety regulations in play? Would you kindly make up your mind please? The cheating issues you mentioned are far more of a potential problem at home and all events have been at home for the last 2 years so I'd hope they have some measures against them. Seems solvable with a camera to monitor the player and software that monitors what you currently have on your PC screen. I don't agree that one person playing in front of a crowd is that big of a disadvantage. Both still have to deal with jetlag, the general stress of travel, and an unusual playing setup. As for targeting Koreans I don't think this policy was designed specifically for them but there is no doubt that it is more likely to have an impact on them than others. I also have trouble believing one of the big 3 EU players will ever get DQ'D from this event. Begging for offline is purely (at least for me) due to ping issues which have a far bigger effect on gameplay than any other factor. There would still be no ping with someone playing from the hotel. | ||
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honorablemacroterran
188 Posts
Keep in mind that the circumstance of them testing positive is entirely outside of their control and a risk that you yourselves have encouraged them to take. In this scenario they have no choice to "adhere" to anything, so your choice of words is rather strange indeed. | ||
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Lokol18
51 Posts
On February 19 2022 01:01 honorablemacroterran wrote: "We need all players to adhere to the same circumstances there." Keep in mind that the circumstance of them testing positive is entirely outside of their control and a risk that you yourselves have encouraged them to take. In this scenario they have no choice to "adhere" to anything, so your choice of words is rather strange indeed. I like how the esl person who responded in the thread didn't actually address this point. This to me is the biggest issue: imo esl is creating the harm (exposing players to covid due to traveling) and then creating a rule that has a reasonable probability of excluding the very same players they harmed | ||
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JJH777
United States4420 Posts
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Drfilip
Sweden592 Posts
On February 19 2022 01:01 honorablemacroterran wrote: "We need all players to adhere to the same circumstances there." Keep in mind that the circumstance of them testing positive is entirely outside of their control and a risk that you yourselves have encouraged them to take. In this scenario they have no choice to "adhere" to anything, so your choice of words is rather strange indeed. Testing positive is as outside of the players' control as getting any disease, getting hurt in an accident, getting traumatised by a scary event etc. It is just the most likely to be infected with covid right now. The pandemic is as real as 9/11. Airports are way more into security now compared to before 9/11, and testing positive is a big deal even if the symptoms for the individual might not be severe. These isolations are the current normal. It is affecting IEM. ESL has made rules to both follow local regulations and to be fair for the players eligible to play. It could have been done in many different ways, each with downsides. This is what we have and it is too late to change without other, bigger, things changing first. This might be The Biggest Tournament of SC2, but it is just a sports event. The pandemic is bigger, Poland's politics is bigger. ESL will have to learn from this. There will be more pandemics and, hopefully, professional SC2 will remain. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
A free win, or an easier opponent due to dropouts, are the biggest unfair advantages you can literally ever get. | ||
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honorablemacroterran
188 Posts
On February 18 2022 22:19 Balnazza wrote: Yes, it would suck tremendously if someone misses the tournament because of that, really. But it wouldn't diminish the success of another player. It absolutely would diminish the winner's title if a top contender ends up getting DQ'd. The World Championship would be scuffed at least in the eyes of many. I think this is a feel-good statement that doesn't actually make any sense because there would be no championship if there were no opponents, and so you can see the legitimacy of the championship is derived by the strength of those who competed and didn't win. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1382 Posts
On February 19 2022 07:22 honorablemacroterran wrote: It absolutely would diminish the winner's title if a top contender ends up getting DQ'd. The World Championship would be scuffed at least in the eyes of many. I think this is a feel-good statement that doesn't actually make any sense because there would be no championship if there were no opponents, and so you can see the legitimacy of the championship is derived by the strength of those who competed and didn't win. Okay so if one of the topdogs breaks his hand tomorrow, the winner of IEM will be not worthy and the title holds no value "in the eyes of many"? Good to know! | ||
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vyzion
308 Posts
Questions: 1. Is it possible to have an isolated room for a non-sick competitor? This way, if a competitor tests positive, then can we ask the negative competitor to compete in the isolated room so they do have a similar environment? There would probably only need to be 1 or 2 isolated rooms for non-sick competitors right? They can share, since they're not sick. 2. If #1 is possible, what can we as normies do to help make that happen? 3. If #1 is not possible, is there anything we can do to make it possible for sick competitors to compete no matter what? CS:GO is different since it's team based, but SC is solo so there is flexibility there. Logistics: 1. Negative isolated room is ideally somewhere in the venue 2a. Positive isolated room = the person's hotel room...so there would need to be some kind of prepackaged computer system and a delivery person which would happen on the first day of arrival after they test. Drop off would be like dropping off food...have someone bring up the equipment, knock door, then immediately leave. Have player setup internet, tweak settings, etc. before tournaments start 2b. For pick up, leave the computer in the room for a whole day (or more) for the virus to settle onto surfaces then have someone well protected disinfect the room and equipment with alcohol spray (at least 40%), disinfect the computer, bag it up, and bring it back in an isolated area for a few more days after use. Omicron can be disinfected within 15 seconds if you use an alcohol spray with 40% or more (https://www.newsweek.com/how-long-does-omicron-last-surfaces-does-disinfectant-kill-covid-variant-1677158) Find polish equivalent of disinfectant service: https://www.alliance-enviro.com/covid-19/ 2c. Create checklist to deal with potential technical problems and hope for the best at this point. If technical issues persist, then competitor is DQ'd, but at least we tried. Cost: TBD but it sounds potentially very expensive...but IMO worthwhile for a better experience. Could be room to offset costs with sponsorships. For example, perhaps a disinfectant company gets to put up banners locally for a discount, or gets an introduction to the venue's management. Legalities: TBD but this may violate some Polish law. Outsourcing disinfectant service to a professional company removes liabilities on ESL employees. Reputational Risks: If a player decides to cheat somehow, the fallout will not be on ESL, but the player themself. ESL tried to accommodate in this scenario to please the players and fans by allowing all players to participate no matter what. EDIT: my **GUESS** is that non-sick competitors wouldn't mind doing #1 as long as it's not disruptive and they're informed ahead of time? The players and community seem to be generally fair and open minded and there seems to be enough trust and respect for one another. EDIT #2: added suggestions on logistics, costs, and legalities On February 19 2022 00:31 Heyoka wrote: Hey everyone, apologies for not jumping in here sooner but I'm responsible for the SC2 competition at IEM Katowice and can speak to some of the questions. As it mentions most players need to take a test to travel, and once in Poland to get into the player/production/etc areas we need everyone to show proof of a recent negative test. If anyone does test positive once in Poland, either at the start or mid-way through the event we will require them to stay in isolation in the hotel which is in accordance with local regulations. We looked at how we want to handle this scenario and decided ultimately playing on stage has different playing conditions than alone at home or in a hotel, and for fairness in the competition we need to require all competitors to adhere to the same circumstances there. For reference in CSGO, we have the same ruling but will allow people to compete from the hotel in the earlier group stage which happens mostly in a studio-type environment. The difference there is a week in between playing in groups and on stage in Spodek, so it's actually possible to recover in time to join us in the arena. For SC2 the event is only 5 days in total, so if you get test positive partway through you won't have time to recover before you need to participate on stage. Every event we've done in the past 2 years we have evaluated if this is a possibility. We have been ready to fly everyone to a single hotel for purposes of ping and then otherwise produce from a studio as we have otherwise done, it hasn't been possible until now because each time there is a significant portion of the competition who still would have been unable to attend (for example, all players from Korea). | ||
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honorablemacroterran
188 Posts
On February 19 2022 09:18 Balnazza wrote: Okay so if one of the topdogs breaks his hand tomorrow, the winner of IEM will be not worthy and the title holds no value "in the eyes of many"? Good to know! That is a strawman of what I said. I said it would be diminished, not have no value. And yes, if Serral randomly broke his hand before IEM I am sure that a lot of people would remember it differently than if he got eliminated by the video game. | ||
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
I mean, if anyone does get sick, that really sucks. But randomly switching online or breaking Polish law don't seem like especially useful ways of dealing with that (at this point purely hypothetical) situation. | ||
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vyzion
308 Posts
On February 19 2022 10:29 QOGQOG wrote: I don't really see what everyone's freaking out over. It's an in-person event and due to (perfectly reasonable) local laws, people who are infected can't participate in-person. That's that. I mean, if anyone does get sick, that really sucks. But randomly switching online or breaking Polish law don't seem like especially useful ways of dealing with that (at this point purely hypothetical) situation. I agree and overall I'm just happy the event is happening. However, it'd be amazing if all players end up playing and if there are ways to make that more likely then let's try to make it happen. I do grow tired of all the useless debating and theorycrafting though. I put together some thoughts a few comments above on some potential steps ESL could take. | ||
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JJH777
United States4420 Posts
On February 19 2022 10:29 QOGQOG wrote: I don't really see what everyone's freaking out over. It's an in-person event and due to (perfectly reasonable) local laws, people who are infected can't participate in-person. That's that. I mean, if anyone does get sick, that really sucks. But randomly switching online or breaking Polish law don't seem like especially useful ways of dealing with that (at this point purely hypothetical) situation. You ignored the 3rd option where there are no laws being broken and it's not switched to online. Anyone that makes it to Poland can play from their hotel room. Unless you are counting that as online but by that logic all SC2 tournaments are online because there is no LAN. | ||
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