ESL have announced the official IEM Katowice 2022 schedule. The tournament will run for five days between February 23rd and February 27th. The most notable change from 2021 is that the RO24 group stage will be played over two days instead of four, with two groups played per day (this is the same as previous IEM Katowice tournaments that were held offline).
Schedule:
Feb 23: RO36 play-in stage
Feb 24: RO24: Groups A & B
Feb 25: RO24: Groups C & D
Feb 26: Playoffs: RO12 and RO8
Feb 27: Playoffs: RO4 and grand finals
All start times are 10:00 GMT (+00:00), except Feb 27 which will start at 09:00 GMT (+00:00)
"Armani has confirmed he is unable to attend and Ryung has accepted the invite as the next player available from the Korea standings.
Update:Cyan and TIME have been approved for visas to travel to Katowice (ESL Tweet).
TIME and Cyan are awaiting a final decision from local authorities, anticipated this week.
If TIME is unable to attend: An additional slot will open in the Ro24 with the procedure outlined above.
If Cyan is unable to attend: Due to the time remaining ahead of the tournament and as our rules outline a replacement from Europe the next in line is uThermal."
ESL have also announced the COVID protocols for the event. The most notable ramification of the protocols is that a player testing positive for COVID—and thus required to quarantine for seven days due to Polish regulations—will be unable to participate in the event.[Read full announcement]
From the protocols page:
"While in Katowice
In Poland, a positive COVID-19 test currently means a mandatory 7-day isolation period (should the authorities change this rule, teams will be informed). Fully vaccinated close contacts do not need to be isolated.
Should a player show symptoms, a manager or ESL representative may request an additional test at any time. A test may also be requested if required for departure back to the respective home country.
Specifics Related to Competition
It will not be possible to play out of isolation due to the vast difference in the tournament environment (i.e. spectators, loud cheering, stage audio system, etc). All players will be required to be on stage and any player which may be positive and in isolation will not be allowed to continue the competition.
We reserve the right to review these decisions based on the situation relating to COVID-19 at the time of the play-off stages."
Players are required to take PCR tests 24 hours before travel to Katowice and at least once upon arrival at the event according to ESL's IEM Katowice protocols page.
Imagine disqualifying a top contender because they test positive and have to quarantine when you decided to make it in-person yourselves. One of the big tests for the players this year will be managing to avoid getting infected by one of the most transmissible viruses of all time while traveling to Katowice and being exposed to people all over the world.
This is, quite frankly, idiotic, and if comes into play this IEM will forever have an asterisk next to it.
You should be ashamed if you induce someone to travel across the world to compete in a tournament in person, causing them to get infected, and then you bar them from playing from isolation even if they are physically able or unsymptomatic.
The way I see it, if players can make it to Poland, they should all be able to compete no matter what happens with COVID test results. Whether or not they end up playing from isolation is by far the lesser of two evils here, compared to potentially disqualifying most of the participants from playing even if they feel perfectly healthy.
The biggest problem with online competitions is latency. If everyone's in Poland, that's not a problem anymore. All players should be given the opportunity to compete that they have worked very hard to obtain, and even a competition with some players playing from isolation is a lot more fair than any online competition.
In addition to covid potentially messing up a bracket... the regional instability right now could impact our tournament as well. Been waiting for kato for a while and really looking forward to it. Hope nothing crazy happens so we can enjoy our little tourney
On February 18 2022 01:48 TheLordofAwesome wrote: The way I see it, if players can make it to Poland, they should all be able to compete no matter what happens with COVID test results. Whether or not they end up playing from isolation is by far the lesser of two evils here, compared to potentially disqualifying most of the participants from playing even if they feel perfectly healthy.
The biggest problem with online competitions is latency. If everyone's in Poland, that's not a problem anymore. All players should be given the opportunity to compete that they have worked very hard to obtain, and even a competition with some players playing from isolation is a lot more fair than any online competition.
100% I can't imagine being so callous to force people to play on the stage after they have invested so much to be there. For what?
At this point, ESL is just better off making IEM an online event, with so many potential way that Covid could screw up the organization plan of the event. I assume that most player will probably self-quarantine for 7-10 days before traveling to limit their chance of getting the virus. Hopefully we wont have any regrettable case this tournament, imagine missing any of top players just because they strictly follow the local mandate to take the vaccine but that doesnt matter because the vaccine does stop people from getting the virus.
Is the day off in the middle typical for IEM? I'm pretty disappointed by that. I thought I'd be able to get up early on Saturday and Sunday and catch most of the playoffs live but with Saturday being skipped I'll only be able to watch Sunday live and will miss the championship day.
On February 18 2022 02:03 JJH777 wrote: Is the day off in the middle typical for IEM? I'm pretty disappointed by that. I thought I'd be able to get up early on Saturday and Sunday and catch most of the playoffs live but with Saturday being skipped I'll only be able to watch Sunday live and will miss the championship day.
What day off? 26th is ro12 + ro8 and it's saturday
On February 18 2022 02:03 JJH777 wrote: Is the day off in the middle typical for IEM? I'm pretty disappointed by that. I thought I'd be able to get up early on Saturday and Sunday and catch most of the playoffs live but with Saturday being skipped I'll only be able to watch Sunday live and will miss the championship day.
I missed that part. Wow. I'm sure this is going to nerf the audience size, good job ESL!
On February 18 2022 02:03 JJH777 wrote: Is the day off in the middle typical for IEM? I'm pretty disappointed by that. I thought I'd be able to get up early on Saturday and Sunday and catch most of the playoffs live but with Saturday being skipped I'll only be able to watch Sunday live and will miss the championship day.
What day off? 26th is ro12 + ro8 and it's saturday
While the decisions IEM made aren't the decisions I would've made, I'm happy to have an offline SC2 tournament. Fingers crossed as few people come down with COVID as possible.
On February 18 2022 02:03 JJH777 wrote: Is the day off in the middle typical for IEM? I'm pretty disappointed by that. I thought I'd be able to get up early on Saturday and Sunday and catch most of the playoffs live but with Saturday being skipped I'll only be able to watch Sunday live and will miss the championship day.
I missed that part. Wow. I'm sure this is going to nerf the audience size, good job ESL!
On February 18 2022 02:03 JJH777 wrote: Is the day off in the middle typical for IEM? I'm pretty disappointed by that. I thought I'd be able to get up early on Saturday and Sunday and catch most of the playoffs live but with Saturday being skipped I'll only be able to watch Sunday live and will miss the championship day.
What day off? 26th is ro12 + ro8 and it's saturday
Look at the text above the image in OP.
Pretty sure it's a typo, liquipedia also says 26th is ro12 + ro8 (IEM Katowice/2022 )
On February 18 2022 02:03 JJH777 wrote: Is the day off in the middle typical for IEM? I'm pretty disappointed by that. I thought I'd be able to get up early on Saturday and Sunday and catch most of the playoffs live but with Saturday being skipped I'll only be able to watch Sunday live and will miss the championship day.
What day off? 26th is ro12 + ro8 and it's saturday
The list of dates under the title Schedule has got the final 2 days as 27th and 28th, with nothing on 26th.
On February 18 2022 01:26 TL.net ESPORTS wrote: Schedule:
Feb 23: RO36 play-in stage
Feb 24: RO24: Groups A & B
Feb 25: RO24: Groups C & D
Feb 27: Playoffs: RO12 and RO8
Feb 28: Playoffs: RO4 and grand finals
All start times are 10:00 GMT (+00:00), except Feb 28 which will start at 09:00 GMT (+00:00)
It's not like playing from a shitty hotel with covid offers much / any advantage to playing onstage. It'd be better not to completely DQ them if they test positive. This isn't run on LAN anyway is it?
Of course it would be better to allow the isolated players to continue playing, but it could lead to very funny situations. The funniest thing to happen would be having the isolated player win important match or even the whole tournament, while only the defeated player is on the stage with crowd cheering the isolated player, that can't participate in ceremonies etc. at all.
On February 18 2022 02:18 Legan wrote: Of course it would be better to allow the isolated players to continue playing, but it could lead to very funny situations. The funniest thing to happen would be having the isolated player win important match or even the whole tournament, while only the defeated player is on the stage with crowd cheering the isolated player, that can't participate in ceremonies etc. at all.
Imagine thinking this is most important and not the legitimacy of the world championship title.
On February 18 2022 02:03 JJH777 wrote: Is the day off in the middle typical for IEM? I'm pretty disappointed by that. I thought I'd be able to get up early on Saturday and Sunday and catch most of the playoffs live but with Saturday being skipped I'll only be able to watch Sunday live and will miss the championship day.
What day off? 26th is ro12 + ro8 and it's saturday
The list of dates under the title Schedule has got the final 2 days as 27th and 28th, with nothing on 26th.
On February 18 2022 02:18 Legan wrote: Of course it would be better to allow the isolated players to continue playing, but it could lead to very funny situations. The funniest thing to happen would be having the isolated player win important match or even the whole tournament, while only the defeated player is on the stage with crowd cheering the isolated player, that can't participate in ceremonies etc. at all.
Imagine thinking this is most important and not the legitimacy of the world championship title.
It is not about what is important for competition. If they, and viewers, really cared only about the competition and fairness, then there would not be an offline event at all really. Instead everyone would just be just flown in to minimize ping. No need to have big event venue for casters, staff, and crowd. Just have everyone be isolated in bunch of hotels for a whole event. However that would make very weird event.
On February 18 2022 02:20 honorablemacroterran wrote:
On February 18 2022 02:18 Legan wrote: Of course it would be better to allow the isolated players to continue playing, but it could lead to very funny situations. The funniest thing to happen would be having the isolated player win important match or even the whole tournament, while only the defeated player is on the stage with crowd cheering the isolated player, that can't participate in ceremonies etc. at all.
Imagine thinking this is most important and not the legitimacy of the world championship title.
It is not about what is important for competition. If they, and viewers, really cared only about the competition and fairness, then there would not be an offline event at all really. Instead everyone would just be just flown in to minimize ping. No need to have big event venue for casters, staff, and crowd. Just have everyone be isolated in bunch of hotels for a whole event. However that would make very weird event.
If anyone cares more about someone physically lifting up a trophy in front of the crowd than the fairness of the competition, I can't help but think less of them.
Even though I am really looking forward to this, I can't help but think what an unfair prize pool distribution this is. Why not support everyone who qualifies for Katowice? Instead of pouring ~50% of the entire prize money into just the top-2 players?
On February 18 2022 02:20 honorablemacroterran wrote:
On February 18 2022 02:18 Legan wrote: Of course it would be better to allow the isolated players to continue playing, but it could lead to very funny situations. The funniest thing to happen would be having the isolated player win important match or even the whole tournament, while only the defeated player is on the stage with crowd cheering the isolated player, that can't participate in ceremonies etc. at all.
Imagine thinking this is most important and not the legitimacy of the world championship title.
It is not about what is important for competition. If they, and viewers, really cared only about the competition and fairness, then there would not be an offline event at all really. Instead everyone would just be just flown in to minimize ping. No need to have big event venue for casters, staff, and crowd. Just have everyone be isolated in bunch of hotels for a whole event. However that would make very weird event.
Exactly. Competitions are for entertainment and they are not rigorous scientific experiments to find the best player or otherwise, we would probably need a sample size of like 50-100 games for statistically significant results.
Do you think it's fair if someone tests positive after spending a week in Katowice because they were there only to play the tournament and then the tournament disqualifies them from competing?
I know recent chess tournaments have had similar issues with people not being able to play matches because they got COVID. One of them was even in Poland iirc.
Considering starcraft isn't played "over the board" like chess I think a work around that lets COVID positive players play is easily possible though. I can understand the staff working the event not wanting to come into contact with players with COVID, but some isolated "COVID booth" somewhere in the studio is feasible, even if it would necessarily be less well equipped for broadcasting. Lower production quality because one player is in some dingy corner of the studio would suck, but I think viewers would object more to top contenders not being able to play.
I'm also super confused why they would DQ someone if they got Covid once they get there.
I mean surely one could play on a laptop from their hotel room across the street? I feel like 2 years into this thing we would have figured it out. That or it will be like the Olympic where no one has Covid all of the sudden by magic.
Maybe there's some legal stuff barring them for doing so IDK.
Glad to see the skipped day was just a typo. I didn't even look at the Twitter image and just assumed it was the same oops.
I agree with the consensus in here that it would be dumb to DQ someone who made it to Poland. If they get COVID before that and can't travel then they obviously need to be DQ'd unfortunately but if they are in the same city surely there is a different solution. What if someone gets COVID after winning their group? Are they really going to be DQ'D?
I'm sure many of your complaints are valid but from my perspective after running companies and experience with producing international live events (comparable to Katowice), there are a lot of complexities right now and getting these things right is much harder than it may seem from the outside.
On that note, I think they are doing a good job and I'm very grateful that the event is happening. Extra grateful that Cyan and Time can make it too!
Now if only MaxPax didn't decline...that'd be the cherry on top.
Does anyone know approx what the end time of the shows should be? I'd like to watch the full SC2 events but I'm trying to organise a social engagement around it.
I guess Sunday should be 4ish latest based on Finals starting at 2:15 but I can't see what rounds are played on Friday vs Saturday.
On February 18 2022 04:39 Haighstrom wrote: Does anyone know approx what the end time of the shows should be? I'd like to watch the full SC2 events but I'm trying to organise a social engagement around it.
I guess Sunday should be 4ish latest based on Finals starting at 2:15 but I can't see what rounds are played on Friday vs Saturday.
Friday, 25th, has got the end of group stages. Saturday, 26th, has got ro12 and ro8. That is 4+4 matches of first to 3 wins.
The picture has that explicitly written out, the written schedule also says that.
On February 18 2022 04:39 Haighstrom wrote: Does anyone know approx what the end time of the shows should be? I'd like to watch the full SC2 events but I'm trying to organise a social engagement around it.
I guess Sunday should be 4ish latest based on Finals starting at 2:15 but I can't see what rounds are played on Friday vs Saturday.
going by previous tournaments, I'd say all the days before the finals will be like 8~10 hour affairs
maybe some ppl forgot during the online era, but live SC2 events have LOOONG days
I think a lot of Korean players are going to be forced to drop out. Korea is exploding with COVID right now. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of players are asymptomatic. I know this is happening with CS:GO.
On February 18 2022 05:52 geokilla wrote: I think a lot of Korean players are going to be forced to drop out. Korea is exploding with COVID right now. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of players are asymptomatic. I know this is happening with CS:GO.
Yeah, the league of legends circuit is being hit HARD. But mind you, they live together in team-houses and in generally more populated environments. Hopefully, if pros are being cautious, they should be able to self-quarantine and minimize their risk ahead of travel (though obv the airport/plane portion of travel itself is a risk).
On February 18 2022 05:52 geokilla wrote: I think a lot of Korean players are going to be forced to drop out. Korea is exploding with COVID right now. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of players are asymptomatic. I know this is happening with CS:GO.
Yeah, the league of legends circuit is being hit HARD. But mind you, they live together in team-houses and in generally more populated environments. Hopefully, if pros are being cautious, they should be able to self-quarantine and minimize their risk ahead of travel (though obv the airport/plane portion of travel itself is a risk).
I don't think it'll go as smoothly as youthink. Just look at CS:GO.
Hey guys,
Please see our COVID19 processes and protocols regarding IEM Katowice article which we released before the tournament.
For clarification on the topic of ropz vs Boombl4 COVID19 case.
Every player is required to provide a negative PCR test before arriving in the player hotel. Ropz tested positive on the pre-arrival PCR test, whilst boombl4 tested negative which meant he could enter the ESL group.
All players and staff whilst on site with us have the right to request additional testing should they have concerns or feel unwell. Boombl4 requested this, and the result came back positive.
As he is already within the ESL group, he is now isolated in a single room which is connected to our tournament set up meaning the player can continue to play in the tournament.
How is this fair? Ropz is unable to play while Boombl4 is. What if we had players like Maru or Rogue testing positive prior to boarding the plane but then HeroMarine is positive only after he arrives at IEM. Maru and Rogue are automatically disqualified while HeroMarine isn't, assuming they all recover before Katowice starts. My understanding is if you are COVID positive, you'll test positive on PCR for a long time after:
Because the PCR test is so sensitive, it can detect very small amounts of virus material. This means that the test can continue to detect fragments of SARS-CoV-2 virus even after you’ve recovered from COVID-19 and are no longer contagious. So you may continue to test positive if you've had COVID-19 in the distant past, even though you can’t spread the SARS-CoV-2 virus to others.
On February 18 2022 05:52 geokilla wrote: I think a lot of Korean players are going to be forced to drop out. Korea is exploding with COVID right now. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of players are asymptomatic. I know this is happening with CS:GO.
Yeah, the league of legends circuit is being hit HARD. But mind you, they live together in team-houses and in generally more populated environments. Hopefully, if pros are being cautious, they should be able to self-quarantine and minimize their risk ahead of travel (though obv the airport/plane portion of travel itself is a risk).
I don't think it'll go as smoothly as youthink. Just look at CS:GO.
Please see our COVID19 processes and protocols regarding IEM Katowice article which we released before the tournament.
For clarification on the topic of ropz vs Boombl4 COVID19 case.
Every player is required to provide a negative PCR test before arriving in the player hotel. Ropz tested positive on the pre-arrival PCR test, whilst boombl4 tested negative which meant he could enter the ESL group.
All players and staff whilst on site with us have the right to request additional testing should they have concerns or feel unwell. Boombl4 requested this, and the result came back positive.
As he is already within the ESL group, he is now isolated in a single room which is connected to our tournament set up meaning the player can continue to play in the tournament.
How is this fair? Ropz is unable to play while Boombl4 is. What if we had players like Maru or Rogue testing positive prior to boarding the plane but then HeroMarine is positive only after he arrives at IEM. Maru and Rogue are automatically disqualified while HeroMarine isn't, assuming they all recover before Katowice starts. My understanding is if you are COVID positive, you'll test positive on PCR for a long time after:
Because the PCR test is so sensitive, it can detect very small amounts of virus material. This means that the test can continue to detect fragments of SARS-CoV-2 virus even after you’ve recovered from COVID-19 and are no longer contagious. So you may continue to test positive if you've had COVID-19 in the distant past, even though you can’t spread the SARS-CoV-2 virus to others.
By my reading of the CSGO rules, IEM only allowed this exception in CSGO for play-in and group stage. For the playoffs, all positive players cannot play. From my reading of the SC2 rules, any positive test is a DQ, regardless of timing (check the CSGO page vs the SC2 page). Yes, this raises another series of questions.
Korea reported 90,000 covid cases today lol. This is so fucked. If you can't beat em in skill just DQ them I guess? The KR players that make it to Poland have a high chance of testing positive on arrival. It's so dumb that they won't be allowed to play from their hotel as if the crowd is that big of a factor. Jetlag and lack of ping are far more important and both of those will still be effecting KR players. ESL needs to release a rule change before the event starts allowing anyone who makes it to Poland to play even if they test positive after that.
I'm also scared we might have a whole bunch of DQs as well. Hopefully all the Koreans (and tbh everyone else) are just hunkering in their apartment.
Also agree that if they get sick during the competition, especially during playoffs, that they should be able to play from their hotel room or from a special Covid room or something. Why can't ESL set up the latter?
Imagine you are Maru/Rogue/Dark/Zest, traveling tens of thousand of km to an event, only to get tested positive and get to watch the whole thing from the hotel and see someone else raising the trophy while there is absolutely NOTHING you can do about it. The whole positive testing and 7-days isolation is great at the beginning when there were not a lot of vaccination option. Now with most of the population vaccinated, this becomes obsolete and redundant, especially when they can create a semi-bubble for the players, let them stay away from the crowd and other personnel during the event, its totally do-able if you put effort into it. Hopefully I am not jinxing it, but I am really concerned right now.
On February 18 2022 11:30 tigera6 wrote: ... The whole positive testing and 7-days isolation is great at the beginning when there were not a lot of vaccination option. Now with most of the population vaccinated, this becomes obsolete and redundant, especially when they can create a semi-bubble for the players, let them stay away from the crowd and other personnel during the event, its totally do-able if you put effort into it. ...
Maybe you don't know it: Poland has an alarmingly low vaccination rate. Just little more than 50% of the population is fully vaccinated. Additionally Poland has overcrowded hospitals and ICUs. So an offline tourney in Kattowice is quite questionable for itself. It might have been a lot wiser to do it elsewhere - bit now it is as it is, even if DQing is necessary to obey to polish rules for sports events.
I think it is a good idea to try the event in person. Would love to see a set up where infected people could play from quarantine, but I can see the problems. I assume some infections will happen and hope they won’t be in the play offs on Saturday or Sunday.
Is it just me or are a lot of people here forgetting that there are actual rules and laws in Poland concerning Covid? Like someone said "lul, why not have an isolated booth somewhere"? Because Poland (like most EU states I guess) says "if you are tested positive, you have to go into isolation". As far as I know, the thing in CS:GO is, that ropz got tested positive in Warsaw at the FaZe bootcamp, while boombl4 got testes positive while already being in Kattowice. Ropz obv. wasn't allowed to "switch hotels" for isolation, since ESL wants to have some safety meassures that people playing from the hotel are not cheating. I haven't read up on the rules for CS:GO, but as I see it, boombl4 will be able to play in person in playoffs after a seven-day isolation (and a negative test obviously). Buuut since the SC2 tournament only starts next week, someone getting tested positive there wouldn't be able to be cleared before playoffs, just through sheer time-constraints.
So in the end, ESL had to make a call. They went with "everyone needs to be on stage for fair conditions". And as long as they follow through with that, I think it is good. Yes, it would suck tremendously if someone misses the tournament because of that, really. But it wouldn't diminish the success of another player. Winning the tournament from a hotel while another guy had the struggle of playing on stage however...maybe you win the tournament with a brilliant foresight call...but was it really foresight or did you just streamsnipe? Who knows? It is just awkward to have one person on stage and one person in an hotel. And honestly, you have to see ESLs point of view: They are trying to sell hype, people pay good money to watch this from the venue and then a guy wins from his hotel and you have just the loser on stage? Awkward. And why the heck are you even in the venue then, could have just watched from home, too.
Last but not least: 1)I love that we atleast have one person here who immediately jumped to the conclusion that this is targeting koreans. Yes, finally, the great scheme of ESL comes to fruition! 2)It kinda bugs me how people were begging for and demanding offline tournaments again. Now they get them and they get salty that there are still safety regulations in play? Would you kindly make up your mind please?
The reason I didn't go to IEM Katowice this time wasn't because I didn't get a vaccine or to retire or something like that, but they said that Omicron is very serious overseas. In fact, recently, there was also a brother around me who went abroad and suffered from Omicron, and of course IEM persuaded me to proceed as safely as possible.
My mother's opposition was so strong that I had to abstain. As a gamer, it's a pity that I can't participate in the most important tournament of the year, but I'll take a good rest and prepare well for GSL. Some gamer colleagues also contacted me, and I think there are people who are curious, so I am writing this.
I think what all the people defending ESL's idiotic decision are missing is that the most likely way any player would get a COVID infection is traveling to the event.
On February 18 2022 22:19 Balnazza wrote: Is it just me or are a lot of people here forgetting that there are actual rules and laws in Poland concerning Covid? Like someone said "lul, why not have an isolated booth somewhere"? Because Poland (like most EU states I guess) says "if you are tested positive, you have to go into isolation". As far as I know, the thing in CS:GO is, that ropz got tested positive in Warsaw at the FaZe bootcamp, while boombl4 got testes positive while already being in Kattowice. Ropz obv. wasn't allowed to "switch hotels" for isolation, since ESL wants to have some safety meassures that people playing from the hotel are not cheating. I haven't read up on the rules for CS:GO, but as I see it, boombl4 will be able to play in person in playoffs after a seven-day isolation (and a negative test obviously). Buuut since the SC2 tournament only starts next week, someone getting tested positive there wouldn't be able to be cleared before playoffs, just through sheer time-constraints.
So in the end, ESL had to make a call. They went with "everyone needs to be on stage for fair conditions". And as long as they follow through with that, I think it is good. Yes, it would suck tremendously if someone misses the tournament because of that, really. But it wouldn't diminish the success of another player. Winning the tournament from a hotel while another guy had the struggle of playing on stage however...maybe you win the tournament with a brilliant foresight call...but was it really foresight or did you just streamsnipe? Who knows? It is just awkward to have one person on stage and one person in an hotel. And honestly, you have to see ESLs point of view: They are trying to sell hype, people pay good money to watch this from the venue and then a guy wins from his hotel and you have just the loser on stage? Awkward. And why the heck are you even in the venue then, could have just watched from home, too.
Last but not least: 1)I love that we atleast have one person here who immediately jumped to the conclusion that this is targeting koreans. Yes, finally, the great scheme of ESL comes to fruition! 2)It kinda bugs me how people were begging for and demanding offline tournaments again. Now they get them and they get salty that there are still safety regulations in play? Would you kindly make up your mind please?
Then tell me what is worse than having players forfeiting the tournament upon arrival because of something out of their control? They took the vaccine, wearing mask, following protocol and somehow still get treated like a pandemic threat because the country is slow with their own vaccination. If you dont feel safe? Then take the vaccine yourself, stop taking other people freedom away from themselves after they have done their part. In the US, we have sport players not able to play due to govt mandate because they did NOT take the vaccine, but somehow this event has it the other way around which make absolutely no sense whatsoever. And the problem here also isnt that the tournament is offline itself, its that ESL has done next to NOTHING to ensure that players are able to play at the events. They can try to ask for special permission to set up some semi-bubble for infected players to keep them away from the crowd, hell they can ask player to come 1-week in advance so that they can have their possible quarantine over by the time the tournament start. ESL has done none of that, and acting like player forfeiting has nothing to do with them or something, just shit out of luck? As for the "targeting KR" stuff, its probably just a coincidence because of the high Covid case in recent days in KR, as well as the long travel time from KR to Poland which likely to expose players more to Covid. There is nothing to that dumb conspiracy theory.
Hey everyone, apologies for not jumping in here sooner but I'm responsible for the SC2 competition at IEM Katowice and can speak to some of the questions. As it mentions most players need to take a test to travel, and once in Poland to get into the player/production/etc areas we need everyone to show proof of a recent negative test.
If anyone does test positive once in Poland, either at the start or mid-way through the event we will require them to stay in isolation in the hotel which is in accordance with local regulations. We looked at how we want to handle this scenario and decided ultimately playing on stage has different playing conditions than alone at home or in a hotel, and for fairness in the competition we need to require all competitors to adhere to the same circumstances there.
For reference in CSGO, we have the same ruling but will allow people to compete from the hotel in the earlier group stage which happens mostly in a studio-type environment. The difference there is a week in between playing in groups and on stage in Spodek, so it's actually possible to recover in time to join us in the arena. For SC2 the event is only 5 days in total, so if you get test positive partway through you won't have time to recover before you need to participate on stage.
On February 18 2022 02:20 honorablemacroterran wrote:
On February 18 2022 02:18 Legan wrote: Of course it would be better to allow the isolated players to continue playing, but it could lead to very funny situations. The funniest thing to happen would be having the isolated player win important match or even the whole tournament, while only the defeated player is on the stage with crowd cheering the isolated player, that can't participate in ceremonies etc. at all.
Imagine thinking this is most important and not the legitimacy of the world championship title.
It is not about what is important for competition. If they, and viewers, really cared only about the competition and fairness, then there would not be an offline event at all really. Instead everyone would just be just flown in to minimize ping. No need to have big event venue for casters, staff, and crowd. Just have everyone be isolated in bunch of hotels for a whole event. However that would make very weird event.
Every event we've done in the past 2 years we have evaluated if this is a possibility. We have been ready to fly everyone to a single hotel for purposes of ping and then otherwise produce from a studio as we have otherwise done, it hasn't been possible until now because each time there is a significant portion of the competition who still would have been unable to attend (for example, all players from Korea).
On February 18 2022 22:19 Balnazza wrote: Is it just me or are a lot of people here forgetting that there are actual rules and laws in Poland concerning Covid? Like someone said "lul, why not have an isolated booth somewhere"? Because Poland (like most EU states I guess) says "if you are tested positive, you have to go into isolation". As far as I know, the thing in CS:GO is, that ropz got tested positive in Warsaw at the FaZe bootcamp, while boombl4 got testes positive while already being in Kattowice. Ropz obv. wasn't allowed to "switch hotels" for isolation, since ESL wants to have some safety meassures that people playing from the hotel are not cheating. I haven't read up on the rules for CS:GO, but as I see it, boombl4 will be able to play in person in playoffs after a seven-day isolation (and a negative test obviously). Buuut since the SC2 tournament only starts next week, someone getting tested positive there wouldn't be able to be cleared before playoffs, just through sheer time-constraints.
So in the end, ESL had to make a call. They went with "everyone needs to be on stage for fair conditions". And as long as they follow through with that, I think it is good. Yes, it would suck tremendously if someone misses the tournament because of that, really. But it wouldn't diminish the success of another player. Winning the tournament from a hotel while another guy had the struggle of playing on stage however...maybe you win the tournament with a brilliant foresight call...but was it really foresight or did you just streamsnipe? Who knows? It is just awkward to have one person on stage and one person in an hotel. And honestly, you have to see ESLs point of view: They are trying to sell hype, people pay good money to watch this from the venue and then a guy wins from his hotel and you have just the loser on stage? Awkward. And why the heck are you even in the venue then, could have just watched from home, too.
Last but not least: 1)I love that we atleast have one person here who immediately jumped to the conclusion that this is targeting koreans. Yes, finally, the great scheme of ESL comes to fruition! 2)It kinda bugs me how people were begging for and demanding offline tournaments again. Now they get them and they get salty that there are still safety regulations in play? Would you kindly make up your mind please?
The cheating issues you mentioned are far more of a potential problem at home and all events have been at home for the last 2 years so I'd hope they have some measures against them. Seems solvable with a camera to monitor the player and software that monitors what you currently have on your PC screen.
I don't agree that one person playing in front of a crowd is that big of a disadvantage. Both still have to deal with jetlag, the general stress of travel, and an unusual playing setup.
As for targeting Koreans I don't think this policy was designed specifically for them but there is no doubt that it is more likely to have an impact on them than others. I also have trouble believing one of the big 3 EU players will ever get DQ'D from this event.
Begging for offline is purely (at least for me) due to ping issues which have a far bigger effect on gameplay than any other factor. There would still be no ping with someone playing from the hotel.
"We need all players to adhere to the same circumstances there."
Keep in mind that the circumstance of them testing positive is entirely outside of their control and a risk that you yourselves have encouraged them to take. In this scenario they have no choice to "adhere" to anything, so your choice of words is rather strange indeed.
On February 19 2022 01:01 honorablemacroterran wrote: "We need all players to adhere to the same circumstances there."
Keep in mind that the circumstance of them testing positive is entirely outside of their control and a risk that you yourselves have encouraged them to take. In this scenario they have no choice to "adhere" to anything, so your choice of words is rather strange indeed.
I like how the esl person who responded in the thread didn't actually address this point. This to me is the biggest issue: imo esl is creating the harm (exposing players to covid due to traveling) and then creating a rule that has a reasonable probability of excluding the very same players they harmed
Assuming they don't backtrack (hopefully they do) is there anywhere that they clearly lays out what actually happens to the bracket if someone tests positive partway through. Like if someone in the ro8 tests positive how do they decide who takes their place? If the DQs are really going to happen every scenario needs to be clearly mapped out ahead of time.
On February 19 2022 01:01 honorablemacroterran wrote: "We need all players to adhere to the same circumstances there."
Keep in mind that the circumstance of them testing positive is entirely outside of their control and a risk that you yourselves have encouraged them to take. In this scenario they have no choice to "adhere" to anything, so your choice of words is rather strange indeed.
Testing positive is as outside of the players' control as getting any disease, getting hurt in an accident, getting traumatised by a scary event etc. It is just the most likely to be infected with covid right now. The pandemic is as real as 9/11. Airports are way more into security now compared to before 9/11, and testing positive is a big deal even if the symptoms for the individual might not be severe.
These isolations are the current normal. It is affecting IEM. ESL has made rules to both follow local regulations and to be fair for the players eligible to play. It could have been done in many different ways, each with downsides. This is what we have and it is too late to change without other, bigger, things changing first. This might be The Biggest Tournament of SC2, but it is just a sports event. The pandemic is bigger, Poland's politics is bigger.
ESL will have to learn from this. There will be more pandemics and, hopefully, professional SC2 will remain.
On February 18 2022 22:19 Balnazza wrote: Yes, it would suck tremendously if someone misses the tournament because of that, really. But it wouldn't diminish the success of another player.
It absolutely would diminish the winner's title if a top contender ends up getting DQ'd. The World Championship would be scuffed at least in the eyes of many. I think this is a feel-good statement that doesn't actually make any sense because there would be no championship if there were no opponents, and so you can see the legitimacy of the championship is derived by the strength of those who competed and didn't win.
On February 18 2022 22:19 Balnazza wrote: Yes, it would suck tremendously if someone misses the tournament because of that, really. But it wouldn't diminish the success of another player.
It absolutely would diminish the winner's title if a top contender ends up getting DQ'd. The World Championship would be scuffed at least in the eyes of many. I think this is a feel-good statement that doesn't actually make any sense because there would be no championship if there were no opponents, and so you can see the legitimacy of the championship is derived by the strength of those who competed and didn't win.
Okay so if one of the topdogs breaks his hand tomorrow, the winner of IEM will be not worthy and the title holds no value "in the eyes of many"? Good to know!
1. Is it possible to have an isolated room for a non-sick competitor? This way, if a competitor tests positive, then can we ask the negative competitor to compete in the isolated room so they do have a similar environment? There would probably only need to be 1 or 2 isolated rooms for non-sick competitors right? They can share, since they're not sick.
2. If #1 is possible, what can we as normies do to help make that happen?
3. If #1 is not possible, is there anything we can do to make it possible for sick competitors to compete no matter what? CS:GO is different since it's team based, but SC is solo so there is flexibility there.
Logistics:
1. Negative isolated room is ideally somewhere in the venue
2a. Positive isolated room = the person's hotel room...so there would need to be some kind of prepackaged computer system and a delivery person which would happen on the first day of arrival after they test. Drop off would be like dropping off food...have someone bring up the equipment, knock door, then immediately leave.
Have player setup internet, tweak settings, etc. before tournaments start
2b. For pick up, leave the computer in the room for a whole day (or more) for the virus to settle onto surfaces then have someone well protected disinfect the room and equipment with alcohol spray (at least 40%), disinfect the computer, bag it up, and bring it back in an isolated area for a few more days after use.
Omicron can be disinfected within 15 seconds if you use an alcohol spray with 40% or more (https://www.newsweek.com/how-long-does-omicron-last-surfaces-does-disinfectant-kill-covid-variant-1677158)
2c. Create checklist to deal with potential technical problems and hope for the best at this point. If technical issues persist, then competitor is DQ'd, but at least we tried.
Cost: TBD but it sounds potentially very expensive...but IMO worthwhile for a better experience. Could be room to offset costs with sponsorships. For example, perhaps a disinfectant company gets to put up banners locally for a discount, or gets an introduction to the venue's management.
Legalities: TBD but this may violate some Polish law. Outsourcing disinfectant service to a professional company removes liabilities on ESL employees.
Reputational Risks: If a player decides to cheat somehow, the fallout will not be on ESL, but the player themself. ESL tried to accommodate in this scenario to please the players and fans by allowing all players to participate no matter what.
EDIT: my **GUESS** is that non-sick competitors wouldn't mind doing #1 as long as it's not disruptive and they're informed ahead of time? The players and community seem to be generally fair and open minded and there seems to be enough trust and respect for one another.
EDIT #2: added suggestions on logistics, costs, and legalities
On February 19 2022 00:31 Heyoka wrote: Hey everyone, apologies for not jumping in here sooner but I'm responsible for the SC2 competition at IEM Katowice and can speak to some of the questions. As it mentions most players need to take a test to travel, and once in Poland to get into the player/production/etc areas we need everyone to show proof of a recent negative test.
If anyone does test positive once in Poland, either at the start or mid-way through the event we will require them to stay in isolation in the hotel which is in accordance with local regulations. We looked at how we want to handle this scenario and decided ultimately playing on stage has different playing conditions than alone at home or in a hotel, and for fairness in the competition we need to require all competitors to adhere to the same circumstances there.
For reference in CSGO, we have the same ruling but will allow people to compete from the hotel in the earlier group stage which happens mostly in a studio-type environment. The difference there is a week in between playing in groups and on stage in Spodek, so it's actually possible to recover in time to join us in the arena. For SC2 the event is only 5 days in total, so if you get test positive partway through you won't have time to recover before you need to participate on stage.
On February 18 2022 02:20 honorablemacroterran wrote:
On February 18 2022 02:18 Legan wrote: Of course it would be better to allow the isolated players to continue playing, but it could lead to very funny situations. The funniest thing to happen would be having the isolated player win important match or even the whole tournament, while only the defeated player is on the stage with crowd cheering the isolated player, that can't participate in ceremonies etc. at all.
Imagine thinking this is most important and not the legitimacy of the world championship title.
It is not about what is important for competition. If they, and viewers, really cared only about the competition and fairness, then there would not be an offline event at all really. Instead everyone would just be just flown in to minimize ping. No need to have big event venue for casters, staff, and crowd. Just have everyone be isolated in bunch of hotels for a whole event. However that would make very weird event.
Every event we've done in the past 2 years we have evaluated if this is a possibility. We have been ready to fly everyone to a single hotel for purposes of ping and then otherwise produce from a studio as we have otherwise done, it hasn't been possible until now because each time there is a significant portion of the competition who still would have been unable to attend (for example, all players from Korea).
On February 19 2022 07:22 honorablemacroterran wrote:
On February 18 2022 22:19 Balnazza wrote: Yes, it would suck tremendously if someone misses the tournament because of that, really. But it wouldn't diminish the success of another player.
It absolutely would diminish the winner's title if a top contender ends up getting DQ'd. The World Championship would be scuffed at least in the eyes of many. I think this is a feel-good statement that doesn't actually make any sense because there would be no championship if there were no opponents, and so you can see the legitimacy of the championship is derived by the strength of those who competed and didn't win.
Okay so if one of the topdogs breaks his hand tomorrow, the winner of IEM will be not worthy and the title holds no value "in the eyes of many"? Good to know!
That is a strawman of what I said. I said it would be diminished, not have no value. And yes, if Serral randomly broke his hand before IEM I am sure that a lot of people would remember it differently than if he got eliminated by the video game.
I don't really see what everyone's freaking out over. It's an in-person event and due to (perfectly reasonable) local laws, people who are infected can't participate in-person. That's that.
I mean, if anyone does get sick, that really sucks. But randomly switching online or breaking Polish law don't seem like especially useful ways of dealing with that (at this point purely hypothetical) situation.
On February 19 2022 10:29 QOGQOG wrote: I don't really see what everyone's freaking out over. It's an in-person event and due to (perfectly reasonable) local laws, people who are infected can't participate in-person. That's that.
I mean, if anyone does get sick, that really sucks. But randomly switching online or breaking Polish law don't seem like especially useful ways of dealing with that (at this point purely hypothetical) situation.
I agree and overall I'm just happy the event is happening. However, it'd be amazing if all players end up playing and if there are ways to make that more likely then let's try to make it happen. I do grow tired of all the useless debating and theorycrafting though.
I put together some thoughts a few comments above on some potential steps ESL could take.
On February 19 2022 10:29 QOGQOG wrote: I don't really see what everyone's freaking out over. It's an in-person event and due to (perfectly reasonable) local laws, people who are infected can't participate in-person. That's that.
I mean, if anyone does get sick, that really sucks. But randomly switching online or breaking Polish law don't seem like especially useful ways of dealing with that (at this point purely hypothetical) situation.
You ignored the 3rd option where there are no laws being broken and it's not switched to online. Anyone that makes it to Poland can play from their hotel room. Unless you are counting that as online but by that logic all SC2 tournaments are online because there is no LAN.
On February 19 2022 10:29 QOGQOG wrote: I don't really see what everyone's freaking out over. It's an in-person event and due to (perfectly reasonable) local laws, people who are infected can't participate in-person. That's that.
I mean, if anyone does get sick, that really sucks. But randomly switching online or breaking Polish law don't seem like especially useful ways of dealing with that (at this point purely hypothetical) situation.
You ignored the 3rd option where there are no laws being broken and it's not switched to online. Anyone that makes it to Poland can play from their hotel room. Unless you are counting that as online but by that logic all SC2 tournaments are online because there is no LAN.
LAN tournaments are played in a LAN environment. I think Wax or another TL staff confirmed it last time I asked. Only tournament organizers get access to the LAN set up of SC2.
ESL's argument is that if someone plays in a hotel room, the pressure, audience, and stress factor of playing on stage is not there, thus possibly giving them a competitive advantage. I can understand where they're coming from but I think having that sort of criticism and asterisk if the COVID player wins is better than having the COVID player being disqualified. The ping from a hotel to the arena within the same city is probably 10ms or less. To straight up DQ someone just doesn't make sense to me. What's the point of grinding for a year if I get DQed like that?
If a player chooses not to attend, like Armani for example, that's a different story.
On February 19 2022 10:29 QOGQOG wrote: I don't really see what everyone's freaking out over. It's an in-person event and due to (perfectly reasonable) local laws, people who are infected can't participate in-person. That's that.
I mean, if anyone does get sick, that really sucks. But randomly switching online or breaking Polish law don't seem like especially useful ways of dealing with that (at this point purely hypothetical) situation.
You ignored the 3rd option where there are no laws being broken and it's not switched to online. Anyone that makes it to Poland can play from their hotel room. Unless you are counting that as online but by that logic all SC2 tournaments are online because there is no LAN.
LAN tournaments are played in a LAN environment. I think Wax or another TL staff confirmed it last time I asked. Only tournament organizers get access to the LAN set up of SC2.
ESL's argument is that if someone plays in a hotel room, the pressure, audience, and stress factor of playing on stage is not there, thus possibly giving them a competitive advantage. I can understand where they're coming from but I think having that sort of criticism and asterisk if the COVID player wins is better than having the COVID player being disqualified. The ping from a hotel to the arena within the same city is probably 10ms or less. To straight up DQ someone just doesn't make sense to me. What's the point of grinding for a year if I get DQed like that?
If a player chooses not to attend, like Armani for example, that's a different story.
Oh really? That's news to me. Its been so long since the last in person event that I might be misremembering but I could still swear that even from 2017-2019 lag issues were still fairly common in big events. Unless I'm just completely misremembering about lag at offline events how's that possible on LAN? Obviously the stream can always have issues regardless of LAN or not but the games themselves should be flawless on LAN besides hardware problems.
Still not worth it to DQ them over it like you're saying. That hurts competitive integrity way more than any stage nerves advantage.
On February 19 2022 10:29 QOGQOG wrote: I don't really see what everyone's freaking out over. It's an in-person event and due to (perfectly reasonable) local laws, people who are infected can't participate in-person. That's that.
I mean, if anyone does get sick, that really sucks. But randomly switching online or breaking Polish law don't seem like especially useful ways of dealing with that (at this point purely hypothetical) situation.
You missing the boat here, it wasnt about players who get sick BEFORE the traveling and gotta stay home, its about players who travel thousand of km, and then found positive upon arrival or during the stay in the country. It is hypothetical but the probability of it is still within the realm of real possibility, more so than Serral or some player breaking their hand and cant play. My whole issue with ESL on this, is that, they know the kind of risk players would have been exposed to during the traveling and the stay, and the severe consequence of that, but has showed no plan to reduce that risk whatsoever. Somebody already post a couple of solution for that, and you telling me ESL hosting a multi-million dollar events (prize pool + organization cost + production cost) cant even do any of that? The goal of having an offline Global Final is that viewer (at the stage and online) can see the highest level of SC2 competition, and all the resource should be focused to make that happen. ESL as organizer should make that their first priority, its not about rulebook, or LAN set-up, or fan accessibility inside the facility, its player AVAILABILITY first.
On February 19 2022 10:29 QOGQOG wrote: I don't really see what everyone's freaking out over. It's an in-person event and due to (perfectly reasonable) local laws, people who are infected can't participate in-person. That's that.
I mean, if anyone does get sick, that really sucks. But randomly switching online or breaking Polish law don't seem like especially useful ways of dealing with that (at this point purely hypothetical) situation.
You missing the boat here, it wasnt about players who get sick BEFORE the traveling and gotta stay home, its about players who travel thousand of km, and then found positive upon arrival or during the stay in the country. It is hypothetical but the probability of it is still within the realm of real possibility, more so than Serral or some player breaking their hand and cant play. My whole issue with ESL on this, is that, they know the kind of risk players would have been exposed to during the traveling and the stay, and the severe consequence of that, but has showed no plan to reduce that risk whatsoever. Somebody already post a couple of solution for that, and you telling me ESL hosting a multi-million dollar events (prize pool + organization cost + production cost) cant even do any of that? The goal of having an offline Global Final is that viewer (at the stage and online) can see the highest level of SC2 competition, and all the resource should be focused to make that happen. ESL as organizer should make that their first priority, its not about rulebook, or LAN set-up, or fan accessibility inside the facility, its player AVAILABILITY first.
I know that's what it's about. Where was I talking about pre-trip infection?
If you have specific ideas about reducing the risk of players being exposed during travel feel free to share. I haven't seen any of these solutions you're talking about. I'm not sure what ESL could do to reduce risk short of chartering private planes. And I'm pretty sure that would indeed be out of their budget.
While player AVAILABILITY certainly determines whether or not an offline event is possible, at a certain point, you just have to decide what sort of event you're doing. The highest level of SC2 competition is offline, and that's what ESL wants. Having some players off-site would compromise that. So I continue to just not really understand what people are complaining about, I guess.
Dubov tested positive and was DQ-ed halfway during the last Tata Steel (a high-roller prestigious annual chess tournament with only 14 players)* despite being vaxxed and tight restrictions in place (Netherlands). So it's not speculative and alarmist to foresee a potential positive test fiasco happening.
* The only key difference is that Tata Steel went on longer for half a month (and if you want to count the junior section running concurrently, a total of 28 players)
On February 19 2022 20:34 RKC wrote: Dubov tested positive and was DQ-ed halfway during the last Tata Steel (a high-roller prestigious annual chess tournament with only 14 players)* despite being vaxxed and tight restrictions in place (Netherlands). So it's not speculative and alarmist to foresee a potential positive test fiasco happening.
* The only key difference is that Tata Steel went on longer for half a month (and if you want to count the junior section running concurrently, a total of 28 players)
And then he did another test that showed he wasn't positive at all.. afaik. So basically he could have easily finished the tournament and all this neurotic testing is a farce, at least in my book..
hopefully this IEM will somehow be able to dodge all the controversies with DQs and all that unwanted stuff..
On February 19 2022 10:29 QOGQOG wrote: I don't really see what everyone's freaking out over. It's an in-person event and due to (perfectly reasonable) local laws, people who are infected can't participate in-person. That's that.
I mean, if anyone does get sick, that really sucks. But randomly switching online or breaking Polish law don't seem like especially useful ways of dealing with that (at this point purely hypothetical) situation.
You missing the boat here, it wasnt about players who get sick BEFORE the traveling and gotta stay home, its about players who travel thousand of km, and then found positive upon arrival or during the stay in the country. It is hypothetical but the probability of it is still within the realm of real possibility, more so than Serral or some player breaking their hand and cant play. My whole issue with ESL on this, is that, they know the kind of risk players would have been exposed to during the traveling and the stay, and the severe consequence of that, but has showed no plan to reduce that risk whatsoever. Somebody already post a couple of solution for that, and you telling me ESL hosting a multi-million dollar events (prize pool + organization cost + production cost) cant even do any of that? The goal of having an offline Global Final is that viewer (at the stage and online) can see the highest level of SC2 competition, and all the resource should be focused to make that happen. ESL as organizer should make that their first priority, its not about rulebook, or LAN set-up, or fan accessibility inside the facility, its player AVAILABILITY first.
I know that's what it's about. Where was I talking about pre-trip infection?
If you have specific ideas about reducing the risk of players being exposed during travel feel free to share. I haven't seen any of these solutions you're talking about. I'm not sure what ESL could do to reduce risk short of chartering private planes. And I'm pretty sure that would indeed be out of their budget.
While player AVAILABILITY certainly determines whether or not an offline event is possible, at a certain point, you just have to decide what sort of event you're doing. The highest level of SC2 competition is offline, and that's what ESL wants. Having some players off-site would compromise that. So I continue to just not really understand what people are complaining about, I guess.
I already mentioned in my previous post about how players should be asked to travel 1 week in advance so that they can still play even if they test positive upon arrival. Private plane is also a good idea, and I have no idea how much that would cost in relative to the total cost of the event, which is in the range of millions of dollars. Those are clearly viable solution, and ESL should have addressed them before deciding if the cost was worth it. The highest level of SC2 competition is offline WITH all the top players available. There was no rush for having an offline tournament for this IEM, not from me at least, so I rather them putting together a better plan than just plunging toward it without considering all the issues. I am not sure what "certain point" you are talking about, why should ESL choose IEM to be offline if they know in advance that the local regulation might screw up the whole thing?
On February 19 2022 10:29 QOGQOG wrote: I don't really see what everyone's freaking out over. It's an in-person event and due to (perfectly reasonable) local laws, people who are infected can't participate in-person. That's that.
I mean, if anyone does get sick, that really sucks. But randomly switching online or breaking Polish law don't seem like especially useful ways of dealing with that (at this point purely hypothetical) situation.
You missing the boat here, it wasnt about players who get sick BEFORE the traveling and gotta stay home, its about players who travel thousand of km, and then found positive upon arrival or during the stay in the country. It is hypothetical but the probability of it is still within the realm of real possibility, more so than Serral or some player breaking their hand and cant play. My whole issue with ESL on this, is that, they know the kind of risk players would have been exposed to during the traveling and the stay, and the severe consequence of that, but has showed no plan to reduce that risk whatsoever. Somebody already post a couple of solution for that, and you telling me ESL hosting a multi-million dollar events (prize pool + organization cost + production cost) cant even do any of that? The goal of having an offline Global Final is that viewer (at the stage and online) can see the highest level of SC2 competition, and all the resource should be focused to make that happen. ESL as organizer should make that their first priority, its not about rulebook, or LAN set-up, or fan accessibility inside the facility, its player AVAILABILITY first.
I know that's what it's about. Where was I talking about pre-trip infection?
If you have specific ideas about reducing the risk of players being exposed during travel feel free to share. I haven't seen any of these solutions you're talking about. I'm not sure what ESL could do to reduce risk short of chartering private planes. And I'm pretty sure that would indeed be out of their budget.
While player AVAILABILITY certainly determines whether or not an offline event is possible, at a certain point, you just have to decide what sort of event you're doing. The highest level of SC2 competition is offline, and that's what ESL wants. Having some players off-site would compromise that. So I continue to just not really understand what people are complaining about, I guess.
I already mentioned in my previous post about how players should be asked to travel 1 week in advance so that they can still play even if they test positive upon arrival. Private plane is also a good idea, and I have no idea how much that would cost in relative to the total cost of the event, which is in the range of millions of dollars. Those are clearly viable solution, and ESL should have addressed them before deciding if the cost was worth it. The highest level of SC2 competition is offline WITH all the top players available. There was no rush for having an offline tournament for this IEM, not from me at least, so I rather them putting together a better plan than just plunging toward it without considering all the issues. I am not sure what "certain point" you are talking about, why should ESL choose IEM to be offline if they know in advance that the local regulation might screw up the whole thing?
I bolded a part that I want to adress. I agree with your sentiment, but I have the impression that a vast majority of vocal viewers have been pressing ESL to make IEM Katowice offline. You and I are in the minority when we don't want ESL to rush out an offline event. It is mostly here on TL.net that we are more common. Other sites and forums have way more pro offline people (unless I've found some kind big, isolated bubble were I am opposing the majority).
On February 19 2022 10:29 QOGQOG wrote: I don't really see what everyone's freaking out over. It's an in-person event and due to (perfectly reasonable) local laws, people who are infected can't participate in-person. That's that.
I mean, if anyone does get sick, that really sucks. But randomly switching online or breaking Polish law don't seem like especially useful ways of dealing with that (at this point purely hypothetical) situation.
You missing the boat here, it wasnt about players who get sick BEFORE the traveling and gotta stay home, its about players who travel thousand of km, and then found positive upon arrival or during the stay in the country. It is hypothetical but the probability of it is still within the realm of real possibility, more so than Serral or some player breaking their hand and cant play. My whole issue with ESL on this, is that, they know the kind of risk players would have been exposed to during the traveling and the stay, and the severe consequence of that, but has showed no plan to reduce that risk whatsoever. Somebody already post a couple of solution for that, and you telling me ESL hosting a multi-million dollar events (prize pool + organization cost + production cost) cant even do any of that? The goal of having an offline Global Final is that viewer (at the stage and online) can see the highest level of SC2 competition, and all the resource should be focused to make that happen. ESL as organizer should make that their first priority, its not about rulebook, or LAN set-up, or fan accessibility inside the facility, its player AVAILABILITY first.
I know that's what it's about. Where was I talking about pre-trip infection?
If you have specific ideas about reducing the risk of players being exposed during travel feel free to share. I haven't seen any of these solutions you're talking about. I'm not sure what ESL could do to reduce risk short of chartering private planes. And I'm pretty sure that would indeed be out of their budget.
While player AVAILABILITY certainly determines whether or not an offline event is possible, at a certain point, you just have to decide what sort of event you're doing. The highest level of SC2 competition is offline, and that's what ESL wants. Having some players off-site would compromise that. So I continue to just not really understand what people are complaining about, I guess.
I already mentioned in my previous post about how players should be asked to travel 1 week in advance so that they can still play even if they test positive upon arrival. Private plane is also a good idea, and I have no idea how much that would cost in relative to the total cost of the event, which is in the range of millions of dollars. Those are clearly viable solution, and ESL should have addressed them before deciding if the cost was worth it. The highest level of SC2 competition is offline WITH all the top players available. There was no rush for having an offline tournament for this IEM, not from me at least, so I rather them putting together a better plan than just plunging toward it without considering all the issues. I am not sure what "certain point" you are talking about, why should ESL choose IEM to be offline if they know in advance that the local regulation might screw up the whole thing?
I don’t know if asking all players to travel 1 week in advance is a good solution. even if it wasn’t too late at this point…That’s 36 players at an extra week of hotel costs (if you assume $50 USD per night then that’s $12.6k), plus how are they going to practice? I think the week leading up to the event is probably full of mental and physical preparation. Also schedules for their daily life can interfere. Not sure if players should want this but maybe I’m wrong
IEM budget may not be as high as it looks from the outside, esp if you consider that blizz is sponsoring so much of it for StarCraft. I’d guess private planes are totally out of the question cost wise.
I like the effort though, more ideas less whining!
Hm, this whole discussion reminds me in some very funny way of the typical discussion with my kids:
Kids - "We want ice cream, we want ice cream!" Me - "Ok, finally you'll get your damn ice cream! Let's see, there is some chocolate ice cream we have in the fridge. You're happy now?" Kids - "Bah, chocolate ice cream is disgusting, we want vanilla!" Me - "But vanilla ice cream is out of store right now..." Kids (raging) - "Doesn't matter! We want vanilla ice! We want vanilla ice!" Me - "..."
On February 20 2022 04:13 Tommy131313 wrote: Hm, this whole discussion reminds me in some very funny way of the typical discussion with my kids:
Kids - "We want ice cream, we want ice cream!" Me - "Ok, finally you'll get your damn ice cream! Let's see, there is some chocolate ice cream we have in the fridge. You're happy now?" Kids - "Bah, chocolate ice cream is disgusting, we want vanilla!" Me - "But vanilla ice cream is out of store right now..." Kids (raging) - "Doesn't matter! We want vanilla ice! We want vanilla ice!" Me - "..."
Yeah because not wanting players who rely on this game for their livelihood to be DQ'D from an event that pays $500k over something outside of their control is the equivalent to throwing a fit over ice cream. This is their livelihood and it's supposed to be a professional competition.
I reread the protocols page and the fact that they have no plan for someone testing positive after the groups are played out should be concerning to everyone regardless of if you support the DQ decision. They are either going to allow advancement through the bracket without actually playing (can you imagine on the final day someone tests positive for COVID and one player suddenly only has to win a single bo7 to win IEM?) Or they will make up some BS on the spot and choose someone to fill the slot without predefined rules.
People supporting the above over the super simple solution of players playing from their room is mind blowing to me.
On February 20 2022 04:13 Tommy131313 wrote: Hm, this whole discussion reminds me in some very funny way of the typical discussion with my kids:
Kids - "We want ice cream, we want ice cream!" Me - "Ok, finally you'll get your damn ice cream! Let's see, there is some chocolate ice cream we have in the fridge. You're happy now?" Kids - "Bah, chocolate ice cream is disgusting, we want vanilla!" Me - "But vanilla ice cream is out of store right now..." Kids (raging) - "Doesn't matter! We want vanilla ice! We want vanilla ice!" Me - "..."
why are these shitty comparisons so popular these days..?
On February 19 2022 10:29 QOGQOG wrote: I don't really see what everyone's freaking out over. It's an in-person event and due to (perfectly reasonable) local laws, people who are infected can't participate in-person. That's that.
I mean, if anyone does get sick, that really sucks. But randomly switching online or breaking Polish law don't seem like especially useful ways of dealing with that (at this point purely hypothetical) situation.
You missing the boat here, it wasnt about players who get sick BEFORE the traveling and gotta stay home, its about players who travel thousand of km, and then found positive upon arrival or during the stay in the country. It is hypothetical but the probability of it is still within the realm of real possibility, more so than Serral or some player breaking their hand and cant play. My whole issue with ESL on this, is that, they know the kind of risk players would have been exposed to during the traveling and the stay, and the severe consequence of that, but has showed no plan to reduce that risk whatsoever. Somebody already post a couple of solution for that, and you telling me ESL hosting a multi-million dollar events (prize pool + organization cost + production cost) cant even do any of that? The goal of having an offline Global Final is that viewer (at the stage and online) can see the highest level of SC2 competition, and all the resource should be focused to make that happen. ESL as organizer should make that their first priority, its not about rulebook, or LAN set-up, or fan accessibility inside the facility, its player AVAILABILITY first.
I know that's what it's about. Where was I talking about pre-trip infection?
If you have specific ideas about reducing the risk of players being exposed during travel feel free to share. I haven't seen any of these solutions you're talking about. I'm not sure what ESL could do to reduce risk short of chartering private planes. And I'm pretty sure that would indeed be out of their budget.
While player AVAILABILITY certainly determines whether or not an offline event is possible, at a certain point, you just have to decide what sort of event you're doing. The highest level of SC2 competition is offline, and that's what ESL wants. Having some players off-site would compromise that. So I continue to just not really understand what people are complaining about, I guess.
I already mentioned in my previous post about how players should be asked to travel 1 week in advance so that they can still play even if they test positive upon arrival. Private plane is also a good idea, and I have no idea how much that would cost in relative to the total cost of the event, which is in the range of millions of dollars. Those are clearly viable solution, and ESL should have addressed them before deciding if the cost was worth it. The highest level of SC2 competition is offline WITH all the top players available. There was no rush for having an offline tournament for this IEM, not from me at least, so I rather them putting together a better plan than just plunging toward it without considering all the issues. I am not sure what "certain point" you are talking about, why should ESL choose IEM to be offline if they know in advance that the local regulation might screw up the whole thing?
I don’t know if asking all players to travel 1 week in advance is a good solution. even if it wasn’t too late at this point…That’s 36 players at an extra week of hotel costs (if you assume $50 USD per night then that’s $12.6k), plus how are they going to practice? I think the week leading up to the event is probably full of mental and physical preparation. Also schedules for their daily life can interfere. Not sure if players should want this but maybe I’m wrong
IEM budget may not be as high as it looks from the outside, esp if you consider that blizz is sponsoring so much of it for StarCraft. I’d guess private planes are totally out of the question cost wise.
I like the effort though, more ideas less whining!
Maybe making it as an option for players to choose whether they want to arrive early or not. At least they have a choice if playesr want to play it safe, now there is no choice and we all have to cross our finger for the entire next week. Anyway, I do realize all the these are just "food for thought" at the moment, nothing else can be done and not gonna change what going to happen. So do we know when is the first group of players arriving? Would be cool for ESL to post on their twitter when the players have arrived and passed the Covid test at the airport.
Imagine a player gets DQed because playing from a hotel room might give them an advantage.. But what about the advantage his opponent gets by getting a freewin for something outside of the other players control?? isn't that a FAR bigger advantage? I get that it's not good for the atmosphere to have players play from the hotel room, but isn't that by far the lesser evil compared to just DQing players for something outside of their control?
Well I guess we just have to hope Serral will be the first one affected by this, so they will be forced to bend the rules.
Even here: Everybody is only talking about Covid. Imo it is good that they have written down the rules. We have to live with that, story ends. I'm so bored of constantly talking about exactly the same thing now for over 2 years.
More interested in the performance of the players: If you take a look at the whole year and how the players have placed i'm so unsure who will take it. As a Reynor Fan since his first days in the WCL i really hope for him but frankly if you take a look at his recent results, since he has won the last major, i'm a little bit fearful for him (and me ^^).
Zest has played so good, special his performance in the Super Tournament vs. Maru and Dark and he has peaked at IEM several times in the past.
Rouges performance is more then ever an up and down in case of results since IEM 2021. But if he will have a good week he is one of the favorites (as always).
Dark has shown a lot of mediocore results, beside his GSL win in 2021. I wonder, if he will be the first player to take the Title as a Worldmaster a second time, beside SOS.
Serral is hungry and impressed me the last couple of Majors (nearly) the most. Atm i would say his chances are even higher then Reynors (and that from a Fan like myself ^^).
Maru is like Serral improving the last couple of month, beside his recent loss vs. Zest in the Super Tournament.
Most weak one for me, because of results and overall behaviour is Trap but frankly this is maybe better then his position as a favorite at the last IEM. Imo it was to much pressure for him.
The dark horse (for me) is Hero. I'm so hyped of his play, since he has returned. Afterthe last Super Tournament i got the feeling that he will make the life of Trap in the Korean scene much harder. There is something about his playstyle, which is directly Antitrap
Thankfully i am able to take the days off and are able to see everything life. I'm watching Starcraft Esports now for maybe 10 - 15 years (not really sure about that, start watching GSL after the peak of Nestae and before that, one or two years the Brood War foreigner scene; Mondragon winning a TSL is one of my oldest memories)
Wish everyone else a lot of fun with the IEM, too.
On February 20 2022 04:13 Tommy131313 wrote: Hm, this whole discussion reminds me in some very funny way of the typical discussion with my kids:
Kids - "We want ice cream, we want ice cream!" Me - "Ok, finally you'll get your damn ice cream! Let's see, there is some chocolate ice cream we have in the fridge. You're happy now?" Kids - "Bah, chocolate ice cream is disgusting, we want vanilla!" Me - "But vanilla ice cream is out of store right now..." Kids (raging) - "Doesn't matter! We want vanilla ice! We want vanilla ice!" Me - "..."
why are these shitty comparisons so popular these days..?
They are potemkin arguments for mediocre people. I find that comparing people to one's children is a favorite rhetorical tactic of people who are otherwise completely unequipped to make an argument in defense of something that makes no sense, but that they want to defend anyway.
Made a post on reddit about this and Apollo made a response:
Heyhey,
Throwing some insight behind the decision.
Over the last 2 years we've ran online competitions, we are now finally in a position to get back to LIVE events. We all want this, we miss this, which I believe we all can agree on. We do not want to be crowning another online champion.
To expand on this, we think it's important to understand how we define an IEM Champion. We not only value the raw skill of a player but equally the ability to manage the pressure and all other elements that come with an in-person, on-stage performance. This is as a key trait that defines a Champion.
With the decision to take the event in-person and not online, this was the decision point to not allow players to compete from within their hotel rooms, otherwise we would have simply ran an online competition.
We 100% respect your opinion on the matter and it's incredibly important to us that you provide it. As you can likely imagine, it's almost impossible to have the perfect environment in order to have a perfect tournament.
The biggest moments in SC2 have always been in person moments.
Well yes they make money from selling tickets, so there's nothing else he could say. But if someone is able and willing to play but blocked from doing so because it would make the production value worse, it takes the event a step away from an actual sport, a pursuit of excellence, and a step closer to professional wrestling.
Another interesting comment from that Reddit thread was from Heyoka confirming that if someone tests positive in the bracket the loser of the prior round will take their place. So there is a very real (admittedly low but not as low as it should be) possibility we have a scenario of someone losing in the ro8 and then getting a second chance on the final day and winning the event.
Maybe making it as an option for players to choose whether they want to arrive early or not. At least they have a choice if playesr want to play it safe, now there is no choice and we all have to cross our finger for the entire next week. Anyway, I do realize all the these are just "food for thought" at the moment, nothing else can be done and not gonna change what going to happen. So do we know when is the first group of players arriving? Would be cool for ESL to post on their twitter when the players have arrived and passed the Covid test at the airport.[/QUOTE][/quote]
Ah, option would've been a cool idea.
On February 21 2022 07:33 Pandain wrote: Made a post on reddit about this and Apollo made a response:
Over the last 2 years we've ran online competitions, we are now finally in a position to get back to LIVE events. We all want this, we miss this, which I believe we all can agree on. We do not want to be crowning another online champion.
To expand on this, we think it's important to understand how we define an IEM Champion. We not only value the raw skill of a player but equally the ability to manage the pressure and all other elements that come with an in-person, on-stage performance. This is as a key trait that defines a Champion.
With the decision to take the event in-person and not online, this was the decision point to not allow players to compete from within their hotel rooms, otherwise we would have simply ran an online competition.
We 100% respect your opinion on the matter and it's incredibly important to us that you provide it. As you can likely imagine, it's almost impossible to have the perfect environment in order to have a perfect tournament.
The biggest moments in SC2 have always been in person moments.
It's a good response during an unprecedented time...although I think online, minimal ping between international players is a huge step beyond cross server ping. More importantly, I still think that most of us would rather see someone play from hotel room than not play at all.
Regardless, sounds like decisions have been made and it is VERY last minute to make changes in the live events world. I'm still grateful no matter what happens.
Being optimistic, I'm sure all the players and their teams have and will do everything they humanly can to prevent someone from catching covid
Just coming here to post Shaun's reply, thanks! I can speak a little more to specifics:
As JJH mentioned, the general plan outlined for results is that if a player tests positive during groups (or even after if its before we start the bracket) mans we will calculate those results as if they haven't played at all, and if someone is unable to continue in the bracket their place is filled from the previous loser. There was some speculation in here we would advance without a match being played which isn't quite how it's handled.
We also have a number of event protocols to keep the players safe while here. They have private spaces for all activities, all ESL staff are vaccinated + have negative PCR tests + will be wearing masks, and we've eliminated activities that would otherwise have them interacting with the community (like signings).
To speak on the optional early arrival, this is generally already an option for any player though isn't something we push on our end. In this specific instance players are already making a big sacrifice going home, many of them have to quarantine for a week or more on return and so increasing that on the arrival end is not the most attractive for them (and isn't something we felt we could require).
On February 19 2022 10:29 QOGQOG wrote: I don't really see what everyone's freaking out over. It's an in-person event and due to (perfectly reasonable) local laws, people who are infected can't participate in-person. That's that.
I mean, if anyone does get sick, that really sucks. But randomly switching online or breaking Polish law don't seem like especially useful ways of dealing with that (at this point purely hypothetical) situation.
You missing the boat here, it wasnt about players who get sick BEFORE the traveling and gotta stay home, its about players who travel thousand of km, and then found positive upon arrival or during the stay in the country. It is hypothetical but the probability of it is still within the realm of real possibility, more so than Serral or some player breaking their hand and cant play. My whole issue with ESL on this, is that, they know the kind of risk players would have been exposed to during the traveling and the stay, and the severe consequence of that, but has showed no plan to reduce that risk whatsoever. Somebody already post a couple of solution for that, and you telling me ESL hosting a multi-million dollar events (prize pool + organization cost + production cost) cant even do any of that? The goal of having an offline Global Final is that viewer (at the stage and online) can see the highest level of SC2 competition, and all the resource should be focused to make that happen. ESL as organizer should make that their first priority, its not about rulebook, or LAN set-up, or fan accessibility inside the facility, its player AVAILABILITY first.
I know that's what it's about. Where was I talking about pre-trip infection?
If you have specific ideas about reducing the risk of players being exposed during travel feel free to share. I haven't seen any of these solutions you're talking about. I'm not sure what ESL could do to reduce risk short of chartering private planes. And I'm pretty sure that would indeed be out of their budget.
While player AVAILABILITY certainly determines whether or not an offline event is possible, at a certain point, you just have to decide what sort of event you're doing. The highest level of SC2 competition is offline, and that's what ESL wants. Having some players off-site would compromise that. So I continue to just not really understand what people are complaining about, I guess.
I already mentioned in my previous post about how players should be asked to travel 1 week in advance so that they can still play even if they test positive upon arrival. Private plane is also a good idea, and I have no idea how much that would cost in relative to the total cost of the event, which is in the range of millions of dollars. Those are clearly viable solution, and ESL should have addressed them before deciding if the cost was worth it. The highest level of SC2 competition is offline WITH all the top players available. There was no rush for having an offline tournament for this IEM, not from me at least, so I rather them putting together a better plan than just plunging toward it without considering all the issues. I am not sure what "certain point" you are talking about, why should ESL choose IEM to be offline if they know in advance that the local regulation might screw up the whole thing?
I don’t know if asking all players to travel 1 week in advance is a good solution. even if it wasn’t too late at this point…That’s 36 players at an extra week of hotel costs (if you assume $50 USD per night then that’s $12.6k), plus how are they going to practice? I think the week leading up to the event is probably full of mental and physical preparation. Also schedules for their daily life can interfere. Not sure if players should want this but maybe I’m wrong
IEM budget may not be as high as it looks from the outside, esp if you consider that blizz is sponsoring so much of it for StarCraft. I’d guess private planes are totally out of the question cost wise.
I like the effort though, more ideas less whining!
Maybe making it as an option for players to choose whether they want to arrive early or not. At least they have a choice if playesr want to play it safe, now there is no choice and we all have to cross our finger for the entire next week. Anyway, I do realize all the these are just "food for thought" at the moment, nothing else can be done and not gonna change what going to happen. So do we know when is the first group of players arriving? Would be cool for ESL to post on their twitter when the players have arrived and passed the Covid test at the airport.
To understand our timelines here, players started traveling Sunday morning CET and will all be arriving throughout the 21st. We'll be sure to update once we have them all safely on site!
On February 21 2022 08:15 Heyoka wrote: Just coming here to post Shaun's reply, thanks! I can speak a little more to specifics:
As JJH mentioned, the general plan outlined for results is that if a player tests positive during groups (or even after if its before we start the bracket) mans we will calculate those results as if they haven't played at all, and if someone is unable to continue in the bracket their place is filled from the previous loser. There was some speculation in here we would advance without a match being played which isn't quite how it's handled.
We also have a number of event protocols to keep the players safe while here. They have private spaces for all activities, all ESL staff are vaccinated + have negative PCR tests + will be wearing masks, and we've eliminated activities that would otherwise have them interacting with the community (like signings).
To speak on the optional early arrival, this is generally already an option for any player though isn't something we push on our end. In this specific instance players are already making a big sacrifice going home, many of them have to quarantine for a week or more on return and so increasing that on the arrival end is not the most attractive for them (and isn't something we felt we could require).
On February 19 2022 10:29 QOGQOG wrote: I don't really see what everyone's freaking out over. It's an in-person event and due to (perfectly reasonable) local laws, people who are infected can't participate in-person. That's that.
I mean, if anyone does get sick, that really sucks. But randomly switching online or breaking Polish law don't seem like especially useful ways of dealing with that (at this point purely hypothetical) situation.
You missing the boat here, it wasnt about players who get sick BEFORE the traveling and gotta stay home, its about players who travel thousand of km, and then found positive upon arrival or during the stay in the country. It is hypothetical but the probability of it is still within the realm of real possibility, more so than Serral or some player breaking their hand and cant play. My whole issue with ESL on this, is that, they know the kind of risk players would have been exposed to during the traveling and the stay, and the severe consequence of that, but has showed no plan to reduce that risk whatsoever. Somebody already post a couple of solution for that, and you telling me ESL hosting a multi-million dollar events (prize pool + organization cost + production cost) cant even do any of that? The goal of having an offline Global Final is that viewer (at the stage and online) can see the highest level of SC2 competition, and all the resource should be focused to make that happen. ESL as organizer should make that their first priority, its not about rulebook, or LAN set-up, or fan accessibility inside the facility, its player AVAILABILITY first.
I know that's what it's about. Where was I talking about pre-trip infection?
If you have specific ideas about reducing the risk of players being exposed during travel feel free to share. I haven't seen any of these solutions you're talking about. I'm not sure what ESL could do to reduce risk short of chartering private planes. And I'm pretty sure that would indeed be out of their budget.
While player AVAILABILITY certainly determines whether or not an offline event is possible, at a certain point, you just have to decide what sort of event you're doing. The highest level of SC2 competition is offline, and that's what ESL wants. Having some players off-site would compromise that. So I continue to just not really understand what people are complaining about, I guess.
I already mentioned in my previous post about how players should be asked to travel 1 week in advance so that they can still play even if they test positive upon arrival. Private plane is also a good idea, and I have no idea how much that would cost in relative to the total cost of the event, which is in the range of millions of dollars. Those are clearly viable solution, and ESL should have addressed them before deciding if the cost was worth it. The highest level of SC2 competition is offline WITH all the top players available. There was no rush for having an offline tournament for this IEM, not from me at least, so I rather them putting together a better plan than just plunging toward it without considering all the issues. I am not sure what "certain point" you are talking about, why should ESL choose IEM to be offline if they know in advance that the local regulation might screw up the whole thing?
I don’t know if asking all players to travel 1 week in advance is a good solution. even if it wasn’t too late at this point…That’s 36 players at an extra week of hotel costs (if you assume $50 USD per night then that’s $12.6k), plus how are they going to practice? I think the week leading up to the event is probably full of mental and physical preparation. Also schedules for their daily life can interfere. Not sure if players should want this but maybe I’m wrong
IEM budget may not be as high as it looks from the outside, esp if you consider that blizz is sponsoring so much of it for StarCraft. I’d guess private planes are totally out of the question cost wise.
I like the effort though, more ideas less whining!
Maybe making it as an option for players to choose whether they want to arrive early or not. At least they have a choice if playesr want to play it safe, now there is no choice and we all have to cross our finger for the entire next week. Anyway, I do realize all the these are just "food for thought" at the moment, nothing else can be done and not gonna change what going to happen. So do we know when is the first group of players arriving? Would be cool for ESL to post on their twitter when the players have arrived and passed the Covid test at the airport.
To understand our timelines here, players started traveling Sunday morning CET and will all be arriving throughout the 21st. We'll be sure to update once we have them all safely on site!
Just so this thread isnt just filled with people disagreeing or saying that testing is "useless": I fully support ESLs decisions regarding this. Big surprise: if you want to make an offline event happen during a pandemic with players traveling from across the world there are gonna have to be compromises and difficult decisions! There was never not going to be a small asterisk on any LAN tournament in these circumstances for purists regardless. Not everyone is going to be satisfied but I am sure people at ESL have weighed all the options and chose the most reasonable . I hope everyone will enjoy the games and lets go Zest!!
In CSGO it was allowed for the IEM Play-Ins to play from the hotel room for single positive tested persons, but they don't want to continue this for the main event for the above reasons Apollo mentioned. ESL was very supportive and did a great job so far!
The players should form a union and refuse to play if this isn't changed. If they get 10+ on board there is no way they'd be able to just DQ them. This has a high chance of costing multiple players a lot of money.
On February 22 2022 03:06 JJH777 wrote: The players should form a union and refuse to play if this isn't changed. If they get 10+ on board there is no way they'd be able to just DQ them. This has a high chance of costing multiple players a lot of money.
If 10+ people get "on board", ESL just cancels the entire tournament and uses the prizepool to cover their loses. So much better for everyone indeed...
On February 22 2022 03:06 JJH777 wrote: The players should form a union and refuse to play if this isn't changed. If they get 10+ on board there is no way they'd be able to just DQ them. This has a high chance of costing multiple players a lot of money.
If 10+ people get "on board", ESL just cancels the entire tournament and uses the prizepool to cover their loses. So much better for everyone indeed...
There is no way they would rather cancel the event than let the few people who test positive play from a hotel room. They just need a little nudge. Just saying it's an option they should consider. I certainly would if I was a player as this is a very anti-player policy and the players are ultimately what drive viewership and fans. I guarantee they care far more about the possibility of being randomly DQ'd than about any advantage playing from a hotel does or doesn't provide.
It would be no different than the NBA player strike from a few years ago.
As far as I can see, none of the players protested. They probably even knew in advance, just in case. Makes you wonder why they don't protest, huh? Maybe, just maybe, because they also see that there is no real alternative? btw, in CS:GO, same rules apply for playoffs (every player that gets a positive test this week is out, so two positives in a team and they are out) and CS:GO HAS somewhat of a union, still they don't pressure this rule.
How are you on this crusade, when none of the people actually involved seem to care at all? just as a comparison: Most athletes in the Winter Olympics that just ended were extremly unhappy with the location (China). They also had some trouble with the Covid-regulations there. And still, basically no one dropped out. Why? Because for once, they need to play for the money, but maybe even more important they worked their asses off for four years to get to that tournament (and yes, some dreams just got crashed by Covid - shitty, but that happens sadly). SC2 players worked a whole year to get to this event. And while there is a "chance" that they drop out with a positive test, you want them to drop out for sure.
And just on the off-chance players would complain on short notice and ESL had to accomodate them, give everyone the finger that attends the event to watch an empty stage and somehow manage to actually create the space for the players to play from their hotel rooms (in isolation...have fun) - why would they even consider putting up with that in the future? Obviously I don't know the numbers, but I can't imagine ESL is making the big bucks out of SC2 compared to CS:GO or some other ventures they have. So maybe the next offline tourney they cancel paid travel - hey, if you want to go on a strike one day before the event starts, you can atleast pay for your own travels, right?
On February 22 2022 09:14 Balnazza wrote: As far as I can see, none of the players protested. They probably even knew in advance, just in case. Makes you wonder why they don't protest, huh? Maybe, just maybe, because they also see that there is no real alternative? btw, in CS:GO, same rules apply for playoffs (every player that gets a positive test this week is out, so two positives in a team and they are out) and CS:GO HAS somewhat of a union, still they don't pressure this rule.
How are you on this crusade, when none of the people actually involved seem to care at all? just as a comparison: Most athletes in the Winter Olympics that just ended were extremly unhappy with the location (China). They also had some trouble with the Covid-regulations there. And still, basically no one dropped out. Why? Because for once, they need to play for the money, but maybe even more important they worked their asses off for four years to get to that tournament (and yes, some dreams just got crashed by Covid - shitty, but that happens sadly). SC2 players worked a whole year to get to this event. And while there is a "chance" that they drop out with a positive test, you want them to drop out for sure.
And just on the off-chance players would complain on short notice and ESL had to accomodate them, give everyone the finger that attends the event to watch an empty stage and somehow manage to actually create the space for the players to play from their hotel rooms (in isolation...have fun) - why would they even consider putting up with that in the future? Obviously I don't know the numbers, but I can't imagine ESL is making the big bucks out of SC2 compared to CS:GO or some other ventures they have. So maybe the next offline tourney they cancel paid travel - hey, if you want to go on a strike one day before the event starts, you can atleast pay for your own travels, right?
On February 22 2022 09:14 Balnazza wrote: As far as I can see, none of the players protested. They probably even knew in advance, just in case. Makes you wonder why they don't protest, huh? Maybe, just maybe, because they also see that there is no real alternative? btw, in CS:GO, same rules apply for playoffs (every player that gets a positive test this week is out, so two positives in a team and they are out) and CS:GO HAS somewhat of a union, still they don't pressure this rule.
How are you on this crusade, when none of the people actually involved seem to care at all? just as a comparison: Most athletes in the Winter Olympics that just ended were extremly unhappy with the location (China). They also had some trouble with the Covid-regulations there. And still, basically no one dropped out. Why? Because for once, they need to play for the money, but maybe even more important they worked their asses off for four years to get to that tournament (and yes, some dreams just got crashed by Covid - shitty, but that happens sadly). SC2 players worked a whole year to get to this event. And while there is a "chance" that they drop out with a positive test, you want them to drop out for sure.
And just on the off-chance players would complain on short notice and ESL had to accomodate them, give everyone the finger that attends the event to watch an empty stage and somehow manage to actually create the space for the players to play from their hotel rooms (in isolation...have fun) - why would they even consider putting up with that in the future? Obviously I don't know the numbers, but I can't imagine ESL is making the big bucks out of SC2 compared to CS:GO or some other ventures they have. So maybe the next offline tourney they cancel paid travel - hey, if you want to go on a strike one day before the event starts, you can atleast pay for your own travels, right?
I'm certain the players care. Them not protesting probably comes down to a few factors: they only found out on the 9th so not a lot of time to understand the full implications of this rule and react, they don't feel they have any say in it, and they likely have a "it won't happen or at least not to me" mentality like most people do about things of this nature. Hell, that seems to be the mentality ESL took about the worse case scenario of a bracket stage DQ since the only place it's been explained how that will be handled is a Reddit post. And I hope that mentality is proven right and my complaints were for nothing. I doubt it though.
I don't really consider spending a few minutes a few times a day writing a post to be a crusade but the reason I care is because I don't think the worst case scenario is that unlikely and it would ruin the event. That being a player who has already lost getting a COVID DQ related revival and winning the event. I want everyone to know that is a realistic possibility and I hope people would agree that would ruin the competitive integrity of the tournament. Unfortunately it seems most people don't care as you are pointing out. I'm guessing that if it actually comes to pass and especially if it happens to a fan favorite people will care a lot more and in that case I doubt these rules survive to the next offline ESL event.
I'd hope ESL wouldn't be that petty about players standing up for themselves but who knows. Regardless I still think it would be in their best interest, especially the ones who are about to go to military. Can you imagine Zest losing his final chance to make significant money on SC2 due to something outside of his control? A bunch of the KR players are at an age where this might be their last IEM before service.
On February 22 2022 09:14 Balnazza wrote: As far as I can see, none of the players protested. They probably even knew in advance, just in case. Makes you wonder why they don't protest, huh? Maybe, just maybe, because they also see that there is no real alternative? btw, in CS:GO, same rules apply for playoffs (every player that gets a positive test this week is out, so two positives in a team and they are out) and CS:GO HAS somewhat of a union, still they don't pressure this rule.
How are you on this crusade, when none of the people actually involved seem to care at all? just as a comparison: Most athletes in the Winter Olympics that just ended were extremly unhappy with the location (China). They also had some trouble with the Covid-regulations there. And still, basically no one dropped out. Why? Because for once, they need to play for the money, but maybe even more important they worked their asses off for four years to get to that tournament (and yes, some dreams just got crashed by Covid - shitty, but that happens sadly). SC2 players worked a whole year to get to this event. And while there is a "chance" that they drop out with a positive test, you want them to drop out for sure.
And just on the off-chance players would complain on short notice and ESL had to accomodate them, give everyone the finger that attends the event to watch an empty stage and somehow manage to actually create the space for the players to play from their hotel rooms (in isolation...have fun) - why would they even consider putting up with that in the future? Obviously I don't know the numbers, but I can't imagine ESL is making the big bucks out of SC2 compared to CS:GO or some other ventures they have. So maybe the next offline tourney they cancel paid travel - hey, if you want to go on a strike one day before the event starts, you can atleast pay for your own travels, right?
How do you know?
Because I can see that none of them protested publicly, atleast not that I can find anything...
On February 22 2022 10:33 JJH777 wrote: I'm certain the players care. Them not protesting probably comes down to a few factors: they only found out on the 9th so not a lot of time to understand the full implications of this rule and react, they don't feel they have any say in it, and they likely have a "it won't happen or at least not to me" mentality like most people do about things of this nature. Hell, that seems to be the mentality ESL took about the worse case scenario of a bracket stage DQ since the only place it's been explained how that will be handled is a Reddit post. And I hope that mentality is proven right and my complaints were for nothing. I doubt it though.
I don't really consider spending a few minutes a few times a day writing a post to be a crusade but the reason I care is because I don't think the worst case scenario is that unlikely and it would ruin the event. That being a player who has already lost getting a COVID DQ related revival and winning the event. I want everyone to know that is a realistic possibility and I hope people would agree that would ruin the competitive integrity of the tournament. Unfortunately it seems most people don't care as you are pointing out. I'm guessing that if it actually comes to pass and especially if it happens to a fan favorite people will care a lot more and in that case I doubt these rules survive to the next offline ESL event.
I'd hope ESL wouldn't be that petty about players standing up for themselves but who knows. Regardless I still think it would be in their best interest, especially the ones who are about to go to military. Can you imagine Zest losing his final chance to make significant money on SC2 due to something outside of his control? A bunch of the KR players are at an age where this might be their last IEM before service.
Well, the alternative is what happens in Tennis: If you can't attend your match, it is a defwin for your opponent, so the one you have beaten in the last round won't get your slot. Dunno if you like that more. But I 100% can understand why both players need to attend the stage in person. If one or even two players don't come on the stage, why bother doing it offline at all? Why didn't all of you speak up month ago and demanded an online tournament? Covid would be still a thing, that must have been clear to everyone.
ESL doesn't need to be "petty", but they need to consider if they can plan events like this with reliable players. Again, if your players wouldn't be on the same page as you as ESL with the biggest offline event, why bother doing events like this at all?
On February 22 2022 10:19 honorablemacroterran wrote:
On February 22 2022 09:14 Balnazza wrote: As far as I can see, none of the players protested. They probably even knew in advance, just in case. Makes you wonder why they don't protest, huh? Maybe, just maybe, because they also see that there is no real alternative? btw, in CS:GO, same rules apply for playoffs (every player that gets a positive test this week is out, so two positives in a team and they are out) and CS:GO HAS somewhat of a union, still they don't pressure this rule.
How are you on this crusade, when none of the people actually involved seem to care at all? just as a comparison: Most athletes in the Winter Olympics that just ended were extremly unhappy with the location (China). They also had some trouble with the Covid-regulations there. And still, basically no one dropped out. Why? Because for once, they need to play for the money, but maybe even more important they worked their asses off for four years to get to that tournament (and yes, some dreams just got crashed by Covid - shitty, but that happens sadly). SC2 players worked a whole year to get to this event. And while there is a "chance" that they drop out with a positive test, you want them to drop out for sure.
And just on the off-chance players would complain on short notice and ESL had to accomodate them, give everyone the finger that attends the event to watch an empty stage and somehow manage to actually create the space for the players to play from their hotel rooms (in isolation...have fun) - why would they even consider putting up with that in the future? Obviously I don't know the numbers, but I can't imagine ESL is making the big bucks out of SC2 compared to CS:GO or some other ventures they have. So maybe the next offline tourney they cancel paid travel - hey, if you want to go on a strike one day before the event starts, you can atleast pay for your own travels, right?
How do you know?
Because I can see that none of them protested publicly, atleast not that I can find anything...
On February 22 2022 10:33 JJH777 wrote: I'm certain the players care. Them not protesting probably comes down to a few factors: they only found out on the 9th so not a lot of time to understand the full implications of this rule and react, they don't feel they have any say in it, and they likely have a "it won't happen or at least not to me" mentality like most people do about things of this nature. Hell, that seems to be the mentality ESL took about the worse case scenario of a bracket stage DQ since the only place it's been explained how that will be handled is a Reddit post. And I hope that mentality is proven right and my complaints were for nothing. I doubt it though.
I don't really consider spending a few minutes a few times a day writing a post to be a crusade but the reason I care is because I don't think the worst case scenario is that unlikely and it would ruin the event. That being a player who has already lost getting a COVID DQ related revival and winning the event. I want everyone to know that is a realistic possibility and I hope people would agree that would ruin the competitive integrity of the tournament. Unfortunately it seems most people don't care as you are pointing out. I'm guessing that if it actually comes to pass and especially if it happens to a fan favorite people will care a lot more and in that case I doubt these rules survive to the next offline ESL event.
I'd hope ESL wouldn't be that petty about players standing up for themselves but who knows. Regardless I still think it would be in their best interest, especially the ones who are about to go to military. Can you imagine Zest losing his final chance to make significant money on SC2 due to something outside of his control? A bunch of the KR players are at an age where this might be their last IEM before service.
Well, the alternative is what happens in Tennis: If you can't attend your match, it is a defwin for your opponent, so the one you have beaten in the last round won't get your slot. Dunno if you like that more. But I 100% can understand why both players need to attend the stage in person. If one or even two players don't come on the stage, why bother doing it offline at all? Why didn't all of you speak up month ago and demanded an online tournament? Covid would be still a thing, that must have been clear to everyone.
ESL doesn't need to be "petty", but they need to consider if they can plan events like this with reliable players. Again, if your players wouldn't be on the same page as you as ESL with the biggest offline event, why bother doing events like this at all?
Do an offline tournament instead of online because you hope everyone will be able to play on stage? But I just don't get how anyone can think DQing players when they get infected is the preferrable or more fair choice compared to letting them play from a hotel room.
On February 22 2022 10:19 honorablemacroterran wrote:
On February 22 2022 09:14 Balnazza wrote: As far as I can see, none of the players protested. They probably even knew in advance, just in case. Makes you wonder why they don't protest, huh? Maybe, just maybe, because they also see that there is no real alternative? btw, in CS:GO, same rules apply for playoffs (every player that gets a positive test this week is out, so two positives in a team and they are out) and CS:GO HAS somewhat of a union, still they don't pressure this rule.
How are you on this crusade, when none of the people actually involved seem to care at all? just as a comparison: Most athletes in the Winter Olympics that just ended were extremly unhappy with the location (China). They also had some trouble with the Covid-regulations there. And still, basically no one dropped out. Why? Because for once, they need to play for the money, but maybe even more important they worked their asses off for four years to get to that tournament (and yes, some dreams just got crashed by Covid - shitty, but that happens sadly). SC2 players worked a whole year to get to this event. And while there is a "chance" that they drop out with a positive test, you want them to drop out for sure.
And just on the off-chance players would complain on short notice and ESL had to accomodate them, give everyone the finger that attends the event to watch an empty stage and somehow manage to actually create the space for the players to play from their hotel rooms (in isolation...have fun) - why would they even consider putting up with that in the future? Obviously I don't know the numbers, but I can't imagine ESL is making the big bucks out of SC2 compared to CS:GO or some other ventures they have. So maybe the next offline tourney they cancel paid travel - hey, if you want to go on a strike one day before the event starts, you can atleast pay for your own travels, right?
How do you know?
Because I can see that none of them protested publicly, atleast not that I can find anything...
On February 22 2022 10:33 JJH777 wrote: I'm certain the players care. Them not protesting probably comes down to a few factors: they only found out on the 9th so not a lot of time to understand the full implications of this rule and react, they don't feel they have any say in it, and they likely have a "it won't happen or at least not to me" mentality like most people do about things of this nature. Hell, that seems to be the mentality ESL took about the worse case scenario of a bracket stage DQ since the only place it's been explained how that will be handled is a Reddit post. And I hope that mentality is proven right and my complaints were for nothing. I doubt it though.
I don't really consider spending a few minutes a few times a day writing a post to be a crusade but the reason I care is because I don't think the worst case scenario is that unlikely and it would ruin the event. That being a player who has already lost getting a COVID DQ related revival and winning the event. I want everyone to know that is a realistic possibility and I hope people would agree that would ruin the competitive integrity of the tournament. Unfortunately it seems most people don't care as you are pointing out. I'm guessing that if it actually comes to pass and especially if it happens to a fan favorite people will care a lot more and in that case I doubt these rules survive to the next offline ESL event.
I'd hope ESL wouldn't be that petty about players standing up for themselves but who knows. Regardless I still think it would be in their best interest, especially the ones who are about to go to military. Can you imagine Zest losing his final chance to make significant money on SC2 due to something outside of his control? A bunch of the KR players are at an age where this might be their last IEM before service.
Well, the alternative is what happens in Tennis: If you can't attend your match, it is a defwin for your opponent, so the one you have beaten in the last round won't get your slot. Dunno if you like that more. But I 100% can understand why both players need to attend the stage in person. If one or even two players don't come on the stage, why bother doing it offline at all? Why didn't all of you speak up month ago and demanded an online tournament? Covid would be still a thing, that must have been clear to everyone.
ESL doesn't need to be "petty", but they need to consider if they can plan events like this with reliable players. Again, if your players wouldn't be on the same page as you as ESL with the biggest offline event, why bother doing events like this at all?
Do an offline tournament instead of online because you hope everyone will be able to play on stage? But I just don't get how anyone can think DQing players when they get infected is the preferrable or more fair choice compared to letting them play from a hotel room.
It’s a good failsafe, one I’d be in favour of.
Katowice being offline and in person is a real high risk, high reward deal. If it goes smoothly, a real high stakes tournament, without ping, and some atmosphere will be a huge boost for those of us who’ve really missed having a true level field and that extra hype.
It however we get even a few forced drop outs, there’ll be a huge asterisk over its competitive merits as the blue ribbon event, and it’ll really kill the hype for many of us. Playing from a hotel room with a camera isn’t too bad as bad options go.
I was on the fence as to the wisdom of going online, the pandemic isn’t as over as some think, complicated by huge international variance. From what others have said Korea’s having a pretty hefty omicron wave and well, as Starcraft goes you couldn’t pick a worse nation for that to be happening.
On February 22 2022 10:19 honorablemacroterran wrote:
On February 22 2022 09:14 Balnazza wrote: As far as I can see, none of the players protested. They probably even knew in advance, just in case. Makes you wonder why they don't protest, huh? Maybe, just maybe, because they also see that there is no real alternative? btw, in CS:GO, same rules apply for playoffs (every player that gets a positive test this week is out, so two positives in a team and they are out) and CS:GO HAS somewhat of a union, still they don't pressure this rule.
How are you on this crusade, when none of the people actually involved seem to care at all? just as a comparison: Most athletes in the Winter Olympics that just ended were extremly unhappy with the location (China). They also had some trouble with the Covid-regulations there. And still, basically no one dropped out. Why? Because for once, they need to play for the money, but maybe even more important they worked their asses off for four years to get to that tournament (and yes, some dreams just got crashed by Covid - shitty, but that happens sadly). SC2 players worked a whole year to get to this event. And while there is a "chance" that they drop out with a positive test, you want them to drop out for sure.
And just on the off-chance players would complain on short notice and ESL had to accomodate them, give everyone the finger that attends the event to watch an empty stage and somehow manage to actually create the space for the players to play from their hotel rooms (in isolation...have fun) - why would they even consider putting up with that in the future? Obviously I don't know the numbers, but I can't imagine ESL is making the big bucks out of SC2 compared to CS:GO or some other ventures they have. So maybe the next offline tourney they cancel paid travel - hey, if you want to go on a strike one day before the event starts, you can atleast pay for your own travels, right?
How do you know?
Because I can see that none of them protested publicly, atleast not that I can find anything...
On February 22 2022 10:33 JJH777 wrote: I'm certain the players care. Them not protesting probably comes down to a few factors: they only found out on the 9th so not a lot of time to understand the full implications of this rule and react, they don't feel they have any say in it, and they likely have a "it won't happen or at least not to me" mentality like most people do about things of this nature. Hell, that seems to be the mentality ESL took about the worse case scenario of a bracket stage DQ since the only place it's been explained how that will be handled is a Reddit post. And I hope that mentality is proven right and my complaints were for nothing. I doubt it though.
I don't really consider spending a few minutes a few times a day writing a post to be a crusade but the reason I care is because I don't think the worst case scenario is that unlikely and it would ruin the event. That being a player who has already lost getting a COVID DQ related revival and winning the event. I want everyone to know that is a realistic possibility and I hope people would agree that would ruin the competitive integrity of the tournament. Unfortunately it seems most people don't care as you are pointing out. I'm guessing that if it actually comes to pass and especially if it happens to a fan favorite people will care a lot more and in that case I doubt these rules survive to the next offline ESL event.
I'd hope ESL wouldn't be that petty about players standing up for themselves but who knows. Regardless I still think it would be in their best interest, especially the ones who are about to go to military. Can you imagine Zest losing his final chance to make significant money on SC2 due to something outside of his control? A bunch of the KR players are at an age where this might be their last IEM before service.
Well, the alternative is what happens in Tennis: If you can't attend your match, it is a defwin for your opponent, so the one you have beaten in the last round won't get your slot. Dunno if you like that more. But I 100% can understand why both players need to attend the stage in person. If one or even two players don't come on the stage, why bother doing it offline at all? Why didn't all of you speak up month ago and demanded an online tournament? Covid would be still a thing, that must have been clear to everyone.
ESL doesn't need to be "petty", but they need to consider if they can plan events like this with reliable players. Again, if your players wouldn't be on the same page as you as ESL with the biggest offline event, why bother doing events like this at all?
Do an offline tournament instead of online because you hope everyone will be able to play on stage? But I just don't get how anyone can think DQing players when they get infected is the preferrable or more fair choice compared to letting them play from a hotel room.
We'll just have to see how it goes. If there are suddenly 10+ players infected they might revisit their stance on this. As Apollo mentioned, all rules are subject to change
On February 22 2022 10:19 honorablemacroterran wrote:
On February 22 2022 09:14 Balnazza wrote: As far as I can see, none of the players protested. They probably even knew in advance, just in case. Makes you wonder why they don't protest, huh? Maybe, just maybe, because they also see that there is no real alternative? btw, in CS:GO, same rules apply for playoffs (every player that gets a positive test this week is out, so two positives in a team and they are out) and CS:GO HAS somewhat of a union, still they don't pressure this rule.
How are you on this crusade, when none of the people actually involved seem to care at all? just as a comparison: Most athletes in the Winter Olympics that just ended were extremly unhappy with the location (China). They also had some trouble with the Covid-regulations there. And still, basically no one dropped out. Why? Because for once, they need to play for the money, but maybe even more important they worked their asses off for four years to get to that tournament (and yes, some dreams just got crashed by Covid - shitty, but that happens sadly). SC2 players worked a whole year to get to this event. And while there is a "chance" that they drop out with a positive test, you want them to drop out for sure.
And just on the off-chance players would complain on short notice and ESL had to accomodate them, give everyone the finger that attends the event to watch an empty stage and somehow manage to actually create the space for the players to play from their hotel rooms (in isolation...have fun) - why would they even consider putting up with that in the future? Obviously I don't know the numbers, but I can't imagine ESL is making the big bucks out of SC2 compared to CS:GO or some other ventures they have. So maybe the next offline tourney they cancel paid travel - hey, if you want to go on a strike one day before the event starts, you can atleast pay for your own travels, right?
How do you know?
Because I can see that none of them protested publicly, atleast not that I can find anything...
So what makes you think they would protest publicly, genius?
On February 22 2022 10:19 honorablemacroterran wrote:
On February 22 2022 09:14 Balnazza wrote: As far as I can see, none of the players protested. They probably even knew in advance, just in case. Makes you wonder why they don't protest, huh? Maybe, just maybe, because they also see that there is no real alternative? btw, in CS:GO, same rules apply for playoffs (every player that gets a positive test this week is out, so two positives in a team and they are out) and CS:GO HAS somewhat of a union, still they don't pressure this rule.
How are you on this crusade, when none of the people actually involved seem to care at all? just as a comparison: Most athletes in the Winter Olympics that just ended were extremly unhappy with the location (China). They also had some trouble with the Covid-regulations there. And still, basically no one dropped out. Why? Because for once, they need to play for the money, but maybe even more important they worked their asses off for four years to get to that tournament (and yes, some dreams just got crashed by Covid - shitty, but that happens sadly). SC2 players worked a whole year to get to this event. And while there is a "chance" that they drop out with a positive test, you want them to drop out for sure.
And just on the off-chance players would complain on short notice and ESL had to accomodate them, give everyone the finger that attends the event to watch an empty stage and somehow manage to actually create the space for the players to play from their hotel rooms (in isolation...have fun) - why would they even consider putting up with that in the future? Obviously I don't know the numbers, but I can't imagine ESL is making the big bucks out of SC2 compared to CS:GO or some other ventures they have. So maybe the next offline tourney they cancel paid travel - hey, if you want to go on a strike one day before the event starts, you can atleast pay for your own travels, right?
How do you know?
Because I can see that none of them protested publicly, atleast not that I can find anything...
On February 22 2022 10:33 JJH777 wrote: I'm certain the players care. Them not protesting probably comes down to a few factors: they only found out on the 9th so not a lot of time to understand the full implications of this rule and react, they don't feel they have any say in it, and they likely have a "it won't happen or at least not to me" mentality like most people do about things of this nature. Hell, that seems to be the mentality ESL took about the worse case scenario of a bracket stage DQ since the only place it's been explained how that will be handled is a Reddit post. And I hope that mentality is proven right and my complaints were for nothing. I doubt it though.
I don't really consider spending a few minutes a few times a day writing a post to be a crusade but the reason I care is because I don't think the worst case scenario is that unlikely and it would ruin the event. That being a player who has already lost getting a COVID DQ related revival and winning the event. I want everyone to know that is a realistic possibility and I hope people would agree that would ruin the competitive integrity of the tournament. Unfortunately it seems most people don't care as you are pointing out. I'm guessing that if it actually comes to pass and especially if it happens to a fan favorite people will care a lot more and in that case I doubt these rules survive to the next offline ESL event.
I'd hope ESL wouldn't be that petty about players standing up for themselves but who knows. Regardless I still think it would be in their best interest, especially the ones who are about to go to military. Can you imagine Zest losing his final chance to make significant money on SC2 due to something outside of his control? A bunch of the KR players are at an age where this might be their last IEM before service.
Well, the alternative is what happens in Tennis: If you can't attend your match, it is a defwin for your opponent, so the one you have beaten in the last round won't get your slot. Dunno if you like that more. But I 100% can understand why both players need to attend the stage in person. If one or even two players don't come on the stage, why bother doing it offline at all? Why didn't all of you speak up month ago and demanded an online tournament? Covid would be still a thing, that must have been clear to everyone.
ESL doesn't need to be "petty", but they need to consider if they can plan events like this with reliable players. Again, if your players wouldn't be on the same page as you as ESL with the biggest offline event, why bother doing events like this at all?
Do an offline tournament instead of online because you hope everyone will be able to play on stage? But I just don't get how anyone can think DQing players when they get infected is the preferrable or more fair choice compared to letting them play from a hotel room.
We'll just have to see how it goes. If there are suddenly 10+ players infected they might revisit their stance on this. As Apollo mentioned, all rules are subject to change
35/36 players arrived safe and sound so far! Time coming later today:
On February 22 2022 10:19 honorablemacroterran wrote:
On February 22 2022 09:14 Balnazza wrote: As far as I can see, none of the players protested. They probably even knew in advance, just in case. Makes you wonder why they don't protest, huh? Maybe, just maybe, because they also see that there is no real alternative? btw, in CS:GO, same rules apply for playoffs (every player that gets a positive test this week is out, so two positives in a team and they are out) and CS:GO HAS somewhat of a union, still they don't pressure this rule.
How are you on this crusade, when none of the people actually involved seem to care at all? just as a comparison: Most athletes in the Winter Olympics that just ended were extremly unhappy with the location (China). They also had some trouble with the Covid-regulations there. And still, basically no one dropped out. Why? Because for once, they need to play for the money, but maybe even more important they worked their asses off for four years to get to that tournament (and yes, some dreams just got crashed by Covid - shitty, but that happens sadly). SC2 players worked a whole year to get to this event. And while there is a "chance" that they drop out with a positive test, you want them to drop out for sure.
And just on the off-chance players would complain on short notice and ESL had to accomodate them, give everyone the finger that attends the event to watch an empty stage and somehow manage to actually create the space for the players to play from their hotel rooms (in isolation...have fun) - why would they even consider putting up with that in the future? Obviously I don't know the numbers, but I can't imagine ESL is making the big bucks out of SC2 compared to CS:GO or some other ventures they have. So maybe the next offline tourney they cancel paid travel - hey, if you want to go on a strike one day before the event starts, you can atleast pay for your own travels, right?
How do you know?
Because I can see that none of them protested publicly, atleast not that I can find anything...
So what makes you think they would protest publicly, genius?
I'm just going to say that players are definitely not shy, at all, about expressing things they don't like in tournaments. We see that all the time in various tournaments.
On February 22 2022 10:19 honorablemacroterran wrote:
On February 22 2022 09:14 Balnazza wrote: As far as I can see, none of the players protested. They probably even knew in advance, just in case. Makes you wonder why they don't protest, huh? Maybe, just maybe, because they also see that there is no real alternative? btw, in CS:GO, same rules apply for playoffs (every player that gets a positive test this week is out, so two positives in a team and they are out) and CS:GO HAS somewhat of a union, still they don't pressure this rule.
How are you on this crusade, when none of the people actually involved seem to care at all? just as a comparison: Most athletes in the Winter Olympics that just ended were extremly unhappy with the location (China). They also had some trouble with the Covid-regulations there. And still, basically no one dropped out. Why? Because for once, they need to play for the money, but maybe even more important they worked their asses off for four years to get to that tournament (and yes, some dreams just got crashed by Covid - shitty, but that happens sadly). SC2 players worked a whole year to get to this event. And while there is a "chance" that they drop out with a positive test, you want them to drop out for sure.
And just on the off-chance players would complain on short notice and ESL had to accomodate them, give everyone the finger that attends the event to watch an empty stage and somehow manage to actually create the space for the players to play from their hotel rooms (in isolation...have fun) - why would they even consider putting up with that in the future? Obviously I don't know the numbers, but I can't imagine ESL is making the big bucks out of SC2 compared to CS:GO or some other ventures they have. So maybe the next offline tourney they cancel paid travel - hey, if you want to go on a strike one day before the event starts, you can atleast pay for your own travels, right?
How do you know?
Because I can see that none of them protested publicly, atleast not that I can find anything...
On February 22 2022 10:33 JJH777 wrote: I'm certain the players care. Them not protesting probably comes down to a few factors: they only found out on the 9th so not a lot of time to understand the full implications of this rule and react, they don't feel they have any say in it, and they likely have a "it won't happen or at least not to me" mentality like most people do about things of this nature. Hell, that seems to be the mentality ESL took about the worse case scenario of a bracket stage DQ since the only place it's been explained how that will be handled is a Reddit post. And I hope that mentality is proven right and my complaints were for nothing. I doubt it though.
I don't really consider spending a few minutes a few times a day writing a post to be a crusade but the reason I care is because I don't think the worst case scenario is that unlikely and it would ruin the event. That being a player who has already lost getting a COVID DQ related revival and winning the event. I want everyone to know that is a realistic possibility and I hope people would agree that would ruin the competitive integrity of the tournament. Unfortunately it seems most people don't care as you are pointing out. I'm guessing that if it actually comes to pass and especially if it happens to a fan favorite people will care a lot more and in that case I doubt these rules survive to the next offline ESL event.
I'd hope ESL wouldn't be that petty about players standing up for themselves but who knows. Regardless I still think it would be in their best interest, especially the ones who are about to go to military. Can you imagine Zest losing his final chance to make significant money on SC2 due to something outside of his control? A bunch of the KR players are at an age where this might be their last IEM before service.
Well, the alternative is what happens in Tennis: If you can't attend your match, it is a defwin for your opponent, so the one you have beaten in the last round won't get your slot. Dunno if you like that more. But I 100% can understand why both players need to attend the stage in person. If one or even two players don't come on the stage, why bother doing it offline at all? Why didn't all of you speak up month ago and demanded an online tournament? Covid would be still a thing, that must have been clear to everyone.
ESL doesn't need to be "petty", but they need to consider if they can plan events like this with reliable players. Again, if your players wouldn't be on the same page as you as ESL with the biggest offline event, why bother doing events like this at all?
Do an offline tournament instead of online because you hope everyone will be able to play on stage? But I just don't get how anyone can think DQing players when they get infected is the preferrable or more fair choice compared to letting them play from a hotel room.
It’s a good failsafe, one I’d be in favour of.
Katowice being offline and in person is a real high risk, high reward deal. If it goes smoothly, a real high stakes tournament, without ping, and some atmosphere will be a huge boost for those of us who’ve really missed having a true level field and that extra hype.
It however we get even a few forced drop outs, there’ll be a huge asterisk over its competitive merits as the blue ribbon event, and it’ll really kill the hype for many of us. Playing from a hotel room with a camera isn’t too bad as bad options go.
I was on the fence as to the wisdom of going online, the pandemic isn’t as over as some think, complicated by huge international variance. From what others have said Korea’s having a pretty hefty omicron wave and well, as Starcraft goes you couldn’t pick a worse nation for that to be happening.
I agree with this. ESL is taking a gamble. Obviously if ten players get disqualified they will have to change rules or there will be forever be a huge asterisk over the result (and less hype).
On the other hand, if there's only one more DQ or so, especially if they aren't heavy hitters, I think nobody will end up caring.
In any case, pointing out that someone else doesn't seem to be complaining isn't really an argument for why this makes sense. The people in the pro and casting scenes I've talked to about it have agreed that the idea of someone traveling to Katowice for the tournament just to be DQ'd because they got infected on the way there is pretty bad.
On February 23 2022 04:48 honorablemacroterran wrote: In any case, pointing out that someone else doesn't seem to be complaining isn't really an argument for why this makes sense. The people in the pro and casting scenes I've talked to about it have agreed that the idea of someone traveling to Katowice for the tournament just to be DQ'd because they got infected on the way there is pretty bad.
So the person who joined TL a month ago is that connected in the scene? Awesome :O
So what hypothetically happens in the longshot scenario of both a person in the Ro8/4/Final and the loser from the previous round testing positive because they shared the same stage? How far do we reach back for a player? It just seems like in the rush to bring back the excitement of live offline events they haven't thought things through.