EPTWhy so many Protoss matches for high GM in EU? - Page 3
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rogzardo_
24 Posts
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Ars0n_
28 Posts
On July 23 2021 22:33 rogzardo_ wrote: Also, let's keep in mind this problem only affects the highest level of players. For the vast majority of us slogging it out in diamond/masters, this problem doesn't really exist. Disagree all these protoss players now infesting gm and masters have to come from somewhere and its because they are destroying the lower leaguers on their way up. Protoss operators cycling through 3 or for 4 relatively easy to execute all ins is absolutely destroying the ladder experience for more than just the highest level of play. | ||
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nesmah
France26 Posts
Battery : Can only be build in a range of a nexus. This would end instantly the proxy void/battery. Battery purpose is to defend, here there is an abusive way to use it. This is ridiculous how this is simple to execute and hard to hold (TvP) And maybe also increase the cost of a battery (150?), because it allows protoss to take a 3rd at around 3'30 with 1 unit defending and a battery. This should not happen. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 24 2021 00:31 nesmah wrote: A good balance patch would be : Battery : Can only be build in a range of a nexus. This would end instantly the proxy void/battery. Battery purpose is to defend, here there is an abusive way to use it. This is ridiculous how this is simple to execute and hard to hold (TvP) And maybe also increase the cost of a battery (150?), because it allows protoss to take a 3rd at around 3'30 with 1 unit defending and a battery. This should not happen. Also would destabilize PvP as now you cannot defend the ramp with a shield battery on 1 base. Yay! Edit> Also also not intuitive design | ||
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xelnaga_empire
627 Posts
On July 24 2021 00:17 Ars0n_ wrote: Disagree all these protoss players now infesting gm and masters have to come from somewhere and its because they are destroying the lower leaguers on their way up. Protoss operators cycling through 3 or for 4 relatively easy to execute all ins is absolutely destroying the ladder experience for more than just the highest level of play. Yeah, this is what is happening for some players. HeroMarine is really tired of all the TvsP matches. It would be nice if Blizzard added a setting in 1vs1 ladder where players can prioritize the race they want to play against. It doesn't necessarily mean you will get the race you want to play against in the next ladder match, but your odds increase of playing that race. Such a feature would also mean that Protoss players in high EU GM have to wait longer though if nobody wants to play against them. But at least this would add some variety to the matches that people are playing. I can imagine if you get one matchup straight for 23 straight games, like Lambo got 23 PvsZ matches in a row, it gets very boring after a while. | ||
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TLN00
7 Posts
all of my friends who play all races have the same: protoss mmr at least by 500mmr higher. in fact even if they played terran or zerg and switched they within months more w toss (3-5k mmr range) i am positive if u are any league in EU u would be 2 leagues higher w toss minimum.. by reversal, weakest toss GMs are skillwise not stronger than M2 terran/zerg. that explains why there are so many toss in GM.. simple as this. compare anyone who played at least 3k games per every race. above 6k for sure the differences are smaller, but from streams it seems like insane pain too, fe: as a zerg to beat endgame toss u need almost always at minimum 3 different army hotkeys, often 4, while toss is Amove+ storm, i watch GM streamers toss, who have NO army hotkey!! they can just amove all time and watch they HTs to storm (and its not like they lose them coz they have autoattack, so at very least they dont go to suicide instantly like vipers or corruptors do if u miss/panicclick as zerg i rly dont understand WHY protosses have autocast charge or why HTs have any attack at all - (way harder to control if they dont) cherry on top is ofc ridic speed of voids.. even if u win a huge fight, voids can instafly away. why other races dont have such strong quick high dps units? | ||
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TLN00
7 Posts
hard to admit, but if i was a pro plr i for sure would switch to P in this patch. we already see that NA pro scene is basically only protoss, i predict most of minor tourneys worldwide to become as well | ||
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angry_maia
327 Posts
Furthermore, you can rebalance randomized matching so that you have a roughly equal chance of drawing up each match-up. While this could potentially increase wait times, it would actually only really increase wait times for the most popular race (which I take is protoss), thereby slightly incentivizing people to play other races. To use random: I suppose we could just treat random as a "4th" race. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25993 Posts
I don’t think the asymmetric balance has been done particularly well, and it’s got worse over time. Protoss cannot mechanically match Terran microability or the Zerg macro machine and rather than retooling the races a little to equalise a bit, it’s more and more bandaids being applied, especially to Protoss. So now we’re left with a race than can rotate all of the most frustrating allins and turtle styles available, up to a pretty high level on ladder which is a bunch of Bo1s against random people. I’m far from the only Protoss player who would like the race to require more mechanical chops and scale accordingly, but the devs have never really retooled it in that particular direction. | ||
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starvingbox
United States44 Posts
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Syn Harvest
United States191 Posts
So imo what this comes down to is the fact that this can't be patched away. The design of P is poor and if it isn't addressed the game will continue to be this way until it is replaced by another RTS. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 24 2021 03:16 Syn Harvest wrote: + Show Spoiler + It is not balance it is design. The way Protoss is designed makes it forgiving. Thus in the lower leagues Protoss is by far the easiest race to play. However at the top the T and Z players do not make mistakes and when that happens T and Z are better races than P but you don't get to that point until you reach the elite level prop players. Since this is the case Blizzard continued these weird bandaid patches to try and make Protoss competitive at the top level and now we have a broken patch with a bunch of super abusive builds for P to use that is decimating all but the very top players. So imo what this comes down to is the fact that this can't be patched away. The design of P is poor and if it isn't addressed the game will continue to be this way until it is replaced by another RTS. THe core design of both Zerg and Protoss are poor compared to the Terran. And Terran isn't exactly the best either but compared to the PZ ...  So yeah, nothing will be changed or balanced. Mostly because Blizzard needs to balance their own company rather than SC2 which is in the notouch policy. | ||
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TLN00
7 Posts
we already see many decent players/streamers switching to protoss and unrivalled number of upcomers from this race, while terrans and zergs just cry their hearts out. if unchecked, this trend will continue and speed up, leaving just masochists and topnotch top 3-5pros from terrans/zerg in their respective races. at the end of the day, we play the game coz we (used to) love it, but if the end experience is that u have to face protosses one after another with their relatively random, yet so easy to execute and powerful builds, i am not sure.. it s already happening, even at very top, DH qualifiers are over 60% tototal of protosses.. and how long is this patch? give it another half a year or so and i predict 80%+ with virtually all new players coming to the game just choosing protoss. why? because nobody likes to lose, and even more so, if it is by trying (much) harder than the opponent and see him/her laughing hard while he literally uses 1/3 of the effort.. and thanks to this thread also, it is becoming more and more common knowledge, that the race is just broken. hence i suggest its about time: we all switch to protoss , or just quit the game coz it is just far too much not fair hence no fun  | ||
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xelnaga_empire
627 Posts
On July 24 2021 04:41 TLN00 wrote: it s already happening, even at very top, DH qualifiers are over 60% tototal of protosses.. and how long is this patch? give it another half a year or so and i predict 80%+ with virtually all new players coming to the game just choosing protoss. Over 60% of DH qualifiers are Protoss? Is this just for EU qualifiers? Or other regions as well? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25993 Posts
On July 24 2021 03:52 deacon.frost wrote: THe core design of both Zerg and Protoss are poor compared to the Terran. And Terran isn't exactly the best either but compared to the PZ ... So yeah, nothing will be changed or balanced. Mostly because Blizzard needs to balance their own company rather than SC2 which is in the notouch policy.Terran is a big, big part of the problem given how they’re designed, bio pumps out tons of damage, is extremely microable and thus tools have to be given to the other races to get around this. Having a race be the glass cannon/high ranged DPs can absolutely work, Nelves fulfil this nicely in WC3 but there’s way more melee micro and other factors at play in that game, units are less plentiful and more tanky too. It’s a reason say, charge guarantees a hit because without it good Ts will kite for days | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1819 Posts
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Snakestyle11
191 Posts
On July 24 2021 05:20 CicadaSC wrote: Since protoss has a lot of aggressive options it's easier for them to do well on the ladder. In tournaments at the highest level of play, not so much. Player like Dark, Serral, Reynor, Clem, Maru will just shut you down and if anything make protoss look weak. Thats just because protoss being easy doesnt matter once you are at the top level. Once again, the problem isnt balance, PvZ is actually pretty balanced. Its just much harder to play for zerg than protoss. You are expected to use mass queens, vipers, infestors, and move a spore forest with your army. 3 spell casters, like 6 different spell, whilel focus firing every single you wanna kill because carriers. Zergs best unit, the queen, is super slow off creep, and doesnt even work with f2. Meanwhile, protoss is just a-move+storm no matter the comp really. They even gave carriers interceptor autobuild, templars auto attack so you can amove them, and warpgate auto morph. They just made protoss sooo easy. Batteries also use themselves automatically. Protoss almost plays itself when you compare to the other races. You used to be able to stop recall by killing or abducting the mothership core, now theres no counter, protoss just gets a free get out of jail card. Theres so many reasons and its so obvious why protoss is MUCH easier than zerg and terran now. The last thing you needed to do was to buff void rays and battery/canon spam. This made protoss EVEN easier than it was, and now its a total joke. The last patch was the biggest mistake ever in 10 years of starcraft2, and its the patch we are left with... If this game is bleeding out players, its definitely the fault of protoss.(not the players, just the ppl who patched this game). | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
On July 24 2021 01:46 TLN00 wrote: unfortunately the game in its current patch till abt 6k mmr is sth like: Protoss mmr= Terran/Zerg mmr +(500-800) for the same skill. feels bad that my terran and protoss mmr are the same, looks like I am an absolute trash protoss | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
On July 24 2021 05:20 CicadaSC wrote: Since protoss has a lot of aggressive options it's easier for them to do well on the ladder. In tournaments at the highest level of play, not so much. Player like Dark, Serral, Reynor, Clem, Maru will just shut you down and if anything make protoss look weak. for the zergs, yeah buts its always realy close long games because of skytoss turtle. for the terrans, yeah but they still lose alot of games to proxy voids and tempests, sometime even series to just one cheese. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25993 Posts
On July 24 2021 05:45 Andi_Goldberger wrote: feels bad that my terran and protoss mmr are the same, looks like I am an absolute trash protoss I mean I’d assume from my experiences and just general deduction that Protoss just won’t suit everyone and a blanket rule like ‘Protoss MMR is +500 from other races’ is just silly. If you don’t like doing all sorts of wonky all-ins, or your strengths are playing defensively or in mechanics you kind of miss out on a lot that makes Protoss so potent/aggravating to face. In ye olde WoL era where I could 1 rax gasless FE pretty safely in all matchups it took me a week or two to get my Terran off race to be as good, if not better than my Toss. Think it’d be harder now as openers are more technical, but I was naturally better with T and while I haven’t played them I’m pretty convinced Zerg would absolutely be my best race given how I try to play the game. I don’t really like how Toss play tbh, but they’re the cool psionic aliens with baller technology and I played them in BW, so Toss it was! Hopefully I have better luck in race picking this upcoming Frost Giant title! Between Protoss and Nelves in WC3 I pick the race I find cool and it ends up being the most hated race haha | ||
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