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Hi. This is a strange phenomenon that Demuslim was discussing on his stream today and it's kind of getting out of hand with many streamers, not just Demuslim's stream. Right now, I am watching Lambo's stream and Lambo had 23 straight ZvsP matches in a row. When Demuslim streams these days, he also mainly gets Protoss opponents on ladder. And HeroMarine is the same - he also gets mainly Protoss opponents. It's pretty well known for EU ladder at the high GM level, you expect to get Protoss match after Protoss match after Protoss match.
So I looked at the top 50 GM spots for EU GM at https://www.rankedftw.com/ladder/lotv/1v1/mmr/?f=eu. Top 50 GM on EU is about 6146 MMR. What I saw was this for the top 50 in GM EU, which is equal or above 6146 MMR:
13 Terrans (https://www.rankedftw.com/ladder/lotv/1v1/mmr/?f=eu,terran)
10 Zerg (https://www.rankedftw.com/ladder/lotv/1v1/mmr/?f=eu,zerg)
27 Protoss (https://www.rankedftw.com/ladder/lotv/1v1/mmr/?f=eu,protoss)
I have been watching SC2 pro gamers stream for over a decade (since SC2 was released in 2010). I don't recall anything like right now, where streamers at the top level get one matchup over and over again on ladder at the top level. What's more interesting is that Demuslim streams virtually opposite hours as HeroMarine but they both get a lot of Protoss opponents, so it's not a time zone issue either.
Is anybody else seeing this when they watch high level GM streams for the EU server?
Edit: I'm on Lambo's stream right now and Elazer is experiencing the same thing, an overwhelming number of Protoss matches.
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Mexico2170 Posts
Well, Protoss is the easiest race at master level.
I think most Zerg players are stuck on diamond/low masters.
How easy a race is changes depending on the skill level.
Zerg is the easiest race in diamond, as you only need good macro and zero micro to be there. After that you need to micro infectors/vipers and make better surrounds, split vs mines etc. putting a wall against players that got used to just learn to make 25 drones at a time and stomp their opponent.
What I find interesting is that you're saying there's less Zerg than Terran in GM, which is weird because Terran is the hardest race from diamond upwards.
There's also the fact that I believe Zerg is the race with less players across all leagues, so that might have something to do with it.
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France12792 Posts
For better and more accurate representation of the top 50 players, you should merge the dual/triple accounts using something like sc2revealed, because a guy with multiple accounts in top 50 will not be able to play against himself.
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On July 22 2021 00:07 Poopi wrote:
For better and more accurate representation of the top 50 players, you should merge the dual/triple accounts using something like sc2revealed, because a guy with multiple accounts in top 50 will not be able to play against himself.
I agree that a player may be using multiple accounts. But this doesn't change the fact that Demuslim, Lambo, HeroMarine, and now even Elazer are experiencing Protoss match after Protoss match after Protoss match on EU ladder.
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8748 Posts
On July 22 2021 00:13 xelnaga_empire wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2021 00:07 Poopi wrote:
For better and more accurate representation of the top 50 players, you should merge the dual/triple accounts using something like sc2revealed, because a guy with multiple accounts in top 50 will not be able to play against himself. I agree that a player may be using multiple accounts. But this doesn't change the fact that Demuslim, Lambo, HeroMarine, and now even Elazer are experiencing Protoss match after Protoss match after Protoss match on EU ladder.
ultimately none of this matters if you simply look at the race report in players' profiles. no need to guess with indirect things like "how many protoss are in the top 50" when you can look at heromarine's profile or demuslim's profile and see that the vast majority of the games are tvp. the data supports the anecdotes
to try to explain what's going on, another thing to look at is if protoss players tend to play more ladder games than players of the other races. the data is still early in this season but maybe in a week or two, someone could tabulate games played for the top 50 mmr. unfortunately i think when players leave league that resets their games played. idk if a single player has ever gotten a single better tournament result because they left their league on ladder in the weeks preceding the match, but in any case there are a lot of serial league leavers messing up the stats
of course i think the overwhelming factor here is the propensity for every little ladder player to copy the pros and it's just the nature of the game right now that when protoss players copy aggressive pro strats, and when zerg and terran players try to copy how pro zerg and terran players deal with those strats, the protoss players benefit. thus there are simply more protoss players saturating this MMR range than there ought to be but i have no idea what can be done about that. i suppose zergs and terrans have to wait it out and hope the winds shift at some point. that's how it was for bw players for many many years...
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Protoss is an easy race compared to Terran and Zerg. I'm stuck at around 3700MMR on the NA ladder because I just can't beat late game TvZ and TvP. Once Protoss gets Carriers with Storms and/or Disruptors, I lose like 90% of the time. Once Zerg gets Ultras with Lurkers, I lose like 80% of the time. It's honestly depressing and makes me want to stop playing the game. From an entertainment point of view, no one likes to lose their games. If they can win more playing a certain race, they'll definitely do it.
Also from a strategy point of view, I think Protoss has more diverse strategies at the higher levels. You can also keep up or even out macro a Zerg because larva inject is actually pretty hard to do. Or if you want to play aggressive, you can by going for Gateway all in or something. Again, it's a very nice to play but at the absolute top, probably the weakest of all 3. We've all seen what Terrans can do when under the control of Clem or Maru with no ping.
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On July 22 2021 01:03 geokilla wrote:
Protoss is an easy race compared to Terran and Zerg. I'm stuck at around 3700MMR on the NA ladder because I just can't beat late game TvZ and TvP. Once Protoss gets Carriers with Storms and/or Disruptors, I lose like 90% of the time. Once Zerg gets Ultras with Lurkers, I lose like 80% of the time. It's honestly depressing and makes me want to stop playing the game.
yeah coming from BW it amazes how much more powerful late game units are in SC2 compared to mid-tier tech. Hydra vs Carrier is like David vs Goliath.
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Might also be somewhat related to map vetoes (if demuslim/heromarine use any) of each race
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Ladder is one thing but in the end that doesn't completely translate in tournaments at Premier level. Eight Protoss players in the top 16 in DH Masters Summer EU and only two in the top 8. Maybe that will change for the Fall season but I'm betting on the same pattern.
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on the pylon show today serral and reynor said they like to play customs. this obviously really skews the top 50 ladder if both of those are missing.
the obsession with protoss being easy and OP both parts of bw and sc2 community have is kind of crazy imo. I feel like its just a really entrenched narrative thats so integrated in the way people think about the game, no matter how the balance is, there is are always gonna be people mad about protoss.
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On July 22 2021 01:37 Andi_Goldberger wrote:
on the pylon show today serral and reynor said they like to play customs. this obviously really skews the top 50 ladder if both of those are missing.
the obsession with protoss being easy and OP both parts of bw and sc2 community have is kind of crazy imo. I feel like its just a really entrenched narrative thats so integrated in the way people think about the game, no matter how the balance is, there is are always gonna be people mad about protoss.
Well majority of us are casual players right? I'm not expecting the game to be balanced for lesser players like me but no one likes to lose. To lose over 80% of my games after they hit a certain time just sucks.
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On July 22 2021 01:14 WGT-Baal wrote:
Might also be somewhat related to map vetoes (if demuslim/heromarine use any) of each race
that doesnt influece Matchmaking, a big factor(MAYBE, IDK) is that Protoss got new strategies with Voidrays becoming viable, while Mech and other alternative strategies are not there for the other races atm.
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8748 Posts
On July 22 2021 02:52 DERASTAT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2021 01:14 WGT-Baal wrote:
Might also be somewhat related to map vetoes (if demuslim/heromarine use any) of each race that doesnt influece Matchmaking, a big factor(MAYBE, IDK) is that Protoss got new strategies with Voidrays becoming viable, while Mech and other alternative strategies are not there for the other races atm.
map vetoes absolutely work on ranked ladder...
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Its not too complicated just check the patches from last year
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I wonder why these eu protoss aren't translating that to tournaments. If it's just a ladder problem then is it really an issue?
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Can we just get our head out of the sand and stop trying to find dumb reasons and excuses and finally admit that the game is in a pitiful state. This patch is NOT good at all for this game.
Protoss was already easiest race to play, best at lower level but struggled once you got to highest level.
The solution from our godly balance team? Buff the easiest to use protoss things in the game, ultimate gold league strat:
Void rays, batteries and canon spam.
All they did is make the problem even worse....
I wish we could revert the 3 years of stupid patches, and have some actual good patches from ppl that can play 1v1 at high level, and not dumb coop mode changes applied to the real game such as Battlelcruiser teleport, battery overcharge, speedy void rays and micro shroud.
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On July 22 2021 06:37 Snakestyle11 wrote:
Can we just get our head out of the sand and stop trying to find dumb reasons and excuses and finally admit that the game is in a pitiful state. This patch is NOT good at all for this game.
Protoss was already easiest race to play, best at lower level but struggled once you got to highest level.
The solution from our godly balance team? Buff the easiest to use protoss things in the game, ultimate gold league strat:
Void rays, batteries and canon spam.
All they did is make the problem even worse....
I strongly agree with this, but apparently stating the obvious is being toxic. And yeah it isn't a balance issue per se because the highest level Z/T can deal with P (in fact so well that P hasn't won a "real" premier tournament in years) but it's definitely a problem. I don't have miracle solutions but things like removing charge autocast (T players have to do such interactions with bio all the time to get full effectiveness out of their bio, so this could up the skill needed to maneuver gateway armies a bit) or balance void ray shield / health ratio could be studied. Once again I hope ESL can seize the power to patch the game because while not being downright horrible, this is indeed not a great patch.
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On July 22 2021 06:49 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2021 06:37 Snakestyle11 wrote:
Can we just get our head out of the sand and stop trying to find dumb reasons and excuses and finally admit that the game is in a pitiful state. This patch is NOT good at all for this game.
Protoss was already easiest race to play, best at lower level but struggled once you got to highest level.
The solution from our godly balance team? Buff the easiest to use protoss things in the game, ultimate gold league strat:
Void rays, batteries and canon spam.
All they did is make the problem even worse.... I strongly agree with this, but apparently stating the obvious is being toxic. And yeah it isn't a balance issue per se because the highest level Z/T can deal with P (in fact so well that P hasn't won a "real" premier tournament in years) but it's definitely a problem. I don't have miracle solutions but things like removing charge autocast (T players have to do such interactions with bio all the time to get full effectiveness out of their bio, so this could up the skill needed to maneuver gateway armies a bit) or balance void ray shield / health ratio could be studied. Once again I hope ESL can seize the power to patch the game because while not being downright horrible, this is indeed not a great patch.
But then Protoss players will say if you needed to press a button to activate charge, it'll make their race harder to play, meaning at the highest level, it'll make it more difficult for Protoss players to win a premier tournament.
I think SC2 is going to stay like this for the rest of its life and then slowly die off after the ESL contract is up. First, coding in a new patch isn't easy. Second, ESL is a business and they want to make money. But if CS:GO isn't making ESL any money, there's no way SC2 is making them money. Third, I find SC2 lacks tournaments or competition in general for players who are not at the very top. League of Legends and CS:GO has a system where upcoming Tier 2 and 3 players or teams can play and compete to try and eventually break into Tier 1. Playing in these tournaments gets them exposure and for tier 1 teams to pick them up if they identify them as a prospect. Of course, there's prize money too. But I rarely see the same available for SC2. Having open qualifiers like the ones that are currently running is nice, but I'd like to see more for tournaments for these tier 2 players. Like the LCS, it may not be the highest level of gameplay compared to LPL, but it can still be very entertaining and give these prospects a chance of making it to the very top.
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On July 22 2021 06:49 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2021 06:37 Snakestyle11 wrote:
Can we just get our head out of the sand and stop trying to find dumb reasons and excuses and finally admit that the game is in a pitiful state. This patch is NOT good at all for this game.
Protoss was already easiest race to play, best at lower level but struggled once you got to highest level.
The solution from our godly balance team? Buff the easiest to use protoss things in the game, ultimate gold league strat:
Void rays, batteries and canon spam.
All they did is make the problem even worse.... I strongly agree with this, but apparently stating the obvious is being toxic. And yeah it isn't a balance issue per se because the highest level Z/T can deal with P (in fact so well that P hasn't won a "real" premier tournament in years) but it's definitely a problem. I don't have miracle solutions but things like removing charge autocast (T players have to do such interactions with bio all the time to get full effectiveness out of their bio, so this could up the skill needed to maneuver gateway armies a bit) or balance void ray shield / health ratio could be studied. Once again I hope ESL can seize the power to patch the game because while not being downright horrible, this is indeed not a great patch.
Is there a reason to believe that zealot charge in particular is problematic? That seems to me like a very strange choice of nerf. Super batteries or void rays seem like clearer problems to me.
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Played Protoss for years, was mid to high Masters. Stopped playing for some time.
Switched to Terran, am stuck in High Diamond after 300+ games. Very confident I could be a Masters Protoss again. Protoss is really strong right now, the Void Ray buff was dumb (must have totally destroyed Team Games where Voids were already very strong), I think Shield Batteries are too cheap too, Protoss can get away with too much in the early game at least versus Terran.
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EPT
