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Why so many Protoss matches for high GM in EU? - Page 5

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Mlord
Profile Joined February 2013
France135 Posts
July 25 2021 10:04 GMT
#81
On July 25 2021 06:22 CicadaSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2021 02:36 Mlord wrote:
Yearly reminder that there is still no counterplay to DT blink in lategame, no counterplay in a RTS SEND HELP


put a liberator on top of your planetary and if u wanna go crazy, a widowmine or 2. Maru does it all the time.


Thanks for your deep understanding of the problem master
Progamer
[PkF] Wire
Profile Joined March 2013
France24239 Posts
July 25 2021 18:57 GMT
#82
50% of the qualified players for DH EU are Protoss, and most of them will be cannon fodder for the big guns. So yeah, the huge overrepresentation of P players at the "just below top level" narrative is true, at least in this region. Admittedly more of a design problem than a balance problem per se, but still a problem imo.
CicadaSC
Profile Joined January 2018
United States2037 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-07-25 19:58:35
July 25 2021 19:54 GMT
#83
On July 25 2021 19:04 Mlord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2021 06:22 CicadaSC wrote:
On July 25 2021 02:36 Mlord wrote:
Yearly reminder that there is still no counterplay to DT blink in lategame, no counterplay in a RTS SEND HELP


put a liberator on top of your planetary and if u wanna go crazy, a widowmine or 2. Maru does it all the time.


Thanks for your deep understanding of the problem master

A lib and a few mines is less supply and cost less than dt hitsquads. Not sure if you want to elaborate on why this is not a good answer?? Dts usually have to blink to get onto a planetary which will mean they are literally blinking into mines and a liberator field. As long as you can repair before the 3rd volley of dt swipes you should be completely fine.
Remember that we all come from a place of passion!!
BonitiilloO
Profile Joined June 2013
Dominican Republic627 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-07-25 20:39:03
July 25 2021 20:12 GMT
#84
On July 22 2021 01:03 geokilla wrote:
Protoss is an easy race compared to Terran and Zerg. I'm stuck at around 3700MMR on the NA ladder because I just can't beat late game TvZ and TvP. Once Protoss gets Carriers with Storms and/or Disruptors, I lose like 90% of the time. Once Zerg gets Ultras with Lurkers, I lose like 80% of the time. It's honestly depressing and makes me want to stop playing the game. From an entertainment point of view, no one likes to lose their games. If they can win more playing a certain race, they'll definitely do it.

Also from a strategy point of view, I think Protoss has more diverse strategies at the higher levels. You can also keep up or even out macro a Zerg because larva inject is actually pretty hard to do. Or if you want to play aggressive, you can by going for Gateway all in or something. Again, it's a very nice to play but at the absolute top, probably the weakest of all 3. We've all seen what Terrans can do when under the control of Clem or Maru with no ping.


same reasons i wet back to play Broodwar.

SC2 Terran late game feels so weak, i saw a game the other day Maru vs Serral and i was kind of laughing at the Terran having 130ish supply when Zerg was almost 200ish with a lot better economy plus more bases how is a Terran supposed to complete with that when Terran doesn't have effective AOE spells like toss do?
How may help u?
Scarlett`
Profile Joined April 2011
Korea (South)2446 Posts
July 25 2021 20:40 GMT
#85
On July 26 2021 03:57 [PkF] Wire wrote:
50% of the qualified players for DH EU are Protoss, and most of them will be cannon fodder for the big guns. So yeah, the huge overrepresentation of P players at the "just below top level" narrative is true, at least in this region. Admittedly more of a design problem than a balance problem per se, but still a problem imo.

Top level builds translate better to qualifiers too for protoss it seems
Progamer一条咸鱼
stilt
Profile Joined October 2012
France2755 Posts
July 25 2021 20:42 GMT
#86
On July 24 2021 20:44 Charoisaur wrote:
Protoss is a harder race than Terran or Zerg so their players have to practice harder. Terran and Zerg pros are mostly hanging around at beaches in tank tops while Protoss players grind the ladder and then when they occassionally start up a ladder game they obviously will face Protoss


If that so, how come Tobias, Zest, herO or Bisu are all supermodels ?
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12134 Posts
July 27 2021 07:51 GMT
#87
On July 25 2021 19:04 Mlord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2021 06:22 CicadaSC wrote:
On July 25 2021 02:36 Mlord wrote:
Yearly reminder that there is still no counterplay to DT blink in lategame, no counterplay in a RTS SEND HELP


put a liberator on top of your planetary and if u wanna go crazy, a widowmine or 2. Maru does it all the time.


Thanks for your deep understanding of the problem master

It doesn't matter, Blizzard won't patch it anyway so you either find some way or give up I chose the latter but I don't rely on SC2 to make monies.

On July 26 2021 05:40 Scarlett` wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2021 03:57 [PkF] Wire wrote:
50% of the qualified players for DH EU are Protoss, and most of them will be cannon fodder for the big guns. So yeah, the huge overrepresentation of P players at the "just below top level" narrative is true, at least in this region. Admittedly more of a design problem than a balance problem per se, but still a problem imo.

Top level builds translate better to qualifiers too for protoss it seems

Well qualifiers are in the end just BO3, aren't they? And BO3 is still considered quite volatile that's why we have usually a double elimination bracket.
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
Ciaus_Dronu
Profile Joined June 2017
South Africa1848 Posts
July 27 2021 09:09 GMT
#88
On July 27 2021 16:51 deacon.frost wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2021 19:04 Mlord wrote:
On July 25 2021 06:22 CicadaSC wrote:
On July 25 2021 02:36 Mlord wrote:
Yearly reminder that there is still no counterplay to DT blink in lategame, no counterplay in a RTS SEND HELP


put a liberator on top of your planetary and if u wanna go crazy, a widowmine or 2. Maru does it all the time.


Thanks for your deep understanding of the problem master

It doesn't matter, Blizzard won't patch it anyway so you either find some way or give up I chose the latter but I don't rely on SC2 to make monies.

Show nested quote +
On July 26 2021 05:40 Scarlett` wrote:
On July 26 2021 03:57 [PkF] Wire wrote:
50% of the qualified players for DH EU are Protoss, and most of them will be cannon fodder for the big guns. So yeah, the huge overrepresentation of P players at the "just below top level" narrative is true, at least in this region. Admittedly more of a design problem than a balance problem per se, but still a problem imo.

Top level builds translate better to qualifiers too for protoss it seems

Well qualifiers are in the end just BO3, aren't they? And BO3 is still considered quite volatile that's why we have usually a double elimination bracket.


Qualifying matches were best of 5, which is as at least as long and "stable" as the majority of tournament matches.

Post qualifiers we have:
EU - 15 Protoss, 17 not Protoss.
NA - 9 Protoss, 7 not Protoss.

KR is on a slightly different system (although they already have 4 protoss and 2 non Protoss qualified in for the season finals). The other regions are substantially less relevant, but here's a breakdown anyway:

Latam - 1 protoss 7 non protoss
China - 4 protoss 4 not
TW / HK / MO / JP - 3 protoss 5 not
Oceania - 4 protoss 4 not.

Unless you only watch Latam games, pretty much anywhere you go on the DH circuit (including likely the season finals at this rate), about half the players you will see are gonna be protoss.


KalWarkov
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Germany4126 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-07-27 09:57:05
July 27 2021 09:51 GMT
#89
protoss is a more strategic race and less of a mechanically driven one.

that makes it the "easiest" race up to ~6.3k
from that point on, i feel like things are pretty equal up to 6.7k ish, and then, the mechanically driven races take over.
that doesn't mean that "LUL protoss weak in pro sc2", it just means that mechanics can carry godlike players more consistantly with terran and especially zerg (on the ladder)

this leads to most pro protoss being stuck at 6.6k, but there being more of them, while the spread of terran and zerg is pretty even at all levels amongst their ppl. many zerg/terran players on a lower pro level or below tend to give up frustrated earlier or simply don't have the required "talent" and speed to progress.
a 6.6k protoss with a different race from the get go would either be a frustrated 6.2k terran/zerg or - less likely - a 6.9k terran/zerg, depending on their mechanics.
again, that doesn't mean protoss requires no mechanics at all, espeically at pro level, but you can go much further with just "solid" mechanics and smart plays than with other races, while you need godlike mechanics with terran/zerg - while you probably get more consistantly good results with these races even if you get out-stratagized every game (zerg being the even more extreme example).

that's how i see things at least.
DiaBoLuS ** Sc2 - Protoss: 16x GM | Dota2 - Offlane Immortal | Wc3 - Undead decent level | Diablo nerd | Chess / Magnus fanboy | BVB | Agnostic***
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12134 Posts
July 27 2021 10:22 GMT
#90
On July 27 2021 18:09 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2021 16:51 deacon.frost wrote:
On July 25 2021 19:04 Mlord wrote:
On July 25 2021 06:22 CicadaSC wrote:
On July 25 2021 02:36 Mlord wrote:
Yearly reminder that there is still no counterplay to DT blink in lategame, no counterplay in a RTS SEND HELP


put a liberator on top of your planetary and if u wanna go crazy, a widowmine or 2. Maru does it all the time.


Thanks for your deep understanding of the problem master

It doesn't matter, Blizzard won't patch it anyway so you either find some way or give up I chose the latter but I don't rely on SC2 to make monies.

On July 26 2021 05:40 Scarlett` wrote:
On July 26 2021 03:57 [PkF] Wire wrote:
50% of the qualified players for DH EU are Protoss, and most of them will be cannon fodder for the big guns. So yeah, the huge overrepresentation of P players at the "just below top level" narrative is true, at least in this region. Admittedly more of a design problem than a balance problem per se, but still a problem imo.

Top level builds translate better to qualifiers too for protoss it seems

Well qualifiers are in the end just BO3, aren't they? And BO3 is still considered quite volatile that's why we have usually a double elimination bracket.


Qualifying matches were best of 5, which is as at least as long and "stable" as the majority of tournament matches.

Post qualifiers we have:
EU - 15 Protoss, 17 not Protoss.
NA - 9 Protoss, 7 not Protoss.

KR is on a slightly different system (although they already have 4 protoss and 2 non Protoss qualified in for the season finals). The other regions are substantially less relevant, but here's a breakdown anyway:

Latam - 1 protoss 7 non protoss
China - 4 protoss 4 not
TW / HK / MO / JP - 3 protoss 5 not
Oceania - 4 protoss 4 not.

Unless you only watch Latam games, pretty much anywhere you go on the DH circuit (including likely the season finals at this rate), about half the players you will see are gonna be protoss.



OK, I checked the qualis and it was bo3 -> bo5. So some players can lose in the bo3 and then the bo5 doesn't matter much.
Also I am not watching it anyway, vote with your wallet if you don';t like something.
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
[PkF] Wire
Profile Joined March 2013
France24239 Posts
July 27 2021 12:49 GMT
#91
On July 27 2021 18:51 KalWarkov wrote:
protoss is a more strategic race and less of a mechanically driven one.

that makes it the "easiest" race up to ~6.3k
from that point on, i feel like things are pretty equal up to 6.7k ish, and then, the mechanically driven races take over.
that doesn't mean that "LUL protoss weak in pro sc2", it just means that mechanics can carry godlike players more consistantly with terran and especially zerg (on the ladder)

this leads to most pro protoss being stuck at 6.6k, but there being more of them, while the spread of terran and zerg is pretty even at all levels amongst their ppl. many zerg/terran players on a lower pro level or below tend to give up frustrated earlier or simply don't have the required "talent" and speed to progress.
a 6.6k protoss with a different race from the get go would either be a frustrated 6.2k terran/zerg or - less likely - a 6.9k terran/zerg, depending on their mechanics.
again, that doesn't mean protoss requires no mechanics at all, espeically at pro level, but you can go much further with just "solid" mechanics and smart plays than with other races, while you need godlike mechanics with terran/zerg - while you probably get more consistantly good results with these races even if you get out-stratagized every game (zerg being the even more extreme example).

that's how i see things at least.

that's pretty accurate imo. In an ideal world Protoss would be changed to be a bit more mechanically demanding without making the race less competitive at the world class level, but I guess we have to deal with the fact Protoss will be overrepresented in the early stages of every tournament for the time being.
Furikawari
Profile Joined February 2014
France2522 Posts
July 27 2021 13:14 GMT
#92
On July 27 2021 18:51 KalWarkov wrote:
protoss is a more strategic race and less of a mechanically driven one.

that makes it the "easiest" race up to ~6.3k
from that point on, i feel like things are pretty equal up to 6.7k ish, and then, the mechanically driven races take over.
that doesn't mean that "LUL protoss weak in pro sc2", it just means that mechanics can carry godlike players more consistantly with terran and especially zerg (on the ladder)

this leads to most pro protoss being stuck at 6.6k, but there being more of them, while the spread of terran and zerg is pretty even at all levels amongst their ppl. many zerg/terran players on a lower pro level or below tend to give up frustrated earlier or simply don't have the required "talent" and speed to progress.
a 6.6k protoss with a different race from the get go would either be a frustrated 6.2k terran/zerg or - less likely - a 6.9k terran/zerg, depending on their mechanics.
again, that doesn't mean protoss requires no mechanics at all, espeically at pro level, but you can go much further with just "solid" mechanics and smart plays than with other races, while you need godlike mechanics with terran/zerg - while you probably get more consistantly good results with these races even if you get out-stratagized every game (zerg being the even more extreme example).

that's how i see things at least.


I preach this for ten years, thank you for writing it so well.
Fanatic-Templar
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada5819 Posts
July 27 2021 14:03 GMT
#93
On July 27 2021 18:51 KalWarkov wrote:
protoss is a more strategic race and less of a mechanically driven one.

that makes it the "easiest" race up to ~6.3k


I just played a Terran who didn't build units, tried to rush out expansions behind Planetary Fortresses and Missile Turrets with building upgrades while going to mass Ravens, thinks that not idling Gateways is a "rush" and is convinced the only reason he lost is Protoss imba. This guy is in Diamond League, and he's not the only Terran I've seen at that level try these kinds of strats. You will never convince me that this guy was playing a "harder" race, even if we were well below 6.3k.

Asymmetric races are going to spike at different levels, and if Protoss isn't imbalanced at higher levels and isn't imbalanced at lower levels, why exactly should the game be changed for this specific, narrow band of player skill?
I bear this sig to commemorate the loss of the team icon that commemorated Oversky's 2008-2009 Proleague Round 1 performance.
SpecKROELLchen
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany151 Posts
July 27 2021 14:44 GMT
#94
On July 26 2021 04:54 CicadaSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2021 19:04 Mlord wrote:
On July 25 2021 06:22 CicadaSC wrote:
On July 25 2021 02:36 Mlord wrote:
Yearly reminder that there is still no counterplay to DT blink in lategame, no counterplay in a RTS SEND HELP


put a liberator on top of your planetary and if u wanna go crazy, a widowmine or 2. Maru does it all the time.


Thanks for your deep understanding of the problem master

A lib and a few mines is less supply and cost less than dt hitsquads. Not sure if you want to elaborate on why this is not a good answer?? Dts usually have to blink to get onto a planetary which will mean they are literally blinking into mines and a liberator field. As long as you can repair before the 3rd volley of dt swipes you should be completely fine.


Heromarine showed all the problems of defending blinked dts multiple times on stream. It is just not as simple as putting 2 mines and a lib at the planetary. What if you are on 5 bases? should you do it everywhere. When you premove the blink the dt squad so they spreaded around the planetary, you can even kill the planetary despite being 2 mines and a lib there. The pros are not stupid, its a reason not everyone does it. So i understand why this answer didn't have anough quality.
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12134 Posts
July 27 2021 16:48 GMT
#95
On July 27 2021 23:44 SpecKROELLchen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2021 04:54 CicadaSC wrote:
On July 25 2021 19:04 Mlord wrote:
On July 25 2021 06:22 CicadaSC wrote:
On July 25 2021 02:36 Mlord wrote:
Yearly reminder that there is still no counterplay to DT blink in lategame, no counterplay in a RTS SEND HELP


put a liberator on top of your planetary and if u wanna go crazy, a widowmine or 2. Maru does it all the time.


Thanks for your deep understanding of the problem master

A lib and a few mines is less supply and cost less than dt hitsquads. Not sure if you want to elaborate on why this is not a good answer?? Dts usually have to blink to get onto a planetary which will mean they are literally blinking into mines and a liberator field. As long as you can repair before the 3rd volley of dt swipes you should be completely fine.


Heromarine showed all the problems of defending blinked dts multiple times on stream. It is just not as simple as putting 2 mines and a lib at the planetary. What if you are on 5 bases? should you do it everywhere. When you premove the blink the dt squad so they spreaded around the planetary, you can even kill the planetary despite being 2 mines and a lib there. The pros are not stupid, its a reason not everyone does it. So i understand why this answer didn't have anough quality.

Well, the issue is that Blizz won't touch the game and the top Terrans are not vocal enough about it. Koreans are silent and HM isn't enough. Not that the Koreans being vocal would help in any way considering the inferno on the social networks Blizz is in right now, so this tiny fire would be probably unnoticed anyway.

Bad timing, really bad timing.
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
xelnaga_empire
Profile Joined March 2012
627 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-08-25 12:50:50
August 25 2021 12:50 GMT
#96
On the Pylon show today, Lambo, ShowTime, and HeroMarine were discussing how GM in EU ladder is overrun by Protoss and everyone is getting so many Protoss games on ladder: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1128913356. Unfortunately, I am not a subscriber to Rotti's channel so I can't view the VOD or mark the exact time they discussed this, but roughly, it should be around the 1 hour 25 minute mark to 1 hour 45 minute mark in the VOD where they discuss this.

Lambo says about 75% of this matches on ladder are against Protoss (that leaves 25% against Terran and Zerg). And ShowTime also acknowledged he is getting swamped with PvsP on ladder. And of course, Big Gabe already gets a large number of Protoss matches on ladder.
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