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On July 25 2021 06:22 CicadaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2021 02:36 Mlord wrote: Yearly reminder that there is still no counterplay to DT blink in lategame, no counterplay in a RTS SEND HELP put a liberator on top of your planetary and if u wanna go crazy, a widowmine or 2. Maru does it all the time.
Thanks for your deep understanding of the problem master
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50% of the qualified players for DH EU are Protoss, and most of them will be cannon fodder for the big guns. So yeah, the huge overrepresentation of P players at the "just below top level" narrative is true, at least in this region. Admittedly more of a design problem than a balance problem per se, but still a problem imo.
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On July 25 2021 19:04 Mlord wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2021 06:22 CicadaSC wrote:On July 25 2021 02:36 Mlord wrote: Yearly reminder that there is still no counterplay to DT blink in lategame, no counterplay in a RTS SEND HELP put a liberator on top of your planetary and if u wanna go crazy, a widowmine or 2. Maru does it all the time. Thanks for your deep understanding of the problem master A lib and a few mines is less supply and cost less than dt hitsquads. Not sure if you want to elaborate on why this is not a good answer?? Dts usually have to blink to get onto a planetary which will mean they are literally blinking into mines and a liberator field. As long as you can repair before the 3rd volley of dt swipes you should be completely fine.
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Dominican Republic587 Posts
On July 22 2021 01:03 geokilla wrote: Protoss is an easy race compared to Terran and Zerg. I'm stuck at around 3700MMR on the NA ladder because I just can't beat late game TvZ and TvP. Once Protoss gets Carriers with Storms and/or Disruptors, I lose like 90% of the time. Once Zerg gets Ultras with Lurkers, I lose like 80% of the time. It's honestly depressing and makes me want to stop playing the game. From an entertainment point of view, no one likes to lose their games. If they can win more playing a certain race, they'll definitely do it.
Also from a strategy point of view, I think Protoss has more diverse strategies at the higher levels. You can also keep up or even out macro a Zerg because larva inject is actually pretty hard to do. Or if you want to play aggressive, you can by going for Gateway all in or something. Again, it's a very nice to play but at the absolute top, probably the weakest of all 3. We've all seen what Terrans can do when under the control of Clem or Maru with no ping.
same reasons i wet back to play Broodwar.
SC2 Terran late game feels so weak, i saw a game the other day Maru vs Serral and i was kind of laughing at the Terran having 130ish supply when Zerg was almost 200ish with a lot better economy plus more bases how is a Terran supposed to complete with that when Terran doesn't have effective AOE spells like toss do?
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On July 26 2021 03:57 [PkF] Wire wrote: 50% of the qualified players for DH EU are Protoss, and most of them will be cannon fodder for the big guns. So yeah, the huge overrepresentation of P players at the "just below top level" narrative is true, at least in this region. Admittedly more of a design problem than a balance problem per se, but still a problem imo. Top level builds translate better to qualifiers too for protoss it seems
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On July 24 2021 20:44 Charoisaur wrote: Protoss is a harder race than Terran or Zerg so their players have to practice harder. Terran and Zerg pros are mostly hanging around at beaches in tank tops while Protoss players grind the ladder and then when they occassionally start up a ladder game they obviously will face Protoss
If that so, how come Tobias, Zest, herO or Bisu are all supermodels ?
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Czech Republic12115 Posts
On July 25 2021 19:04 Mlord wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2021 06:22 CicadaSC wrote:On July 25 2021 02:36 Mlord wrote: Yearly reminder that there is still no counterplay to DT blink in lategame, no counterplay in a RTS SEND HELP put a liberator on top of your planetary and if u wanna go crazy, a widowmine or 2. Maru does it all the time. Thanks for your deep understanding of the problem master It doesn't matter, Blizzard won't patch it anyway so you either find some way or give up I chose the latter but I don't rely on SC2 to make monies.
On July 26 2021 05:40 Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2021 03:57 [PkF] Wire wrote: 50% of the qualified players for DH EU are Protoss, and most of them will be cannon fodder for the big guns. So yeah, the huge overrepresentation of P players at the "just below top level" narrative is true, at least in this region. Admittedly more of a design problem than a balance problem per se, but still a problem imo. Top level builds translate better to qualifiers too for protoss it seems Well qualifiers are in the end just BO3, aren't they? And BO3 is still considered quite volatile that's why we have usually a double elimination bracket.
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On July 27 2021 16:51 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2021 19:04 Mlord wrote:On July 25 2021 06:22 CicadaSC wrote:On July 25 2021 02:36 Mlord wrote: Yearly reminder that there is still no counterplay to DT blink in lategame, no counterplay in a RTS SEND HELP put a liberator on top of your planetary and if u wanna go crazy, a widowmine or 2. Maru does it all the time. Thanks for your deep understanding of the problem master It doesn't matter, Blizzard won't patch it anyway so you either find some way or give up I chose the latter but I don't rely on SC2 to make monies. Show nested quote +On July 26 2021 05:40 Scarlett` wrote:On July 26 2021 03:57 [PkF] Wire wrote: 50% of the qualified players for DH EU are Protoss, and most of them will be cannon fodder for the big guns. So yeah, the huge overrepresentation of P players at the "just below top level" narrative is true, at least in this region. Admittedly more of a design problem than a balance problem per se, but still a problem imo. Top level builds translate better to qualifiers too for protoss it seems Well qualifiers are in the end just BO3, aren't they? And BO3 is still considered quite volatile that's why we have usually a double elimination bracket.
Qualifying matches were best of 5, which is as at least as long and "stable" as the majority of tournament matches.
Post qualifiers we have: EU - 15 Protoss, 17 not Protoss. NA - 9 Protoss, 7 not Protoss.
KR is on a slightly different system (although they already have 4 protoss and 2 non Protoss qualified in for the season finals). The other regions are substantially less relevant, but here's a breakdown anyway:
Latam - 1 protoss 7 non protoss China - 4 protoss 4 not TW / HK / MO / JP - 3 protoss 5 not Oceania - 4 protoss 4 not.
Unless you only watch Latam games, pretty much anywhere you go on the DH circuit (including likely the season finals at this rate), about half the players you will see are gonna be protoss.
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protoss is a more strategic race and less of a mechanically driven one.
that makes it the "easiest" race up to ~6.3k from that point on, i feel like things are pretty equal up to 6.7k ish, and then, the mechanically driven races take over. that doesn't mean that "LUL protoss weak in pro sc2", it just means that mechanics can carry godlike players more consistantly with terran and especially zerg (on the ladder)
this leads to most pro protoss being stuck at 6.6k, but there being more of them, while the spread of terran and zerg is pretty even at all levels amongst their ppl. many zerg/terran players on a lower pro level or below tend to give up frustrated earlier or simply don't have the required "talent" and speed to progress. a 6.6k protoss with a different race from the get go would either be a frustrated 6.2k terran/zerg or - less likely - a 6.9k terran/zerg, depending on their mechanics. again, that doesn't mean protoss requires no mechanics at all, espeically at pro level, but you can go much further with just "solid" mechanics and smart plays than with other races, while you need godlike mechanics with terran/zerg - while you probably get more consistantly good results with these races even if you get out-stratagized every game (zerg being the even more extreme example).
that's how i see things at least.
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Czech Republic12115 Posts
On July 27 2021 18:09 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2021 16:51 deacon.frost wrote:On July 25 2021 19:04 Mlord wrote:On July 25 2021 06:22 CicadaSC wrote:On July 25 2021 02:36 Mlord wrote: Yearly reminder that there is still no counterplay to DT blink in lategame, no counterplay in a RTS SEND HELP put a liberator on top of your planetary and if u wanna go crazy, a widowmine or 2. Maru does it all the time. Thanks for your deep understanding of the problem master It doesn't matter, Blizzard won't patch it anyway so you either find some way or give up I chose the latter but I don't rely on SC2 to make monies. On July 26 2021 05:40 Scarlett` wrote:On July 26 2021 03:57 [PkF] Wire wrote: 50% of the qualified players for DH EU are Protoss, and most of them will be cannon fodder for the big guns. So yeah, the huge overrepresentation of P players at the "just below top level" narrative is true, at least in this region. Admittedly more of a design problem than a balance problem per se, but still a problem imo. Top level builds translate better to qualifiers too for protoss it seems Well qualifiers are in the end just BO3, aren't they? And BO3 is still considered quite volatile that's why we have usually a double elimination bracket. Qualifying matches were best of 5, which is as at least as long and "stable" as the majority of tournament matches. Post qualifiers we have: EU - 15 Protoss, 17 not Protoss. NA - 9 Protoss, 7 not Protoss. KR is on a slightly different system (although they already have 4 protoss and 2 non Protoss qualified in for the season finals). The other regions are substantially less relevant, but here's a breakdown anyway: Latam - 1 protoss 7 non protoss China - 4 protoss 4 not TW / HK / MO / JP - 3 protoss 5 not Oceania - 4 protoss 4 not. Unless you only watch Latam games, pretty much anywhere you go on the DH circuit (including likely the season finals at this rate), about half the players you will see are gonna be protoss. OK, I checked the qualis and it was bo3 -> bo5. So some players can lose in the bo3 and then the bo5 doesn't matter much. Also I am not watching it anyway, vote with your wallet if you don';t like something.
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On July 27 2021 18:51 KalWarkov wrote: protoss is a more strategic race and less of a mechanically driven one.
that makes it the "easiest" race up to ~6.3k from that point on, i feel like things are pretty equal up to 6.7k ish, and then, the mechanically driven races take over. that doesn't mean that "LUL protoss weak in pro sc2", it just means that mechanics can carry godlike players more consistantly with terran and especially zerg (on the ladder)
this leads to most pro protoss being stuck at 6.6k, but there being more of them, while the spread of terran and zerg is pretty even at all levels amongst their ppl. many zerg/terran players on a lower pro level or below tend to give up frustrated earlier or simply don't have the required "talent" and speed to progress. a 6.6k protoss with a different race from the get go would either be a frustrated 6.2k terran/zerg or - less likely - a 6.9k terran/zerg, depending on their mechanics. again, that doesn't mean protoss requires no mechanics at all, espeically at pro level, but you can go much further with just "solid" mechanics and smart plays than with other races, while you need godlike mechanics with terran/zerg - while you probably get more consistantly good results with these races even if you get out-stratagized every game (zerg being the even more extreme example).
that's how i see things at least. that's pretty accurate imo. In an ideal world Protoss would be changed to be a bit more mechanically demanding without making the race less competitive at the world class level, but I guess we have to deal with the fact Protoss will be overrepresented in the early stages of every tournament for the time being.
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On July 27 2021 18:51 KalWarkov wrote: protoss is a more strategic race and less of a mechanically driven one.
that makes it the "easiest" race up to ~6.3k from that point on, i feel like things are pretty equal up to 6.7k ish, and then, the mechanically driven races take over. that doesn't mean that "LUL protoss weak in pro sc2", it just means that mechanics can carry godlike players more consistantly with terran and especially zerg (on the ladder)
this leads to most pro protoss being stuck at 6.6k, but there being more of them, while the spread of terran and zerg is pretty even at all levels amongst their ppl. many zerg/terran players on a lower pro level or below tend to give up frustrated earlier or simply don't have the required "talent" and speed to progress. a 6.6k protoss with a different race from the get go would either be a frustrated 6.2k terran/zerg or - less likely - a 6.9k terran/zerg, depending on their mechanics. again, that doesn't mean protoss requires no mechanics at all, espeically at pro level, but you can go much further with just "solid" mechanics and smart plays than with other races, while you need godlike mechanics with terran/zerg - while you probably get more consistantly good results with these races even if you get out-stratagized every game (zerg being the even more extreme example).
that's how i see things at least.
I preach this for ten years, thank you for writing it so well.
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On July 27 2021 18:51 KalWarkov wrote: protoss is a more strategic race and less of a mechanically driven one.
that makes it the "easiest" race up to ~6.3k
I just played a Terran who didn't build units, tried to rush out expansions behind Planetary Fortresses and Missile Turrets with building upgrades while going to mass Ravens, thinks that not idling Gateways is a "rush" and is convinced the only reason he lost is Protoss imba. This guy is in Diamond League, and he's not the only Terran I've seen at that level try these kinds of strats. You will never convince me that this guy was playing a "harder" race, even if we were well below 6.3k.
Asymmetric races are going to spike at different levels, and if Protoss isn't imbalanced at higher levels and isn't imbalanced at lower levels, why exactly should the game be changed for this specific, narrow band of player skill?
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On July 26 2021 04:54 CicadaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2021 19:04 Mlord wrote:On July 25 2021 06:22 CicadaSC wrote:On July 25 2021 02:36 Mlord wrote: Yearly reminder that there is still no counterplay to DT blink in lategame, no counterplay in a RTS SEND HELP put a liberator on top of your planetary and if u wanna go crazy, a widowmine or 2. Maru does it all the time. Thanks for your deep understanding of the problem master A lib and a few mines is less supply and cost less than dt hitsquads. Not sure if you want to elaborate on why this is not a good answer?? Dts usually have to blink to get onto a planetary which will mean they are literally blinking into mines and a liberator field. As long as you can repair before the 3rd volley of dt swipes you should be completely fine.
Heromarine showed all the problems of defending blinked dts multiple times on stream. It is just not as simple as putting 2 mines and a lib at the planetary. What if you are on 5 bases? should you do it everywhere. When you premove the blink the dt squad so they spreaded around the planetary, you can even kill the planetary despite being 2 mines and a lib there. The pros are not stupid, its a reason not everyone does it. So i understand why this answer didn't have anough quality.
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Czech Republic12115 Posts
On July 27 2021 23:44 SpecKROELLchen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2021 04:54 CicadaSC wrote:On July 25 2021 19:04 Mlord wrote:On July 25 2021 06:22 CicadaSC wrote:On July 25 2021 02:36 Mlord wrote: Yearly reminder that there is still no counterplay to DT blink in lategame, no counterplay in a RTS SEND HELP put a liberator on top of your planetary and if u wanna go crazy, a widowmine or 2. Maru does it all the time. Thanks for your deep understanding of the problem master A lib and a few mines is less supply and cost less than dt hitsquads. Not sure if you want to elaborate on why this is not a good answer?? Dts usually have to blink to get onto a planetary which will mean they are literally blinking into mines and a liberator field. As long as you can repair before the 3rd volley of dt swipes you should be completely fine. Heromarine showed all the problems of defending blinked dts multiple times on stream. It is just not as simple as putting 2 mines and a lib at the planetary. What if you are on 5 bases? should you do it everywhere. When you premove the blink the dt squad so they spreaded around the planetary, you can even kill the planetary despite being 2 mines and a lib there. The pros are not stupid, its a reason not everyone does it. So i understand why this answer didn't have anough quality. Well, the issue is that Blizz won't touch the game and the top Terrans are not vocal enough about it. Koreans are silent and HM isn't enough. Not that the Koreans being vocal would help in any way considering the inferno on the social networks Blizz is in right now, so this tiny fire would be probably unnoticed anyway.
Bad timing, really bad timing.
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On the Pylon show today, Lambo, ShowTime, and HeroMarine were discussing how GM in EU ladder is overrun by Protoss and everyone is getting so many Protoss games on ladder: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1128913356. Unfortunately, I am not a subscriber to Rotti's channel so I can't view the VOD or mark the exact time they discussed this, but roughly, it should be around the 1 hour 25 minute mark to 1 hour 45 minute mark in the VOD where they discuss this.
Lambo says about 75% of this matches on ladder are against Protoss (that leaves 25% against Terran and Zerg). And ShowTime also acknowledged he is getting swamped with PvsP on ladder. And of course, Big Gabe already gets a large number of Protoss matches on ladder.
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