Hi. This is a strange phenomenon that Demuslim was discussing on his stream today and it's kind of getting out of hand with many streamers, not just Demuslim's stream. Right now, I am watching Lambo's stream and Lambo had 23 straight ZvsP matches in a row. When Demuslim streams these days, he also mainly gets Protoss opponents on ladder. And HeroMarine is the same - he also gets mainly Protoss opponents. It's pretty well known for EU ladder at the high GM level, you expect to get Protoss match after Protoss match after Protoss match.
So I looked at the top 50 GM spots for EU GM at https://www.rankedftw.com/ladder/lotv/1v1/mmr/?f=eu. Top 50 GM on EU is about 6146 MMR. What I saw was this for the top 50 in GM EU, which is equal or above 6146 MMR:
I have been watching SC2 pro gamers stream for over a decade (since SC2 was released in 2010). I don't recall anything like right now, where streamers at the top level get one matchup over and over again on ladder at the top level. What's more interesting is that Demuslim streams virtually opposite hours as HeroMarine but they both get a lot of Protoss opponents, so it's not a time zone issue either.
Is anybody else seeing this when they watch high level GM streams for the EU server?
Edit: I'm on Lambo's stream right now and Elazer is experiencing the same thing, an overwhelming number of Protoss matches.
Well, Protoss is the easiest race at master level.
I think most Zerg players are stuck on diamond/low masters.
How easy a race is changes depending on the skill level.
Zerg is the easiest race in diamond, as you only need good macro and zero micro to be there. After that you need to micro infectors/vipers and make better surrounds, split vs mines etc. putting a wall against players that got used to just learn to make 25 drones at a time and stomp their opponent.
What I find interesting is that you're saying there's less Zerg than Terran in GM, which is weird because Terran is the hardest race from diamond upwards.
There's also the fact that I believe Zerg is the race with less players across all leagues, so that might have something to do with it.
For better and more accurate representation of the top 50 players, you should merge the dual/triple accounts using something like sc2revealed, because a guy with multiple accounts in top 50 will not be able to play against himself.
On July 22 2021 00:07 Poopi wrote: For better and more accurate representation of the top 50 players, you should merge the dual/triple accounts using something like sc2revealed, because a guy with multiple accounts in top 50 will not be able to play against himself.
I agree that a player may be using multiple accounts. But this doesn't change the fact that Demuslim, Lambo, HeroMarine, and now even Elazer are experiencing Protoss match after Protoss match after Protoss match on EU ladder.
On July 22 2021 00:07 Poopi wrote: For better and more accurate representation of the top 50 players, you should merge the dual/triple accounts using something like sc2revealed, because a guy with multiple accounts in top 50 will not be able to play against himself.
I agree that a player may be using multiple accounts. But this doesn't change the fact that Demuslim, Lambo, HeroMarine, and now even Elazer are experiencing Protoss match after Protoss match after Protoss match on EU ladder.
ultimately none of this matters if you simply look at the race report in players' profiles. no need to guess with indirect things like "how many protoss are in the top 50" when you can look at heromarine's profile or demuslim's profile and see that the vast majority of the games are tvp. the data supports the anecdotes
to try to explain what's going on, another thing to look at is if protoss players tend to play more ladder games than players of the other races. the data is still early in this season but maybe in a week or two, someone could tabulate games played for the top 50 mmr. unfortunately i think when players leave league that resets their games played. idk if a single player has ever gotten a single better tournament result because they left their league on ladder in the weeks preceding the match, but in any case there are a lot of serial league leavers messing up the stats
of course i think the overwhelming factor here is the propensity for every little ladder player to copy the pros and it's just the nature of the game right now that when protoss players copy aggressive pro strats, and when zerg and terran players try to copy how pro zerg and terran players deal with those strats, the protoss players benefit. thus there are simply more protoss players saturating this MMR range than there ought to be but i have no idea what can be done about that. i suppose zergs and terrans have to wait it out and hope the winds shift at some point. that's how it was for bw players for many many years...
Protoss is an easy race compared to Terran and Zerg. I'm stuck at around 3700MMR on the NA ladder because I just can't beat late game TvZ and TvP. Once Protoss gets Carriers with Storms and/or Disruptors, I lose like 90% of the time. Once Zerg gets Ultras with Lurkers, I lose like 80% of the time. It's honestly depressing and makes me want to stop playing the game. From an entertainment point of view, no one likes to lose their games. If they can win more playing a certain race, they'll definitely do it.
Also from a strategy point of view, I think Protoss has more diverse strategies at the higher levels. You can also keep up or even out macro a Zerg because larva inject is actually pretty hard to do. Or if you want to play aggressive, you can by going for Gateway all in or something. Again, it's a very nice to play but at the absolute top, probably the weakest of all 3. We've all seen what Terrans can do when under the control of Clem or Maru with no ping.
On July 22 2021 01:03 geokilla wrote: Protoss is an easy race compared to Terran and Zerg. I'm stuck at around 3700MMR on the NA ladder because I just can't beat late game TvZ and TvP. Once Protoss gets Carriers with Storms and/or Disruptors, I lose like 90% of the time. Once Zerg gets Ultras with Lurkers, I lose like 80% of the time. It's honestly depressing and makes me want to stop playing the game.
yeah coming from BW it amazes how much more powerful late game units are in SC2 compared to mid-tier tech. Hydra vs Carrier is like David vs Goliath.
Ladder is one thing but in the end that doesn't completely translate in tournaments at Premier level. Eight Protoss players in the top 16 in DH Masters Summer EU and only two in the top 8. Maybe that will change for the Fall season but I'm betting on the same pattern.
on the pylon show today serral and reynor said they like to play customs. this obviously really skews the top 50 ladder if both of those are missing.
the obsession with protoss being easy and OP both parts of bw and sc2 community have is kind of crazy imo. I feel like its just a really entrenched narrative thats so integrated in the way people think about the game, no matter how the balance is, there is are always gonna be people mad about protoss.
On July 22 2021 01:37 Andi_Goldberger wrote: on the pylon show today serral and reynor said they like to play customs. this obviously really skews the top 50 ladder if both of those are missing.
the obsession with protoss being easy and OP both parts of bw and sc2 community have is kind of crazy imo. I feel like its just a really entrenched narrative thats so integrated in the way people think about the game, no matter how the balance is, there is are always gonna be people mad about protoss.
Well majority of us are casual players right? I'm not expecting the game to be balanced for lesser players like me but no one likes to lose. To lose over 80% of my games after they hit a certain time just sucks.
On July 22 2021 01:14 WGT-Baal wrote: Might also be somewhat related to map vetoes (if demuslim/heromarine use any) of each race
that doesnt influece Matchmaking, a big factor(MAYBE, IDK) is that Protoss got new strategies with Voidrays becoming viable, while Mech and other alternative strategies are not there for the other races atm.
On July 22 2021 01:14 WGT-Baal wrote: Might also be somewhat related to map vetoes (if demuslim/heromarine use any) of each race
that doesnt influece Matchmaking, a big factor(MAYBE, IDK) is that Protoss got new strategies with Voidrays becoming viable, while Mech and other alternative strategies are not there for the other races atm.
Can we just get our head out of the sand and stop trying to find dumb reasons and excuses and finally admit that the game is in a pitiful state. This patch is NOT good at all for this game.
Protoss was already easiest race to play, best at lower level but struggled once you got to highest level.
The solution from our godly balance team? Buff the easiest to use protoss things in the game, ultimate gold league strat: Void rays, batteries and canon spam.
All they did is make the problem even worse....
I wish we could revert the 3 years of stupid patches, and have some actual good patches from ppl that can play 1v1 at high level, and not dumb coop mode changes applied to the real game such as Battlelcruiser teleport, battery overcharge, speedy void rays and micro shroud.
On July 22 2021 06:37 Snakestyle11 wrote: Can we just get our head out of the sand and stop trying to find dumb reasons and excuses and finally admit that the game is in a pitiful state. This patch is NOT good at all for this game.
Protoss was already easiest race to play, best at lower level but struggled once you got to highest level.
The solution from our godly balance team? Buff the easiest to use protoss things in the game, ultimate gold league strat: Void rays, batteries and canon spam.
All they did is make the problem even worse....
I strongly agree with this, but apparently stating the obvious is being toxic. And yeah it isn't a balance issue per se because the highest level Z/T can deal with P (in fact so well that P hasn't won a "real" premier tournament in years) but it's definitely a problem. I don't have miracle solutions but things like removing charge autocast (T players have to do such interactions with bio all the time to get full effectiveness out of their bio, so this could up the skill needed to maneuver gateway armies a bit) or balance void ray shield / health ratio could be studied. Once again I hope ESL can seize the power to patch the game because while not being downright horrible, this is indeed not a great patch.
On July 22 2021 06:37 Snakestyle11 wrote: Can we just get our head out of the sand and stop trying to find dumb reasons and excuses and finally admit that the game is in a pitiful state. This patch is NOT good at all for this game.
Protoss was already easiest race to play, best at lower level but struggled once you got to highest level.
The solution from our godly balance team? Buff the easiest to use protoss things in the game, ultimate gold league strat: Void rays, batteries and canon spam.
All they did is make the problem even worse....
I strongly agree with this, but apparently stating the obvious is being toxic. And yeah it isn't a balance issue per se because the highest level Z/T can deal with P (in fact so well that P hasn't won a "real" premier tournament in years) but it's definitely a problem. I don't have miracle solutions but things like removing charge autocast (T players have to do such interactions with bio all the time to get full effectiveness out of their bio, so this could up the skill needed to maneuver gateway armies a bit) or balance void ray shield / health ratio could be studied. Once again I hope ESL can seize the power to patch the game because while not being downright horrible, this is indeed not a great patch.
But then Protoss players will say if you needed to press a button to activate charge, it'll make their race harder to play, meaning at the highest level, it'll make it more difficult for Protoss players to win a premier tournament.
I think SC2 is going to stay like this for the rest of its life and then slowly die off after the ESL contract is up. First, coding in a new patch isn't easy. Second, ESL is a business and they want to make money. But if CS:GO isn't making ESL any money, there's no way SC2 is making them money. Third, I find SC2 lacks tournaments or competition in general for players who are not at the very top. League of Legends and CS:GO has a system where upcoming Tier 2 and 3 players or teams can play and compete to try and eventually break into Tier 1. Playing in these tournaments gets them exposure and for tier 1 teams to pick them up if they identify them as a prospect. Of course, there's prize money too. But I rarely see the same available for SC2. Having open qualifiers like the ones that are currently running is nice, but I'd like to see more for tournaments for these tier 2 players. Like the LCS, it may not be the highest level of gameplay compared to LPL, but it can still be very entertaining and give these prospects a chance of making it to the very top.
On July 22 2021 06:37 Snakestyle11 wrote: Can we just get our head out of the sand and stop trying to find dumb reasons and excuses and finally admit that the game is in a pitiful state. This patch is NOT good at all for this game.
Protoss was already easiest race to play, best at lower level but struggled once you got to highest level.
The solution from our godly balance team? Buff the easiest to use protoss things in the game, ultimate gold league strat: Void rays, batteries and canon spam.
All they did is make the problem even worse....
I strongly agree with this, but apparently stating the obvious is being toxic. And yeah it isn't a balance issue per se because the highest level Z/T can deal with P (in fact so well that P hasn't won a "real" premier tournament in years) but it's definitely a problem. I don't have miracle solutions but things like removing charge autocast (T players have to do such interactions with bio all the time to get full effectiveness out of their bio, so this could up the skill needed to maneuver gateway armies a bit) or balance void ray shield / health ratio could be studied. Once again I hope ESL can seize the power to patch the game because while not being downright horrible, this is indeed not a great patch.
Is there a reason to believe that zealot charge in particular is problematic? That seems to me like a very strange choice of nerf. Super batteries or void rays seem like clearer problems to me.
Played Protoss for years, was mid to high Masters. Stopped playing for some time.
Switched to Terran, am stuck in High Diamond after 300+ games. Very confident I could be a Masters Protoss again. Protoss is really strong right now, the Void Ray buff was dumb (must have totally destroyed Team Games where Voids were already very strong), I think Shield Batteries are too cheap too, Protoss can get away with too much in the early game at least versus Terran.
[/QUOTE] unfortunately i think when players leave league that resets their games played. idk if a single player has ever gotten a single better tournament result because they left their league on ladder in the weeks preceding the match, but in any case there are a lot of serial league leavers messing up the stats
.[/QUOTE]
I do not believe that is the case because ruff constantly leaves league and im pretty sure they still show up on his profile. I think the nature of protoss and terran builds and scouting right now really leads to protoss having an advantage on ladder inflating their mmr. I'm an M1 terran and even at my level it feels like the protoss 100% of the time knows what build im doing at all times but I still have to win vs them. And on my end I can know protoss is doing a voidray tempest build and still really struggle to hold. Or they could be doing a number of different strong build orders that need different responses to each and you have to figure it out within a second because some of them will come within 15-30 seconds of scouting like the chargelot all in. It is just not fun to play right now.
unfortunately i think when players leave league that resets their games played. idk if a single player has ever gotten a single better tournament result because they left their league on ladder in the weeks preceding the match, but in any case there are a lot of serial league leavers messing up the stats
.[/QUOTE]
I do not believe that is the case because ruff constantly leaves league and im pretty sure they still show up on his profile. I think the nature of protoss and terran builds and scouting right now really leads to protoss having an advantage on ladder inflating their mmr. I'm an M1 terran and even at my level it feels like the protoss 100% of the time knows what build im doing at all times but I still have to win vs them. And on my end I can know protoss is doing a voidray tempest build and still really struggle to hold. Or they could be doing a number of different strong build orders that need different responses to each and you have to figure it out within a second because some of them will come within 15-30 seconds of scouting like the chargelot all in. It is just not fun to play right now. [/QUOTE]
Demuslim think Protoss are having more fun in EU, that’s why there are more Protoss players. Having more openings definitely can make it more fun to play Protoss.
On July 23 2021 06:34 MockHamill wrote: The easiest solution that would be to increase shield battery cost to 150 minerals. It would weaken proxy void rays - which currently is too strong.
It would also be a very slight nerf to greedy Protoss builds that only get a few early units due to dirt cheap batteries.
That is actually a great idea. most of the time ideas in these threads are awful.
On July 23 2021 07:29 Obamarauder wrote: you're literally half a year late, vP is the most common matchup for a while. stop making a thread about it like its some kinda news
Well, just read through the comments in this thread. It's obviously news to a lot of people here if you read the comments, especially on the first page.
And no, this was not a major problem even 6 months ago. I have been watching HeroMarine's stream for some time and it was not a major problem 6 months ago. It was not a major problem with Demuslim last year either when I watched his stream.
I has been a problem for a while but it has gotten much worse the past couple seasons. It has even started to effect lower mmr people like m1-m3 level.
Void rays would be manageable if they didn’t fire while chasing or moving. I don’t think SC2 “is in a garbage state” or carry the same doom and gloom from others here, but Void Rays in particular are such a bore and easily the most frustrating thing to play against as a random player. I wouldn’t mind removing them completely from the game and buffing oracles / tempests.
Just stop trying to bring balance into it, the only success protoss has had at pro level over the years is because of some new innovative way to play protoss , then it gets figured out and protoss starts performing poorly until they manage to create some new suprise build. (starting to run out of ways to innovate at this point). Everyone was crying OP at void ray buff , got still to see protoss win a premier tournament.
Master terran here. When playing off race, Zerg is very hard and protoss easy.
I played a few hundred games of random but Zerg would lose to my Terran 100% while my protoss would go 50/50.
Protoss have all the beginner friendly features in the game and feels very forgiving. Protoss feels like the best race and very fun units to use too. Zergs units are really boring. When doing 3v3 the only fun thing is banelings or infestors.
Heromarine went through data on stream too. Seemed very convincing on how zergs sorta quit and also never replenished
On July 22 2021 01:37 Andi_Goldberger wrote: on the pylon show today serral and reynor said they like to play customs. this obviously really skews the top 50 ladder if both of those are missing.
the obsession with protoss being easy and OP both parts of bw and sc2 community have is kind of crazy imo. I feel like its just a really entrenched narrative thats so integrated in the way people think about the game, no matter how the balance is, there is are always gonna be people mad about protoss.
Protoss is the best BO1 race though. It's the reason why Protoss is so much hated in the SC2. Many cheeses, warp in, warp prism etc. And if you're mechanically good enough and you don't mind rotating 3 or 4 cheeses/all ins you will have a good time on the ladder. Of course you won't be a good tournament player but these people are not tournament players so they don't care.
On July 23 2021 10:35 Husyelt wrote: Void rays would be manageable if they didn’t fire while chasing or moving. I don’t think SC2 “is in a garbage state” or carry the same doom and gloom from others here, but Void Rays in particular are such a bore and easily the most frustrating thing to play against as a random player. I wouldn’t mind removing them completely from the game and buffing oracles / tempests.
Sure. Queens, shield batteries, zerg winning every world championship since the Blizzcon 2017. Peachy state. Why are people dissatisfied, I wonder?
On July 23 2021 18:08 Drahkn wrote: Just stop trying to bring balance into it, the only success protoss has had at pro level over the years is because of some new innovative way to play protoss , then it gets figured out and protoss starts performing poorly until they manage to create some new suprise build. (starting to run out of ways to innovate at this point). Everyone was crying OP at void ray buff , got still to see protoss win a premier tournament.
Premiere tournaments of 2021 which were won by Protoss: DH SC2 Masters 2020: Last Chance 2021 - Trap 2021 AfreecaTV GSL Super Tournament 1 - Trap 2021 AfreecaTV GSL Super Tournament 2 - Trap DH SC2 Masters 2021 Summer: North America - Neeb NeXT 2021 S1–SC2 Masters - Trap TeamLiquid StarLeague 7 - Trap
On July 23 2021 19:09 deacon.frost wrote: Premiere tournaments of 2021 which were won by Protoss: DH SC2 Masters 2020: Last Chance 2021 - Trap 2021 AfreecaTV GSL Super Tournament 1 - Trap 2021 AfreecaTV GSL Super Tournament 2 - Trap DH SC2 Masters 2021 Summer: North America - Neeb NeXT 2021 S1–SC2 Masters - Trap TeamLiquid StarLeague 7 - Trap
heh, out of 10 premier tournaments i n2021 Protoss won 6 Mwahahahahaha
Trap also won the 2020 AfreecaTV GSL Super Tournament 2 at the very end of 2020, which was a Premier tournament.
Thanks for posting these results. Protoss has won many premier tournaments over the last 10 months. I don't know why people keep claiming they didn't, but the actual premier tournament results speak for themselves.
On July 23 2021 19:09 deacon.frost wrote: Premiere tournaments of 2021 which were won by Protoss: DH SC2 Masters 2020: Last Chance 2021 - Trap 2021 AfreecaTV GSL Super Tournament 1 - Trap 2021 AfreecaTV GSL Super Tournament 2 - Trap DH SC2 Masters 2021 Summer: North America - Neeb NeXT 2021 S1–SC2 Masters - Trap TeamLiquid StarLeague 7 - Trap
heh, out of 10 premier tournaments i n2021 Protoss won 6 Mwahahahahaha
Trap also won the 2020 AfreecaTV GSL Super Tournament 2 at the very end of 2020, which was a Premier tournament.
Thanks for posting these results. Protoss has won many premier tournaments over the last 10 months. I don't know why people keep claiming they didn't, but the actual premier tournament results speak for themselves.
To be fair, apart from Neeb winning one NA-only event, it's only Trap.
On July 23 2021 19:09 deacon.frost wrote: Premiere tournaments of 2021 which were won by Protoss: DH SC2 Masters 2020: Last Chance 2021 - Trap 2021 AfreecaTV GSL Super Tournament 1 - Trap 2021 AfreecaTV GSL Super Tournament 2 - Trap DH SC2 Masters 2021 Summer: North America - Neeb NeXT 2021 S1–SC2 Masters - Trap TeamLiquid StarLeague 7 - Trap
heh, out of 10 premier tournaments i n2021 Protoss won 6 Mwahahahahaha
Trap also won the 2020 AfreecaTV GSL Super Tournament 2 at the very end of 2020, which was a Premier tournament.
Thanks for posting these results. Protoss has won many premier tournaments over the last 10 months. I don't know why people keep claiming they didn't, but the actual premier tournament results speak for themselves.
To be fair, apart from Neeb winning one NA-only event, it's only Trap.
And Trap isn't Protoss? Like sure, we can debate about the fact that the last 8(?) world champions are zergs. But you cannot just say - nahnahnah Protoss can't win - nahnahnah. Because there's no other top Protoss player except Trap. Who else? Stats? In the army now. herO just returned, but even before his departure he wasn't exactly the top level. Parting, sOs? Nope. One day Zoun. Maybe Zest if he gets his former form - he's IMO closer to it than sOs.
The fact that Protoss is lacking good players is well known and documented. This isn't exactly a balance issue as more of a - low talent pool issue.
And to be fair - Trap isn't showing something which cannot be reproduced. He's no Maru or Byun. Or Dark. So yea, only Trap wins, because the rest is not as good.
Edit> Just in the last 2 years we lost herO, Stats, Classic
Also 2 Trap's finals were against Zoun
Edit 2> And the 2020 Trap's title was against Stats. Out of his 7 2020/2021 titles 3 were won in PvP. So the narrative it's just Trap and that Protoss can't win a premier tournament is kinda iffy.
I think its funny how everyone immediately ties this to balance. I think this argumentation can work both ways. So there are countless protoss players in GM and yet none of them gets even close to decent results in EU tournaments. Only 2 made the top 8 and the very best result Protoss had in all 4 seasons of the new DH format was 1 Protoss in the top 6, in the latest season the last protoss dropped out in the ro8. So how is it possible that so many Protoss players are around the 6k level but none of them can take on the top zergs/terrans? That just makes no sense with so many players being there and the race allegedly being way too strong.
On July 23 2021 21:05 Seracis wrote: I think its funny how everyone immediately ties this to balance. I think this argumentation can work both ways. So there are countless protoss players in GM and yet none of them gets even close to decent results in EU tournaments. Only 2 made the top 8 and the very best result Protoss had in all 4 seasons of the new DH format was 1 Protoss in the top 6, in the latest season the last protoss dropped out in the ro8. So how is it possible that so many Protoss players are around the 6k level but none of them can take on the top zergs/terrans? That just makes no sense with so many players being there and the race allegedly being way too strong.
On a global scale, protoss won around 375k$+ this year, compared to 304k$+ from zerg and 324k$+ from terran (from a few days ago, probably needs an update with recent gsl results etc). I am not sure the top 8 race representation from EU DH is that good of an indicator
On July 23 2021 21:05 Seracis wrote: I think its funny how everyone immediately ties this to balance. I think this argumentation can work both ways. So there are countless protoss players in GM and yet none of them gets even close to decent results in EU tournaments. Only 2 made the top 8 and the very best result Protoss had in all 4 seasons of the new DH format was 1 Protoss in the top 6, in the latest season the last protoss dropped out in the ro8. So how is it possible that so many Protoss players are around the 6k level but none of them can take on the top zergs/terrans? That just makes no sense with so many players being there and the race allegedly being way too strong.
ehm
So there are countless protoss players in GM and yet none of them gets even close to decent results in EU tournaments.
Countless? There are 200 players in the EU GM, I bet you can count to 200. None of them gets even close to a decent result. Let's analyze this. How many of those countless GM Protoss EU players atended the DH EU?
And considering this game was never balanced towards the ladder we can talk about the balance on the ladder. Ladder is inherently 1v1 - I meant BO1 obviously. And the game really isn't balanced around that otherwise we would see more pressure on the amount of opening and variability of cheeses across the races.
On July 23 2021 21:05 Seracis wrote: I think its funny how everyone immediately ties this to balance. I think this argumentation can work both ways. So there are countless protoss players in GM and yet none of them gets even close to decent results in EU tournaments. Only 2 made the top 8 and the very best result Protoss had in all 4 seasons of the new DH format was 1 Protoss in the top 6, in the latest season the last protoss dropped out in the ro8. So how is it possible that so many Protoss players are around the 6k level but none of them can take on the top zergs/terrans? That just makes no sense with so many players being there and the race allegedly being way too strong.
The reason there is so many in GM is because they have easy styles to play that are incredibly hard to deal with. They might not be styles that win tournaments but they ruin the game for everyone else, and reduce peoples motivation to play ladder. It is obvious to everyone that plays the game what the problem is. At some point you can't be bothered to play against skytoss and shield batteries anymore and stop logging on
Also, let's keep in mind this problem only affects the highest level of players. For the vast majority of us slogging it out in diamond/masters, this problem doesn't really exist.
On July 23 2021 22:33 rogzardo_ wrote: Also, let's keep in mind this problem only affects the highest level of players. For the vast majority of us slogging it out in diamond/masters, this problem doesn't really exist.
Disagree all these protoss players now infesting gm and masters have to come from somewhere and its because they are destroying the lower leaguers on their way up. Protoss operators cycling through 3 or for 4 relatively easy to execute all ins is absolutely destroying the ladder experience for more than just the highest level of play.
Battery : Can only be build in a range of a nexus.
This would end instantly the proxy void/battery. Battery purpose is to defend, here there is an abusive way to use it. This is ridiculous how this is simple to execute and hard to hold (TvP) And maybe also increase the cost of a battery (150?), because it allows protoss to take a 3rd at around 3'30 with 1 unit defending and a battery. This should not happen.
On July 24 2021 00:31 nesmah wrote: A good balance patch would be :
Battery : Can only be build in a range of a nexus.
This would end instantly the proxy void/battery. Battery purpose is to defend, here there is an abusive way to use it. This is ridiculous how this is simple to execute and hard to hold (TvP) And maybe also increase the cost of a battery (150?), because it allows protoss to take a 3rd at around 3'30 with 1 unit defending and a battery. This should not happen.
Also would destabilize PvP as now you cannot defend the ramp with a shield battery on 1 base. Yay!
On July 23 2021 22:33 rogzardo_ wrote: Also, let's keep in mind this problem only affects the highest level of players. For the vast majority of us slogging it out in diamond/masters, this problem doesn't really exist.
Disagree all these protoss players now infesting gm and masters have to come from somewhere and its because they are destroying the lower leaguers on their way up. Protoss operators cycling through 3 or for 4 relatively easy to execute all ins is absolutely destroying the ladder experience for more than just the highest level of play.
Yeah, this is what is happening for some players. HeroMarine is really tired of all the TvsP matches.
It would be nice if Blizzard added a setting in 1vs1 ladder where players can prioritize the race they want to play against. It doesn't necessarily mean you will get the race you want to play against in the next ladder match, but your odds increase of playing that race. Such a feature would also mean that Protoss players in high EU GM have to wait longer though if nobody wants to play against them. But at least this would add some variety to the matches that people are playing. I can imagine if you get one matchup straight for 23 straight games, like Lambo got 23 PvsZ matches in a row, it gets very boring after a while.
unfortunately the game in its current patch till abt 6k mmr is sth like: Protoss mmr= Terran/Zerg mmr +(500-800) for the same skill.
all of my friends who play all races have the same: protoss mmr at least by 500mmr higher. in fact even if they played terran or zerg and switched they within months more w toss (3-5k mmr range)
i am positive if u are any league in EU u would be 2 leagues higher w toss minimum.. by reversal, weakest toss GMs are skillwise not stronger than M2 terran/zerg. that explains why there are so many toss in GM.. simple as this.
compare anyone who played at least 3k games per every race.
above 6k for sure the differences are smaller, but from streams it seems like insane pain too, fe: as a zerg to beat endgame toss u need almost always at minimum 3 different army hotkeys, often 4, while toss is Amove+ storm, i watch GM streamers toss, who have NO army hotkey!! they can just amove all time and watch they HTs to storm (and its not like they lose them coz they have autoattack, so at very least they dont go to suicide instantly like vipers or corruptors do if u miss/panicclick as zerg
i rly dont understand WHY protosses have autocast charge or why HTs have any attack at all - (way harder to control if they dont) cherry on top is ofc ridic speed of voids.. even if u win a huge fight, voids can instafly away. why other races dont have such strong quick high dps units?
also shiled battery autotarget- why? protoss has way more time to react to any sudden agression than zerg or terran has.. at least make them watch the minimap, what s so bad abt it?
hard to admit, but if i was a pro plr i for sure would switch to P in this patch. we already see that NA pro scene is basically only protoss, i predict most of minor tourneys worldwide to become as well
I really like the idea about race balancing match ups on the ladder. Why not take it a step further: instead of maintaining a single MMR for your overall play, just have 3 MMRs for all the specific match-ups. This way, it can be optimized so that assuming skill stays constant, you should get a 50% win rate in all 3 of your match-ups which can alleviate some frustration.
Furthermore, you can rebalance randomized matching so that you have a roughly equal chance of drawing up each match-up. While this could potentially increase wait times, it would actually only really increase wait times for the most popular race (which I take is protoss), thereby slightly incentivizing people to play other races.
To use random: I suppose we could just treat random as a "4th" race.
I don’t think the asymmetric balance has been done particularly well, and it’s got worse over time.
Protoss cannot mechanically match Terran microability or the Zerg macro machine and rather than retooling the races a little to equalise a bit, it’s more and more bandaids being applied, especially to Protoss.
So now we’re left with a race than can rotate all of the most frustrating allins and turtle styles available, up to a pretty high level on ladder which is a bunch of Bo1s against random people.
I’m far from the only Protoss player who would like the race to require more mechanical chops and scale accordingly, but the devs have never really retooled it in that particular direction.
It is not balance it is design. The way Protoss is designed makes it forgiving. Thus in the lower leagues Protoss is by far the easiest race to play. However at the top the T and Z players do not make mistakes and when that happens T and Z are better races than P but you don't get to that point until you reach the elite level prop players. Since this is the case Blizzard continued these weird bandaid patches to try and make Protoss competitive at the top level and now we have a broken patch with a bunch of super abusive builds for P to use that is decimating all but the very top players.
So imo what this comes down to is the fact that this can't be patched away. The design of P is poor and if it isn't addressed the game will continue to be this way until it is replaced by another RTS.
It is not balance it is design. The way Protoss is designed makes it forgiving. Thus in the lower leagues Protoss is by far the easiest race to play. However at the top the T and Z players do not make mistakes and when that happens T and Z are better races than P but you don't get to that point until you reach the elite level prop players. Since this is the case Blizzard continued these weird bandaid patches to try and make Protoss competitive at the top level and now we have a broken patch with a bunch of super abusive builds for P to use that is decimating all but the very top players.
So imo what this comes down to is the fact that this can't be patched away. The design of P is poor and if it isn't addressed the game will continue to be this way until it is replaced by another RTS.
THe core design of both Zerg and Protoss are poor compared to the Terran. And Terran isn't exactly the best either but compared to the PZ ... So yeah, nothing will be changed or balanced. Mostly because Blizzard needs to balance their own company rather than SC2 which is in the notouch policy.
it actually IS important what, we, the plebs, have to say/how we feel abt the game.
we already see many decent players/streamers switching to protoss and unrivalled number of upcomers from this race, while terrans and zergs just cry their hearts out.
if unchecked, this trend will continue and speed up, leaving just masochists and topnotch top 3-5pros from terrans/zerg in their respective races.
at the end of the day, we play the game coz we (used to) love it, but if the end experience is that u have to face protosses one after another with their relatively random, yet so easy to execute and powerful builds, i am not sure..
it s already happening, even at very top, DH qualifiers are over 60% tototal of protosses.. and how long is this patch? give it another half a year or so and i predict 80%+ with virtually all new players coming to the game just choosing protoss.
why? because nobody likes to lose, and even more so, if it is by trying (much) harder than the opponent and see him/her laughing hard while he literally uses 1/3 of the effort.. and thanks to this thread also, it is becoming more and more common knowledge, that the race is just broken.
hence i suggest its about time: we all switch to protoss , or just quit the game coz it is just far too much not fair hence no fun
On July 24 2021 04:41 TLN00 wrote: it s already happening, even at very top, DH qualifiers are over 60% tototal of protosses.. and how long is this patch? give it another half a year or so and i predict 80%+ with virtually all new players coming to the game just choosing protoss.
Over 60% of DH qualifiers are Protoss? Is this just for EU qualifiers? Or other regions as well?
It is not balance it is design. The way Protoss is designed makes it forgiving. Thus in the lower leagues Protoss is by far the easiest race to play. However at the top the T and Z players do not make mistakes and when that happens T and Z are better races than P but you don't get to that point until you reach the elite level prop players. Since this is the case Blizzard continued these weird bandaid patches to try and make Protoss competitive at the top level and now we have a broken patch with a bunch of super abusive builds for P to use that is decimating all but the very top players.
So imo what this comes down to is the fact that this can't be patched away. The design of P is poor and if it isn't addressed the game will continue to be this way until it is replaced by another RTS.
THe core design of both Zerg and Protoss are poor compared to the Terran. And Terran isn't exactly the best either but compared to the PZ ... So yeah, nothing will be changed or balanced. Mostly because Blizzard needs to balance their own company rather than SC2 which is in the notouch policy.
Terran is a big, big part of the problem given how they’re designed, bio pumps out tons of damage, is extremely microable and thus tools have to be given to the other races to get around this.
Having a race be the glass cannon/high ranged DPs can absolutely work, Nelves fulfil this nicely in WC3 but there’s way more melee micro and other factors at play in that game, units are less plentiful and more tanky too.
It’s a reason say, charge guarantees a hit because without it good Ts will kite for days
Since protoss has a lot of aggressive options it's easier for them to do well on the ladder. In tournaments at the highest level of play, not so much. Player like Dark, Serral, Reynor, Clem, Maru will just shut you down and if anything make protoss look weak.
On July 24 2021 05:20 CicadaSC wrote: Since protoss has a lot of aggressive options it's easier for them to do well on the ladder. In tournaments at the highest level of play, not so much. Player like Dark, Serral, Reynor, Clem, Maru will just shut you down and if anything make protoss look weak.
Thats just because protoss being easy doesnt matter once you are at the top level. Once again, the problem isnt balance, PvZ is actually pretty balanced. Its just much harder to play for zerg than protoss.
You are expected to use mass queens, vipers, infestors, and move a spore forest with your army. 3 spell casters, like 6 different spell, whilel focus firing every single you wanna kill because carriers.
Zergs best unit, the queen, is super slow off creep, and doesnt even work with f2.
Meanwhile, protoss is just a-move+storm no matter the comp really. They even gave carriers interceptor autobuild, templars auto attack so you can amove them, and warpgate auto morph. They just made protoss sooo easy. Batteries also use themselves automatically. Protoss almost plays itself when you compare to the other races.
You used to be able to stop recall by killing or abducting the mothership core, now theres no counter, protoss just gets a free get out of jail card.
Theres so many reasons and its so obvious why protoss is MUCH easier than zerg and terran now.
The last thing you needed to do was to buff void rays and battery/canon spam. This made protoss EVEN easier than it was, and now its a total joke.
The last patch was the biggest mistake ever in 10 years of starcraft2, and its the patch we are left with... If this game is bleeding out players, its definitely the fault of protoss.(not the players, just the ppl who patched this game).
On July 24 2021 01:46 TLN00 wrote: unfortunately the game in its current patch till abt 6k mmr is sth like: Protoss mmr= Terran/Zerg mmr +(500-800) for the same skill.
feels bad that my terran and protoss mmr are the same, looks like I am an absolute trash protoss
On July 24 2021 05:20 CicadaSC wrote: Since protoss has a lot of aggressive options it's easier for them to do well on the ladder. In tournaments at the highest level of play, not so much. Player like Dark, Serral, Reynor, Clem, Maru will just shut you down and if anything make protoss look weak.
for the zergs, yeah buts its always realy close long games because of skytoss turtle.
for the terrans, yeah but they still lose alot of games to proxy voids and tempests, sometime even series to just one cheese.
On July 24 2021 01:46 TLN00 wrote: unfortunately the game in its current patch till abt 6k mmr is sth like: Protoss mmr= Terran/Zerg mmr +(500-800) for the same skill.
feels bad that my terran and protoss mmr are the same, looks like I am an absolute trash protoss
I mean I’d assume from my experiences and just general deduction that Protoss just won’t suit everyone and a blanket rule like ‘Protoss MMR is +500 from other races’ is just silly.
If you don’t like doing all sorts of wonky all-ins, or your strengths are playing defensively or in mechanics you kind of miss out on a lot that makes Protoss so potent/aggravating to face.
In ye olde WoL era where I could 1 rax gasless FE pretty safely in all matchups it took me a week or two to get my Terran off race to be as good, if not better than my Toss.
Think it’d be harder now as openers are more technical, but I was naturally better with T and while I haven’t played them I’m pretty convinced Zerg would absolutely be my best race given how I try to play the game.
I don’t really like how Toss play tbh, but they’re the cool psionic aliens with baller technology and I played them in BW, so Toss it was!
Hopefully I have better luck in race picking this upcoming Frost Giant title! Between Protoss and Nelves in WC3 I pick the race I find cool and it ends up being the most hated race haha
It is not balance it is design. The way Protoss is designed makes it forgiving. Thus in the lower leagues Protoss is by far the easiest race to play. However at the top the T and Z players do not make mistakes and when that happens T and Z are better races than P but you don't get to that point until you reach the elite level prop players. Since this is the case Blizzard continued these weird bandaid patches to try and make Protoss competitive at the top level and now we have a broken patch with a bunch of super abusive builds for P to use that is decimating all but the very top players.
So imo what this comes down to is the fact that this can't be patched away. The design of P is poor and if it isn't addressed the game will continue to be this way until it is replaced by another RTS.
THe core design of both Zerg and Protoss are poor compared to the Terran. And Terran isn't exactly the best either but compared to the PZ ... So yeah, nothing will be changed or balanced. Mostly because Blizzard needs to balance their own company rather than SC2 which is in the notouch policy.
Terran is a big, big part of the problem given how they’re designed, bio pumps out tons of damage, is extremely microable and thus tools have to be given to the other races to get around this.
Having a race be the glass cannon/high ranged DPs can absolutely work, Nelves fulfil this nicely in WC3 but there’s way more melee micro and other factors at play in that game, units are less plentiful and more tanky too.
It’s a reason say, charge guarantees a hit because without it good Ts will kite for days
That's why I said that Terran isn't exacly the best design overall, but in this game it's the best designed race. And by far. My favorite example is Mutalisk. BEcause of mutalisk there were patches on Terrans(e.g. Thor, mines), Zerg(spore), Protoss(multiple patching of phoenix). They could have changed the mutalisk But nooooooooo, let's focus on bending everything else around Mutalisk. And that's just one example. And if you look at the history of the game it's even more insane - back at wol you were able to defend mutalisks with blink stalkers and storm while you were transitioning into phonix. This ended with their regen in HotS. After all the patching and bending in WoL they decided to do THAT.
Well, anyway, Blizzard won't touch the game and certainly not the design part, so we can talk all we want now
it actually IS important what, we, the plebs, have to say/how we feel abt the game.
we already see many decent players/streamers switching to protoss and unrivalled number of upcomers from this race, while terrans and zergs just cry their hearts out.
if unchecked, this trend will continue and speed up, leaving just masochists and topnotch top 3-5pros from terrans/zerg in their respective races.
at the end of the day, we play the game coz we (used to) love it, but if the end experience is that u have to face protosses one after another with their relatively random, yet so easy to execute and powerful builds, i am not sure..
it s already happening, even at very top, DH qualifiers are over 60% tototal of protosses.. and how long is this patch? give it another half a year or so and i predict 80%+ with virtually all new players coming to the game just choosing protoss.
why? because nobody likes to lose, and even more so, if it is by trying (much) harder than the opponent and see him/her laughing hard while he literally uses 1/3 of the effort.. and thanks to this thread also, it is becoming more and more common knowledge, that the race is just broken.
hence i suggest its about time: we all switch to protoss , or just quit the game coz it is just far too much not fair hence no fun :
(
You new to this game? Because Blizzard decided that SC2 is no longer an updated game, so we can talk all we want. They won't patch anything. Even getting maps on the ladder takes ages. And certainly not now, when Blizzard is facing big lawsuit
On July 24 2021 05:20 CicadaSC wrote: Since protoss has a lot of aggressive options it's easier for them to do well on the ladder. In tournaments at the highest level of play, not so much. Player like Dark, Serral, Reynor, Clem, Maru will just shut you down and if anything make protoss look weak.
Thats just because protoss being easy doesnt matter once you are at the top level. Once again, the problem isnt balance, PvZ is actually pretty balanced. Its just much harder to play for zerg than protoss.
You are expected to use mass queens, vipers, infestors, and move a spore forest with your army. 3 spell casters, like 6 different spell, whilel focus firing every single you wanna kill because carriers.
Zergs best unit, the queen, is super slow off creep, and doesnt even work with f2.
Meanwhile, protoss is just a-move+storm no matter the comp really. They even gave carriers interceptor autobuild, templars auto attack so you can amove them, and warpgate auto morph. They just made protoss sooo easy. Batteries also use themselves automatically. Protoss almost plays itself when you compare to the other races.
You used to be able to stop recall by killing or abducting the mothership core, now theres no counter, protoss just gets a free get out of jail card.
Theres so many reasons and its so obvious why protoss is MUCH easier than zerg and terran now.
The last thing you needed to do was to buff void rays and battery/canon spam. This made protoss EVEN easier than it was, and now its a total joke.
The last patch was the biggest mistake ever in 10 years of starcraft2, and its the patch we are left with... If this game is bleeding out players, its definitely the fault of protoss.(not the players, just the ppl who patched this game).
At a decent level a proper Skytoss composition is as difficult to control as Zerg equivalents, I think you’re over blowing it a bit there.
Got to keep hitting oracle tags, target fire with tempest, zone spellcasters out with your Templar, hit disruptor shots if you’re mixing those in etc etc.
I generally hate airball lategame, just think it sucks but but it’s pretty technical to control from both ends.
Some other stuff, yeah. Just a small part of macro, but I like macroing, I never understood why they made warpgates auto-morph. It’s a small change yeah but I don’t think it was a good change considering Protoss macro was already less taxing in ways.
Batteries being manually cast? I’m not sure on this one. In theory I like it, I’m not sure how it looks in practice though. You might end up having to just spam the ‘heal shields’ hotkey so much you’re left with little option to actually micro.
Queens transfuse works reasonably well because you’re mostly able to A-move with your army, and also you’re generally only healing high priority, high HP units. You’re not transfusing lings generally.
With Protoss you kind of need your shields recharged en masse, and you need the free actions to control your army.
I think a reasonable halfway house would be having to activate a ‘recharge shields’ button on each battery though, with a reasonably short active time, say 5-10 seconds. That way your one or two defensive batteries to hold certain timings are still easy enough to use, but it makes offensive battery pushes harder to execute
It is not balance it is design. The way Protoss is designed makes it forgiving. Thus in the lower leagues Protoss is by far the easiest race to play. However at the top the T and Z players do not make mistakes and when that happens T and Z are better races than P but you don't get to that point until you reach the elite level prop players. Since this is the case Blizzard continued these weird bandaid patches to try and make Protoss competitive at the top level and now we have a broken patch with a bunch of super abusive builds for P to use that is decimating all but the very top players.
So imo what this comes down to is the fact that this can't be patched away. The design of P is poor and if it isn't addressed the game will continue to be this way until it is replaced by another RTS.
THe core design of both Zerg and Protoss are poor compared to the Terran. And Terran isn't exactly the best either but compared to the PZ ... So yeah, nothing will be changed or balanced. Mostly because Blizzard needs to balance their own company rather than SC2 which is in the notouch policy.
Terran is a big, big part of the problem given how they’re designed, bio pumps out tons of damage, is extremely microable and thus tools have to be given to the other races to get around this.
Having a race be the glass cannon/high ranged DPs can absolutely work, Nelves fulfil this nicely in WC3 but there’s way more melee micro and other factors at play in that game, units are less plentiful and more tanky too.
It’s a reason say, charge guarantees a hit because without it good Ts will kite for days
That's why I said that Terran isn't exacly the best design overall, but in this game it's the best designed race. And by far. My favorite example is Mutalisk. BEcause of mutalisk there were patches on Terrans(e.g. Thor, mines), Zerg(spore), Protoss(multiple patching of phoenix). They could have changed the mutalisk But nooooooooo, let's focus on bending everything else around Mutalisk. And that's just one example. And if you look at the history of the game it's even more insane - back at wol you were able to defend mutalisks with blink stalkers and storm while you were transitioning into phonix. This ended with their regen in HotS. After all the patching and bending in WoL they decided to do THAT.
Well, anyway, Blizzard won't touch the game and certainly not the design part, so we can talk all we want now
it actually IS important what, we, the plebs, have to say/how we feel abt the game.
we already see many decent players/streamers switching to protoss and unrivalled number of upcomers from this race, while terrans and zergs just cry their hearts out.
if unchecked, this trend will continue and speed up, leaving just masochists and topnotch top 3-5pros from terrans/zerg in their respective races.
at the end of the day, we play the game coz we (used to) love it, but if the end experience is that u have to face protosses one after another with their relatively random, yet so easy to execute and powerful builds, i am not sure..
it s already happening, even at very top, DH qualifiers are over 60% tototal of protosses.. and how long is this patch? give it another half a year or so and i predict 80%+ with virtually all new players coming to the game just choosing protoss.
why? because nobody likes to lose, and even more so, if it is by trying (much) harder than the opponent and see him/her laughing hard while he literally uses 1/3 of the effort.. and thanks to this thread also, it is becoming more and more common knowledge, that the race is just broken.
hence i suggest its about time: we all switch to protoss , or just quit the game coz it is just far too much not fair hence no fun :
(
You new to this game? Because Blizzard decided that SC2 is no longer an updated game, so we can talk all we want. They won't patch anything. Even getting maps on the ladder takes ages. And certainly not now, when Blizzard is facing big lawsuit
Indeed. But hey we’ve been talking for a decade about theorycraft without Blizz implementing much of it, so why stop now?!
I mean the muta is a great example, not the only one mind. There’s been a clear power creep in terms of harassment units every expansion, from medivacs boosting to DTs blinking, to the proxy oracle meta etc.
It is not balance it is design. The way Protoss is designed makes it forgiving. Thus in the lower leagues Protoss is by far the easiest race to play. However at the top the T and Z players do not make mistakes and when that happens T and Z are better races than P but you don't get to that point until you reach the elite level prop players. Since this is the case Blizzard continued these weird bandaid patches to try and make Protoss competitive at the top level and now we have a broken patch with a bunch of super abusive builds for P to use that is decimating all but the very top players.
So imo what this comes down to is the fact that this can't be patched away. The design of P is poor and if it isn't addressed the game will continue to be this way until it is replaced by another RTS.
THe core design of both Zerg and Protoss are poor compared to the Terran. And Terran isn't exactly the best either but compared to the PZ ... So yeah, nothing will be changed or balanced. Mostly because Blizzard needs to balance their own company rather than SC2 which is in the notouch policy.
Terran is a big, big part of the problem given how they’re designed, bio pumps out tons of damage, is extremely microable and thus tools have to be given to the other races to get around this.
Having a race be the glass cannon/high ranged DPs can absolutely work, Nelves fulfil this nicely in WC3 but there’s way more melee micro and other factors at play in that game, units are less plentiful and more tanky too.
It’s a reason say, charge guarantees a hit because without it good Ts will kite for days
That's why I said that Terran isn't exacly the best design overall, but in this game it's the best designed race. And by far. My favorite example is Mutalisk. BEcause of mutalisk there were patches on Terrans(e.g. Thor, mines), Zerg(spore), Protoss(multiple patching of phoenix). They could have changed the mutalisk But nooooooooo, let's focus on bending everything else around Mutalisk. And that's just one example. And if you look at the history of the game it's even more insane - back at wol you were able to defend mutalisks with blink stalkers and storm while you were transitioning into phonix. This ended with their regen in HotS. After all the patching and bending in WoL they decided to do THAT.
Well, anyway, Blizzard won't touch the game and certainly not the design part, so we can talk all we want now
it actually IS important what, we, the plebs, have to say/how we feel abt the game.
we already see many decent players/streamers switching to protoss and unrivalled number of upcomers from this race, while terrans and zergs just cry their hearts out.
if unchecked, this trend will continue and speed up, leaving just masochists and topnotch top 3-5pros from terrans/zerg in their respective races.
at the end of the day, we play the game coz we (used to) love it, but if the end experience is that u have to face protosses one after another with their relatively random, yet so easy to execute and powerful builds, i am not sure..
it s already happening, even at very top, DH qualifiers are over 60% tototal of protosses.. and how long is this patch? give it another half a year or so and i predict 80%+ with virtually all new players coming to the game just choosing protoss.
why? because nobody likes to lose, and even more so, if it is by trying (much) harder than the opponent and see him/her laughing hard while he literally uses 1/3 of the effort.. and thanks to this thread also, it is becoming more and more common knowledge, that the race is just broken.
hence i suggest its about time: we all switch to protoss , or just quit the game coz it is just far too much not fair hence no fun :
(
You new to this game? Because Blizzard decided that SC2 is no longer an updated game, so we can talk all we want. They won't patch anything. Even getting maps on the ladder takes ages. And certainly not now, when Blizzard is facing big lawsuit
Indeed. But hey we’ve been talking for a decade about theorycraft without Blizz implementing much of it, so why stop now?!
I mean the muta is a great example, not the only one mind. There’s been a clear power creep in terms of harassment units every expansion, from medivacs boosting to DTs blinking, to the proxy oracle meta etc.
Maybe someone should tell Blizz SC2 is a woman, that should get someone to touch it.
It is not balance it is design. The way Protoss is designed makes it forgiving. Thus in the lower leagues Protoss is by far the easiest race to play. However at the top the T and Z players do not make mistakes and when that happens T and Z are better races than P but you don't get to that point until you reach the elite level prop players. Since this is the case Blizzard continued these weird bandaid patches to try and make Protoss competitive at the top level and now we have a broken patch with a bunch of super abusive builds for P to use that is decimating all but the very top players.
So imo what this comes down to is the fact that this can't be patched away. The design of P is poor and if it isn't addressed the game will continue to be this way until it is replaced by another RTS.
THe core design of both Zerg and Protoss are poor compared to the Terran. And Terran isn't exactly the best either but compared to the PZ ... So yeah, nothing will be changed or balanced. Mostly because Blizzard needs to balance their own company rather than SC2 which is in the notouch policy.
Terran is a big, big part of the problem given how they’re designed, bio pumps out tons of damage, is extremely microable and thus tools have to be given to the other races to get around this.
Having a race be the glass cannon/high ranged DPs can absolutely work, Nelves fulfil this nicely in WC3 but there’s way more melee micro and other factors at play in that game, units are less plentiful and more tanky too.
It’s a reason say, charge guarantees a hit because without it good Ts will kite for days
That's why I said that Terran isn't exacly the best design overall, but in this game it's the best designed race. And by far. My favorite example is Mutalisk. BEcause of mutalisk there were patches on Terrans(e.g. Thor, mines), Zerg(spore), Protoss(multiple patching of phoenix). They could have changed the mutalisk But nooooooooo, let's focus on bending everything else around Mutalisk. And that's just one example. And if you look at the history of the game it's even more insane - back at wol you were able to defend mutalisks with blink stalkers and storm while you were transitioning into phonix. This ended with their regen in HotS. After all the patching and bending in WoL they decided to do THAT.
Well, anyway, Blizzard won't touch the game and certainly not the design part, so we can talk all we want now
it actually IS important what, we, the plebs, have to say/how we feel abt the game.
we already see many decent players/streamers switching to protoss and unrivalled number of upcomers from this race, while terrans and zergs just cry their hearts out.
if unchecked, this trend will continue and speed up, leaving just masochists and topnotch top 3-5pros from terrans/zerg in their respective races.
at the end of the day, we play the game coz we (used to) love it, but if the end experience is that u have to face protosses one after another with their relatively random, yet so easy to execute and powerful builds, i am not sure..
it s already happening, even at very top, DH qualifiers are over 60% tototal of protosses.. and how long is this patch? give it another half a year or so and i predict 80%+ with virtually all new players coming to the game just choosing protoss.
why? because nobody likes to lose, and even more so, if it is by trying (much) harder than the opponent and see him/her laughing hard while he literally uses 1/3 of the effort.. and thanks to this thread also, it is becoming more and more common knowledge, that the race is just broken.
hence i suggest its about time: we all switch to protoss , or just quit the game coz it is just far too much not fair hence no fun :
(
You new to this game? Because Blizzard decided that SC2 is no longer an updated game, so we can talk all we want. They won't patch anything. Even getting maps on the ladder takes ages. And certainly not now, when Blizzard is facing big lawsuit
Indeed. But hey we’ve been talking for a decade about theorycraft without Blizz implementing much of it, so why stop now?!
I mean the muta is a great example, not the only one mind. There’s been a clear power creep in terms of harassment units every expansion, from medivacs boosting to DTs blinking, to the proxy oracle meta etc.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I am not against the talks. I like to theorycraft I just don't want people to get hyped that Blizzard will patch it
It is not balance it is design. The way Protoss is designed makes it forgiving. Thus in the lower leagues Protoss is by far the easiest race to play. However at the top the T and Z players do not make mistakes and when that happens T and Z are better races than P but you don't get to that point until you reach the elite level prop players. Since this is the case Blizzard continued these weird bandaid patches to try and make Protoss competitive at the top level and now we have a broken patch with a bunch of super abusive builds for P to use that is decimating all but the very top players.
So imo what this comes down to is the fact that this can't be patched away. The design of P is poor and if it isn't addressed the game will continue to be this way until it is replaced by another RTS.
THe core design of both Zerg and Protoss are poor compared to the Terran. And Terran isn't exactly the best either but compared to the PZ ... So yeah, nothing will be changed or balanced. Mostly because Blizzard needs to balance their own company rather than SC2 which is in the notouch policy.
Terran is a big, big part of the problem given how they’re designed, bio pumps out tons of damage, is extremely microable and thus tools have to be given to the other races to get around this.
Having a race be the glass cannon/high ranged DPs can absolutely work, Nelves fulfil this nicely in WC3 but there’s way more melee micro and other factors at play in that game, units are less plentiful and more tanky too.
It’s a reason say, charge guarantees a hit because without it good Ts will kite for days
That's why I said that Terran isn't exacly the best design overall, but in this game it's the best designed race. And by far. My favorite example is Mutalisk. BEcause of mutalisk there were patches on Terrans(e.g. Thor, mines), Zerg(spore), Protoss(multiple patching of phoenix). They could have changed the mutalisk But nooooooooo, let's focus on bending everything else around Mutalisk. And that's just one example. And if you look at the history of the game it's even more insane - back at wol you were able to defend mutalisks with blink stalkers and storm while you were transitioning into phonix. This ended with their regen in HotS. After all the patching and bending in WoL they decided to do THAT.
Well, anyway, Blizzard won't touch the game and certainly not the design part, so we can talk all we want now
it actually IS important what, we, the plebs, have to say/how we feel abt the game.
we already see many decent players/streamers switching to protoss and unrivalled number of upcomers from this race, while terrans and zergs just cry their hearts out.
if unchecked, this trend will continue and speed up, leaving just masochists and topnotch top 3-5pros from terrans/zerg in their respective races.
at the end of the day, we play the game coz we (used to) love it, but if the end experience is that u have to face protosses one after another with their relatively random, yet so easy to execute and powerful builds, i am not sure..
it s already happening, even at very top, DH qualifiers are over 60% tototal of protosses.. and how long is this patch? give it another half a year or so and i predict 80%+ with virtually all new players coming to the game just choosing protoss.
why? because nobody likes to lose, and even more so, if it is by trying (much) harder than the opponent and see him/her laughing hard while he literally uses 1/3 of the effort.. and thanks to this thread also, it is becoming more and more common knowledge, that the race is just broken.
hence i suggest its about time: we all switch to protoss , or just quit the game coz it is just far too much not fair hence no fun :
(
You new to this game? Because Blizzard decided that SC2 is no longer an updated game, so we can talk all we want. They won't patch anything. Even getting maps on the ladder takes ages. And certainly not now, when Blizzard is facing big lawsuit
Indeed. But hey we’ve been talking for a decade about theorycraft without Blizz implementing much of it, so why stop now?!
I mean the muta is a great example, not the only one mind. There’s been a clear power creep in terms of harassment units every expansion, from medivacs boosting to DTs blinking, to the proxy oracle meta etc.
Maybe someone should tell Blizz SC2 is a woman, that should get someone to touch it.
Yeah, I wanted to write something like that, but was too afraid to write it
It is not balance it is design. The way Protoss is designed makes it forgiving. Thus in the lower leagues Protoss is by far the easiest race to play. However at the top the T and Z players do not make mistakes and when that happens T and Z are better races than P but you don't get to that point until you reach the elite level prop players. Since this is the case Blizzard continued these weird bandaid patches to try and make Protoss competitive at the top level and now we have a broken patch with a bunch of super abusive builds for P to use that is decimating all but the very top players.
So imo what this comes down to is the fact that this can't be patched away. The design of P is poor and if it isn't addressed the game will continue to be this way until it is replaced by another RTS.
THe core design of both Zerg and Protoss are poor compared to the Terran. And Terran isn't exactly the best either but compared to the PZ ... So yeah, nothing will be changed or balanced. Mostly because Blizzard needs to balance their own company rather than SC2 which is in the notouch policy.
Terran is a big, big part of the problem given how they’re designed, bio pumps out tons of damage, is extremely microable and thus tools have to be given to the other races to get around this.
Having a race be the glass cannon/high ranged DPs can absolutely work, Nelves fulfil this nicely in WC3 but there’s way more melee micro and other factors at play in that game, units are less plentiful and more tanky too.
It’s a reason say, charge guarantees a hit because without it good Ts will kite for days
That's why I said that Terran isn't exacly the best design overall, but in this game it's the best designed race. And by far. My favorite example is Mutalisk. BEcause of mutalisk there were patches on Terrans(e.g. Thor, mines), Zerg(spore), Protoss(multiple patching of phoenix). They could have changed the mutalisk But nooooooooo, let's focus on bending everything else around Mutalisk. And that's just one example. And if you look at the history of the game it's even more insane - back at wol you were able to defend mutalisks with blink stalkers and storm while you were transitioning into phonix. This ended with their regen in HotS. After all the patching and bending in WoL they decided to do THAT.
Well, anyway, Blizzard won't touch the game and certainly not the design part, so we can talk all we want now
it actually IS important what, we, the plebs, have to say/how we feel abt the game.
we already see many decent players/streamers switching to protoss and unrivalled number of upcomers from this race, while terrans and zergs just cry their hearts out.
if unchecked, this trend will continue and speed up, leaving just masochists and topnotch top 3-5pros from terrans/zerg in their respective races.
at the end of the day, we play the game coz we (used to) love it, but if the end experience is that u have to face protosses one after another with their relatively random, yet so easy to execute and powerful builds, i am not sure..
it s already happening, even at very top, DH qualifiers are over 60% tototal of protosses.. and how long is this patch? give it another half a year or so and i predict 80%+ with virtually all new players coming to the game just choosing protoss.
why? because nobody likes to lose, and even more so, if it is by trying (much) harder than the opponent and see him/her laughing hard while he literally uses 1/3 of the effort.. and thanks to this thread also, it is becoming more and more common knowledge, that the race is just broken.
hence i suggest its about time: we all switch to protoss , or just quit the game coz it is just far too much not fair hence no fun :
(
You new to this game? Because Blizzard decided that SC2 is no longer an updated game, so we can talk all we want. They won't patch anything. Even getting maps on the ladder takes ages. And certainly not now, when Blizzard is facing big lawsuit
Indeed. But hey we’ve been talking for a decade about theorycraft without Blizz implementing much of it, so why stop now?!
I mean the muta is a great example, not the only one mind. There’s been a clear power creep in terms of harassment units every expansion, from medivacs boosting to DTs blinking, to the proxy oracle meta etc.
Maybe someone should tell Blizz SC2 is a woman, that should get someone to touch it.
On July 24 2021 01:46 TLN00 wrote: unfortunately the game in its current patch till abt 6k mmr is sth like: Protoss mmr= Terran/Zerg mmr +(500-800) for the same skill.
feels bad that my terran and protoss mmr are the same, looks like I am an absolute trash protoss
I mean I’d assume from my experiences and just general deduction that Protoss just won’t suit everyone and a blanket rule like ‘Protoss MMR is +500 from other races’ is just silly.
If you don’t like doing all sorts of wonky all-ins, or your strengths are playing defensively or in mechanics you kind of miss out on a lot that makes Protoss so potent/aggravating to face.
yeah.. for another perspective, i've quit and come back to the game so many times over the years to play my little 10 hours a week or whatever, and im getting around the same rank as i always get. so from my perspective, nothing has changed. i'm not randomly +500 mmr this time around. in fact if anything my absolute rank has been relatively lower, mostly from being unable to win PvZ's, which is like a 25% win rate for me
i really think it has to do with the particular builds that all these EU protoss ladder players are playing.
first of all, it's extremely rare that any of them are unaware of how every other protoss is playing PvT or PvZ. normally if someone just plays ladder, they get to see how other players play the mirror matchup, but they have no idea what players of the same race are doing against the other races. absolutely not the case on the EU ladder today. there's a protoss hivemind trickling down from the pros
which normally that's fine. i think zergs and terrans are also quite aware of what pros are doing. the problem is when the builds that the pros use (which the EU GM hivemind copies) happen to be very good ladder builds as well. that's where the issue lies.
both matchups (pvz, pvt) are in a good spot AND protoss has the strongest ladder builds AND current pro builds happen to be very good ladder builds (whereas what zerg and terran pros do against these protoss builds are not very good ladder builds for lower skill players). so that's a problem.
i think any protoss going their on way is not going to see their rank effortlessly rise higher than it's ever been in years past. and any zerg or terran who for years has comfortably been copying pros as a source for standard builds to play is now being let down. better to try some unorthodox play or just play the way you want to and forget about your MMR goals
On July 24 2021 01:46 TLN00 wrote: unfortunately the game in its current patch till abt 6k mmr is sth like: Protoss mmr= Terran/Zerg mmr +(500-800) for the same skill.
feels bad that my terran and protoss mmr are the same, looks like I am an absolute trash protoss
I mean I’d assume from my experiences and just general deduction that Protoss just won’t suit everyone and a blanket rule like ‘Protoss MMR is +500 from other races’ is just silly.
If you don’t like doing all sorts of wonky all-ins, or your strengths are playing defensively or in mechanics you kind of miss out on a lot that makes Protoss so potent/aggravating to face.
yeah.. for another perspective, i've quit and come back to the game so many times over the years to play my little 10 hours a week or whatever, and im getting around the same rank as i always get. so from my perspective, nothing has changed. i'm not randomly +500 mmr this time around. in fact if anything my absolute rank has been relatively lower, mostly from being unable to win PvZ's, which is like a 25% win rate for me
i really think it has to do with the particular builds that all these EU protoss ladder players are playing.
first of all, it's extremely rare that any of them are unaware of how every other protoss is playing PvT or PvZ. normally if someone just plays ladder, they get to see how other players play the mirror matchup, but they have no idea what players of the same race are doing against the other races. absolutely not the case on the EU ladder today. there's a protoss hivemind trickling down from the pros
which normally that's fine. i think zergs and terrans are also quite aware of what pros are doing. the problem is when the builds that the pros use (which the EU GM hivemind copies) happen to be very good ladder builds as well. that's where the issue lies.
both matchups (pvz, pvt) are in a good spot AND protoss has the strongest ladder builds AND current pro builds happen to be very good ladder builds (whereas what zerg and terran pros do against these protoss builds are not very good ladder builds for lower skill players). so that's a problem.
i think any protoss going their on way is not going to see their rank effortlessly rise higher than it's ever been in years past. and any zerg or terran who for years has comfortably been copying pros as a source for standard builds to play is now being let down. better to try some unorthodox play or just play the way you want to and forget about your MMR goals
Interesting perspective and you’re a much better player than I be, so it probably extends further up the MMR chain than I thought!
Yeah there’s certainly a difference in the power of copying builds too, if you’re copying a Terran/Zerg build that you catch in Code S or a Dreamhack Masters it’s invariably some kind of greedy opener, tailored to dovetail nicely against an opponent who is also being greedy, and which requires a lot of adjustment based on scouting that the exponents can just do, but isn’t immediately obvious to a lower level player just copying the opening.
Back in the olden days I tried to play a real passive, harass-based PvZ a la Liquid HerO, had some fun games even in losses and when I pulled it off it felt great, but ultimately I was rocking a 30% PvZ at a time I had a 70% PvT.
Wasn’t especially happy with that win rate, so I spent a few days getting a (reasonably) optimised version of Parting’s soul train that I just did blindly for the most part and my win rate absolutely shot up to like 60%+
Didn’t really feel good, I wasn’t any better at the game, nor had I crafted it myself I was just copying a build and doing it. And yeah this is where the hive mind kicks in.
And I don’t think much has changed in the last 8 years or so, if anything there’s probably more good blind builds you can learn and hit a pretty high MMR if you execute them properly.
Terran don’t have a huge amount that aren’t hugely risky and scoutable and Zergs have even less again.
People seem to be confusing popularity with imbalance.
Just because there are more Protoss in GM does not indicate Protoss is too good. It simply means that Protoss is currently more popular among high-rated players. There are various plausible explanations for this, not all of which involve imbalance. For example, people might just simply enjoy playing the Protoss matchups more on ladder right now.
Protoss might be too good, but GM population statistics is the wrong data to analyze to answer that question. It would be better to look at matchup winrates, map winrates, tournament results, etc.
Protoss is a harder race than Terran or Zerg so their players have to practice harder. Terran and Zerg pros are mostly hanging around at beaches in tank tops while Protoss players grind the ladder and then when they occassionally start up a ladder game they obviously will face Protoss
since there are many more toss defenders than i expected, let me ask all of you 3 simple questions, which in my eyes, would make toss quite a bit harder to control, and yet not at all interact with its overall potential strenght.
1, why is zealot charge autocasted? (sending 8 zealot runby on a rally while big fight is potentially devastating, with 0 attention required) 2, why HTs have attack outside of storm (psi blast)? (hence if toss Amove whole army, they will NOT suicide like vipers/infestors will do and require a lot less babysitting) 3, why shield batteries are autocasted? (hence all the proxy AIs are so damn easy compared to T/Z holding it. just focusing on making 4-5strong units and moving them back and forth with instant healing; also: toss has a lot more time to react to runbys if there is only literally 1 unit holding the choke or build gazillions of batteries w cannons on bases in lategame having to spend 0 attention to multitask on 2+ fronts like T or Z have to all the time. (for all those claiming toss units are generally slowest- ok- make batteries within some short range of nexus be autocasted, but why they can be used literally anywhere on the map like that?)
On July 24 2021 21:32 TLN00 wrote: since there are many more toss defenders than i expected, let me ask all of you 3 simple questions, which in my eyes, would make toss quite a bit harder to control, and yet not at all interact with its overall potential strenght.
1, why is zealot charge autocasted? (sending 8 zealot runby on a rally while big fight is potentially devastating, with 0 attention required) 2, why HTs have attack outside of storm (psi blast)? (hence if toss Amove whole army, they will NOT suicide like vipers/infestors will do and require a lot less babysitting) 3, why shield batteries are autocasted? (hence all the proxy AIs are so damn easy compared to T/Z holding it. just focusing on making 4-5strong units and moving them back and forth with instant healing; also: toss has a lot more time to react to runbys if there is only literally 1 unit holding the choke or build gazillions of batteries w cannons on bases in lategame having to spend 0 attention to multitask on 2+ fronts like T or Z have to all the time. (for all those claiming toss units are generally slowest- ok- make batteries within some short range of nexus be autocasted, but why they can be used literally anywhere on the map like that?)
A good terran player will abuse a protoss whos zealots just charge off at every chance they get so protoss actually has to babysit them more than one would think so I am fine with them being autocasted.
Also I think a good protoss will micro a shield battery to recharge a better unit so I would rather they changed the ammount of energy it starts with or the cost of it instead to lower the effectiveness.
The one I really agree with is high templar having an auto attack now. That is just blatant handholding for a race whos army is already easier to micro than the others.
I remember 2 years ago when Puck (now Nina) was in PvZ purgatory (or PvZ hell, depending on the results of the games) - back then Zerg was the overwhelmingly popular race.
Sadly, I don't remember a time when Terran was the most seen race - but I don't claim to be an expert.
I believe there is a simple explanation for this. We all know Protoss is the easiest race to play mechanically. So more players have chosen Protoss as their main race and have refined their play over the years. So, of course more Protoss players will eventually reach GM.
However SC2 is balanced around the very top of the pro scene, which is a higher level of play than top GM. At the very highest level, the game seems to be balanced.
On July 24 2021 01:46 TLN00 wrote: unfortunately the game in its current patch till abt 6k mmr is sth like: Protoss mmr= Terran/Zerg mmr +(500-800) for the same skill.
feels bad that my terran and protoss mmr are the same, looks like I am an absolute trash protoss
I mean I’d assume from my experiences and just general deduction that Protoss just won’t suit everyone and a blanket rule like ‘Protoss MMR is +500 from other races’ is just silly.
If you don’t like doing all sorts of wonky all-ins, or your strengths are playing defensively or in mechanics you kind of miss out on a lot that makes Protoss so potent/aggravating to face.
yeah.. for another perspective, i've quit and come back to the game so many times over the years to play my little 10 hours a week or whatever, and im getting around the same rank as i always get. so from my perspective, nothing has changed. i'm not randomly +500 mmr this time around. in fact if anything my absolute rank has been relatively lower, mostly from being unable to win PvZ's, which is like a 25% win rate for me
i really think it has to do with the particular builds that all these EU protoss ladder players are playing.
first of all, it's extremely rare that any of them are unaware of how every other protoss is playing PvT or PvZ. normally if someone just plays ladder, they get to see how other players play the mirror matchup, but they have no idea what players of the same race are doing against the other races. absolutely not the case on the EU ladder today. there's a protoss hivemind trickling down from the pros
which normally that's fine. i think zergs and terrans are also quite aware of what pros are doing. the problem is when the builds that the pros use (which the EU GM hivemind copies) happen to be very good ladder builds as well. that's where the issue lies.
both matchups (pvz, pvt) are in a good spot AND protoss has the strongest ladder builds AND current pro builds happen to be very good ladder builds (whereas what zerg and terran pros do against these protoss builds are not very good ladder builds for lower skill players). so that's a problem.
i think any protoss going their on way is not going to see their rank effortlessly rise higher than it's ever been in years past. and any zerg or terran who for years has comfortably been copying pros as a source for standard builds to play is now being let down. better to try some unorthodox play or just play the way you want to and forget about your MMR goals
Interesting perspective and you’re a much better player than I be, so it probably extends further up the MMR chain than I thought!
Yeah there’s certainly a difference in the power of copying builds too, if you’re copying a Terran/Zerg build that you catch in Code S or a Dreamhack Masters it’s invariably some kind of greedy opener, tailored to dovetail nicely against an opponent who is also being greedy, and which requires a lot of adjustment based on scouting that the exponents can just do, but isn’t immediately obvious to a lower level player just copying the opening.
Back in the olden days I tried to play a real passive, harass-based PvZ a la Liquid HerO, had some fun games even in losses and when I pulled it off it felt great, but ultimately I was rocking a 30% PvZ at a time I had a 70% PvT.
Wasn’t especially happy with that win rate, so I spent a few days getting a (reasonably) optimised version of Parting’s soul train that I just did blindly for the most part and my win rate absolutely shot up to like 60%+
Didn’t really feel good, I wasn’t any better at the game, nor had I crafted it myself I was just copying a build and doing it. And yeah this is where the hive mind kicks in.
And I don’t think much has changed in the last 8 years or so, if anything there’s probably more good blind builds you can learn and hit a pretty high MMR if you execute them properly.
Terran don’t have a huge amount that aren’t hugely risky and scoutable and Zergs have even less again.
I think this might be it. Some of the strategies Protoss Pro use are very good ladder strats.
Particularly cheesy and agressive builds.
Remember that at the end of the day ladder is Best of 1, so strategies that get you fast and cheap wins will thrive (like cheese). Protoss is good at this kind of things, and so players adop it easier.
Compare that to terran or zerg pros that, altough agressive, generally are more macro oriented. Protoss early game is strong, so terran has to rely on mine drops and push the protoss third as it's going up. That's much more abstract than simply making proxy VR.
On July 25 2021 11:16 coolguy_704 wrote: I believe there is a simple explanation for this. We all know Protoss is the easiest race to play mechanically. So more players have chosen Protoss as their main race and have refined their play over the years. So, of course more Protoss players will eventually reach GM.
However SC2 is balanced around the very top of the pro scene, which is a higher level of play than top GM. At the very highest level, the game seems to be balanced.
Well this should have happened sooner then. But it’s a mix of things, Protoss being easier allowed a lot of players to reach masters or GM more easily than with other races, but having that many at the top is probably a combination of the latest patch making them too strong / fun. Winning is fun so the fun you will have is not solely dependent on how fun is your race intrinsically, but also how you fare against others.
On July 25 2021 11:16 coolguy_704 wrote: I believe there is a simple explanation for this. We all know Protoss is the easiest race to play mechanically. So more players have chosen Protoss as their main race and have refined their play over the years. So, of course more Protoss players will eventually reach GM.
However SC2 is balanced around the very top of the pro scene, which is a higher level of play than top GM. At the very highest level, the game seems to be balanced.
You're so close except the players in the top of GM are the pros. You have to differentiate between ladder and tournaments and even then it gets sticky because Trap has been winning a lot recently. You have to curate it to the biggest tournaments like Season finals (where no protoss were in the round of 8) or GSL where Zerg has been dominating. Overall its a mixed bag and queen walks/void rays are becoming ironed out so I think we should wait a month or two to see who really comes out on top.
50% of the qualified players for DH EU are Protoss, and most of them will be cannon fodder for the big guns. So yeah, the huge overrepresentation of P players at the "just below top level" narrative is true, at least in this region. Admittedly more of a design problem than a balance problem per se, but still a problem imo.
On July 25 2021 02:36 Mlord wrote: Yearly reminder that there is still no counterplay to DT blink in lategame, no counterplay in a RTS SEND HELP
put a liberator on top of your planetary and if u wanna go crazy, a widowmine or 2. Maru does it all the time.
Thanks for your deep understanding of the problem master
A lib and a few mines is less supply and cost less than dt hitsquads. Not sure if you want to elaborate on why this is not a good answer?? Dts usually have to blink to get onto a planetary which will mean they are literally blinking into mines and a liberator field. As long as you can repair before the 3rd volley of dt swipes you should be completely fine.
On July 22 2021 01:03 geokilla wrote: Protoss is an easy race compared to Terran and Zerg. I'm stuck at around 3700MMR on the NA ladder because I just can't beat late game TvZ and TvP. Once Protoss gets Carriers with Storms and/or Disruptors, I lose like 90% of the time. Once Zerg gets Ultras with Lurkers, I lose like 80% of the time. It's honestly depressing and makes me want to stop playing the game. From an entertainment point of view, no one likes to lose their games. If they can win more playing a certain race, they'll definitely do it.
Also from a strategy point of view, I think Protoss has more diverse strategies at the higher levels. You can also keep up or even out macro a Zerg because larva inject is actually pretty hard to do. Or if you want to play aggressive, you can by going for Gateway all in or something. Again, it's a very nice to play but at the absolute top, probably the weakest of all 3. We've all seen what Terrans can do when under the control of Clem or Maru with no ping.
same reasons i wet back to play Broodwar.
SC2 Terran late game feels so weak, i saw a game the other day Maru vs Serral and i was kind of laughing at the Terran having 130ish supply when Zerg was almost 200ish with a lot better economy plus more bases how is a Terran supposed to complete with that when Terran doesn't have effective AOE spells like toss do?
On July 26 2021 03:57 [PkF] Wire wrote: 50% of the qualified players for DH EU are Protoss, and most of them will be cannon fodder for the big guns. So yeah, the huge overrepresentation of P players at the "just below top level" narrative is true, at least in this region. Admittedly more of a design problem than a balance problem per se, but still a problem imo.
Top level builds translate better to qualifiers too for protoss it seems
On July 24 2021 20:44 Charoisaur wrote: Protoss is a harder race than Terran or Zerg so their players have to practice harder. Terran and Zerg pros are mostly hanging around at beaches in tank tops while Protoss players grind the ladder and then when they occassionally start up a ladder game they obviously will face Protoss
If that so, how come Tobias, Zest, herO or Bisu are all supermodels ?
On July 26 2021 03:57 [PkF] Wire wrote: 50% of the qualified players for DH EU are Protoss, and most of them will be cannon fodder for the big guns. So yeah, the huge overrepresentation of P players at the "just below top level" narrative is true, at least in this region. Admittedly more of a design problem than a balance problem per se, but still a problem imo.
Top level builds translate better to qualifiers too for protoss it seems
Well qualifiers are in the end just BO3, aren't they? And BO3 is still considered quite volatile that's why we have usually a double elimination bracket.
On July 26 2021 03:57 [PkF] Wire wrote: 50% of the qualified players for DH EU are Protoss, and most of them will be cannon fodder for the big guns. So yeah, the huge overrepresentation of P players at the "just below top level" narrative is true, at least in this region. Admittedly more of a design problem than a balance problem per se, but still a problem imo.
Top level builds translate better to qualifiers too for protoss it seems
Well qualifiers are in the end just BO3, aren't they? And BO3 is still considered quite volatile that's why we have usually a double elimination bracket.
Qualifying matches were best of 5, which is as at least as long and "stable" as the majority of tournament matches.
Post qualifiers we have: EU - 15 Protoss, 17 not Protoss. NA - 9 Protoss, 7 not Protoss.
KR is on a slightly different system (although they already have 4 protoss and 2 non Protoss qualified in for the season finals). The other regions are substantially less relevant, but here's a breakdown anyway:
Latam - 1 protoss 7 non protoss China - 4 protoss 4 not TW / HK / MO / JP - 3 protoss 5 not Oceania - 4 protoss 4 not.
Unless you only watch Latam games, pretty much anywhere you go on the DH circuit (including likely the season finals at this rate), about half the players you will see are gonna be protoss.
protoss is a more strategic race and less of a mechanically driven one.
that makes it the "easiest" race up to ~6.3k from that point on, i feel like things are pretty equal up to 6.7k ish, and then, the mechanically driven races take over. that doesn't mean that "LUL protoss weak in pro sc2", it just means that mechanics can carry godlike players more consistantly with terran and especially zerg (on the ladder)
this leads to most pro protoss being stuck at 6.6k, but there being more of them, while the spread of terran and zerg is pretty even at all levels amongst their ppl. many zerg/terran players on a lower pro level or below tend to give up frustrated earlier or simply don't have the required "talent" and speed to progress. a 6.6k protoss with a different race from the get go would either be a frustrated 6.2k terran/zerg or - less likely - a 6.9k terran/zerg, depending on their mechanics. again, that doesn't mean protoss requires no mechanics at all, espeically at pro level, but you can go much further with just "solid" mechanics and smart plays than with other races, while you need godlike mechanics with terran/zerg - while you probably get more consistantly good results with these races even if you get out-stratagized every game (zerg being the even more extreme example).
On July 25 2021 02:36 Mlord wrote: Yearly reminder that there is still no counterplay to DT blink in lategame, no counterplay in a RTS SEND HELP
put a liberator on top of your planetary and if u wanna go crazy, a widowmine or 2. Maru does it all the time.
Thanks for your deep understanding of the problem master
It doesn't matter, Blizzard won't patch it anyway so you either find some way or give up I chose the latter but I don't rely on SC2 to make monies.
On July 26 2021 05:40 Scarlett` wrote:
On July 26 2021 03:57 [PkF] Wire wrote: 50% of the qualified players for DH EU are Protoss, and most of them will be cannon fodder for the big guns. So yeah, the huge overrepresentation of P players at the "just below top level" narrative is true, at least in this region. Admittedly more of a design problem than a balance problem per se, but still a problem imo.
Top level builds translate better to qualifiers too for protoss it seems
Well qualifiers are in the end just BO3, aren't they? And BO3 is still considered quite volatile that's why we have usually a double elimination bracket.
Qualifying matches were best of 5, which is as at least as long and "stable" as the majority of tournament matches.
Post qualifiers we have: EU - 15 Protoss, 17 not Protoss. NA - 9 Protoss, 7 not Protoss.
KR is on a slightly different system (although they already have 4 protoss and 2 non Protoss qualified in for the season finals). The other regions are substantially less relevant, but here's a breakdown anyway:
Latam - 1 protoss 7 non protoss China - 4 protoss 4 not TW / HK / MO / JP - 3 protoss 5 not Oceania - 4 protoss 4 not.
Unless you only watch Latam games, pretty much anywhere you go on the DH circuit (including likely the season finals at this rate), about half the players you will see are gonna be protoss.
OK, I checked the qualis and it was bo3 -> bo5. So some players can lose in the bo3 and then the bo5 doesn't matter much. Also I am not watching it anyway, vote with your wallet if you don';t like something.
On July 27 2021 18:51 KalWarkov wrote: protoss is a more strategic race and less of a mechanically driven one.
that makes it the "easiest" race up to ~6.3k from that point on, i feel like things are pretty equal up to 6.7k ish, and then, the mechanically driven races take over. that doesn't mean that "LUL protoss weak in pro sc2", it just means that mechanics can carry godlike players more consistantly with terran and especially zerg (on the ladder)
this leads to most pro protoss being stuck at 6.6k, but there being more of them, while the spread of terran and zerg is pretty even at all levels amongst their ppl. many zerg/terran players on a lower pro level or below tend to give up frustrated earlier or simply don't have the required "talent" and speed to progress. a 6.6k protoss with a different race from the get go would either be a frustrated 6.2k terran/zerg or - less likely - a 6.9k terran/zerg, depending on their mechanics. again, that doesn't mean protoss requires no mechanics at all, espeically at pro level, but you can go much further with just "solid" mechanics and smart plays than with other races, while you need godlike mechanics with terran/zerg - while you probably get more consistantly good results with these races even if you get out-stratagized every game (zerg being the even more extreme example).
that's how i see things at least.
that's pretty accurate imo. In an ideal world Protoss would be changed to be a bit more mechanically demanding without making the race less competitive at the world class level, but I guess we have to deal with the fact Protoss will be overrepresented in the early stages of every tournament for the time being.
On July 27 2021 18:51 KalWarkov wrote: protoss is a more strategic race and less of a mechanically driven one.
that makes it the "easiest" race up to ~6.3k from that point on, i feel like things are pretty equal up to 6.7k ish, and then, the mechanically driven races take over. that doesn't mean that "LUL protoss weak in pro sc2", it just means that mechanics can carry godlike players more consistantly with terran and especially zerg (on the ladder)
this leads to most pro protoss being stuck at 6.6k, but there being more of them, while the spread of terran and zerg is pretty even at all levels amongst their ppl. many zerg/terran players on a lower pro level or below tend to give up frustrated earlier or simply don't have the required "talent" and speed to progress. a 6.6k protoss with a different race from the get go would either be a frustrated 6.2k terran/zerg or - less likely - a 6.9k terran/zerg, depending on their mechanics. again, that doesn't mean protoss requires no mechanics at all, espeically at pro level, but you can go much further with just "solid" mechanics and smart plays than with other races, while you need godlike mechanics with terran/zerg - while you probably get more consistantly good results with these races even if you get out-stratagized every game (zerg being the even more extreme example).
that's how i see things at least.
I preach this for ten years, thank you for writing it so well.
On July 27 2021 18:51 KalWarkov wrote: protoss is a more strategic race and less of a mechanically driven one.
that makes it the "easiest" race up to ~6.3k
I just played a Terran who didn't build units, tried to rush out expansions behind Planetary Fortresses and Missile Turrets with building upgrades while going to mass Ravens, thinks that not idling Gateways is a "rush" and is convinced the only reason he lost is Protoss imba. This guy is in Diamond League, and he's not the only Terran I've seen at that level try these kinds of strats. You will never convince me that this guy was playing a "harder" race, even if we were well below 6.3k.
Asymmetric races are going to spike at different levels, and if Protoss isn't imbalanced at higher levels and isn't imbalanced at lower levels, why exactly should the game be changed for this specific, narrow band of player skill?
On July 25 2021 02:36 Mlord wrote: Yearly reminder that there is still no counterplay to DT blink in lategame, no counterplay in a RTS SEND HELP
put a liberator on top of your planetary and if u wanna go crazy, a widowmine or 2. Maru does it all the time.
Thanks for your deep understanding of the problem master
A lib and a few mines is less supply and cost less than dt hitsquads. Not sure if you want to elaborate on why this is not a good answer?? Dts usually have to blink to get onto a planetary which will mean they are literally blinking into mines and a liberator field. As long as you can repair before the 3rd volley of dt swipes you should be completely fine.
Heromarine showed all the problems of defending blinked dts multiple times on stream. It is just not as simple as putting 2 mines and a lib at the planetary. What if you are on 5 bases? should you do it everywhere. When you premove the blink the dt squad so they spreaded around the planetary, you can even kill the planetary despite being 2 mines and a lib there. The pros are not stupid, its a reason not everyone does it. So i understand why this answer didn't have anough quality.
On July 25 2021 02:36 Mlord wrote: Yearly reminder that there is still no counterplay to DT blink in lategame, no counterplay in a RTS SEND HELP
put a liberator on top of your planetary and if u wanna go crazy, a widowmine or 2. Maru does it all the time.
Thanks for your deep understanding of the problem master
A lib and a few mines is less supply and cost less than dt hitsquads. Not sure if you want to elaborate on why this is not a good answer?? Dts usually have to blink to get onto a planetary which will mean they are literally blinking into mines and a liberator field. As long as you can repair before the 3rd volley of dt swipes you should be completely fine.
Heromarine showed all the problems of defending blinked dts multiple times on stream. It is just not as simple as putting 2 mines and a lib at the planetary. What if you are on 5 bases? should you do it everywhere. When you premove the blink the dt squad so they spreaded around the planetary, you can even kill the planetary despite being 2 mines and a lib there. The pros are not stupid, its a reason not everyone does it. So i understand why this answer didn't have anough quality.
Well, the issue is that Blizz won't touch the game and the top Terrans are not vocal enough about it. Koreans are silent and HM isn't enough. Not that the Koreans being vocal would help in any way considering the inferno on the social networks Blizz is in right now, so this tiny fire would be probably unnoticed anyway.
On the Pylon show today, Lambo, ShowTime, and HeroMarine were discussing how GM in EU ladder is overrun by Protoss and everyone is getting so many Protoss games on ladder: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1128913356. Unfortunately, I am not a subscriber to Rotti's channel so I can't view the VOD or mark the exact time they discussed this, but roughly, it should be around the 1 hour 25 minute mark to 1 hour 45 minute mark in the VOD where they discuss this.
Lambo says about 75% of this matches on ladder are against Protoss (that leaves 25% against Terran and Zerg). And ShowTime also acknowledged he is getting swamped with PvsP on ladder. And of course, Big Gabe already gets a large number of Protoss matches on ladder.