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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 24 2021 04:50 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2021 03:52 deacon.frost wrote:On July 24 2021 03:16 Syn Harvest wrote:+ Show Spoiler +It is not balance it is design. The way Protoss is designed makes it forgiving. Thus in the lower leagues Protoss is by far the easiest race to play. However at the top the T and Z players do not make mistakes and when that happens T and Z are better races than P but you don't get to that point until you reach the elite level prop players. Since this is the case Blizzard continued these weird bandaid patches to try and make Protoss competitive at the top level and now we have a broken patch with a bunch of super abusive builds for P to use that is decimating all but the very top players. So imo what this comes down to is the fact that this can't be patched away. The design of P is poor and if it isn't addressed the game will continue to be this way until it is replaced by another RTS. THe core design of both Zerg and Protoss are poor compared to the Terran. And Terran isn't exactly the best either but compared to the PZ ...  So yeah, nothing will be changed or balanced. Mostly because Blizzard needs to balance their own company rather than SC2 which is in the notouch policy. Terran is a big, big part of the problem given how they’re designed, bio pumps out tons of damage, is extremely microable and thus tools have to be given to the other races to get around this. Having a race be the glass cannon/high ranged DPs can absolutely work, Nelves fulfil this nicely in WC3 but there’s way more melee micro and other factors at play in that game, units are less plentiful and more tanky too. It’s a reason say, charge guarantees a hit because without it good Ts will kite for days
That's why I said that Terran isn't exacly the best design overall, but in this game it's the best designed race. And by far. My favorite example is Mutalisk. BEcause of mutalisk there were patches on Terrans(e.g. Thor, mines), Zerg(spore), Protoss(multiple patching of phoenix). They could have changed the mutalisk  But nooooooooo, let's focus on bending everything else around Mutalisk. And that's just one example. And if you look at the history of the game it's even more insane - back at wol you were able to defend mutalisks with blink stalkers and storm while you were transitioning into phonix. This ended with their regen in HotS. After all the patching and bending in WoL they decided to do THAT.
Well, anyway, Blizzard won't touch the game and certainly not the design part, so we can talk all we want now
On July 24 2021 04:41 TLN00 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +it actually IS important what, we, the plebs, have to say/how we feel abt the game.
we already see many decent players/streamers switching to protoss and unrivalled number of upcomers from this race, while terrans and zergs just cry their hearts out.
if unchecked, this trend will continue and speed up, leaving just masochists and topnotch top 3-5pros from terrans/zerg in their respective races.
at the end of the day, we play the game coz we (used to) love it, but if the end experience is that u have to face protosses one after another with their relatively random, yet so easy to execute and powerful builds, i am not sure..
it s already happening, even at very top, DH qualifiers are over 60% tototal of protosses.. and how long is this patch? give it another half a year or so and i predict 80%+ with virtually all new players coming to the game just choosing protoss.
why? because nobody likes to lose, and even more so, if it is by trying (much) harder than the opponent and see him/her laughing hard while he literally uses 1/3 of the effort.. and thanks to this thread also, it is becoming more and more common knowledge, that the race is just broken.
hence i suggest its about time: we all switch to protoss , or just quit the game coz it is just far too much not fair hence no fun : (
You new to this game? Because Blizzard decided that SC2 is no longer an updated game, so we can talk all we want. They won't patch anything. Even getting maps on the ladder takes ages. And certainly not now, when Blizzard is facing big lawsuit
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Northern Ireland25087 Posts
On July 24 2021 05:43 Snakestyle11 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2021 05:20 CicadaSC wrote:
Since protoss has a lot of aggressive options it's easier for them to do well on the ladder. In tournaments at the highest level of play, not so much. Player like Dark, Serral, Reynor, Clem, Maru will just shut you down and if anything make protoss look weak. Thats just because protoss being easy doesnt matter once you are at the top level. Once again, the problem isnt balance, PvZ is actually pretty balanced. Its just much harder to play for zerg than protoss. You are expected to use mass queens, vipers, infestors, and move a spore forest with your army. 3 spell casters, like 6 different spell, whilel focus firing every single you wanna kill because carriers. Zergs best unit, the queen, is super slow off creep, and doesnt even work with f2. Meanwhile, protoss is just a-move+storm no matter the comp really. They even gave carriers interceptor autobuild, templars auto attack so you can amove them, and warpgate auto morph. They just made protoss sooo easy. Batteries also use themselves automatically. Protoss almost plays itself when you compare to the other races. You used to be able to stop recall by killing or abducting the mothership core, now theres no counter, protoss just gets a free get out of jail card. Theres so many reasons and its so obvious why protoss is MUCH easier than zerg and terran now. The last thing you needed to do was to buff void rays and battery/canon spam. This made protoss EVEN easier than it was, and now its a total joke. The last patch was the biggest mistake ever in 10 years of starcraft2, and its the patch we are left with... If this game is bleeding out players, its definitely the fault of protoss.(not the players, just the ppl who patched this game).
At a decent level a proper Skytoss composition is as difficult to control as Zerg equivalents, I think you’re over blowing it a bit there.
Got to keep hitting oracle tags, target fire with tempest, zone spellcasters out with your Templar, hit disruptor shots if you’re mixing those in etc etc.
I generally hate airball lategame, just think it sucks but but it’s pretty technical to control from both ends.
Some other stuff, yeah. Just a small part of macro, but I like macroing, I never understood why they made warpgates auto-morph. It’s a small change yeah but I don’t think it was a good change considering Protoss macro was already less taxing in ways.
Batteries being manually cast? I’m not sure on this one. In theory I like it, I’m not sure how it looks in practice though. You might end up having to just spam the ‘heal shields’ hotkey so much you’re left with little option to actually micro.
Queens transfuse works reasonably well because you’re mostly able to A-move with your army, and also you’re generally only healing high priority, high HP units. You’re not transfusing lings generally.
With Protoss you kind of need your shields recharged en masse, and you need the free actions to control your army.
I think a reasonable halfway house would be having to activate a ‘recharge shields’ button on each battery though, with a reasonably short active time, say 5-10 seconds. That way your one or two defensive batteries to hold certain timings are still easy enough to use, but it makes offensive battery pushes harder to execute
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Northern Ireland25087 Posts
On July 24 2021 06:48 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2021 04:50 WombaT wrote:On July 24 2021 03:52 deacon.frost wrote:On July 24 2021 03:16 Syn Harvest wrote:+ Show Spoiler +It is not balance it is design. The way Protoss is designed makes it forgiving. Thus in the lower leagues Protoss is by far the easiest race to play. However at the top the T and Z players do not make mistakes and when that happens T and Z are better races than P but you don't get to that point until you reach the elite level prop players. Since this is the case Blizzard continued these weird bandaid patches to try and make Protoss competitive at the top level and now we have a broken patch with a bunch of super abusive builds for P to use that is decimating all but the very top players. So imo what this comes down to is the fact that this can't be patched away. The design of P is poor and if it isn't addressed the game will continue to be this way until it is replaced by another RTS. THe core design of both Zerg and Protoss are poor compared to the Terran. And Terran isn't exactly the best either but compared to the PZ ... So yeah, nothing will be changed or balanced. Mostly because Blizzard needs to balance their own company rather than SC2 which is in the notouch policy. Terran is a big, big part of the problem given how they’re designed, bio pumps out tons of damage, is extremely microable and thus tools have to be given to the other races to get around this. Having a race be the glass cannon/high ranged DPs can absolutely work, Nelves fulfil this nicely in WC3 but there’s way more melee micro and other factors at play in that game, units are less plentiful and more tanky too. It’s a reason say, charge guarantees a hit because without it good Ts will kite for days That's why I said that Terran isn't exacly the best design overall, but in this game it's the best designed race. And by far. My favorite example is Mutalisk. BEcause of mutalisk there were patches on Terrans(e.g. Thor, mines), Zerg(spore), Protoss(multiple patching of phoenix). They could have changed the mutalisk But nooooooooo, let's focus on bending everything else around Mutalisk. And that's just one example. And if you look at the history of the game it's even more insane - back at wol you were able to defend mutalisks with blink stalkers and storm while you were transitioning into phonix. This ended with their regen in HotS. After all the patching and bending in WoL they decided to do THAT. Well, anyway, Blizzard won't touch the game and certainly not the design part, so we can talk all we want now Show nested quote +On July 24 2021 04:41 TLN00 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +it actually IS important what, we, the plebs, have to say/how we feel abt the game.
we already see many decent players/streamers switching to protoss and unrivalled number of upcomers from this race, while terrans and zergs just cry their hearts out.
if unchecked, this trend will continue and speed up, leaving just masochists and topnotch top 3-5pros from terrans/zerg in their respective races.
at the end of the day, we play the game coz we (used to) love it, but if the end experience is that u have to face protosses one after another with their relatively random, yet so easy to execute and powerful builds, i am not sure..
it s already happening, even at very top, DH qualifiers are over 60% tototal of protosses.. and how long is this patch? give it another half a year or so and i predict 80%+ with virtually all new players coming to the game just choosing protoss.
why? because nobody likes to lose, and even more so, if it is by trying (much) harder than the opponent and see him/her laughing hard while he literally uses 1/3 of the effort.. and thanks to this thread also, it is becoming more and more common knowledge, that the race is just broken.
hence i suggest its about time: we all switch to protoss , or just quit the game coz it is just far too much not fair hence no fun : ( You new to this game? Because Blizzard decided that SC2 is no longer an updated game, so we can talk all we want. They won't patch anything. Even getting maps on the ladder takes ages. And certainly not now, when Blizzard is facing big lawsuit
Indeed. But hey we’ve been talking for a decade about theorycraft without Blizz implementing much of it, so why stop now?!
I mean the muta is a great example, not the only one mind. There’s been a clear power creep in terms of harassment units every expansion, from medivacs boosting to DTs blinking, to the proxy oracle meta etc.
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On July 24 2021 07:10 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2021 06:48 deacon.frost wrote:On July 24 2021 04:50 WombaT wrote:On July 24 2021 03:52 deacon.frost wrote:On July 24 2021 03:16 Syn Harvest wrote:+ Show Spoiler +It is not balance it is design. The way Protoss is designed makes it forgiving. Thus in the lower leagues Protoss is by far the easiest race to play. However at the top the T and Z players do not make mistakes and when that happens T and Z are better races than P but you don't get to that point until you reach the elite level prop players. Since this is the case Blizzard continued these weird bandaid patches to try and make Protoss competitive at the top level and now we have a broken patch with a bunch of super abusive builds for P to use that is decimating all but the very top players. So imo what this comes down to is the fact that this can't be patched away. The design of P is poor and if it isn't addressed the game will continue to be this way until it is replaced by another RTS. THe core design of both Zerg and Protoss are poor compared to the Terran. And Terran isn't exactly the best either but compared to the PZ ... So yeah, nothing will be changed or balanced. Mostly because Blizzard needs to balance their own company rather than SC2 which is in the notouch policy. Terran is a big, big part of the problem given how they’re designed, bio pumps out tons of damage, is extremely microable and thus tools have to be given to the other races to get around this. Having a race be the glass cannon/high ranged DPs can absolutely work, Nelves fulfil this nicely in WC3 but there’s way more melee micro and other factors at play in that game, units are less plentiful and more tanky too. It’s a reason say, charge guarantees a hit because without it good Ts will kite for days That's why I said that Terran isn't exacly the best design overall, but in this game it's the best designed race. And by far. My favorite example is Mutalisk. BEcause of mutalisk there were patches on Terrans(e.g. Thor, mines), Zerg(spore), Protoss(multiple patching of phoenix). They could have changed the mutalisk But nooooooooo, let's focus on bending everything else around Mutalisk. And that's just one example. And if you look at the history of the game it's even more insane - back at wol you were able to defend mutalisks with blink stalkers and storm while you were transitioning into phonix. This ended with their regen in HotS. After all the patching and bending in WoL they decided to do THAT. Well, anyway, Blizzard won't touch the game and certainly not the design part, so we can talk all we want now On July 24 2021 04:41 TLN00 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +it actually IS important what, we, the plebs, have to say/how we feel abt the game.
we already see many decent players/streamers switching to protoss and unrivalled number of upcomers from this race, while terrans and zergs just cry their hearts out.
if unchecked, this trend will continue and speed up, leaving just masochists and topnotch top 3-5pros from terrans/zerg in their respective races.
at the end of the day, we play the game coz we (used to) love it, but if the end experience is that u have to face protosses one after another with their relatively random, yet so easy to execute and powerful builds, i am not sure..
it s already happening, even at very top, DH qualifiers are over 60% tototal of protosses.. and how long is this patch? give it another half a year or so and i predict 80%+ with virtually all new players coming to the game just choosing protoss.
why? because nobody likes to lose, and even more so, if it is by trying (much) harder than the opponent and see him/her laughing hard while he literally uses 1/3 of the effort.. and thanks to this thread also, it is becoming more and more common knowledge, that the race is just broken.
hence i suggest its about time: we all switch to protoss , or just quit the game coz it is just far too much not fair hence no fun : ( You new to this game? Because Blizzard decided that SC2 is no longer an updated game, so we can talk all we want. They won't patch anything. Even getting maps on the ladder takes ages. And certainly not now, when Blizzard is facing big lawsuit Indeed. But hey we’ve been talking for a decade about theorycraft without Blizz implementing much of it, so why stop now?! I mean the muta is a great example, not the only one mind. There’s been a clear power creep in terms of harassment units every expansion, from medivacs boosting to DTs blinking, to the proxy oracle meta etc.
Maybe someone should tell Blizz SC2 is a woman, that should get someone to touch it.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 24 2021 07:10 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2021 06:48 deacon.frost wrote:On July 24 2021 04:50 WombaT wrote:On July 24 2021 03:52 deacon.frost wrote:On July 24 2021 03:16 Syn Harvest wrote:+ Show Spoiler +It is not balance it is design. The way Protoss is designed makes it forgiving. Thus in the lower leagues Protoss is by far the easiest race to play. However at the top the T and Z players do not make mistakes and when that happens T and Z are better races than P but you don't get to that point until you reach the elite level prop players. Since this is the case Blizzard continued these weird bandaid patches to try and make Protoss competitive at the top level and now we have a broken patch with a bunch of super abusive builds for P to use that is decimating all but the very top players. So imo what this comes down to is the fact that this can't be patched away. The design of P is poor and if it isn't addressed the game will continue to be this way until it is replaced by another RTS. THe core design of both Zerg and Protoss are poor compared to the Terran. And Terran isn't exactly the best either but compared to the PZ ... So yeah, nothing will be changed or balanced. Mostly because Blizzard needs to balance their own company rather than SC2 which is in the notouch policy. Terran is a big, big part of the problem given how they’re designed, bio pumps out tons of damage, is extremely microable and thus tools have to be given to the other races to get around this. Having a race be the glass cannon/high ranged DPs can absolutely work, Nelves fulfil this nicely in WC3 but there’s way more melee micro and other factors at play in that game, units are less plentiful and more tanky too. It’s a reason say, charge guarantees a hit because without it good Ts will kite for days That's why I said that Terran isn't exacly the best design overall, but in this game it's the best designed race. And by far. My favorite example is Mutalisk. BEcause of mutalisk there were patches on Terrans(e.g. Thor, mines), Zerg(spore), Protoss(multiple patching of phoenix). They could have changed the mutalisk But nooooooooo, let's focus on bending everything else around Mutalisk. And that's just one example. And if you look at the history of the game it's even more insane - back at wol you were able to defend mutalisks with blink stalkers and storm while you were transitioning into phonix. This ended with their regen in HotS. After all the patching and bending in WoL they decided to do THAT. Well, anyway, Blizzard won't touch the game and certainly not the design part, so we can talk all we want now On July 24 2021 04:41 TLN00 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +it actually IS important what, we, the plebs, have to say/how we feel abt the game.
we already see many decent players/streamers switching to protoss and unrivalled number of upcomers from this race, while terrans and zergs just cry their hearts out.
if unchecked, this trend will continue and speed up, leaving just masochists and topnotch top 3-5pros from terrans/zerg in their respective races.
at the end of the day, we play the game coz we (used to) love it, but if the end experience is that u have to face protosses one after another with their relatively random, yet so easy to execute and powerful builds, i am not sure..
it s already happening, even at very top, DH qualifiers are over 60% tototal of protosses.. and how long is this patch? give it another half a year or so and i predict 80%+ with virtually all new players coming to the game just choosing protoss.
why? because nobody likes to lose, and even more so, if it is by trying (much) harder than the opponent and see him/her laughing hard while he literally uses 1/3 of the effort.. and thanks to this thread also, it is becoming more and more common knowledge, that the race is just broken.
hence i suggest its about time: we all switch to protoss , or just quit the game coz it is just far too much not fair hence no fun : ( You new to this game? Because Blizzard decided that SC2 is no longer an updated game, so we can talk all we want. They won't patch anything. Even getting maps on the ladder takes ages. And certainly not now, when Blizzard is facing big lawsuit Indeed. But hey we’ve been talking for a decade about theorycraft without Blizz implementing much of it, so why stop now?! I mean the muta is a great example, not the only one mind. There’s been a clear power creep in terms of harassment units every expansion, from medivacs boosting to DTs blinking, to the proxy oracle meta etc.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I am not against the talks. I like to theorycraft I just don't want people to get hyped that Blizzard will patch it
On July 24 2021 07:21 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2021 07:10 WombaT wrote:On July 24 2021 06:48 deacon.frost wrote:On July 24 2021 04:50 WombaT wrote:On July 24 2021 03:52 deacon.frost wrote:On July 24 2021 03:16 Syn Harvest wrote:+ Show Spoiler +It is not balance it is design. The way Protoss is designed makes it forgiving. Thus in the lower leagues Protoss is by far the easiest race to play. However at the top the T and Z players do not make mistakes and when that happens T and Z are better races than P but you don't get to that point until you reach the elite level prop players. Since this is the case Blizzard continued these weird bandaid patches to try and make Protoss competitive at the top level and now we have a broken patch with a bunch of super abusive builds for P to use that is decimating all but the very top players. So imo what this comes down to is the fact that this can't be patched away. The design of P is poor and if it isn't addressed the game will continue to be this way until it is replaced by another RTS. THe core design of both Zerg and Protoss are poor compared to the Terran. And Terran isn't exactly the best either but compared to the PZ ... So yeah, nothing will be changed or balanced. Mostly because Blizzard needs to balance their own company rather than SC2 which is in the notouch policy. Terran is a big, big part of the problem given how they’re designed, bio pumps out tons of damage, is extremely microable and thus tools have to be given to the other races to get around this. Having a race be the glass cannon/high ranged DPs can absolutely work, Nelves fulfil this nicely in WC3 but there’s way more melee micro and other factors at play in that game, units are less plentiful and more tanky too. It’s a reason say, charge guarantees a hit because without it good Ts will kite for days That's why I said that Terran isn't exacly the best design overall, but in this game it's the best designed race. And by far. My favorite example is Mutalisk. BEcause of mutalisk there were patches on Terrans(e.g. Thor, mines), Zerg(spore), Protoss(multiple patching of phoenix). They could have changed the mutalisk But nooooooooo, let's focus on bending everything else around Mutalisk. And that's just one example. And if you look at the history of the game it's even more insane - back at wol you were able to defend mutalisks with blink stalkers and storm while you were transitioning into phonix. This ended with their regen in HotS. After all the patching and bending in WoL they decided to do THAT. Well, anyway, Blizzard won't touch the game and certainly not the design part, so we can talk all we want now On July 24 2021 04:41 TLN00 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +it actually IS important what, we, the plebs, have to say/how we feel abt the game.
we already see many decent players/streamers switching to protoss and unrivalled number of upcomers from this race, while terrans and zergs just cry their hearts out.
if unchecked, this trend will continue and speed up, leaving just masochists and topnotch top 3-5pros from terrans/zerg in their respective races.
at the end of the day, we play the game coz we (used to) love it, but if the end experience is that u have to face protosses one after another with their relatively random, yet so easy to execute and powerful builds, i am not sure..
it s already happening, even at very top, DH qualifiers are over 60% tototal of protosses.. and how long is this patch? give it another half a year or so and i predict 80%+ with virtually all new players coming to the game just choosing protoss.
why? because nobody likes to lose, and even more so, if it is by trying (much) harder than the opponent and see him/her laughing hard while he literally uses 1/3 of the effort.. and thanks to this thread also, it is becoming more and more common knowledge, that the race is just broken.
hence i suggest its about time: we all switch to protoss , or just quit the game coz it is just far too much not fair hence no fun : ( You new to this game? Because Blizzard decided that SC2 is no longer an updated game, so we can talk all we want. They won't patch anything. Even getting maps on the ladder takes ages. And certainly not now, when Blizzard is facing big lawsuit Indeed. But hey we’ve been talking for a decade about theorycraft without Blizz implementing much of it, so why stop now?! I mean the muta is a great example, not the only one mind. There’s been a clear power creep in terms of harassment units every expansion, from medivacs boosting to DTs blinking, to the proxy oracle meta etc. Maybe someone should tell Blizz SC2 is a woman, that should get someone to touch it.
Yeah, I wanted to write something like that, but was too afraid to write it
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Northern Ireland25087 Posts
On July 24 2021 07:21 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2021 07:10 WombaT wrote:On July 24 2021 06:48 deacon.frost wrote:On July 24 2021 04:50 WombaT wrote:On July 24 2021 03:52 deacon.frost wrote:On July 24 2021 03:16 Syn Harvest wrote:+ Show Spoiler +It is not balance it is design. The way Protoss is designed makes it forgiving. Thus in the lower leagues Protoss is by far the easiest race to play. However at the top the T and Z players do not make mistakes and when that happens T and Z are better races than P but you don't get to that point until you reach the elite level prop players. Since this is the case Blizzard continued these weird bandaid patches to try and make Protoss competitive at the top level and now we have a broken patch with a bunch of super abusive builds for P to use that is decimating all but the very top players. So imo what this comes down to is the fact that this can't be patched away. The design of P is poor and if it isn't addressed the game will continue to be this way until it is replaced by another RTS. THe core design of both Zerg and Protoss are poor compared to the Terran. And Terran isn't exactly the best either but compared to the PZ ... So yeah, nothing will be changed or balanced. Mostly because Blizzard needs to balance their own company rather than SC2 which is in the notouch policy. Terran is a big, big part of the problem given how they’re designed, bio pumps out tons of damage, is extremely microable and thus tools have to be given to the other races to get around this. Having a race be the glass cannon/high ranged DPs can absolutely work, Nelves fulfil this nicely in WC3 but there’s way more melee micro and other factors at play in that game, units are less plentiful and more tanky too. It’s a reason say, charge guarantees a hit because without it good Ts will kite for days That's why I said that Terran isn't exacly the best design overall, but in this game it's the best designed race. And by far. My favorite example is Mutalisk. BEcause of mutalisk there were patches on Terrans(e.g. Thor, mines), Zerg(spore), Protoss(multiple patching of phoenix). They could have changed the mutalisk But nooooooooo, let's focus on bending everything else around Mutalisk. And that's just one example. And if you look at the history of the game it's even more insane - back at wol you were able to defend mutalisks with blink stalkers and storm while you were transitioning into phonix. This ended with their regen in HotS. After all the patching and bending in WoL they decided to do THAT. Well, anyway, Blizzard won't touch the game and certainly not the design part, so we can talk all we want now On July 24 2021 04:41 TLN00 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +it actually IS important what, we, the plebs, have to say/how we feel abt the game.
we already see many decent players/streamers switching to protoss and unrivalled number of upcomers from this race, while terrans and zergs just cry their hearts out.
if unchecked, this trend will continue and speed up, leaving just masochists and topnotch top 3-5pros from terrans/zerg in their respective races.
at the end of the day, we play the game coz we (used to) love it, but if the end experience is that u have to face protosses one after another with their relatively random, yet so easy to execute and powerful builds, i am not sure..
it s already happening, even at very top, DH qualifiers are over 60% tototal of protosses.. and how long is this patch? give it another half a year or so and i predict 80%+ with virtually all new players coming to the game just choosing protoss.
why? because nobody likes to lose, and even more so, if it is by trying (much) harder than the opponent and see him/her laughing hard while he literally uses 1/3 of the effort.. and thanks to this thread also, it is becoming more and more common knowledge, that the race is just broken.
hence i suggest its about time: we all switch to protoss , or just quit the game coz it is just far too much not fair hence no fun : ( You new to this game? Because Blizzard decided that SC2 is no longer an updated game, so we can talk all we want. They won't patch anything. Even getting maps on the ladder takes ages. And certainly not now, when Blizzard is facing big lawsuit Indeed. But hey we’ve been talking for a decade about theorycraft without Blizz implementing much of it, so why stop now?! I mean the muta is a great example, not the only one mind. There’s been a clear power creep in terms of harassment units every expansion, from medivacs boosting to DTs blinking, to the proxy oracle meta etc. Maybe someone should tell Blizz SC2 is a woman, that should get someone to touch it.
Big oof but I must say I laughed!
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8748 Posts
On July 24 2021 06:35 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2021 05:45 Andi_Goldberger wrote:On July 24 2021 01:46 TLN00 wrote:
unfortunately the game in its current patch till abt 6k mmr is sth like: Protoss mmr= Terran/Zerg mmr +(500-800) for the same skill.
feels bad that my terran and protoss mmr are the same, looks like I am an absolute trash protoss I mean I’d assume from my experiences and just general deduction that Protoss just won’t suit everyone and a blanket rule like ‘Protoss MMR is +500 from other races’ is just silly. If you don’t like doing all sorts of wonky all-ins, or your strengths are playing defensively or in mechanics you kind of miss out on a lot that makes Protoss so potent/aggravating to face.
yeah.. for another perspective, i've quit and come back to the game so many times over the years to play my little 10 hours a week or whatever, and im getting around the same rank as i always get. so from my perspective, nothing has changed. i'm not randomly +500 mmr this time around. in fact if anything my absolute rank has been relatively lower, mostly from being unable to win PvZ's, which is like a 25% win rate for me
i really think it has to do with the particular builds that all these EU protoss ladder players are playing.
first of all, it's extremely rare that any of them are unaware of how every other protoss is playing PvT or PvZ. normally if someone just plays ladder, they get to see how other players play the mirror matchup, but they have no idea what players of the same race are doing against the other races. absolutely not the case on the EU ladder today. there's a protoss hivemind trickling down from the pros
which normally that's fine. i think zergs and terrans are also quite aware of what pros are doing. the problem is when the builds that the pros use (which the EU GM hivemind copies) happen to be very good ladder builds as well. that's where the issue lies.
both matchups (pvz, pvt) are in a good spot AND protoss has the strongest ladder builds AND current pro builds happen to be very good ladder builds (whereas what zerg and terran pros do against these protoss builds are not very good ladder builds for lower skill players). so that's a problem.
i think any protoss going their on way is not going to see their rank effortlessly rise higher than it's ever been in years past. and any zerg or terran who for years has comfortably been copying pros as a source for standard builds to play is now being let down. better to try some unorthodox play or just play the way you want to and forget about your MMR goals
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Northern Ireland25087 Posts
On July 24 2021 08:11 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2021 06:35 WombaT wrote:On July 24 2021 05:45 Andi_Goldberger wrote:On July 24 2021 01:46 TLN00 wrote:
unfortunately the game in its current patch till abt 6k mmr is sth like: Protoss mmr= Terran/Zerg mmr +(500-800) for the same skill.
feels bad that my terran and protoss mmr are the same, looks like I am an absolute trash protoss I mean I’d assume from my experiences and just general deduction that Protoss just won’t suit everyone and a blanket rule like ‘Protoss MMR is +500 from other races’ is just silly. If you don’t like doing all sorts of wonky all-ins, or your strengths are playing defensively or in mechanics you kind of miss out on a lot that makes Protoss so potent/aggravating to face. yeah.. for another perspective, i've quit and come back to the game so many times over the years to play my little 10 hours a week or whatever, and im getting around the same rank as i always get. so from my perspective, nothing has changed. i'm not randomly +500 mmr this time around. in fact if anything my absolute rank has been relatively lower, mostly from being unable to win PvZ's, which is like a 25% win rate for me i really think it has to do with the particular builds that all these EU protoss ladder players are playing. first of all, it's extremely rare that any of them are unaware of how every other protoss is playing PvT or PvZ. normally if someone just plays ladder, they get to see how other players play the mirror matchup, but they have no idea what players of the same race are doing against the other races. absolutely not the case on the EU ladder today. there's a protoss hivemind trickling down from the pros which normally that's fine. i think zergs and terrans are also quite aware of what pros are doing. the problem is when the builds that the pros use (which the EU GM hivemind copies) happen to be very good ladder builds as well. that's where the issue lies. both matchups (pvz, pvt) are in a good spot AND protoss has the strongest ladder builds AND current pro builds happen to be very good ladder builds (whereas what zerg and terran pros do against these protoss builds are not very good ladder builds for lower skill players). so that's a problem. i think any protoss going their on way is not going to see their rank effortlessly rise higher than it's ever been in years past. and any zerg or terran who for years has comfortably been copying pros as a source for standard builds to play is now being let down. better to try some unorthodox play or just play the way you want to and forget about your MMR goals
Interesting perspective and you’re a much better player than I be, so it probably extends further up the MMR chain than I thought!
Yeah there’s certainly a difference in the power of copying builds too, if you’re copying a Terran/Zerg build that you catch in Code S or a Dreamhack Masters it’s invariably some kind of greedy opener, tailored to dovetail nicely against an opponent who is also being greedy, and which requires a lot of adjustment based on scouting that the exponents can just do, but isn’t immediately obvious to a lower level player just copying the opening.
Back in the olden days I tried to play a real passive, harass-based PvZ a la Liquid HerO, had some fun games even in losses and when I pulled it off it felt great, but ultimately I was rocking a 30% PvZ at a time I had a 70% PvT.
Wasn’t especially happy with that win rate, so I spent a few days getting a (reasonably) optimised version of Parting’s soul train that I just did blindly for the most part and my win rate absolutely shot up to like 60%+
Didn’t really feel good, I wasn’t any better at the game, nor had I crafted it myself I was just copying a build and doing it. And yeah this is where the hive mind kicks in.
And I don’t think much has changed in the last 8 years or so, if anything there’s probably more good blind builds you can learn and hit a pretty high MMR if you execute them properly.
Terran don’t have a huge amount that aren’t hugely risky and scoutable and Zergs have even less again.
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People seem to be confusing popularity with imbalance.
Just because there are more Protoss in GM does not indicate Protoss is too good. It simply means that Protoss is currently more popular among high-rated players. There are various plausible explanations for this, not all of which involve imbalance. For example, people might just simply enjoy playing the Protoss matchups more on ladder right now.
Protoss might be too good, but GM population statistics is the wrong data to analyze to answer that question. It would be better to look at matchup winrates, map winrates, tournament results, etc.
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Protoss is a harder race than Terran or Zerg so their players have to practice harder. Terran and Zerg pros are mostly hanging around at beaches in tank tops while Protoss players grind the ladder and then when they occassionally start up a ladder game they obviously will face Protoss
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since there are many more toss defenders than i expected, let me ask all of you 3 simple questions, which in my eyes, would make toss quite a bit harder to control, and yet not at all interact with its overall potential strenght.
1, why is zealot charge autocasted? (sending 8 zealot runby on a rally while big fight is potentially devastating, with 0 attention required)
2, why HTs have attack outside of storm (psi blast)? (hence if toss Amove whole army, they will NOT suicide like vipers/infestors will do and require a lot less babysitting)
3, why shield batteries are autocasted? (hence all the proxy AIs are so damn easy compared to T/Z holding it. just focusing on making 4-5strong units and moving them back and forth with instant healing; also: toss has a lot more time to react to runbys if there is only literally 1 unit holding the choke or build gazillions of batteries w cannons on bases in lategame having to spend 0 attention to multitask on 2+ fronts like T or Z have to all the time. (for all those claiming toss units are generally slowest- ok- make batteries within some short range of nexus be autocasted, but why they can be used literally anywhere on the map like that?)
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On July 24 2021 21:32 TLN00 wrote:
since there are many more toss defenders than i expected, let me ask all of you 3 simple questions, which in my eyes, would make toss quite a bit harder to control, and yet not at all interact with its overall potential strenght.
1, why is zealot charge autocasted? (sending 8 zealot runby on a rally while big fight is potentially devastating, with 0 attention required)
2, why HTs have attack outside of storm (psi blast)? (hence if toss Amove whole army, they will NOT suicide like vipers/infestors will do and require a lot less babysitting)
3, why shield batteries are autocasted? (hence all the proxy AIs are so damn easy compared to T/Z holding it. just focusing on making 4-5strong units and moving them back and forth with instant healing; also: toss has a lot more time to react to runbys if there is only literally 1 unit holding the choke or build gazillions of batteries w cannons on bases in lategame having to spend 0 attention to multitask on 2+ fronts like T or Z have to all the time. (for all those claiming toss units are generally slowest- ok- make batteries within some short range of nexus be autocasted, but why they can be used literally anywhere on the map like that?)
A good terran player will abuse a protoss whos zealots just charge off at every chance they get so protoss actually has to babysit them more than one would think so I am fine with them being autocasted.
Also I think a good protoss will micro a shield battery to recharge a better unit so I would rather they changed the ammount of energy it starts with or the cost of it instead to lower the effectiveness.
The one I really agree with is high templar having an auto attack now. That is just blatant handholding for a race whos army is already easier to micro than the others.
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I don't think autocast charge or attacking HT are a real problem, it's green shield battery and recall.
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Yearly reminder that there is still no counterplay to DT blink in lategame, no counterplay in a RTS SEND HELP
User was warned for this post
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I remember 2 years ago when Puck (now Nina) was in PvZ purgatory (or PvZ hell, depending on the results of the games) - back then Zerg was the overwhelmingly popular race.
Sadly, I don't remember a time when Terran was the most seen race - but I don't claim to be an expert.
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On July 25 2021 02:36 Mlord wrote:
Yearly reminder that there is still no counterplay to DT blink in lategame, no counterplay in a RTS SEND HELP
put a liberator on top of your planetary and if u wanna go crazy, a widowmine or 2. Maru does it all the time.
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I believe there is a simple explanation for this. We all know Protoss is the easiest race to play mechanically. So more players have chosen Protoss as their main race and have refined their play over the years. So, of course more Protoss players will eventually reach GM.
However SC2 is balanced around the very top of the pro scene, which is a higher level of play than top GM. At the very highest level, the game seems to be balanced.
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Mexico2170 Posts
On July 24 2021 08:32 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2021 08:11 NonY wrote:On July 24 2021 06:35 WombaT wrote:On July 24 2021 05:45 Andi_Goldberger wrote:On July 24 2021 01:46 TLN00 wrote:
unfortunately the game in its current patch till abt 6k mmr is sth like: Protoss mmr= Terran/Zerg mmr +(500-800) for the same skill.
feels bad that my terran and protoss mmr are the same, looks like I am an absolute trash protoss I mean I’d assume from my experiences and just general deduction that Protoss just won’t suit everyone and a blanket rule like ‘Protoss MMR is +500 from other races’ is just silly. If you don’t like doing all sorts of wonky all-ins, or your strengths are playing defensively or in mechanics you kind of miss out on a lot that makes Protoss so potent/aggravating to face. yeah.. for another perspective, i've quit and come back to the game so many times over the years to play my little 10 hours a week or whatever, and im getting around the same rank as i always get. so from my perspective, nothing has changed. i'm not randomly +500 mmr this time around. in fact if anything my absolute rank has been relatively lower, mostly from being unable to win PvZ's, which is like a 25% win rate for me i really think it has to do with the particular builds that all these EU protoss ladder players are playing. first of all, it's extremely rare that any of them are unaware of how every other protoss is playing PvT or PvZ. normally if someone just plays ladder, they get to see how other players play the mirror matchup, but they have no idea what players of the same race are doing against the other races. absolutely not the case on the EU ladder today. there's a protoss hivemind trickling down from the pros which normally that's fine. i think zergs and terrans are also quite aware of what pros are doing. the problem is when the builds that the pros use (which the EU GM hivemind copies) happen to be very good ladder builds as well. that's where the issue lies. both matchups (pvz, pvt) are in a good spot AND protoss has the strongest ladder builds AND current pro builds happen to be very good ladder builds (whereas what zerg and terran pros do against these protoss builds are not very good ladder builds for lower skill players). so that's a problem. i think any protoss going their on way is not going to see their rank effortlessly rise higher than it's ever been in years past. and any zerg or terran who for years has comfortably been copying pros as a source for standard builds to play is now being let down. better to try some unorthodox play or just play the way you want to and forget about your MMR goals Interesting perspective and you’re a much better player than I be, so it probably extends further up the MMR chain than I thought! Yeah there’s certainly a difference in the power of copying builds too, if you’re copying a Terran/Zerg build that you catch in Code S or a Dreamhack Masters it’s invariably some kind of greedy opener, tailored to dovetail nicely against an opponent who is also being greedy, and which requires a lot of adjustment based on scouting that the exponents can just do, but isn’t immediately obvious to a lower level player just copying the opening. Back in the olden days I tried to play a real passive, harass-based PvZ a la Liquid HerO, had some fun games even in losses and when I pulled it off it felt great, but ultimately I was rocking a 30% PvZ at a time I had a 70% PvT. Wasn’t especially happy with that win rate, so I spent a few days getting a (reasonably) optimised version of Parting’s soul train that I just did blindly for the most part and my win rate absolutely shot up to like 60%+ Didn’t really feel good, I wasn’t any better at the game, nor had I crafted it myself I was just copying a build and doing it. And yeah this is where the hive mind kicks in. And I don’t think much has changed in the last 8 years or so, if anything there’s probably more good blind builds you can learn and hit a pretty high MMR if you execute them properly. Terran don’t have a huge amount that aren’t hugely risky and scoutable and Zergs have even less again.
I think this might be it. Some of the strategies Protoss Pro use are very good ladder strats.
Particularly cheesy and agressive builds.
Remember that at the end of the day ladder is Best of 1, so strategies that get you fast and cheap wins will thrive (like cheese). Protoss is good at this kind of things, and so players adop it easier.
Compare that to terran or zerg pros that, altough agressive, generally are more macro oriented. Protoss early game is strong, so terran has to rely on mine drops and push the protoss third as it's going up. That's much more abstract than simply making proxy VR.
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France12793 Posts
On July 25 2021 11:16 coolguy_704 wrote:
I believe there is a simple explanation for this. We all know Protoss is the easiest race to play mechanically. So more players have chosen Protoss as their main race and have refined their play over the years. So, of course more Protoss players will eventually reach GM.
However SC2 is balanced around the very top of the pro scene, which is a higher level of play than top GM. At the very highest level, the game seems to be balanced.
Well this should have happened sooner then.
But it’s a mix of things, Protoss being easier allowed a lot of players to reach masters or GM more easily than with other races, but having that many at the top is probably a combination of the latest patch making them too strong / fun.
Winning is fun so the fun you will have is not solely dependent on how fun is your race intrinsically, but also how you fare against others.
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On July 25 2021 11:16 coolguy_704 wrote:
I believe there is a simple explanation for this. We all know Protoss is the easiest race to play mechanically. So more players have chosen Protoss as their main race and have refined their play over the years. So, of course more Protoss players will eventually reach GM.
However SC2 is balanced around the very top of the pro scene, which is a higher level of play than top GM. At the very highest level, the game seems to be balanced.
You're so close except the players in the top of GM are the pros. You have to differentiate between ladder and tournaments and even then it gets sticky because Trap has been winning a lot recently. You have to curate it to the biggest tournaments like Season finals (where no protoss were in the round of 8) or GSL where Zerg has been dominating. Overall its a mixed bag and queen walks/void rays are becoming ironed out so I think we should wait a month or two to see who really comes out on top.
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EPT
