TLMC #15: Finalists and Voting Phase! - Page 4

On July 07 2021 03:51 [Phantom] wrote:


1.-Not malevolence, but certainly biased, probably subconciously. Those free scouting spots where created years ago when it was very hard to scout for zerg, and very easy to deny scouting. Protoss specially had lots of disgusting cheeses and all-in early options that often looked similar if you didn't scout everything. Since then most protoss early all-ins were nerfed into the ground and delayed, and scouting has been made easier for zerg as they increased the baseline movement speed of the overlords. On top of that map layouts, improved creep spread and the different lotv eco have made it easier for zerg to react to pushes. We have had 3 years of zerg dominance before 2021, and I believe in part decisions in the layout of the maps like this contributed a small ammount to that. Why should zergs get a spot made specifically just for them?

Specially vs Protoss this gives them in plenty of maps full view of the wall, and on some even view of the gas. This makes it very easy for zerg to know when and how to atack if they are planing an all-in, of which they have plenty of options. To the point where now the roles have been reversed and Protoss is the one with trouble scuting early game, relying mostly on an adept to scout. If the adept is killed then you're blind. Other scouting methods have their costs, hallucination tkaes away energy, so if you scout an all-in and they are already coming you don't have forcefields, also you might need a sentry that you might not have. Scans cost mules. Overlords are something you are making anyway, why should you get free early game scout?

We have had maps where there are no insivible pillars outside the base and we see zerg still able to scout, just not for free and for a shorter period of time, just like the other races. Proving that they don't really need this advantage, and if removed it could open other openings for Terran and Protoss that are not viable in those maps.



Yeah sorry, I expressed myself incorrectly. Didn't mean to say that every map has that, I'm just dissapointed that at least half the maps do, I thought we could move on from that. Like I said I believe that invisible pilar to be a remnant of the past, that map makers have continued to put there without realizing it's not necessary anymore and it's just giving the zergs a small, but nedless, advantage.

For the guy saying that ramps and depots would be unfair, that's not the same situation, as depots were made specifically by the designers of the game to be able to do that, and ramps were also created with that combination in mind. The very first map you used to play, Xel'Naga caverns, had the ramp in that configuration. Whereas the overlord invisible spot was made specifically by map makers later on (for valid reasons at the time, just not anymore).

Appart from that, I like the maps. I think they are a little bit more standard than I thought, even the weird ones. One of this maps is already played in the GSL right? Why is that? Though I must say I like it.

I only have reservations about Treadmill. I like the concept of the slow and fast zones, I just think it needs a little bit of work. I haven't had the chance to play it, but I can see Terran being very powerful in the base with slow zones on the ramp. How are you supposed to atack there if when the terran has the high ground, slow zones on the ramps and tanks or libs? As for the speed zones, their placement still makes the route to get to the enemy side of the map very slow as the path is curved, so while it will be used as an alternative atack zone/harass zone, I don't feel like the speed zones will meaningfully help there.

On July 06 2021 12:33 -NegativeZero- wrote:
Can you list the map sizes in the OP so we can get a sense of scale without having to manually open each one in the editor?

On July 08 2021 09:13 NeuralNet88 wrote:
I think the finalists maps are a mixed bag. Ideally the maps I would have included would have been:

Standard
Containment
White Sands
Algor Mortis

Macro
Gresvan
Hardwire
Titan Cosmic

Rush
Electric Avenue

Freestyle
Hexmaster
Xibalba

I do think Fountainhead is a good map from what I've seen thus far, but the rest of the macro category is a massive disappointment, as is the freestyle category. Tidehunter has grown on me, but Bulwark & Undercity are mediocre maps at best. Still very disappointed that Hardwire was not included as a finalist. Has great ladder and tournament map written all over it.

Out of the finalists I hope that Oblivion, Aqueducts, Curious Minds, Illiad, Fountainhead, Treadmill & Tidehunter are future ladder maps. Maybe Jacaranda as well, but I'm still not 100 % sure on that one.

On July 08 2021 23:36 Callynn wrote:
I think this cannot be overstated. Also for new mapmakers, having to abide by all these (hidden) rules makes it a very niche and delicate process to get into, and leaving very little room for real advancements.

On July 08 2021 01:36 KillerSmile wrote:


Hey, great that you clarified your position properly so we can have a discussion. Calling it "shameless favoring of one race" to me kinda implies that mapmakers are malevolent, but apparently you meant to imply mapmakers are ignorant, both of which I take offense with obviously, hence the not so nice response on my part.

I'll try to give you my point of view so we can get past that. What you say about the PvZ matchup and how it developed certainly is correct to some degree and even in TvZ scouting an early moveout for free does not seem fair.

For Overlord Pillars we have like 4 basic options:

1: Lightshade: it corners the far side of the nat choke and sees every moveout
2: Deathaura: further out but also on the main attack path
3: Oxide/Jagannatha: the "fake" pillar on the close side of the nat entrance that can be seen from the main, but doesn't see every moveout
4: Triton: Same side as Lightshade, but does not see a moveout

If you're complaining about #1 I'm actually with you. I think the overlord should have to move to scout, so I personally like #4 generally, but if the specific map asks for other solutions I'll use those, because different maps should be allowed to have different types of pillars.

You compare Overlords to other types of scouting units and say that they are "basically free" because Zerg has to make them anyway, but you conveniently leave out that why Zerg has to make them anyway. Losing the Overlord and getting supplyblocked is super debilitating. No mapmaker wants that to decide a game on their map. Not in the GSL and not in gold league. It feels horrible to be punished for scouting, something that you want to teach the player is a good thing to do in a strategy game. Obviously I don't have to teach that to pro players, but even they hate it when their build gets completely screwed because they had no place to retreat their flying supply depot to.

For you this might be a giant balance discussion and you might call my arguments bullshit and say that the gold leaguers just have to get good, or that this is all a sham and a conspiracy and that the mapmakers have all been duped by Big Zerg or whatever into thinking that the convenience of an overlord spot is necessary when it's only there to give the pro zergs an unfair advantage. Mapmakers are desigers of competitve multiplayer levels. We try to make them nice to play on. Losing the Overlord doesn't feel nice. Should we sometimes put more thought into which type of pillar to use? Yeah ofc. Should we just get rid of them all on every map? Fuck no.

Ramp orientation always requiring to be diagona

Ramp orientation always requiring to be diagonal
What's the reason for this?