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StarWars1
Germany17 Posts
My Take: -I start to like Yamatai. A lot. -I would bet that Aqueducts will go on Ladder no mater the outcome of this TLMC. -Curious Minds is so fancy I want to like it, but i don't think it will play out well. -We will never see the full potential of Treadmill. The short air distance between the mains is just too tempting. -This TLMC will not create more acceptance for multispawn Maps. | ||
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MayOnFire
England47 Posts
My first take: - Aqueducts turned out to be a great and interesting map, definitely my top 1 atm. - Rush maps were decent, with Iliad and Curious Minds living up to my expectations (the game of Lambo vs uThermal!)! (Berlingrad as well, but being a bit too open in some places? It might due to Clem having a bad day.) - other 2p maps didn't have a chance to shine yet, so looking forward to tomorrow (although I liked Sanguinite and Enchanted Isles (not the middle though, as it's hard to contest it and I feel like bases might be too good to camp) ) - 4p maps felt really forced, generally too big and awkward to maneuver, although I liked Tidehunter a bit | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
For example Apotheosis finished second in TLMC7 off of a bunch of macro games (and maybe a tank push or two), but was an awfully poorly balanced map overall. | ||
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Pedro Israel
1 Post
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dspnebula
37 Posts
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Legan
Finland577 Posts
On July 07 2021 22:12 dspnebula wrote: Will we get these new maps in the upcoming season? Probably not. There is only a week after the voting and tournament ends before next season starts. That week is meant for iteration so that map makers can fix any issues before map is given to ESL/Blizzard. Usually the map requires some QA from Blizzard and there isn't really time for it now. However newest maps in ladder had very little QA done to them. So it could be possible that they push some maps to ladder already. There is still maps from the previous contest that could be used. | ||
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scbroodsc2
Canada36 Posts
Example of old map features that are hard to change.
And considering all the other stuff
Map design feels stuck because of all the past years in the same design and also because the game is balanced around that design and making a map stand out would make it instant veto because it doesn't follow the standar rules. I miss special maps with very original and unique neverseen things before (Think of Golden Wall for example, new and neverseen, at first people did not like it, then eventually there were some nice game played and it became fun). Contest like this one should promote original ideas and not copy old ways of doing things. It doesn't mean to redesign the whole game, but making the map a bit stand out of the box, yeah clearly this is a need. | ||
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KillerSmile
Germany94 Posts
On July 07 2021 03:51 [Phantom] wrote: 1.-Not malevolence, but certainly biased, probably subconciously. Those free scouting spots where created years ago when it was very hard to scout for zerg, and very easy to deny scouting. Protoss specially had lots of disgusting cheeses and all-in early options that often looked similar if you didn't scout everything. Since then most protoss early all-ins were nerfed into the ground and delayed, and scouting has been made easier for zerg as they increased the baseline movement speed of the overlords. On top of that map layouts, improved creep spread and the different lotv eco have made it easier for zerg to react to pushes. We have had 3 years of zerg dominance before 2021, and I believe in part decisions in the layout of the maps like this contributed a small ammount to that. Why should zergs get a spot made specifically just for them? Specially vs Protoss this gives them in plenty of maps full view of the wall, and on some even view of the gas. This makes it very easy for zerg to know when and how to atack if they are planing an all-in, of which they have plenty of options. To the point where now the roles have been reversed and Protoss is the one with trouble scuting early game, relying mostly on an adept to scout. If the adept is killed then you're blind. Other scouting methods have their costs, hallucination tkaes away energy, so if you scout an all-in and they are already coming you don't have forcefields, also you might need a sentry that you might not have. Scans cost mules. Overlords are something you are making anyway, why should you get free early game scout? We have had maps where there are no insivible pillars outside the base and we see zerg still able to scout, just not for free and for a shorter period of time, just like the other races. Proving that they don't really need this advantage, and if removed it could open other openings for Terran and Protoss that are not viable in those maps. Yeah sorry, I expressed myself incorrectly. Didn't mean to say that every map has that, I'm just dissapointed that at least half the maps do, I thought we could move on from that. Like I said I believe that invisible pilar to be a remnant of the past, that map makers have continued to put there without realizing it's not necessary anymore and it's just giving the zergs a small, but nedless, advantage. For the guy saying that ramps and depots would be unfair, that's not the same situation, as depots were made specifically by the designers of the game to be able to do that, and ramps were also created with that combination in mind. The very first map you used to play, Xel'Naga caverns, had the ramp in that configuration. Whereas the overlord invisible spot was made specifically by map makers later on (for valid reasons at the time, just not anymore). Appart from that, I like the maps. I think they are a little bit more standard than I thought, even the weird ones. One of this maps is already played in the GSL right? Why is that? Though I must say I like it. I only have reservations about Treadmill. I like the concept of the slow and fast zones, I just think it needs a little bit of work. I haven't had the chance to play it, but I can see Terran being very powerful in the base with slow zones on the ramp. How are you supposed to atack there if when the terran has the high ground, slow zones on the ramps and tanks or libs? As for the speed zones, their placement still makes the route to get to the enemy side of the map very slow as the path is curved, so while it will be used as an alternative atack zone/harass zone, I don't feel like the speed zones will meaningfully help there. Hey, great that you clarified your position properly so we can have a discussion. Calling it "shameless favoring of one race" to me kinda implies that mapmakers are malevolent, but apparently you meant to imply mapmakers are ignorant, both of which I take offense with obviously, hence the not so nice response on my part. I'll try to give you my point of view so we can get past that. What you say about the PvZ matchup and how it developed certainly is correct to some degree and even in TvZ scouting an early moveout for free does not seem fair. For Overlord Pillars we have like 4 basic options: 1: Lightshade: it corners the far side of the nat choke and sees every moveout 2: Deathaura: further out but also on the main attack path 3: Oxide/Jagannatha: the "fake" pillar on the close side of the nat entrance that can be seen from the main, but doesn't see every moveout 4: Triton: Same side as Lightshade, but does not see a moveout If you're complaining about #1 I'm actually with you. I think the overlord should have to move to scout, so I personally like #4 generally, but if the specific map asks for other solutions I'll use those, because different maps should be allowed to have different types of pillars. You compare Overlords to other types of scouting units and say that they are "basically free" because Zerg has to make them anyway, but you conveniently leave out that why Zerg has to make them anyway. Losing the Overlord and getting supplyblocked is super debilitating. No mapmaker wants that to decide a game on their map. Not in the GSL and not in gold league. It feels horrible to be punished for scouting, something that you want to teach the player is a good thing to do in a strategy game. Obviously I don't have to teach that to pro players, but even they hate it when their build gets completely screwed because they had no place to retreat their flying supply depot to. For you this might be a giant balance discussion and you might call my arguments bullshit and say that the gold leaguers just have to get good, or that this is all a sham and a conspiracy and that the mapmakers have all been duped by Big Zerg or whatever into thinking that the convenience of an overlord spot is necessary when it's only there to give the pro zergs an unfair advantage. Mapmakers are desigers of competitve multiplayer levels. We try to make them nice to play on. Losing the Overlord doesn't feel nice. Should we sometimes put more thought into which type of pillar to use? Yeah ofc. Should we just get rid of them all on every map? Fuck no. | ||
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KillerSmile
Germany94 Posts
On July 06 2021 12:33 -NegativeZero- wrote: Can you list the map sizes in the OP so we can get a sense of scale without having to manually open each one in the editor? I second this just so pro players stop calling rush maps big. | ||
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Legan
Finland577 Posts
On July 08 2021 01:36 KillerSmile wrote: Hey, great that you clarified your position properly so we can have a discussion. Calling it "shameless favoring of one race" to me kinda implies that mapmakers are malevolent, but apparently you meant to imply mapmakers are ignorant, both of which I take offense with obviously, hence the not so nice response on my part. I'll try to give you my point of view so we can get past that. What you say about the PvZ matchup and how it developed certainly is correct to some degree and even in TvZ scouting an early moveout for free does not seem fair. For Overlord Pillars we have like 4 basic options: 1: Lightshade: it corners the far side of the nat choke and sees every moveout 2: Deathaura: further out but also on the main attack path 3: Oxide/Jagannatha: the "fake" pillar on the close side of the nat entrance that can be seen from the main, but doesn't see every moveout 4: Triton: Same side as Lightshade, but does not see a moveout If you're complaining about #1 I'm actually with you. I think the overlord should have to move to scout, so I personally like #4 generally, but if the specific map asks for other solutions I'll use those, because different maps should be allowed to have different types of pillars. You compare Overlords to other types of scouting units and say that they are "basically free" because Zerg has to make them anyway, but you conveniently leave out that why Zerg has to make them anyway. Losing the Overlord and getting supplyblocked is super debilitating. No mapmaker wants that to decide a game on their map. Not in the GSL and not in gold league. It feels horrible to be punished for scouting, something that you want to teach the player is a good thing to do in a strategy game. Obviously I don't have to teach that to pro players, but even they hate it when their build gets completely screwed because they had no place to retreat their flying supply depot to. For you this might be a giant balance discussion and you might call my arguments bullshit and say that the gold leaguers just have to get good, or that this is all a sham and a conspiracy and that the mapmakers have all been duped by Big Zerg or whatever into thinking that the convenience of an overlord spot is necessary when it's only there to give the pro zergs an unfair advantage. Mapmakers are desigers of competitve multiplayer levels. We try to make them nice to play on. Losing the Overlord doesn't feel nice. Should we sometimes put more thought into which type of pillar to use? Yeah ofc. Should we just get rid of them all on every map? Fuck no. There is also the factor of scouting economy with the overlord. Some pillars give you view of gasses or mineral line at natural or allow you to sacrifice the overlord to scout them. Pillars further on side and back of natural are better for this but slack on the view of the choke. For example the pillar at back of natural on Fountainhead. The scout isn't always risk free because opponent can easily have enough units to kill the overlord before it can see the wanted information. For example on Enchanted Isle you can see if one the gasses has been taken, but you don't see how many workers it has and if the second gas has also been taken. To see the second gas you need to sacrifice the overlord, that gives vision on the choke. The map doesn't have any other overlord pillars that allow you to spot moveouts. If the closest pillar is further outside of natural like on Scavenger and Iliad, the overlord has to pass the choke to scout the mineral line and gasses, and thus make it very risky. There is of course the possibility of scout from the side of natural, but then the overlord doesn't have view on the choke at all. Look at back of natural in Tidehunter. Also making the side scout good option easily increases effectiveness of other air units, that will use the same air space. Thus this isn't only about overlord scouting anymore, but about air harass and drops too. On July 08 2021 01:41 KillerSmile wrote: I second this just so pro players stop calling rush maps big. Probably all information that was required when submitted should be shown. Excluding map file links. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
Aqueducts seemed even more turtly, perhaps even too turtly with how long armies take to rotate to get different angles of attack. And zerg spawning clockwise from a terran on Tidehunter seemed quite miserable. | ||
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StarWars1
Germany17 Posts
For Treadmill I share Ziggurats opinion. Funny take for Aqueducts: Day 1: "Its so difficult to hold on to those forward bases" Day 2: "If you take those forward bases with your Mech, you are in such a strong position" Yes it looked turtly in that Inno Rogue game, but zest had his difficulties to defend. Yamatai still grows on me, but had an unlucky game. Still want to like Courious Minds. It looks so cool and the games where entertaining. But still have doubts. 4p Maps presented their known issues. Undercity semes to be more positive received among those, but well its submitted to standard, so there is that. 2p Macro maps all have a fancy middle part which isn't really having any impact. So none of them stand out positive or negative. All of the statements are meant in a relative way, because the Quality of maps in total is really high. There is no Backpfeifengesicht (sadly) | ||
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NeuralNet88
22 Posts
Standard Containment White Sands Algor Mortis Macro Gresvan Hardwire Titan Cosmic Rush Electric Avenue Freestyle Hexmaster Xibalba I do think Fountainhead is a good map from what I've seen thus far, but the rest of the macro category is a massive disappointment, as is the freestyle category. Tidehunter has grown on me, but Bulwark & Undercity are mediocre maps at best. Still very disappointed that Hardwire was not included as a finalist. Has great ladder and tournament map written all over it. Out of the finalists I hope that Oblivion, Aqueducts, Curious Minds, Illiad, Fountainhead, Treadmill & Tidehunter are future ladder maps. Maybe Jacaranda as well, but I'm still not 100 % sure on that one. | ||
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DLSMIZEL
Philippines16 Posts
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Agaton
Sweden47 Posts
On July 08 2021 09:13 NeuralNet88 wrote: I think the finalists maps are a mixed bag. Ideally the maps I would have included would have been: Standard Containment White Sands Algor Mortis Macro Gresvan Hardwire Titan Cosmic Rush Electric Avenue Freestyle Hexmaster Xibalba I do think Fountainhead is a good map from what I've seen thus far, but the rest of the macro category is a massive disappointment, as is the freestyle category. Tidehunter has grown on me, but Bulwark & Undercity are mediocre maps at best. Still very disappointed that Hardwire was not included as a finalist. Has great ladder and tournament map written all over it. Out of the finalists I hope that Oblivion, Aqueducts, Curious Minds, Illiad, Fountainhead, Treadmill & Tidehunter are future ladder maps. Maybe Jacaranda as well, but I'm still not 100 % sure on that one. Thank you for the praise on Hardwire, it means a lot. Unless anything unexpected happens, it will have another go in the possible next TLMC. I think Jacaranda, as well as the other maps with 4 starting positions, will need some extra time before we know how well they work, especially because they're all rotational symmetry which brings some pros and cons for each starting location. I do think the Zest v Rouge game looked promising though. | ||
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Callynn
Netherlands917 Posts
On July 07 2021 23:50 scbroodsc2 wrote: I don't agree with some previous posts complaining about overlord pillars. I don't mean every maps should have those, but it's just like alot of other stuff to take into account when making a map, it's just more or less map features. The thing is, as much as we want to introduce new features, we're kind of biased to keep the old features thinking it would make the game unbalanced. But just like time proved it in the past, things tends to balance out by themself as people figure the new strategies around the new map features. Example of old map features that are hard to change.
And considering all the other stuff
Map design feels stuck because of all the past years in the same design and also because the game is balanced around that design and making a map stand out would make it instant veto because it doesn't follow the standar rules. I miss special maps with very original and unique neverseen things before (Think of Golden Wall for example, new and neverseen, at first people did not like it, then eventually there were some nice game played and it became fun). Contest like this one should promote original ideas and not copy old ways of doing things. It doesn't mean to redesign the whole game, but making the map a bit stand out of the box, yeah clearly this is a need. I think this cannot be overstated. Also for new mapmakers, having to abide by all these (hidden) rules makes it a very niche and delicate process to get into, and leaving very little room for real advancements. | ||
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scbroodsc2
Canada36 Posts
On July 08 2021 23:36 Callynn wrote: I think this cannot be overstated. Also for new mapmakers, having to abide by all these (hidden) rules makes it a very niche and delicate process to get into, and leaving very little room for real advancements. This is basicly what I'm trying to point out, how there are so many little rules that basicly restrict how much a mapmaker can imagine wild new maps. I really wish the game to get more and more fun and a bit less "standar" with very thight build and timings. That's my point of view, that is probably not shared with everyone, but that is fine. A bit of both is totally fine, wild maps and standar maps together. | ||
[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
On July 08 2021 01:36 KillerSmile wrote: Hey, great that you clarified your position properly so we can have a discussion. Calling it "shameless favoring of one race" to me kinda implies that mapmakers are malevolent, but apparently you meant to imply mapmakers are ignorant, both of which I take offense with obviously, hence the not so nice response on my part. I'll try to give you my point of view so we can get past that. What you say about the PvZ matchup and how it developed certainly is correct to some degree and even in TvZ scouting an early moveout for free does not seem fair. For Overlord Pillars we have like 4 basic options: 1: Lightshade: it corners the far side of the nat choke and sees every moveout 2: Deathaura: further out but also on the main attack path 3: Oxide/Jagannatha: the "fake" pillar on the close side of the nat entrance that can be seen from the main, but doesn't see every moveout 4: Triton: Same side as Lightshade, but does not see a moveout If you're complaining about #1 I'm actually with you. I think the overlord should have to move to scout, so I personally like #4 generally, but if the specific map asks for other solutions I'll use those, because different maps should be allowed to have different types of pillars. You compare Overlords to other types of scouting units and say that they are "basically free" because Zerg has to make them anyway, but you conveniently leave out that why Zerg has to make them anyway. Losing the Overlord and getting supplyblocked is super debilitating. No mapmaker wants that to decide a game on their map. Not in the GSL and not in gold league. It feels horrible to be punished for scouting, something that you want to teach the player is a good thing to do in a strategy game. Obviously I don't have to teach that to pro players, but even they hate it when their build gets completely screwed because they had no place to retreat their flying supply depot to. For you this might be a giant balance discussion and you might call my arguments bullshit and say that the gold leaguers just have to get good, or that this is all a sham and a conspiracy and that the mapmakers have all been duped by Big Zerg or whatever into thinking that the convenience of an overlord spot is necessary when it's only there to give the pro zergs an unfair advantage. Mapmakers are desigers of competitve multiplayer levels. We try to make them nice to play on. Losing the Overlord doesn't feel nice. Should we sometimes put more thought into which type of pillar to use? Yeah ofc. Should we just get rid of them all on every map? Fuck no. Yeah I agree. I kind of made the issue bigger than it is, but I do still think Overlords pillar are problematic. Not game breaking but problematic. Like you said very well there are different types of pylars. I think the ones like Lightshade and Jagannatha are too much and completely unnecessary. It's an advantage that the Zerg does not need anymore. Triton and Deathaura are much more acceptable. And like the other poster said, some Overlord spots can see not only the wall, but natural geysers, mineral saturation etc, that's way too much. But yeah, I mean it's not the incredibly big balance issue but...it's an unnecessary advantage imo. Changing topics: Ramp orientation always requiring to be diagona What's the reason for this? Also, did you guys see the game of Parting vs Solar GSL game 1 on Oblivion? Should that disqualify Oblivion for this map contest? Or can it be edited? + Show Spoiler + A single pylon can block the ramp What'sthe story of that map anyway? Was it created for GSL and then put into this contests? Kind of a shame as I liked the map. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
As for Oblivion it was made for this contest afaik, but Afreeca reached out directly to the mapmaker slightly over a week before GSL started (which is rather unusual) and got the map off him and put it in GSL. And no it doesn't result in the map getting disqualified from this map contest--this will just be fixed (in fact has already been fixed except the admin that uploads the maps isn't around so hasn't uploaded the fix yet). No idea how GSL operates with regards to this though. | ||
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scbroodsc2
Canada36 Posts
Ramp orientation always requiring to be diagonal What's the reason for this? I believe it changes the size of the ramp to smaller and also makes the ramp less visible when left/right and even less when top/down. But really, I think left/right ramps should be allowed. | ||
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