On May 09 2021 08:39 WombaT wrote:
It still doesn’t count against a Serral/Reynor what they were doing at 12/13/14 considering there isn’t really the option to train full time in a gaming house

I'd consider that an entirely different thing. No foreigners had the opportunity to play in a gaming house and even now players like Serral never have at least not for a significant length of time. Unless you're referring more to the fulltime aspect which I'd disagree with.

Idk what high school is like in Italy and Finland but I doubt it's significantly harder than the US and anyone as smart as these guys are isn't going to spend much time outside of school hours on school work. Besides any parental restrictions they may have had I doubt they were any more strapped for practice time than they are now.

I'm also sure that SC2 pros in Korea who started as teens have their high school diploma equivalent which would mean they spent time on school work as well. I highly doubt people like Maru just dropped out completely.

And I don't think the intent is to count it against them. It's just to not pretend they've had short and super dominant careers because that's just false.

WombaT

Northern Ireland26667 Posts

May 09 2021 01:44 GMT

#62

On May 09 2021 10:28 JJH777 wrote:

Show nested quote +

It’s what practice time though. A young Korean phenom at the time got taken into environments where they practiced alongside the very best regularly and got mentored.

Reynor and Serral didn’t have that option available, hell they were legally barred from taking part in certain tournaments due to EU laws.

They found ways that worked for them, but Europeans and American players have generally not had the chance to go full time and be embedded in a full time practice regime with some of the best players in the world, they just haven’t.

Comparing what a Serral or a Reynor was doing at 13-15 with others is bogus when in the former those guys were literally just grinding the ladder as amateur players, basically.

It’s like saying x musician who had chops and was self-taught is worse than another person who went to music school at the same age, even though the former never had the chance.

yepjan

20 Posts

May 09 2021 02:34 GMT

#63

this whole topic is bs, u dont need to be korean to be the best in something wtf

RKC

2848 Posts

May 09 2021 03:20 GMT

#64

On May 09 2021 05:34 JJH777 wrote:

Show nested quote +

Someone already responded with the Flash example but I'd also like to point out Maru won his first Starleague shortly after turning 16 and was 15 for most of the season. He was only 13 in his first GSL.

Good point. Agreed.

Anyway, I don't see any sense arguing about my off-hand remark. That's not the point of my original post, and even if the example was bad, still doesn't detract the essence of my point about GTO vs exploitative.

It's typical for certain fanboys to get triggered by a single remark, and argue against examples rather than the principle. The fact that only a single line was quoted out of my original post is rather misleading and disingenuous (my entire post could've been quoted, and that line could be highlighted, even if the person wanted to respond specifically to that line).

My only regret is adding that line (which on hindsight, was unnecessary to the point I'm making). Consider me retracting that line, okay? No, I'm not conceding that the example has no merit, but just for the sake of facilitating discussion on more constructive issues. Case closed, move along!

Ferretfood

Vatican City State2 Posts

May 09 2021 07:27 GMT

#65

Foreigners aren't winning at the highest level: Code S. They win weekend tournaments without prep time against B-tier Koreans, rarely. If SC2 weren't dead in Korea they wouldn't win anything. We know this because they didn't when it was alive.

RPR_Tempest

Australia7798 Posts

May 09 2021 15:03 GMT

#66

Serral and shit would still be doing amazingly but if there were still multiple practice houses with them all playing 10 hours a day then no, that has been historically proven to lead to an increase in skill.

yepjan

20 Posts

May 09 2021 16:23 GMT

#67

On May 10 2021 00:03 RPR_Tempest wrote:
Serral and shit would still be doing amazingly but if there were still multiple practice houses with them all playing 10 hours a day then no, that has been historically proven to lead to an increase in skill.

i mean ''serral and shit'' could do that too

Steelghost1

43 Posts

May 10 2021 07:06 GMT

#68

On May 08 2021 14:56 RKC wrote:
Here's my take on why foreigners are doing better in recent years. I'll use a poker analogy.

Top foreigners play purely game theory optimal aka GTO style (mechanical, safe, risk-adverse).

Top Koreans are equally good in playing both GTO and exploitative (high variance, abusive, playing against opponent, occasionally sub-optimal).

So why are Serral and Reynor crushing Koreans? Few factors (in order priority):
- LoTV has streamlined the game to reduce volatility (imagine taking cards 2 to 5 off the poker deck)
- Weekenders (Blizzcon and IEM) are 'grinds' which favour pure GTO style players (or at least, reduce the advantages of exploitative plays which benefits from preparation)
- Disbandment of Korean teamhouses which allowed for more sharing and coaching for 'exploitative' plays
- Zerg is the most-GTO friendly race (controversial, I know)

Overall, I feel top Koreans are still slightly 'better' in the game than foreigners due to their results, and overall mastery of the game through different versions and meta.

That's not to say that Serral and Reynor can't reach to their level yet. But unless they win GSL and produce results across different states of the game (unfortunately for them, that's a bit tough by now as the game development has stagnated - but one can argue that their mediocre results in HoTS is proof against them), they can't really be regarded as GOAT*.

* Want to be GOAT? Be like Flash - play GTO and exploitative, win massively, and yes, play random

Completely agree with this asessment. From a game theoretical payout standpoint these last few years Zerg has proven to be the race with the highest upsides and lesser risk compared to Terran and Protoss as choices. The way LOTV has been configured Zerg is the rational aggregate option at professional play.

Your point on weekenders vs extended tournaments did not occur to me, but is a natural consequence of your earlier consideration. The streamlined and default generic playstyle nature of competitors fighting each other indeed rewards consistent choice of the optimal iterated strategy over time, short event after short event.

Not sure if the people at Blizzard design and balance ever read Nash, Axelrod and so many others that worked in this field. Oddly enough, I get the feeling that game theoretical notions are often neglected in game balance and design.

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