One thing I've been wondering for a while is the effects of the fall of Kespay, Proleague, OSL etc had in the game.
Many of the best pros retired, many stayed. Some went back to BroodWard too. Many teamhouses disbanded.
While there are still some teamhouses in Korea, many of the top coaches left, and it is known that the team houses now are much less structured than they were in KeSPA days. While I cant say this for sure, I suspect they might even be less structured that on the early days of pre-KeSPA sc2 with the korean eSF.
I suspect that no. While Serral, Reynor, Clem etc are great talents, I don't believe they would be comparable to Korean players if their scene hadn't imploded. I think they would be like Stephano. Very good, winning some tournaments, giving us hope, but ultimately being defeated over time by the Koreans.
While it's impossible to tell, maybe we could have a conversation and make educated guesses?
I know some foreign pros use these forums, and they have had experience in Korea at various points in their career. How does the training evoirment compare now to what was there before?
There is a lack of new SCII players from Korea, and even if KeSPA had lived that would still have been the case. So yes non-Koreans would still have won eventually even if the team-house scene hadn't declined after KeSPA left. Institutional support doesn't win out in the long term when there's a lack of up and coming talent.
On May 06 2021 03:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote: There is a lack of new SCII players from Korea, and even if KeSPA had lived that would still have been the case. So yes non-Koreans would still have won eventually even if the team-house scene hadn't declined after KeSPA left. Institutional support doesn't win out in the long term when there's a lack of up and coming talent.
Isn‘t the lack of new players partly because Kespa stopped supporting the game?
On May 06 2021 03:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote: There is a lack of new SCII players from Korea, and even if KeSPA had lived that would still have been the case. So yes non-Koreans would still have won eventually even if the team-house scene hadn't declined after KeSPA left. Institutional support doesn't win out in the long term when there's a lack of up and coming talent.
Isn‘t the lack of new players partly because Kespa stopped supporting the game?
I'd say it's very much the other way around. KeSPA left because the game wasn't popular in Korea.
Kespa died because SC2 declined in korea, if Kespa didn't die it would still have died. Pretty much what Ziggurat wrote above, no new talent, few incentives to actually give 100% to sc2.
A more interesting question in my opinion is what if SC2 had gotten a big following in korea, then Kespa wouldn't have died and we would have a big inflow of new young talent as well. In that universe foreigners would never have the success they have had, but thats just my opinion about a very theoretical situation.
How many good Korean Zergs did we lose as a result of Kespa disbanding? For 2018 and 2019 results that is the only thing that really matters. For 2020 with Kespa still intact Serral/Reynor for sure would have done worse though.
On May 06 2021 03:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote: There is a lack of new SCII players from Korea, and even if KeSPA had lived that would still have been the case. So yes non-Koreans would still have won eventually even if the team-house scene hadn't declined after KeSPA left. Institutional support doesn't win out in the long term when there's a lack of up and coming talent.
Isn‘t the lack of new players partly because Kespa stopped supporting the game?
I'd say it's very much the other way around. KeSPA left because the game wasn't popular in Korea.
I've been thinking about this problem lately, and wondered if it's actually a global issue and not just a Korean issue.
Serral and Reynor get brought up as "new" talent that only the international scene can produce, but they're actually year one players who started SC2 at a VERY young age and only matured into pros their late teens (AFAIK Clem started a bit later, but still during the WoL era). If we're talking about truly new talent (let's say LotV onward?), I'm not sure if there are many players who are making an impact, even outside of Korea.
On May 06 2021 03:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote: There is a lack of new SCII players from Korea, and even if KeSPA had lived that would still have been the case. So yes non-Koreans would still have won eventually even if the team-house scene hadn't declined after KeSPA left. Institutional support doesn't win out in the long term when there's a lack of up and coming talent.
Isn‘t the lack of new players partly because Kespa stopped supporting the game?
I'd say it's very much the other way around. KeSPA left because the game wasn't popular in Korea.
I've been thinking about this problem lately, and wondered if it's actually a global issue and not just a Korean issue.
Serral and Reynor get brought up as "new" talent that only the international scene can produce, but they're actually year one players who started SC2 at a VERY young age and only matured into pros their late teens (AFAIK Clem started a bit later, but still during the WoL era). If we're talking about truly new talent (let's say LotV onward?), I'm not sure if there are many players who are making an impact, even outside of Korea.
MaxPax doesn't have any major or premier tournament results yet, but he is an example of a good player who's been playing tournaments for less than two years.
How many world class players did Korea really lose after the matchfixing scandal? Many of the earlier champions already left or were in decline.
The interest for Sc2 in the country basically died right after and KeSpa dispanded with the departure of all the teamhouses but one, that's true; however, I don't think there was a significant influx of new korean players as early as 2016 and Byun that year showed us that you don't necessarily need a teamhouse to rise to the top.
I doubt that any korean teamhouse could have stopped Serral's ascent in 2018 while I think the absence of region lock could have suffocated his growth or outright convinced him not to go full time just as it was the case with other foreigners back in HoTS; once developed, skill of such magnitude has no nationality, it's irrelevant if Serral or Reynor or Clem effectively are korean or not.
A deeper and more populated korean scene would have produced/mantained more top players, obviously making it harder for the current top foreigners to win; on the other hand, it would have also made harder for certain koreans who dominated the post KeSpa era to amass all the titles they won.
On May 06 2021 04:40 JJH777 wrote: How many good Korean Zergs did we lose as a result of Kespa disbanding? For 2018 and 2019 results that is the only thing that really matters.
This revisionism is never dying, is it? I get it that the lack of balance in favor of Zerg was overwhelming in the second half of 2019 and lasted long months but this shouldn't make people forget, like they instead do very often, that Zerg wasn't too strong in 2018 and in the first half of 2019; go check once more how often a Zerg reached a GSL final in that timespan.
I also think that without region lock some future top talents at the time might have considered not going full time because it would not be worth it (especially a guy like Serral, whereas a Reynor imo would have played either way), and thus prevented from fully growing to their potential. If kespa didn't die and pros stayed, even with a bit of young blood from korea (long shot though...), top foreigners like Serral would still be able to compete with top koreans, but with the competition being fiercer the odds of winning international tournaments would be lower obviously. Especially winning BlizzCon with potentially 12 or 13 koreans, all at top level, would be even more difficult, even if zerg was dominant.
You have to keep in mind though that most of the top sc2 pros were still playing post kespa disband. Rain was the only guy to be dominant in sc2 that ended up going back to BW, the others weren't as good as Zest/Stats or soO/Dark (and later Rogue) or Maru/INno and even ByuN... Maybe soulkey/roro?
edit: also if you think zerg wasn't super strong / favored in late 2018/even 2019 to a lesser extent, you are delusional.
No breed of new talents resulting in less competitive scene since the fights just happened among their peers only, consequently ended up in declined players' skill overall.
On May 06 2021 07:20 Poopi wrote: I also think that without region lock some future top talents at the time might have considered not going full time because it would not be worth it (especially a guy like Serral, whereas a Reynor imo would have played either way), and thus prevented from fully growing to their potential. If kespa didn't die and pros stayed, even with a bit of young blood from korea (long shot though...), top foreigners like Serral would still be able to compete with top koreans, but with the competition being fiercer the odds of winning international tournaments would be lower obviously. Especially winning BlizzCon with potentially 12 or 13 koreans, all at top level, would be even more difficult, even if zerg was dominant.
You have to keep in mind though that most of the top sc2 pros were still playing post kespa disband. Rain was the only guy to be dominant in sc2 that ended up going back to BW, the others weren't as good as Zest/Stats or soO/Dark (and later Rogue) or Maru/INno and even ByuN... Maybe soulkey/roro?
edit: also if you think zerg wasn't super strong / favored in late 2018/even 2019 to a lesser extent, you are delusional.
Which means you pretty much agree with me on everything. The number of koreans at BlizzCon 2018 was and would have been fixed at 8 with region lock being present; consider also how much harder it would have been for Maru to win 4 Code S consecutively or for Rogue to win Katowice 2020, for example.
Zerg definitely was not op in that period, if anything Terran was lagging behind especially in early 2019 but Protoss were well positioned in the meta, the sudde kongness of their top players explain their lack of titles.
Those who believe the rise of a plethora of new foreign stars has nothing to do with the crumbling of the only real professional system SC2 had haven’t pay attention to the last two decades that just came to pass, as much as we may have wanted it, talent and hard work could never keep up with institutionalized performances.
On May 06 2021 07:20 Poopi wrote: I also think that without region lock some future top talents at the time might have considered not going full time because it would not be worth it (especially a guy like Serral, whereas a Reynor imo would have played either way), and thus prevented from fully growing to their potential. If kespa didn't die and pros stayed, even with a bit of young blood from korea (long shot though...), top foreigners like Serral would still be able to compete with top koreans, but with the competition being fiercer the odds of winning international tournaments would be lower obviously. Especially winning BlizzCon with potentially 12 or 13 koreans, all at top level, would be even more difficult, even if zerg was dominant.
You have to keep in mind though that most of the top sc2 pros were still playing post kespa disband. Rain was the only guy to be dominant in sc2 that ended up going back to BW, the others weren't as good as Zest/Stats or soO/Dark (and later Rogue) or Maru/INno and even ByuN... Maybe soulkey/roro?
edit: also if you think zerg wasn't super strong / favored in late 2018/even 2019 to a lesser extent, you are delusional.
Which means you pretty much agree with me on everything. The number of koreans at BlizzCon 2018 was and would have been fixed at 8 with region lock being present; consider also how much harder it would have been for Maru to win 4 Code S consecutively or for Rogue to win Katowice 2020, for example.
Zerg definitely was not op in that period, if anything Terran was lagging behind especially in early 2019 but Protoss were well positioned in the meta, the sudde kongness of their top players explain their lack of titles.
Yes exactly, it would have been harder for anyone to be a champion. Foreigners have a much lower chance as it is so their chances to win a championship if kespa would have persisted is really low.
On May 06 2021 07:00 Xain0n wrote: How many world class players did Korea really lose after the matchfixing scandal? Many of the earlier champions already left or were in decline.
The interest for Sc2 in the country basically died right after and KeSpa dispanded with the departure of all the teamhouses but one, that's true; however, I don't think there was a significant influx of new korean players as early as 2016 and Byun that year showed us that you don't necessarily need a teamhouse to rise to the top.
I doubt that any korean teamhouse could have stopped Serral's ascent in 2018 while I think the absence of region lock could have suffocated his growth or outright convinced him not to go full time just as it was the case with other foreigners back in HoTS; once developed, skill of such magnitude has no nationality, it's irrelevant if Serral or Reynor or Clem effectively are korean or not.
A deeper and more populated korean scene would have produced/mantained more top players, obviously making it harder for the current top foreigners to win; on the other hand, it would have also made harder for certain koreans who dominated the post KeSpa era to amass all the titles they won.
On May 06 2021 04:40 JJH777 wrote: How many good Korean Zergs did we lose as a result of Kespa disbanding? For 2018 and 2019 results that is the only thing that really matters.
This revisionism is never dying, is it? I get it that the lack of balance in favor of Zerg was overwhelming in the second half of 2019 and lasted long months but this shouldn't make people forget, like they instead do very often, that Zerg wasn't too strong in 2018 and in the first half of 2019; go check once more how often a Zerg reached a GSL final in that timespan.
I agree that Maru wouldn't have won 4 GSLs in a row without the Kespa disband. I also agree that Rogue probably wouldn't have won as much.
Zergs was still extremely strong in 2018. They won the most prize money by a larger margin than any other race had ever done up to that point. Even moreso than Terran in 2011. Prize money isn't everything but such a huge difference does point towards imbalance and the state of lategame TvZ that year post raven patch was not kind to Terran. Even Maru relied on mid game builds for the rest of the year in TvZ after raven nerfs. Every top Terran was complaining and Terran received significant buffs in the next several patches.
Their lack of GSL success was mostly on Maru having an absolutely amazing year in TvZ and the preparation nature of the tournament significantly helping Protoss players beat them in well planned series. I also believe Rogue really did have a mental issue with GSL ro8s. That's the only way that series against Neeb that year makes any sense to me...
On May 06 2021 07:00 Xain0n wrote: How many world class players did Korea really lose after the matchfixing scandal? Many of the earlier champions already left or were in decline.
The interest for Sc2 in the country basically died right after and KeSpa dispanded with the departure of all the teamhouses but one, that's true; however, I don't think there was a significant influx of new korean players as early as 2016 and Byun that year showed us that you don't necessarily need a teamhouse to rise to the top.
I doubt that any korean teamhouse could have stopped Serral's ascent in 2018 while I think the absence of region lock could have suffocated his growth or outright convinced him not to go full time just as it was the case with other foreigners back in HoTS; once developed, skill of such magnitude has no nationality, it's irrelevant if Serral or Reynor or Clem effectively are korean or not.
A deeper and more populated korean scene would have produced/mantained more top players, obviously making it harder for the current top foreigners to win; on the other hand, it would have also made harder for certain koreans who dominated the post KeSpa era to amass all the titles they won.
On May 06 2021 04:40 JJH777 wrote: How many good Korean Zergs did we lose as a result of Kespa disbanding? For 2018 and 2019 results that is the only thing that really matters.
This revisionism is never dying, is it? I get it that the lack of balance in favor of Zerg was overwhelming in the second half of 2019 and lasted long months but this shouldn't make people forget, like they instead do very often, that Zerg wasn't too strong in 2018 and in the first half of 2019; go check once more how often a Zerg reached a GSL final in that timespan.
I agree that Maru wouldn't have won 4 GSLs in a row without the Kespa disband. I also agree that Rogue probably wouldn't have won as much.
Zergs was still extremely strong in 2018. They won the most prize money by a larger margin than any other race had ever done up to that point. Even moreso than Terran in 2011. Prize money isn't everything but such a huge difference does point towards imbalance and the state of lategame TvZ that year post raven patch was not kind to Terran. Even Maru relied on mid game builds for the rest of the year in TvZ after raven nerfs. Every top Terran was complaining and Terran received significant buffs in the next several patches.
Their lack of GSL success was mostly on Maru having an absolutely amazing year in TvZ and the preparation nature of the tournament significantly helping Protoss players beat them in well planned series. I also believe Rogue really did have a mental issue with GSL ro8s. That's the only way that series against Neeb that year makes any sense to me...
Not really, it was mostly Serral dominating, Rogue winning Katowice and the amazing kongness of Protoss going 1-7 in finals against Zerg in 2018(not that it was going to improve in the following years) combined with the fact that world championships were paying a lot and were very top heavy. Maru won his Code S at the expenses of mostly Protoss, Super Tournaments were won by Protoss(with Stats defeating Dark) and no Zerg excluding Serral reached a Premier final in the second half of the year.
When in 2019 Zerg became truly op, we had many more Zerg finalist and a significant number of ZvZ finals.
On May 06 2021 08:09 Shuffleblade wrote:
Yes exactly, it would have been harder for anyone to be a champion. Foreigners have a much lower chance as it is so their chances to win a championship if kespa would have persisted is really low.
Foreigners having a much lower chance? It depends from how strong they are, the three currently dominating Europe are as skilled as any top korean.
On May 06 2021 07:00 Xain0n wrote: How many world class players did Korea really lose after the matchfixing scandal? Many of the earlier champions already left or were in decline.
The interest for Sc2 in the country basically died right after and KeSpa dispanded with the departure of all the teamhouses but one, that's true; however, I don't think there was a significant influx of new korean players as early as 2016 and Byun that year showed us that you don't necessarily need a teamhouse to rise to the top.
I doubt that any korean teamhouse could have stopped Serral's ascent in 2018 while I think the absence of region lock could have suffocated his growth or outright convinced him not to go full time just as it was the case with other foreigners back in HoTS; once developed, skill of such magnitude has no nationality, it's irrelevant if Serral or Reynor or Clem effectively are korean or not.
A deeper and more populated korean scene would have produced/mantained more top players, obviously making it harder for the current top foreigners to win; on the other hand, it would have also made harder for certain koreans who dominated the post KeSpa era to amass all the titles they won.
On May 06 2021 04:40 JJH777 wrote: How many good Korean Zergs did we lose as a result of Kespa disbanding? For 2018 and 2019 results that is the only thing that really matters.
This revisionism is never dying, is it? I get it that the lack of balance in favor of Zerg was overwhelming in the second half of 2019 and lasted long months but this shouldn't make people forget, like they instead do very often, that Zerg wasn't too strong in 2018 and in the first half of 2019; go check once more how often a Zerg reached a GSL final in that timespan.
I agree that Maru wouldn't have won 4 GSLs in a row without the Kespa disband. I also agree that Rogue probably wouldn't have won as much.
Zergs was still extremely strong in 2018. They won the most prize money by a larger margin than any other race had ever done up to that point. Even moreso than Terran in 2011. Prize money isn't everything but such a huge difference does point towards imbalance and the state of lategame TvZ that year post raven patch was not kind to Terran. Even Maru relied on mid game builds for the rest of the year in TvZ after raven nerfs. Every top Terran was complaining and Terran received significant buffs in the next several patches.
Their lack of GSL success was mostly on Maru having an absolutely amazing year in TvZ and the preparation nature of the tournament significantly helping Protoss players beat them in well planned series. I also believe Rogue really did have a mental issue with GSL ro8s. That's the only way that series against Neeb that year makes any sense to me...
Not really, it was mostly Serral dominating, Rogue winning Katowice and the amazing kongness of Protoss going 1-7 in finals against Zerg in 2018(not that it was going to improve in the following years) combined with the fact that world championships were paying a lot and were very top heavy. Maru won his Code S at the expenses of mostly Protoss, Super Tournaments were won by Protoss(with Stats defeating Dark) and no Zerg excluding Serral reached a Premier final in the second half of the year.
When in 2019 Zerg became truly op, we had many more Zerg finalist and a significant number of ZvZ finals.
Yes exactly, it would have been harder for anyone to be a champion. Foreigners have a much lower chance as it is so their chances to win a championship if kespa would have persisted is really low.
Foreigners having a much lower chance? It depends from how strong they are, the three currently dominating Europe are as skilled as any top korean.
The thing is you can literally remove Serrals earnings completely and Zergs still won the most money in 2018. That's without even taking into account that the players Serral beat in ro4s that year were frequently Zergs who may have very well won the events each of those times they lost to Serral.
I don't think there was really much that could be done. It wasn't so much anything Kespa could change. Other games became popular, had a lot more money in it and had things in place to ensure new talent had a chance to come up. With Overwatch, League and Dota exploding since Kespa came to SC2 it was only a matter of time.
They would still win. With the way Starcraft 2 instant ladder queues work and matches you with similar MMR ppl, top EU ladder is almost as good practice as customs Korean team houses would do. It was always only a matter of time until foreign players caught up.
Lets be real, being korean doesnt make you better at sc2. Practicing does. If starcraft1 had a ladder like sc2 from day 1, i think more foreign players wouldve done good in broodwar.
Serral probably would still have good results, even if not as impressive. He is one those extremely talented players who would not need Kespa to be sucessful like Life and Taeja. I don't see things like Reynor's katowice or elazer GSL finals happening with kespa around tho.
On May 06 2021 03:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote: There is a lack of new SCII players from Korea, and even if KeSPA had lived that would still have been the case. So yes non-Koreans would still have won eventually even if the team-house scene hadn't declined after KeSPA left. Institutional support doesn't win out in the long term when there's a lack of up and coming talent.
well, with support, there would be new players. so... i don't think foreigners would have same results without going there and practice/live in pro houses.
On May 06 2021 03:26 [Phantom] wrote: I think they would be like Stephano. Very good, winning some tournaments, giving us hope, but ultimately being defeated over time by the Koreans.
Glad you pointed this out. While Stephano definitely was the best foreigner at a time, he never was the GOAT that many claimed him to be.
Ironically i think it was his whole attitude that held him back from being truly great. If he had practised more - and more seriously - he might have reached Serral/Reynor/Clem level at some point. Alas he took it easy and had alot of fun instead, and still ended up having a very succesful career.
If SC2 was big in korea and kespa didn't die, the europeans of today and the past years would still be as skilled as they are. The difference is that the koreans would be stronger, I don't understand how anyone can think it would be harder for Maru or Rogue to win but not harder for Serral or Reynor.
Either SC2 being a success in korea and kespa staying alive would heighten the level of korean sc2 making ot harder for everyone to win a tournament or the level stayed the same and got the same results as they have today. If ByuN wouldn't be able to do what he did in an alternative dimension with kespa I don't think Serral would be able to either.
Obbiously Serral might still have won one or two tournemants, he is still a god but would he be AS successful as he has been in a world with a declined korean scene.
On May 06 2021 03:26 [Phantom] wrote: I think they would be like Stephano. Very good, winning some tournaments, giving us hope, but ultimately being defeated over time by the Koreans.
Glad you pointed this out. While Stephano definitely was the best foreigner at a time, he never was the GOAT that many claimed him to be.
Ironically i think it was his whole attitude that held him back from being truly great. If he had practised more - and more seriously - he might have reached Serral/Reynor/Clem level at some point. Alas he took it easy and had alot of fun instead, and still ended up having a very succesful career.
So when Kespa wouldn't have died, there'd be a lot more money in SC2 and Stephano would have gone super serious full time mode and would have ruled the world and then Kespa would have died because Stephano too stronk!
On May 06 2021 03:26 [Phantom] wrote: I think they would be like Stephano. Very good, winning some tournaments, giving us hope, but ultimately being defeated over time by the Koreans.
Glad you pointed this out. While Stephano definitely was the best foreigner at a time, he never was the GOAT that many claimed him to be.
Ironically i think it was his whole attitude that held him back from being truly great. If he had practised more - and more seriously - he might have reached Serral/Reynor/Clem level at some point. Alas he took it easy and had alot of fun instead, and still ended up having a very succesful career.
So when Kespa wouldn't have died, there'd be a lot more money in SC2 and Stephano would have gone super serious full time mode and would have ruled the world and then Kespa would have died because Stephano too stronk!
One thing to note - currently the low influx of players is caused by an additional problem - to get money you have to win over the former teamhouse players. And it's not like you can get easily drafted by the foreign house and play in foreign events where the skill level is lower, because of region lock. Koreans are locked with what .... 30 very good Koreans? If you could have played in the NA ...
KeSPA would be able to actually nurture at least some talent, this environment kills the talent because Korea is still oversaturared
And to answer the question - foreigner wouldn't win as much if at all.
On May 06 2021 17:00 deacon.frost wrote: One thing to note - currently the low influx of players is caused by an additional problem - to get money you have to win over the former teamhouse players. And it's not like you can get easily drafted by the foreign house and play in foreign events where the skill level is lower, because of region lock. Koreans are locked with what .... 30 very good Koreans? If you could have played in the NA ...
KeSPA would be able to actually nurture at least some talent, this environment kills the talent because Korea is still oversaturared
And to answer the question - foreigner wouldn't win as much if at all.
There are numerous events where Koreans could take part but won't cause of server lags, sleep times, scheduling. As a young Korean pro you really would have to risk it all and move to NA long term
Serral, Reynor and Clem are incredibly skilled and just by looking at their play it's clear they would've been able to beat any player in the world. However I think it's also undeniable that their results would on average be worse than they are now. It's just mathematics, right now there are maybe 4-5 koreans that can really challenge them (more than the occassional upset) but back in the day there were like 15 top koreans who could challenge any player in the world. If there are more players who can beat you your results will on average be worse.
On May 06 2021 04:34 Shuffleblade wrote: Kespa died because SC2 declined in korea, if Kespa didn't die it would still have died. Pretty much what Ziggurat wrote above, no new talent, few incentives to actually give 100% to sc2.
A more interesting question in my opinion is what if SC2 had gotten a big following in korea, then Kespa wouldn't have died and we would have a big inflow of new young talent as well. In that universe foreigners would never have the success they have had, but thats just my opinion about a very theoretical situation.
Not really sure about that. Pro scene doesn't necessary flourish or decay at the same pace as the general player pool. Like in LOL/OW China/EU/NA have way more players but Koreans still dominate.
I remember Dark mentioning Proleague viewership was recovering in the last season and was really ruined by the match fixing. If that did not happen KeSPA, Proleague, and the Korean pro scene could hang on at around the same level for quite some time.
On May 06 2021 18:32 Charoisaur wrote: Serral, Reynor and Clem are incredibly skilled and just by looking at their play it's clear they would've been able to beat any player in the world. However I think it's also undeniable that their results would on average be worse than they are now. It's just mathematics, right now there are maybe 4-5 koreans that can really challenge them (more than the occassional upset) but back in the day there were like 15 top koreans who could challenge any player in the world. If there are more players who can beat you your results will on average be worse.
Also let's not pretend the training regime currently is the same as in the house
The Kespa system has/had it limits, it also doesn’t suit everyone. Byun being an example of someone who excelled through his own ways, and close enough to the Kespa disbandment for a comparison to not be entirely bogus.
It’ll build you to a point, I don’t think SC2 is as brutal as BW, especially mechanically. In the latter, yeah you almost require a good amount of time in a team house to be competitive, SC2 not so much.
There is also an incomparable amount of information available in the SC2 era with streaming and easy replay availability from big tournaments, as well as the brainstorming that occurs in various scenes.
If players like Serral and Reynor and Clem can hit the levels of many Kespa vets, I think they could it the system persisted too. The really top guys might have an extra percentage point or two added to their power, so that would be tough to overcome for sure, but the average proleague player from back in the day wouldn’t hold a candle to say peak Serral.
I think it would depend on how the tournament scene outside of Kespa existing would look or not. A Serral weighing up to go full time in an ecosystem where being the best European pays the bills, vs a tournament ecosystem where the 30+ best Kespa players are your gateway to making any money.
The Europeans especially collaborate a lot in a sense where the good theorycrafters who maybe lack in raw mechanical ability still contribute to raising the overall bar (see Reynor’s practice/coaching team for Katowice), so I think they could still produce good results even if Kespa had maintained.
Given how Asian cultural in general is............. let's just say there's not enough incentive to play SC2 as pro.
Social pressure, peer pressure, pressure from your parents and significant others etc etc.
Ok, even a much easier answer, if you go into a PC bang, everyone is playing like league of legends, valorant or w/e the hot new thing is................ Does being good in SC2 give you any bragging rights? :D
In general, I've seen the more "pure" approach from the west, if someone really like something, they'd go all out on it for that reason more.
Based off on the above observation, yeah......... Serral and others were just matter of time to beat the Koreans.
Not to mention how many little details Scan was giving Artosis on the stream, without those team houses and Kespa, and all the regimented training, Korean is not the same level they once were. Honestly I don't even feel like Serral beating Korean was that "amazing" in that term.
Match-fixing and Blizzard shoving SC2 down Korean's throats killed Kespa's BW scene and SC2 not being as popular in Korea just finished Kespa off. So something that was unique only to Korea ended. To me Kespa's BW golden days was the pinnacle of e-sports and will probably never happen again. Unless a culture develops like it did for BW in Korea, but it's highly unlikely.
Where else can you get the kinds of yearly salaries Flash and other S-class progamers got playing a video game? Just looked at the Kespa era at it's peak and all the players it supported with 5 and 6 digit salaries, if someone can give me an other example, then I'll believe that Kespa wasn't the pinnacle of e-sports. Everything else is just treasure hunting...
I don't remember the details but didn't Flash sign a 3 year contract with 300,000$ yearly salary? Bisu, Jaedong also had similar salaries. Other S class progamers had around 100,000$ yearly salaries, while A Class progamers had respectable 5 digit salaries as well. B-teamers and practice partners was where the real struggle and competition was with so much talent. SC2 wasn't able to compete in post Kespa era.
I was a big fan of sAviOr back in the day, for dismantling terran with state of the art defiler usage, but he destroyed the whole BW scene after he was caught match-fixing.
On May 07 2021 13:35 showstealer1829 wrote: Kespa dying wasn't the problem. The Region Lock was. Even if Kespa had stayed on you wouldn't have got passed that.
The region lock killed Korea. You will NEVER convince me otherwise so don't even try.
Great conversation starter to inform others, that there is no need to talk to you.
On May 07 2021 13:35 showstealer1829 wrote: Kespa dying wasn't the problem. The Region Lock was. Even if Kespa had stayed on you wouldn't have got passed that.
The region lock killed Korea. You will NEVER convince me otherwise so don't even try.
Great conversation starter to inform others, that there is no need to talk to you.
While it's a stupid starter he's not wrong. Korea has the issue of being stuck in the vitous circle situation since the region lock.
There's too many good players for just the Korean scene, so worse players cannot survive in it. Region lock removes the option to travel abroad so worse players can be easily obtained by the foreign teams(see how many Koreans ended after the region lock in the WCS Europe) Now there's less Koreans, so we lower the capability of getting money. <---- this is where KeSPA leaving actually added more pressure while not lowering the money from the tourneys per se And now there's too many good players for just the Korean scene again.
The history of SC2 is really messy just because BW was so big thing in one country, South Korea, and was even known for being a national sport in the country. If the sequel fails in the country that has big pro scene and isn't adopted over the previous game, then the public perception of the new games gets hurt badly. Thus, you have to be some what forceful in transition. This of course isn't good to the relationship, when previously the organizations in the country were free to do what the saw best. On the other hand there has been big match fixing scandal and the country isn't unfamiliar with corruption.
Now we have influx of older players from previous game and players benefiting from existing competitive infrastructure. This automatically creates duality with other parts of world as the country is basically an faraway island compared to most of the world getting into the game. This is great as you can frame it as underdogs vs the champions. However this can't really last for forever. Unfortunately the world isn't catching up. Instead the events happening around the world are being dominated by players from the country, while new esports games are getting more popular and provide good players chance to which games in seek of greener grass. This also happens in the country because the sequel isn't as popular as the original game. The country has also culture that heavily focuses on the best of the best so the prize pools are top heavy and you are nobody if you aren't in any well established pro teams.
All of this creates situation, where you want to protect the scene outside the country as you can't justify spending millions on part 2 and 3 of the sequel as well as in marketing with competitive tournaments, while the game relies on success in one country, where the sequel isn't that popular. Thus you start creating regional events and eventually even block players from the country competing in some events. This of course is bad in short term as the previous underdogs vs. champions setup isn't even possible and many only care about the highest level of competition and not about the health of the scene outside the country. The change also makes so that the players around the world get more spotlight while not being as good or interesting as hoped for. However having most players at least speaking in broken English helps to get know the players as pretty much everything isn't going through an interpreter all the time. These changes eventually pay off but the popularity of the game falls greatly before that happens.
While the popularity of the game is decreasing and the competitors are booming and become much bigger, the news of a world champion being involved in match fixing hits. Obviously many teams and sponsor have to examine their current involvement with the game as this isn't the first time that match fixing has happened at the highest level. This creates kind of perfect storm with popularity falling hard, where it's easy to cut loses by pulling support and increasing investments in other esports that are booming hard. Situation also highlights the issue of relying on one country providing the highest level of players. Especially when said country has had criminal issues multiple times. Thus team league ends and many teams are disbanded over time. The greatest tournament in the country and the world is continued, but it is quite clear that in future the local popularity and scene should be driving much harder to justify any significant increases in support from the publisher, that needs to focus more on the scene outside the country to justify future investments.
The scene around the world is improving slowly and has some great competition within, but the top players get smashed by the players from the country. However it is viable to compete full time and commit to the game knowing that you need to be only at the top of your region and not at the top of the world. The skill level keeps increasing and some flashes or brilliance are achieved. Then in 2018 the rise of Serral happens and the best player isn't from the country anymore.
Would this success have happened if the organizations in the country had not disbanded? Probably, but not at the same extend and we could probably still hear a lot more, how the top EU players haven't actually reached the same skill level, but are just beating much worse players, like we heard in 2018 before Serral won GSL vs. the World and the world championship. However, this would be mostly because existing players would have maintained their incentives better, and not because new players or players around the world not getting better. Also attributing the fall of Korean scene and their relative skill level to just disbanding teams or region lock is trivializing things way too much, when there are clear issues like the popularity decreasing over the years and match fixing/corruption.
On May 07 2021 13:35 showstealer1829 wrote: Kespa dying wasn't the problem. The Region Lock was. Even if Kespa had stayed on you wouldn't have got passed that.
The region lock killed Korea. You will NEVER convince me otherwise so don't even try.
Great conversation starter to inform others, that there is no need to talk to you.
While it's a stupid starter he's not wrong. Korea has the issue of being stuck in the vitous circle situation since the region lock.
There's too many good players for just the Korean scene, so worse players cannot survive in it. Region lock removes the option to travel abroad so worse players can be easily obtained by the foreign teams(see how many Koreans ended after the region lock in the WCS Europe) Now there's less Koreans, so we lower the capability of getting money. <---- this is where KeSPA leaving actually added more pressure while not lowering the money from the tourneys per se And now there's too many good players for just the Korean scene again.
You could have had a region lock that gave the foreigners locked WCS tournaments to develop in, and Korea could have had 2 Starleagues + Supertournament + Proleague, and then open international tournies like the old regular IEMs or Dreamhack and that’s more than enough to both develop the foreign scene and keep the Korean one ticking over.
I think this issue feeds off of different factors.
My opinion, foreigners such as Serral and Raynor would still be top players in a KeSpa world, yet they would not dominate as they have. I believe that the reasons for this polarization and dominance also needs to take into account that LOTV rewarded more tactical play (mechanical monsters) than overall strategical decisions due to streamlining build orders and the 12 worker start (ode to the 6 pool, players having more choice over opening greedy, safe, cheesy, scouting with a worker or not scouting; and how all these affected midgame and lategame dynamics). Players then could defeat others by displaying a slightly more varied skillset, while it seems that styles now are more universal and it rewards more similar types of competitors.
Region lock may also be factored in, and of course matchfixing.
Some loss in popularity due to the aforementioned variables (as well as foreigners getting better) may be the reason foreigners now are more highly regarded as before.
On May 07 2021 19:45 Steelghost1 wrote: I think this issue feeds off of different factors.
My opinion, foreigners such as Serral and Raynor would still be top players in a KeSpa world, yet they would not dominate as they have. I believe that the reasons for this polarization and dominance also needs to take into account that LOTV rewarded more tactical play (mechanical monsters) than overall strategical decisions due to streamlining build orders and the 12 worker start (ode to the 6 pool, players having more choice over opening greedy, safe, cheesy, scouting with a worker or not scouting; and how all these affected midgame and lategame dynamics). Players then could defeat others by displaying a slightly more varied skillset, while it seems that styles now are more universal and it rewards more similar types of competitors.
Region lock may also be factored in, and of course matchfixing.
Some loss in popularity due to the aforementioned variables (as well as foreigners getting better) may be the reason foreigners now are more highly regarded as before.
I think this is a good point that isn’t made often enough. If there’s a singular player whose strengths have been lessened in this expansion I think it’s sOs. While not having bad mechanics he’s not a mechanical god either and he used to get a lot of good work done in the old expanded early game with clever and deceptive builds.
On May 07 2021 19:45 Steelghost1 wrote: I think this issue feeds off of different factors.
My opinion, foreigners such as Serral and Raynor would still be top players in a KeSpa world, yet they would not dominate as they have. I believe that the reasons for this polarization and dominance also needs to take into account that LOTV rewarded more tactical play (mechanical monsters) than overall strategical decisions due to streamlining build orders and the 12 worker start (ode to the 6 pool, players having more choice over opening greedy, safe, cheesy, scouting with a worker or not scouting; and how all these affected midgame and lategame dynamics). Players then could defeat others by displaying a slightly more varied skillset, while it seems that styles now are more universal and it rewards more similar types of competitors.
Region lock may also be factored in, and of course matchfixing.
Some loss in popularity due to the aforementioned variables (as well as foreigners getting better) may be the reason foreigners now are more highly regarded as before.
I think this is a good point that isn’t made often enough. If there’s a singular player whose strengths have been lessened in this expansion I think it’s sOs. While not having bad mechanics he’s not a mechanical god either and he used to get a lot of good work done in the old expanded early game with clever and deceptive builds.
THIS.
This is the right idea. sOs was great not because of his absurd mechanical prowess, but rather because he was capable of playing the mindgame; he got in in other players heads and could devise smart builds and army compositions that allowed him to beat tactically superior players. I think you hit the nail with probably the most extreme example.
On May 07 2021 19:45 Steelghost1 wrote: I think this issue feeds off of different factors.
My opinion, foreigners such as Serral and Raynor would still be top players in a KeSpa world, yet they would not dominate as they have. I believe that the reasons for this polarization and dominance also needs to take into account that LOTV rewarded more tactical play (mechanical monsters) than overall strategical decisions due to streamlining build orders and the 12 worker start (ode to the 6 pool, players having more choice over opening greedy, safe, cheesy, scouting with a worker or not scouting; and how all these affected midgame and lategame dynamics). Players then could defeat others by displaying a slightly more varied skillset, while it seems that styles now are more universal and it rewards more similar types of competitors.
Region lock may also be factored in, and of course matchfixing.
Some loss in popularity due to the aforementioned variables (as well as foreigners getting better) may be the reason foreigners now are more highly regarded as before.
They don't dominate though. From the past 3 or 4 years most of the top tier victories still go to the Korea.
On May 07 2021 19:45 Steelghost1 wrote: I think this issue feeds off of different factors.
My opinion, foreigners such as Serral and Raynor would still be top players in a KeSpa world, yet they would not dominate as they have. I believe that the reasons for this polarization and dominance also needs to take into account that LOTV rewarded more tactical play (mechanical monsters) than overall strategical decisions due to streamlining build orders and the 12 worker start (ode to the 6 pool, players having more choice over opening greedy, safe, cheesy, scouting with a worker or not scouting; and how all these affected midgame and lategame dynamics). Players then could defeat others by displaying a slightly more varied skillset, while it seems that styles now are more universal and it rewards more similar types of competitors.
Region lock may also be factored in, and of course matchfixing.
Some loss in popularity due to the aforementioned variables (as well as foreigners getting better) may be the reason foreigners now are more highly regarded as before.
They don't dominate though. From the past 3 or 4 years most of the top tier victories still go to the Korea.
You are right. I was framing the issue more along the lines of certain types of tactical players being the dominant competitive force, which I think allowed them (particularly the zerg ones) to be winning more consistently in the top brackets.
Here's my take on why foreigners are doing better in recent years. I'll use a poker analogy.
Top foreigners play purely game theory optimal aka GTO style (mechanical, safe, risk-adverse).
Top Koreans are equally good in playing both GTO and exploitative (high variance, abusive, playing against opponent, occasionally sub-optimal).
So why are Serral and Reynor crushing Koreans? Few factors (in order priority): - LoTV has streamlined the game to reduce volatility (imagine taking cards 2 to 5 off the poker deck) - Weekenders (Blizzcon and IEM) are 'grinds' which favour pure GTO style players (or at least, reduce the advantages of exploitative plays which benefits from preparation) - Disbandment of Korean teamhouses which allowed for more sharing and coaching for 'exploitative' plays - Zerg is the most-GTO friendly race (controversial, I know)
Overall, I feel top Koreans are still slightly 'better' in the game than foreigners due to their results, and overall mastery of the game through different versions and meta.
That's not to say that Serral and Reynor can't reach to their level yet. But unless they win GSL and produce results across different states of the game (unfortunately for them, that's a bit tough by now as the game development has stagnated - but one can argue that their mediocre results in HoTS is proof against them), they can't really be regarded as GOAT*.
* Want to be GOAT? Be like Flash - play GTO and exploitative, win massively, and yes, play random
On May 08 2021 14:56 RKC wrote: but one can argue that their mediocre results in HoTS is proof against them), they can't really be regarded as GOAT*.
Yeah, reynor and serral's results as 12-15 year olds while in high school is a good argument against them for sure.
"Drafted by Pantech and Curitel in 2007 and traded off to KTF MagicNs shortly after being drafted, Flash came on to the scene as one of the youngest progamers to be televised at 14 years old. Advancing to the Daum OSL from his first attempt in the offline preliminaries, his career started off in a strong fashion, quickly amassing a winning record in Proleague play and succeeding in getting into both the MSL and OSL...
In 2008, Flash's career reached new heights when he defeated Stork in the finals of the 2008 Bacchus OSL and became the youngest Starleague champion ever at 15, defeating top players such as Jaedong and Bisu along the way.".
On May 08 2021 14:56 RKC wrote: Here's my take on why foreigners are doing better in recent years. I'll use a poker analogy.
Top foreigners play purely game theory optimal aka GTO style (mechanical, safe, risk-adverse).
Top Koreans are equally good in playing both GTO and exploitative (high variance, abusive, playing against opponent, occasionally sub-optimal).
So why are Serral and Reynor crushing Koreans? Few factors (in order priority): - LoTV has streamlined the game to reduce volatility (imagine taking cards 2 to 5 off the poker deck) - Weekenders (Blizzcon and IEM) are 'grinds' which favour pure GTO style players (or at least, reduce the advantages of exploitative plays which benefits from preparation) - Disbandment of Korean teamhouses which allowed for more sharing and coaching for 'exploitative' plays - Zerg is the most-GTO friendly race (controversial, I know)
Overall, I feel top Koreans are still slightly 'better' in the game than foreigners due to their results, and overall mastery of the game through different versions and meta.
That's not to say that Serral and Reynor can't reach to their level yet. But unless they win GSL and produce results across different states of the game (unfortunately for them, that's a bit tough by now as the game development has stagnated - but one can argue that their mediocre results in HoTS is proof against them), they can't really be regarded as GOAT*.
* Want to be GOAT? Be like Flash - play GTO and exploitative, win massively, and yes, play random
I agree. I always wanted to have WCS with similar, time-stretched format as GSL. Korea have both long tournaments like GSL which favor 'exloitative' play and short 'weekenders' like ST whereas in WCS there is no long, preparation style tournaments at all. Would be cool to see if given enough time 'lesser' players with hard work could innovate and prepare special builds against top dogs and actually beat them
On May 08 2021 14:56 RKC wrote: Here's my take on why foreigners are doing better in recent years. I'll use a poker analogy.
Top foreigners play purely game theory optimal aka GTO style (mechanical, safe, risk-adverse).
Top Koreans are equally good in playing both GTO and exploitative (high variance, abusive, playing against opponent, occasionally sub-optimal).
So why are Serral and Reynor crushing Koreans? Few factors (in order priority): - LoTV has streamlined the game to reduce volatility (imagine taking cards 2 to 5 off the poker deck) - Weekenders (Blizzcon and IEM) are 'grinds' which favour pure GTO style players (or at least, reduce the advantages of exploitative plays which benefits from preparation) - Disbandment of Korean teamhouses which allowed for more sharing and coaching for 'exploitative' plays - Zerg is the most-GTO friendly race (controversial, I know)
Overall, I feel top Koreans are still slightly 'better' in the game than foreigners due to their results, and overall mastery of the game through different versions and meta.
That's not to say that Serral and Reynor can't reach to their level yet. But unless they win GSL and produce results across different states of the game (unfortunately for them, that's a bit tough by now as the game development has stagnated - but one can argue that their mediocre results in HoTS is proof against them), they can't really be regarded as GOAT*.
* Want to be GOAT? Be like Flash - play GTO and exploitative, win massively, and yes, play random
I agree. I always wanted to have WCS with similar, time-stretched format as GSL. Korea have both long tournaments like GSL which favor 'exloitative' play and short 'weekenders' like ST whereas in WCS there is no long, preparation style tournaments at all. Would be cool to see if given enough time 'lesser' players with hard work could innovate and prepare special builds against top dogs and actually beat them
Also, top Koreans are compelled to play GTO + exploitative in order to excel in GSL - which is their bread and butter (playing purely GTO style will just get you slaughtered by masters of exploitative plays i.e. Rogue, Dark, sOs, Zest, even Maru to a certain extent, etc.). Whereas top foreigners (except those in Korea, if any) just play 'weekenders' whole year long.
So of course top foreigners feel more at home at Blizzcon and IEM. Whereas Korean have to 'switch up' their training and mindset to prepare for those events.
On May 08 2021 14:56 RKC wrote: Here's my take on why foreigners are doing better in recent years. I'll use a poker analogy.
Top foreigners play purely game theory optimal aka GTO style (mechanical, safe, risk-adverse).
Top Koreans are equally good in playing both GTO and exploitative (high variance, abusive, playing against opponent, occasionally sub-optimal).
So why are Serral and Reynor crushing Koreans? Few factors (in order priority): - LoTV has streamlined the game to reduce volatility (imagine taking cards 2 to 5 off the poker deck) - Weekenders (Blizzcon and IEM) are 'grinds' which favour pure GTO style players (or at least, reduce the advantages of exploitative plays which benefits from preparation) - Disbandment of Korean teamhouses which allowed for more sharing and coaching for 'exploitative' plays - Zerg is the most-GTO friendly race (controversial, I know)
Overall, I feel top Koreans are still slightly 'better' in the game than foreigners due to their results, and overall mastery of the game through different versions and meta.
That's not to say that Serral and Reynor can't reach to their level yet. But unless they win GSL and produce results across different states of the game (unfortunately for them, that's a bit tough by now as the game development has stagnated - but one can argue that their mediocre results in HoTS is proof against them), they can't really be regarded as GOAT*.
* Want to be GOAT? Be like Flash - play GTO and exploitative, win massively, and yes, play random
I agree. I always wanted to have WCS with similar, time-stretched format as GSL. Korea have both long tournaments like GSL which favor 'exloitative' play and short 'weekenders' like ST whereas in WCS there is no long, preparation style tournaments at all. Would be cool to see if given enough time 'lesser' players with hard work could innovate and prepare special builds against top dogs and actually beat them
Also, top Koreans are compelled to play GTO + exploitative in order to excel in GSL - which is their bread and butter (playing purely GTO style will just get you slaughtered by masters of exploitative plays i.e. Rogue, Dark, sOs, Zest, even Maru to a certain extent, etc.). Whereas top foreigners (except those in Korea, if any) just play 'weekenders' whole year long.
So of course top foreigners feel more at home at Blizzcon and IEM. Whereas Korean have to 'switch up' their training and mindset to prepare for those events.
Yep. Let me just add that I think that this difference in the approach to the game between foreigners and Koreans might be one of the main reasons people have arguments who is the GOAT/current best player what is the power ranking etc. as some will value more the creativity and preparation while others will appreciate the calculated all comers build with perfect execution. For me personally the most exciting sc2 part was the ProLeague, the pinnacle of exploitation & preparation as the format allowed for great, unique and the craziest games ever. I miss it wholeheartedly
I'll just echo what some people have already said: I think Serral, Reynor, and Clem, at their current level, would definitely be competing at the highest level and going toe-to-toe with top Koreans. The main thing that would make it harder would be if they had more competition (i.e., more top level players, which we would have if SC2 had retained its popularity and KESPA stuck around).
Side note: I think there's a case to be made that making KESPA BW pros switch to SC2 was a terrible move for pro starcraft. It instantly destroyed the BW scene, which SC2 100% was not a replacement for (good god, what kind of career might Jangbi have had if not for this switch?!), and it gave SC2 a new influx of pros, which might have been good for the SC2 scene short-term, but it wound up meaning that there were more pros chasing after the diminishing returns of a declining scene. So much of that talent was cultivated and then squandered. Especially in retrospect, the KESPA switch seems like it was about as destructive as it could have been.
On May 08 2021 14:56 RKC wrote: but one can argue that their mediocre results in HoTS is proof against them), they can't really be regarded as GOAT*.
Yeah, reynor and serral's results as 12-15 year olds while in high school is a good argument against them for sure.
Someone already responded with the Flash example but I'd also like to point out Maru won his first Starleague shortly after turning 16 and was 15 for most of the season. He was only 13 in his first GSL.
It still doesn’t count against a Serral/Reynor what they were doing at 12/13/14 considering there isn’t really the option to train full time in a gaming house
On May 09 2021 08:39 WombaT wrote: It still doesn’t count against a Serral/Reynor what they were doing at 12/13/14 considering there isn’t really the option to train full time in a gaming house
I'd consider that an entirely different thing. No foreigners had the opportunity to play in a gaming house and even now players like Serral never have at least not for a significant length of time. Unless you're referring more to the fulltime aspect which I'd disagree with.
Idk what high school is like in Italy and Finland but I doubt it's significantly harder than the US and anyone as smart as these guys are isn't going to spend much time outside of school hours on school work. Besides any parental restrictions they may have had I doubt they were any more strapped for practice time than they are now.
I'm also sure that SC2 pros in Korea who started as teens have their high school diploma equivalent which would mean they spent time on school work as well. I highly doubt people like Maru just dropped out completely.
And I don't think the intent is to count it against them. It's just to not pretend they've had short and super dominant careers because that's just false.
On May 09 2021 08:39 WombaT wrote: It still doesn’t count against a Serral/Reynor what they were doing at 12/13/14 considering there isn’t really the option to train full time in a gaming house
I'd consider that an entirely different thing. No foreigners had the opportunity to play in a gaming house and even now players like Serral never have at least not for a significant length of time. Unless you're referring more to the fulltime aspect which I'd disagree with.
Idk what high school is like in Italy and Finland but I doubt it's significantly harder than the US and anyone as smart as these guys are isn't going to spend much time outside of school hours on school work. Besides any parental restrictions they may have had I doubt they were any more strapped for practice time than they are now.
I'm also sure that SC2 pros in Korea who started as teens have their high school diploma equivalent which would mean they spent time on school work as well. I highly doubt people like Maru just dropped out completely.
And I don't think the intent is to count it against them. It's just to not pretend they've had short and super dominant careers because that's just false.
It’s what practice time though. A young Korean phenom at the time got taken into environments where they practiced alongside the very best regularly and got mentored.
Reynor and Serral didn’t have that option available, hell they were legally barred from taking part in certain tournaments due to EU laws.
They found ways that worked for them, but Europeans and American players have generally not had the chance to go full time and be embedded in a full time practice regime with some of the best players in the world, they just haven’t.
Comparing what a Serral or a Reynor was doing at 13-15 with others is bogus when in the former those guys were literally just grinding the ladder as amateur players, basically.
It’s like saying x musician who had chops and was self-taught is worse than another person who went to music school at the same age, even though the former never had the chance.
On May 08 2021 14:56 RKC wrote: but one can argue that their mediocre results in HoTS is proof against them), they can't really be regarded as GOAT*.
Yeah, reynor and serral's results as 12-15 year olds while in high school is a good argument against them for sure.
Someone already responded with the Flash example but I'd also like to point out Maru won his first Starleague shortly after turning 16 and was 15 for most of the season. He was only 13 in his first GSL.
Good point. Agreed.
Anyway, I don't see any sense arguing about my off-hand remark. That's not the point of my original post, and even if the example was bad, still doesn't detract the essence of my point about GTO vs exploitative.
It's typical for certain fanboys to get triggered by a single remark, and argue against examples rather than the principle. The fact that only a single line was quoted out of my original post is rather misleading and disingenuous (my entire post could've been quoted, and that line could be highlighted, even if the person wanted to respond specifically to that line).
My only regret is adding that line (which on hindsight, was unnecessary to the point I'm making). Consider me retracting that line, okay? No, I'm not conceding that the example has no merit, but just for the sake of facilitating discussion on more constructive issues. Case closed, move along!
Foreigners aren't winning at the highest level: Code S. They win weekend tournaments without prep time against B-tier Koreans, rarely. If SC2 weren't dead in Korea they wouldn't win anything. We know this because they didn't when it was alive.
Serral and shit would still be doing amazingly but if there were still multiple practice houses with them all playing 10 hours a day then no, that has been historically proven to lead to an increase in skill.
On May 10 2021 00:03 RPR_Tempest wrote: Serral and shit would still be doing amazingly but if there were still multiple practice houses with them all playing 10 hours a day then no, that has been historically proven to lead to an increase in skill.
On May 08 2021 14:56 RKC wrote: Here's my take on why foreigners are doing better in recent years. I'll use a poker analogy.
Top foreigners play purely game theory optimal aka GTO style (mechanical, safe, risk-adverse).
Top Koreans are equally good in playing both GTO and exploitative (high variance, abusive, playing against opponent, occasionally sub-optimal).
So why are Serral and Reynor crushing Koreans? Few factors (in order priority): - LoTV has streamlined the game to reduce volatility (imagine taking cards 2 to 5 off the poker deck) - Weekenders (Blizzcon and IEM) are 'grinds' which favour pure GTO style players (or at least, reduce the advantages of exploitative plays which benefits from preparation) - Disbandment of Korean teamhouses which allowed for more sharing and coaching for 'exploitative' plays - Zerg is the most-GTO friendly race (controversial, I know)
Overall, I feel top Koreans are still slightly 'better' in the game than foreigners due to their results, and overall mastery of the game through different versions and meta.
That's not to say that Serral and Reynor can't reach to their level yet. But unless they win GSL and produce results across different states of the game (unfortunately for them, that's a bit tough by now as the game development has stagnated - but one can argue that their mediocre results in HoTS is proof against them), they can't really be regarded as GOAT*.
* Want to be GOAT? Be like Flash - play GTO and exploitative, win massively, and yes, play random
Completely agree with this asessment. From a game theoretical payout standpoint these last few years Zerg has proven to be the race with the highest upsides and lesser risk compared to Terran and Protoss as choices. The way LOTV has been configured Zerg is the rational aggregate option at professional play.
Your point on weekenders vs extended tournaments did not occur to me, but is a natural consequence of your earlier consideration. The streamlined and default generic playstyle nature of competitors fighting each other indeed rewards consistent choice of the optimal iterated strategy over time, short event after short event.
Not sure if the people at Blizzard design and balance ever read Nash, Axelrod and so many others that worked in this field. Oddly enough, I get the feeling that game theoretical notions are often neglected in game balance and design.