EPTLets be real, being korean doesnt make you better at sc2. Practicing does. If starcraft1 had a ladder like sc2 from day 1, i think more foreign players wouldve done good in broodwar.
If KeSPA hadn't died, would Foreigners win today? - Page 2
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Snakestyle11
191 Posts
Lets be real, being korean doesnt make you better at sc2. Practicing does. If starcraft1 had a ladder like sc2 from day 1, i think more foreign players wouldve done good in broodwar. | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
I don't see things like Reynor's katowice or elazer GSL finals happening with kespa around tho. | ||
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vyzion
308 Posts
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chickenandbeer1234
5 Posts
After that, 80% of former bw pros in Korea came back to bw. If they all continued to play sc2, it would be same as 2015. | ||
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Zergiica
Croatia128 Posts
On May 06 2021 03:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote: There is a lack of new SCII players from Korea, and even if KeSPA had lived that would still have been the case. So yes non-Koreans would still have won eventually even if the team-house scene hadn't declined after KeSPA left. Institutional support doesn't win out in the long term when there's a lack of up and coming talent. well, with support, there would be new players. so... i don't think foreigners would have same results without going there and practice/live in pro houses. | ||
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Wintex
Norway16838 Posts
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SmoKim
Denmark10305 Posts
On May 06 2021 03:26 [Phantom] wrote: I think they would be like Stephano. Very good, winning some tournaments, giving us hope, but ultimately being defeated over time by the Koreans. Glad you pointed this out. While Stephano definitely was the best foreigner at a time, he never was the GOAT that many claimed him to be. Ironically i think it was his whole attitude that held him back from being truly great. If he had practised more - and more seriously - he might have reached Serral/Reynor/Clem level at some point. Alas he took it easy and had alot of fun instead, and still ended up having a very succesful career. | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
Either SC2 being a success in korea and kespa staying alive would heighten the level of korean sc2 making ot harder for everyone to win a tournament or the level stayed the same and got the same results as they have today. If ByuN wouldn't be able to do what he did in an alternative dimension with kespa I don't think Serral would be able to either. Obbiously Serral might still have won one or two tournemants, he is still a god but would he be AS successful as he has been in a world with a declined korean scene. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7162 Posts
On May 06 2021 16:41 SmoKim wrote: Glad you pointed this out. While Stephano definitely was the best foreigner at a time, he never was the GOAT that many claimed him to be. Ironically i think it was his whole attitude that held him back from being truly great. If he had practised more - and more seriously - he might have reached Serral/Reynor/Clem level at some point. Alas he took it easy and had alot of fun instead, and still ended up having a very succesful career. So when Kespa wouldn't have died, there'd be a lot more money in SC2 and Stephano would have gone super serious full time mode and would have ruled the world and then Kespa would have died because Stephano too stronk! | ||
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SmoKim
Denmark10305 Posts
On May 06 2021 16:52 Harris1st wrote: So when Kespa wouldn't have died, there'd be a lot more money in SC2 and Stephano would have gone super serious full time mode and would have ruled the world and then Kespa would have died because Stephano too stronk! Stephano stole Flash salary. It is known | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
 KeSPA would be able to actually nurture at least some talent, this environment kills the talent because Korea is still oversaturared And to answer the question - foreigner wouldn't win as much if at all. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7162 Posts
On May 06 2021 17:00 deacon.frost wrote: One thing to note - currently the low influx of players is caused by an additional problem - to get money you have to win over the former teamhouse players. And it's not like you can get easily drafted by the foreign house and play in foreign events where the skill level is lower, because of region lock. Koreans are locked with what .... 30 very good Koreans? If you could have played in the NA ... KeSPA would be able to actually nurture at least some talent, this environment kills the talent because Korea is still oversaturared And to answer the question - foreigner wouldn't win as much if at all. There are numerous events where Koreans could take part but won't cause of server lags, sleep times, scheduling. As a young Korean pro you really would have to risk it all and move to NA long term | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
However I think it's also undeniable that their results would on average be worse than they are now. It's just mathematics, right now there are maybe 4-5 koreans that can really challenge them (more than the occassional upset) but back in the day there were like 15 top koreans who could challenge any player in the world. If there are more players who can beat you your results will on average be worse. | ||
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CMS_Flash
Hong Kong47 Posts
On May 06 2021 04:34 Shuffleblade wrote: Kespa died because SC2 declined in korea, if Kespa didn't die it would still have died. Pretty much what Ziggurat wrote above, no new talent, few incentives to actually give 100% to sc2. A more interesting question in my opinion is what if SC2 had gotten a big following in korea, then Kespa wouldn't have died and we would have a big inflow of new young talent as well. In that universe foreigners would never have the success they have had, but thats just my opinion about a very theoretical situation. Not really sure about that. Pro scene doesn't necessary flourish or decay at the same pace as the general player pool. Like in LOL/OW China/EU/NA have way more players but Koreans still dominate. I remember Dark mentioning Proleague viewership was recovering in the last season and was really ruined by the match fixing. If that did not happen KeSPA, Proleague, and the Korean pro scene could hang on at around the same level for quite some time. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 06 2021 18:32 Charoisaur wrote: Serral, Reynor and Clem are incredibly skilled and just by looking at their play it's clear they would've been able to beat any player in the world. However I think it's also undeniable that their results would on average be worse than they are now. It's just mathematics, right now there are maybe 4-5 koreans that can really challenge them (more than the occassional upset) but back in the day there were like 15 top koreans who could challenge any player in the world. If there are more players who can beat you your results will on average be worse. Also let's not pretend the training regime currently is the same as in the house  | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26689 Posts
It’ll build you to a point, I don’t think SC2 is as brutal as BW, especially mechanically. In the latter, yeah you almost require a good amount of time in a team house to be competitive, SC2 not so much. There is also an incomparable amount of information available in the SC2 era with streaming and easy replay availability from big tournaments, as well as the brainstorming that occurs in various scenes. If players like Serral and Reynor and Clem can hit the levels of many Kespa vets, I think they could it the system persisted too. The really top guys might have an extra percentage point or two added to their power, so that would be tough to overcome for sure, but the average proleague player from back in the day wouldn’t hold a candle to say peak Serral. I think it would depend on how the tournament scene outside of Kespa existing would look or not. A Serral weighing up to go full time in an ecosystem where being the best European pays the bills, vs a tournament ecosystem where the 30+ best Kespa players are your gateway to making any money. The Europeans especially collaborate a lot in a sense where the good theorycrafters who maybe lack in raw mechanical ability still contribute to raising the overall bar (see Reynor’s practice/coaching team for Katowice), so I think they could still produce good results even if Kespa had maintained. | ||
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PurE)Rabbit-SF
United States685 Posts
Social pressure, peer pressure, pressure from your parents and significant others etc etc. Ok, even a much easier answer, if you go into a PC bang, everyone is playing like league of legends, valorant or w/e the hot new thing is................ Does being good in SC2 give you any bragging rights? :D In general, I've seen the more "pure" approach from the west, if someone really like something, they'd go all out on it for that reason more. Based off on the above observation, yeah......... Serral and others were just matter of time to beat the Koreans. Not to mention how many little details Scan was giving Artosis on the stream, without those team houses and Kespa, and all the regimented training, Korean is not the same level they once were. Honestly I don't even feel like Serral beating Korean was that "amazing" in that term. | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
Where else can you get the kinds of yearly salaries Flash and other S-class progamers got playing a video game? Just looked at the Kespa era at it's peak and all the players it supported with 5 and 6 digit salaries, if someone can give me an other example, then I'll believe that Kespa wasn't the pinnacle of e-sports. Everything else is just treasure hunting... I don't remember the details but didn't Flash sign a 3 year contract with 300,000$ yearly salary? Bisu, Jaedong also had similar salaries. Other S class progamers had around 100,000$ yearly salaries, while A Class progamers had respectable 5 digit salaries as well. B-teamers and practice partners was where the real struggle and competition was with so much talent. SC2 wasn't able to compete in post Kespa era. I was a big fan of sAviOr back in the day, for dismantling terran with state of the art defiler usage, but he destroyed the whole BW scene after he was caught match-fixing. | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
The region lock killed Korea. You will NEVER convince me otherwise so don't even try. | ||
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