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On November 12 2020 20:01 Julmust wrote:
None of the invited players voiced any concerns about it. It might be that we're lacking a cultural understanding of Korea but, to us, them accepting an invite equals them also giving their stamp of approval.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I think you guys are doing a great job! The more SC2, the better, and I'll be sure to watch it!! We're just giving these feedback out to make sure that we have the best tournament possible.
In terms of the starting times and the lack of feedback, I'm sure the Koreans are generally okay with it. It's not the biggest tournament, and I'm sure they understand the issue of viewership/sponsors as well. It's just that they are not that much invested in it, and therefore they are much more forgiving on the scheduling. You can bet that if it's IEM Katowice, and there are suboptimal conditions, I'm sure they will say something, albeit perhaps not with the same urgency or forcefulness that foreigners who can speak English will do.
However, as I have mentioned, playing late into the night definitely affects their performance, despite what some might say. Even if they accepted it, it also just means that they accept that they will be playing not at their peak performance.
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I must admit, I'm also not buying the "they did not complain" argument. As has been pointed out, there are some cultural things here. Further, it could just be that the Koreans have accepted that late playing times are necessary from business point of view and thus accept playing late because they think there is no alternative.
If you really want to know then ask them directly. Ask them "when would you prefer to play" and "at what hour do you feel you are no longer playing your best" etc.
Personally I find it a bit off-putting if organisers (or others) say that scheduling doesn't matter to players, or that cross-server environment doesn't affect regional and racial balance. If broadcast hours are chosen for business reasons - fine, but let's be honest about it. Then we can watch the games for what they are, and yes then we will have to be honest that Koreans probably aren't playing their best at 7 am after being up all night. It can still be a great tournament, the games can still be great.
The denial is the problem imo. And it reverberates through the LR/chat and feeds the flamewars (am not saying it's the only thing feeding them though).
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What would these players do if they had to fly to NA for Blizzcon? They'd get there, adjust their sleep schedule, and then play the tournament. Why is that too much to ask for professionals to do now that they don't even have to get on a plane and fly anywhere? It's like most people have never had a job that changed hours.
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On November 12 2020 23:16 sneakyfox wrote:
I must admit, I'm also not buying the "they did not complain" argument. As has been pointed out, there are some cultural things here. Further, it could just be that the Koreans have accepted that late playing times are necessary from business point of view and thus accept playing late because they think there is no alternative.
If you really want to know then ask them directly. Ask them "when would you prefer to play" and "at what hour do you feel you are no longer playing your best" etc.
Personally I find it a bit off-putting if organisers (or others) say that scheduling doesn't matter to players, or that cross-server environment doesn't affect regional and racial balance. If broadcast hours are chosen for business reasons - fine, but let's be honest about it. Then we can watch the games for what they are, and yes then we will have to be honest that Koreans probably aren't playing their best at 7 am after being up all night. It can still be a great tournament, the games can still be great.
The denial is the problem imo. And it reverberates through the LR/chat and feeds the flamewars (am not saying it's the only thing feeding them though).
Exactly, I agree with this. That's the reason why I brought it up. The organisers or casters do not even acknowledge it or talk about it. It just feels like sometimes there is no one who is prominent in the scene in the English world that is speaking up on behalf of the Koreans, and that grinds my gears.
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On November 12 2020 23:21 mierin wrote:
What would these players do if they had to fly to NA for Blizzcon? They'd get there, adjust their sleep schedule, and then play the tournament. Why is that too much to ask for professionals to do now that they don't even have to get on a plane and fly anywhere? It's like most people have never had a job that changed hours.
That's not the point though. The point is that it is *always* the Koreans who are being asked to do that, and almost never the foreigners. Just go through all the previous online events over this past year and see which event has been favourable scheduling wise for the Koreans. Which, to be fair, I can totally understand that! The issue is that people coming and saying that it doesn't affect them or their plays, or as sneakyfox says, no one acknowledges that they are playing from a disadvantage.
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Germany767 Posts
On November 12 2020 23:16 sneakyfox wrote:
I must admit, I'm also not buying the "they did not complain" argument. As has been pointed out, there are some cultural things here. Further, it could just be that the Koreans have accepted that late playing times are necessary from business point of view and thus accept playing late because they think there is no alternative.
If you really want to know then ask them directly. Ask them "when would you prefer to play" and "at what hour do you feel you are no longer playing your best" etc.
Personally I find it a bit off-putting if organisers (or others) say that scheduling doesn't matter to players, or that cross-server environment doesn't affect regional and racial balance. If broadcast hours are chosen for business reasons - fine, but let's be honest about it. Then we can watch the games for what they are, and yes then we will have to be honest that Koreans probably aren't playing their best at 7 am after being up all night. It can still be a great tournament, the games can still be great.
The denial is the problem imo. And it reverberates through the LR/chat and feeds the flamewars (am not saying it's the only thing feeding them though).
I can only speak from my personal experience and the accounts of other pros living in Korea. It's almost impossible to find any practice in Korea before 13:00 or 14:00 local time, because most Korean pros are nightowls regularly playing deep into the night, almost to the morning of the next day. This isn't a new phenomena from this year due to cross continental online play forcing them into this lifestyle, but has been the case already even when I lived in Korea in 2010 and 2011.
Tournaments running late into the night still isn't ideal, but when servicing 3 different continents there is unfortunately some concessions you have to make.
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On November 13 2020 03:57 Liquid`TLO wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2020 23:16 sneakyfox wrote:
I must admit, I'm also not buying the "they did not complain" argument. As has been pointed out, there are some cultural things here. Further, it could just be that the Koreans have accepted that late playing times are necessary from business point of view and thus accept playing late because they think there is no alternative.
If you really want to know then ask them directly. Ask them "when would you prefer to play" and "at what hour do you feel you are no longer playing your best" etc.
Personally I find it a bit off-putting if organisers (or others) say that scheduling doesn't matter to players, or that cross-server environment doesn't affect regional and racial balance. If broadcast hours are chosen for business reasons - fine, but let's be honest about it. Then we can watch the games for what they are, and yes then we will have to be honest that Koreans probably aren't playing their best at 7 am after being up all night. It can still be a great tournament, the games can still be great.
The denial is the problem imo. And it reverberates through the LR/chat and feeds the flamewars (am not saying it's the only thing feeding them though).
I can only speak from my personal experience and the accounts of other pros living in Korea. It's almost impossible to find any practice in Korea before 13:00 or 14:00 local time, because most Korean pros are nightowls regularly playing deep into the night, almost to the morning of the next day. This isn't a new phenomena from this year due to cross continental online play forcing them into this lifestyle, but has been the case already even when I lived in Korea in 2010 and 2011.
Maybe it has changed since then? Scarlett was just telling us that hardly anyone plays after 1 am.
Tournaments running late into the night still isn't ideal, but when servicing 3 different continents there is unfortunately some concessions you have to make.
Well it's fair enough if concessions have to be made, I'd just like that organisers are clear about why they do it that way, while acknowledging the consequences it has for certain players
And can we please get back to offline tournaments already! (f u corona)
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On November 13 2020 04:59 sneakyfox wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2020 03:57 Liquid`TLO wrote:On November 12 2020 23:16 sneakyfox wrote:
I must admit, I'm also not buying the "they did not complain" argument. As has been pointed out, there are some cultural things here. Further, it could just be that the Koreans have accepted that late playing times are necessary from business point of view and thus accept playing late because they think there is no alternative.
If you really want to know then ask them directly. Ask them "when would you prefer to play" and "at what hour do you feel you are no longer playing your best" etc.
Personally I find it a bit off-putting if organisers (or others) say that scheduling doesn't matter to players, or that cross-server environment doesn't affect regional and racial balance. If broadcast hours are chosen for business reasons - fine, but let's be honest about it. Then we can watch the games for what they are, and yes then we will have to be honest that Koreans probably aren't playing their best at 7 am after being up all night. It can still be a great tournament, the games can still be great.
The denial is the problem imo. And it reverberates through the LR/chat and feeds the flamewars (am not saying it's the only thing feeding them though).
I can only speak from my personal experience and the accounts of other pros living in Korea. It's almost impossible to find any practice in Korea before 13:00 or 14:00 local time, because most Korean pros are nightowls regularly playing deep into the night, almost to the morning of the next day. This isn't a new phenomena from this year due to cross continental online play forcing them into this lifestyle, but has been the case already even when I lived in Korea in 2010 and 2011. Maybe it has changed since then? Scarlett was just telling us that hardly anyone plays after 1 am. Show nested quote +
Tournaments running late into the night still isn't ideal, but when servicing 3 different continents there is unfortunately some concessions you have to make.
Well it's fair enough if concessions have to be made, I'd just like that organisers are clear about why they do it that way, while acknowledging the consequences it has for certain players And can we please get back to offline tournaments already! (f u corona)
Did you notice Solar playing all the ESL Cups in one day, winning two? Maybe it's not that big of a problem to play till 4 AM for them. I am sure that's not ideal for them but it appears pretty clear they had the opportunity to give negative feedback since they were asked about it.
It's like you guys know better than koreans themselves what's better for them, why they aren't overtly speaking against playing during the night and when they would be comfortable to play.
As for the ping, it might be that it favors certain races or certain strategies but it has no clear direction, there is no anti korean scheme behind cross server play; the games are played on the fairest possible server or maps are split on the two most fair ones.
Astrea mentioned he had 170 ping on Australian server when playing against Trap(who I imagine would have a similar ping), that sucks but it's either no Sc2 at all, regional competitions only or cross server play, as flawed as it is.
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On November 11 2020 04:44 NonY wrote:
Nice. I will try to play a qualifier for old time's sake. So the qualifiers are at 8am PST too? That's tough for a weekday.
Yey! Would you consider streaming it?
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Just ask Scarlett/Special or anyone who has lived in Korea recently.
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I really hope the music and the vibe will be more TSL1-like than TSL5-like, btw.
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What about Mainland China/Taiwan/Hong Kong/Macao/Japan and other East Asians?
Do they have to play EU/AM qualifiers?
PS:  TIME participated in TSL5 through KR Qualifier 3.
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On November 16 2020 18:04 thickertom wrote:What about Mainland China/Taiwan/Hong Kong/Macao/Japan and other East Asians? Do they have to play EU/AM qualifiers? PS: TIME participated in TSL5 through KR Qualifier 3.
In the rules it s stated, that for playing on Korean Qualifier, you have to be either living in Korea right now or have Korean citicenship.
So Koreans can play Krean qualifiers and everyone else has to Play NA + EU. Only one, who can choose wich one he plays on is Special, as he s the only foreigner in Korea right now:
In general, the rules will stay the same. Players wishing to compete in the Korean qualifiers must either be a) a Korean citizen, or b) living in Korea. Korean citizens are generally not allowed to play in the NA/EU qualifiers and anyone living in Korea gets to choose: KR or NA/EU, exclusively.
Thats why there are more NA than EU spots I gues.
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Czech Republic12132 Posts
On November 13 2020 03:57 Liquid`TLO wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2020 23:16 sneakyfox wrote:
I must admit, I'm also not buying the "they did not complain" argument. As has been pointed out, there are some cultural things here. Further, it could just be that the Koreans have accepted that late playing times are necessary from business point of view and thus accept playing late because they think there is no alternative.
If you really want to know then ask them directly. Ask them "when would you prefer to play" and "at what hour do you feel you are no longer playing your best" etc.
Personally I find it a bit off-putting if organisers (or others) say that scheduling doesn't matter to players, or that cross-server environment doesn't affect regional and racial balance. If broadcast hours are chosen for business reasons - fine, but let's be honest about it. Then we can watch the games for what they are, and yes then we will have to be honest that Koreans probably aren't playing their best at 7 am after being up all night. It can still be a great tournament, the games can still be great.
The denial is the problem imo. And it reverberates through the LR/chat and feeds the flamewars (am not saying it's the only thing feeding them though).
I can only speak from my personal experience and the accounts of other pros living in Korea. It's almost impossible to find any practice in Korea before 13:00 or 14:00 local time, because most Korean pros are nightowls regularly playing deep into the night, almost to the morning of the next day. This isn't a new phenomena from this year due to cross continental online play forcing them into this lifestyle, but has been the case already even when I lived in Korea in 2010 and 2011. Tournaments running late into the night still isn't ideal, but when servicing 3 different continents there is unfortunately some concessions you have to make.
And tournament organizers always pick Koreans because as it appears nobody even mention this except few people on the TL.net.
eDIT> Like look, I get why are Koreans being ignored. They don't bitch about it and they are in the worst time zone considering the viewers, but the silence around this and the fact that many are saying Koreans are fine with it and playing late at night is so fine for them without affecting the quality is ridiculous. At least mention it during the casting, damn it. The last person I heard talking about this during an event was Serral IIRC.
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I have to admit that for once there is a good point on this Koreans vs. World discussion. It is seldom or never mentioned that they have worse conditions for playing than others. Like deacon said, Serral mentioned that in some interview not long ago. It would be nice if that would be mentioned at times and give some credit to them as well.
That brings up another idea; Would there be a willing Organizer to set up an event with more Korea-friendly timeline, have qualifiers and all and grande finale ? Im pretty ignorant about this and Wardi, Olimo, Basetrade etc. have propably done numerous of them already. But in any case, have a big sponsor (Shopify ?), some fancy name (Korean Masters Cup), variety of channels and casters, and maybe even set up the final event brackets so that every group has for example 2 Koreans + 2 foreigners to make more fascinating storyline. Would be interesting to see how that would affect the results.
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On November 16 2020 20:37 Starcloud wrote:
I have to admit that for once there is a good point on this Koreans vs. World discussion. It is seldom or never mentioned that they have worse conditions for playing than others. Like deacon said, Serral mentioned that in some interview not long ago. It would be nice if that would be mentioned at times and give some credit to them as well.
Exactly, it's always the Koreans who are getting shafted in terms of scheduling. Now, in events like TSL, I can understand, but with ESL - the premier and official SC2 tournament globally - that is just not fair for the Koreans. No one brings it up as well. It's bizarre. Having watched SC2 tournaments over the past few years, there is a strong foreigner bias in the casters unfortunately. They may not realize it or are aware of it, I sense it in the interviews, pre-match discussions, banter etc. I can understand why that happens, since these casters know the players and can talk to the players, whereas they personally don't know the Korean players.
On November 16 2020 20:37 Starcloud wrote:
That brings up another idea; Would there be a willing Organizer to set up an event with more Korea-friendly timeline, have qualifiers and all and grande finale ? Im pretty ignorant about this and Wardi, Olimo, Basetrade etc. have propably done numerous of them already. But in any case, have a big sponsor (Shopify ?), some fancy name (Korean Masters Cup), variety of channels and casters, and maybe even set up the final event brackets so that every group has for example 2 Koreans + 2 foreigners to make more fascinating storyline. Would be interesting to see how that would affect the results.
The only event organizer that I have been doing this consistently is AlphaX. They are doing amazing things for the Korean scene. For example, King of Battles began at decent timeslots for the Koreans. I think Wardii has done some stuff in the same timeslots, but I honestly can't remember since he runs so many things.
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Tasteless and Artosis literally had to leave their country of origin and set up a whole new life in a different time zone to pursue their careers. Having Korean pros play tournaments at sub optimal hours doesn't even come close to that.
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On November 16 2020 23:08 mierin wrote:
Tasteless and Artosis literally had to leave their country of origin and set up a whole new life in a different time zone to pursue their careers. Having Korean pros play tournaments at sub optimal hours doesn't even come close to that.
That is besides the point. The discussion we're having comes from a competitive point of view: when having a tournament, ideally every player should play under the same conditions. That is possible offline, but not entirely possible online (for cross-server in particular).
The question then is how to make it as fair as possible (also considering the business side), and finally figure out who gets the short end of the stick.
And, as I argued above, I think it's important to acknowledge the facts of the outcome.
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are you serious? matchs will start at kr time 1am,it's even too late for progamers.
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On November 16 2020 23:08 mierin wrote:
Tasteless and Artosis literally had to leave their country of origin and set up a whole new life in a different time zone to pursue their careers. Having Korean pros play tournaments at sub optimal hours doesn't even come close to that.
... What? How is that even remotely relevant?
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EPT
