On November 11 2020 08:56 Xain0n wrote: I find extremely interesting that they point out they haven't received negative feedback from the koreans about playing late.
Also, isn't Super Tournament II scheduled to end the day TSL starts?
Because the Koreans always play late anyway. It was only bad when they had to play late after having GSL same/next day or so. It was mostly a community reaction claiming the late games affected the Koreans
If you are basing it off Liquipedia it’s probably because Liquipedia has the wrong dates for super tournament afaik
Suuuuuuuuuuuure, every human being is perfectly fine being awake late at night, that's why all the top sporting events start at 1 AM local time. C'mon...
Edit> i am a nightly person, I love being awake late at night and thanks to COVID I am(home office benefits). I am awake up to 3 AM local and I wouldn't touch the code(work as a programmer) after 10 PM because I know it's not a good idea. Sure, you may be awake, you may be streaming, you may respond like everything is fine. But hey, I'm not a Korean pro. (laddering != pro match IMO)
On November 12 2020 02:41 deacon.frost wrote: At least i wasn't watchign this day, gonna skip the rest and TSL for sure too(just read the time rules and ... well.. nto gonna support that)
What rules?
For TSL6 every play day will start at 5PM CET / 11AM EST / 8 AM PST. We understand that will make the tournament run very late for our Korean players but we have not been given any indications that that is an issue, and we’ll try to schedule their matches as early in the day as possible.
Nobody ever said it's an issue, as we expect every progamer is a nolifer who is perfectly fine playing a pro match at 1 AM earliest(if my adjustment is correct)
In korea yes its normal, they often ladder at 2 am/3am hence they are used to playing at those times, hence they have no issue with it. So what is the reason again you are not gonna watch tsl?
It's not normal unless you wake up at 11 PM. I am awake up to 3 AM local time and I wouldn't touch the code(programmer) after 10 pm. BEcause I know my brains limits. Laddering isn't exactly a pro match, right?
Edit> and yes, that's the reason.
Edit 2> but hey, maybe it is normal. What do i know? All I know is that I hate that reasoning and that's why I'm not watching it
11PM? Pretty sure people can still think more than 4 hours after waking up.
And lots of devs like to work at night--it's all about how you manage your sleep schedule. You're just projecting your standards onto other people.
Also I would assume they go to bed at like 4 AM-5AM after their ladder sessions/tournament and then wake up in the early afternoon..
On November 12 2020 02:41 deacon.frost wrote: At least i wasn't watchign this day, gonna skip the rest and TSL for sure too(just read the time rules and ... well.. nto gonna support that)
What rules?
For TSL6 every play day will start at 5PM CET / 11AM EST / 8 AM PST. We understand that will make the tournament run very late for our Korean players but we have not been given any indications that that is an issue, and we’ll try to schedule their matches as early in the day as possible.
Nobody ever said it's an issue, as we expect every progamer is a nolifer who is perfectly fine playing a pro match at 1 AM earliest(if my adjustment is correct)
In korea yes its normal, they often ladder at 2 am/3am hence they are used to playing at those times, hence they have no issue with it. So what is the reason again you are not gonna watch tsl?
It's not normal unless you wake up at 11 PM. I am awake up to 3 AM local time and I wouldn't touch the code(programmer) after 10 pm. BEcause I know my brains limits. Laddering isn't exactly a pro match, right?
Edit> and yes, that's the reason.
Edit 2> but hey, maybe it is normal. What do i know? All I know is that I hate that reasoning and that's why I'm not watching it
11PM? Pretty sure people can still think more than 4 hours after waking up.
And lots of devs like to work at night--it's all about how you manage your sleep schedule. You're just projecting your standards onto other people.
Also I would assume they go to bed at like 4 AM-5AM after their ladder sessions/tournament and then wake up in the early afternoon..
On November 12 2020 02:41 deacon.frost wrote: At least i wasn't watchign this day, gonna skip the rest and TSL for sure too(just read the time rules and ... well.. nto gonna support that)
What rules?
For TSL6 every play day will start at 5PM CET / 11AM EST / 8 AM PST. We understand that will make the tournament run very late for our Korean players but we have not been given any indications that that is an issue, and we’ll try to schedule their matches as early in the day as possible.
Nobody ever said it's an issue, as we expect every progamer is a nolifer who is perfectly fine playing a pro match at 1 AM earliest(if my adjustment is correct)
In korea yes its normal, they often ladder at 2 am/3am hence they are used to playing at those times, hence they have no issue with it. So what is the reason again you are not gonna watch tsl?
It's not normal unless you wake up at 11 PM. I am awake up to 3 AM local time and I wouldn't touch the code(programmer) after 10 pm. BEcause I know my brains limits. Laddering isn't exactly a pro match, right?
Edit> and yes, that's the reason.
Edit 2> but hey, maybe it is normal. What do i know? All I know is that I hate that reasoning and that's why I'm not watching it
11PM? Pretty sure people can still think more than 4 hours after waking up.
And lots of devs like to work at night--it's all about how you manage your sleep schedule. You're just projecting your standards onto other people.
Also I would assume they go to bed at like 4 AM-5AM after their ladder sessions/tournament and then wake up in the early afternoon..
Almost no pros play ladder past 1 AM in Korea
Hey, Wardi, Scarlett doesn't agree.
What do you want me to say? The Korean players have not complained about playing through the night during events such as SAHSC, previous TSL, etc. Koreans frequently reply to me about events at 4-5am.
Tournaments have to think about viewership etc. I personally don't agree with pushing the start time back so much, but if thats what the sponsors want / request then you either have no tournament or you make those adjustments. We're living in a weird time where travelling isn't possible. Online events are always going to be bad for some time zone.
I just stand by the fact that if the Korean players see this as a problem, they will speak up. TSL is clearly happy to listen to players and their ideas to improve the event.
On November 12 2020 06:29 WardiTV wrote: I just stand by the fact that if the Korean players see this as a problem, they will speak up. TSL is clearly happy to listen to players and their ideas to improve the event.
Then I don't think you understand Asian culture very much. Unless there is someone that they trust very much or are close to, in Asian culture it's very unusual for someone to "speak their mind", particularly if the other person is a foreigner.
I can totally understand why they schedule it the way that they do. Viewership matters. But it's bonkers to think that for the Koreans to be playing at 1++am that it doesn't impact their performance. It absolutely does, particularly at the top levels of play.
The only recent online tournament that I could think of that started at a reasonable time for the Koreans is King of Battles. They started at 8pm local time. That seems to have a big difference. Look at how many of them were in the playoffs and how much the foreigners performed subpar (including both Reynor/Serral).
During SAHSC Inno and other koreans started saying that it is starting to get late around 11pm CET. So they speak up (at least some of them) and apparently are fine with playing until at least 11pm CET (aka 6h after the TSL days start). Combining this with trying to let matches with koreans play first where possible it should be okayish. (I personally would have let the days start 1 or 2 hours earlier but it should be okay either way.)
You also have to consider that NA players could qualify too and for them 5pm CET means early morning so pushing it earlier has negative impact on those players and probably also on viewership. It is a tradeoff.
On November 12 2020 02:41 deacon.frost wrote: At least i wasn't watchign this day, gonna skip the rest and TSL for sure too(just read the time rules and ... well.. nto gonna support that)
What rules?
For TSL6 every play day will start at 5PM CET / 11AM EST / 8 AM PST. We understand that will make the tournament run very late for our Korean players but we have not been given any indications that that is an issue, and we’ll try to schedule their matches as early in the day as possible.
Nobody ever said it's an issue, as we expect every progamer is a nolifer who is perfectly fine playing a pro match at 1 AM earliest(if my adjustment is correct)
In korea yes its normal, they often ladder at 2 am/3am hence they are used to playing at those times, hence they have no issue with it. So what is the reason again you are not gonna watch tsl?
It's not normal unless you wake up at 11 PM. I am awake up to 3 AM local time and I wouldn't touch the code(programmer) after 10 pm. BEcause I know my brains limits. Laddering isn't exactly a pro match, right?
Edit> and yes, that's the reason.
Edit 2> but hey, maybe it is normal. What do i know? All I know is that I hate that reasoning and that's why I'm not watching it
11PM? Pretty sure people can still think more than 4 hours after waking up.
And lots of devs like to work at night--it's all about how you manage your sleep schedule. You're just projecting your standards onto other people.
Also I would assume they go to bed at like 4 AM-5AM after their ladder sessions/tournament and then wake up in the early afternoon..
Almost no pros play ladder past 1 AM in Korea
Hey, Wardi, Scarlett doesn't agree.
What do you want me to say? The Korean players have not complained about playing through the night during events such as SAHSC, previous TSL, etc. Koreans frequently reply to me about events at 4-5am.
Tournaments have to think about viewership etc. I personally don't agree with pushing the start time back so much, but if thats what the sponsors want / request then you either have no tournament or you make those adjustments. We're living in a weird time where travelling isn't possible. Online events are always going to be bad for some time zone.
I just stand by the fact that if the Korean players see this as a problem, they will speak up. TSL is clearly happy to listen to players and their ideas to improve the event.
The last DH we had in the RO8 1 fully Korean match, it was played as the last. Would it be so hard to play it as the first match of the day? IMO no, but the organizers put it as the last match of the day.
And yes, I agree, Koreans need to say something themselves.
But as it appears it's not as normal and OKish as it is claimed to be
On November 12 2020 02:43 TentativePanda wrote: [quote]
What rules?
For TSL6 every play day will start at 5PM CET / 11AM EST / 8 AM PST. We understand that will make the tournament run very late for our Korean players but we have not been given any indications that that is an issue, and we’ll try to schedule their matches as early in the day as possible.
Nobody ever said it's an issue, as we expect every progamer is a nolifer who is perfectly fine playing a pro match at 1 AM earliest(if my adjustment is correct)
In korea yes its normal, they often ladder at 2 am/3am hence they are used to playing at those times, hence they have no issue with it. So what is the reason again you are not gonna watch tsl?
It's not normal unless you wake up at 11 PM. I am awake up to 3 AM local time and I wouldn't touch the code(programmer) after 10 pm. BEcause I know my brains limits. Laddering isn't exactly a pro match, right?
Edit> and yes, that's the reason.
Edit 2> but hey, maybe it is normal. What do i know? All I know is that I hate that reasoning and that's why I'm not watching it
11PM? Pretty sure people can still think more than 4 hours after waking up.
And lots of devs like to work at night--it's all about how you manage your sleep schedule. You're just projecting your standards onto other people.
Also I would assume they go to bed at like 4 AM-5AM after their ladder sessions/tournament and then wake up in the early afternoon..
Almost no pros play ladder past 1 AM in Korea
Hey, Wardi, Scarlett doesn't agree.
What do you want me to say? The Korean players have not complained about playing through the night during events such as SAHSC, previous TSL, etc. Koreans frequently reply to me about events at 4-5am.
Tournaments have to think about viewership etc. I personally don't agree with pushing the start time back so much, but if thats what the sponsors want / request then you either have no tournament or you make those adjustments. We're living in a weird time where travelling isn't possible. Online events are always going to be bad for some time zone.
I just stand by the fact that if the Korean players see this as a problem, they will speak up. TSL is clearly happy to listen to players and their ideas to improve the event.
The last DH we had in the RO8 1 fully Korean match, it was played as the last. Would it be so hard to play it as the first match of the day? IMO no, but the organizers put it as the last match of the day.
Well if every other match has 1 Korean then surely that was correct though. KR vs KR is an even playing field (in all things but skill generally), both are affected by the fact it's late. Why start with that match then and instead have a KR vs EU/NA match as the last match of the day if it being so late would disadvantage the Korean?
On November 12 2020 02:49 deacon.frost wrote: [quote]
[quote]
Nobody ever said it's an issue, as we expect every progamer is a nolifer who is perfectly fine playing a pro match at 1 AM earliest(if my adjustment is correct)
In korea yes its normal, they often ladder at 2 am/3am hence they are used to playing at those times, hence they have no issue with it. So what is the reason again you are not gonna watch tsl?
It's not normal unless you wake up at 11 PM. I am awake up to 3 AM local time and I wouldn't touch the code(programmer) after 10 pm. BEcause I know my brains limits. Laddering isn't exactly a pro match, right?
Edit> and yes, that's the reason.
Edit 2> but hey, maybe it is normal. What do i know? All I know is that I hate that reasoning and that's why I'm not watching it
11PM? Pretty sure people can still think more than 4 hours after waking up.
And lots of devs like to work at night--it's all about how you manage your sleep schedule. You're just projecting your standards onto other people.
Also I would assume they go to bed at like 4 AM-5AM after their ladder sessions/tournament and then wake up in the early afternoon..
Almost no pros play ladder past 1 AM in Korea
Hey, Wardi, Scarlett doesn't agree.
What do you want me to say? The Korean players have not complained about playing through the night during events such as SAHSC, previous TSL, etc. Koreans frequently reply to me about events at 4-5am.
Tournaments have to think about viewership etc. I personally don't agree with pushing the start time back so much, but if thats what the sponsors want / request then you either have no tournament or you make those adjustments. We're living in a weird time where travelling isn't possible. Online events are always going to be bad for some time zone.
I just stand by the fact that if the Korean players see this as a problem, they will speak up. TSL is clearly happy to listen to players and their ideas to improve the event.
The last DH we had in the RO8 1 fully Korean match, it was played as the last. Would it be so hard to play it as the first match of the day? IMO no, but the organizers put it as the last match of the day.
Well if every other match has 1 Korean then surely that was correct though. KR vs KR is an even playing field (in all things but skill generally), both are affected by the fact it's late. Why start with that match then and instead have a KR vs EU/NA match as the last match of the day if it being so late would disadvantage the Korean?
For some reason I thought it was after a foreigner v foreigner, my bad then.
Just wanted to chime in on the conversation here. First of all, I think it's healthy to discuss starting times. Here's what we saw on our end when we reached out the the invited players. We specifically informed them of the start time each day. We promised them that we'd do our very best to schedule their games as early as possible (just like we did with TSL5) but we also said that might not always be possible. Especially as we get deeper into the tournament.
None of the invited players voiced any concerns about it. It might be that we're lacking a cultural understanding of Korea but, to us, them accepting an invite equals them also giving their stamp of approval.
One thing I'll admit we did not consider is if we schedule KR vs. KR first or if we schedule KR vs. foreigners first. So that's something we'll discuss internally.
On November 12 2020 20:01 Julmust wrote: Just wanted to chime in on the conversation here. First of all, I think it's healthy to discuss starting times. Here's what we saw on our end when we reached out the the invited players. We specifically informed them of the start time each day. We promised them that we'd do our very best to schedule their games as early as possible (just like we did with TSL5) but we also said that might not always be possible. Especially as we get deeper into the tournament.
None of the invited players voiced any concerns about it. It might be that we're lacking a cultural understanding of Korea but, to us, them accepting an invite equals them also giving their stamp of approval.
One thing I'll admit we did not consider is if we schedule KR vs. KR first or if we schedule KR vs. foreigners first. So that's something we'll discuss internally.
Appreciate the feedback, everyone.
I agree with you on that point. If they don't speak up who else is supposed to speak up then? Their prime minister?
EPT
