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On October 06 2020 07:43 esReveR wrote:
I personally think 5K+ mmr is "good".
I would like to point to the other side: (or rather tried to...)
Being in any league or "rating" is your value in current Meta...
My opinion is it doesn't define being good: + Show Spoiler +Page3: When you can do what you want to do, like macro properly what you want to macro, And when you can pull of a strategy you have in mind, properly, anytime, And your units do what you want them to do. Then, absolutely then for yourself I would say you are good.
(I am not good from my own definition.)
Because:
...Someone could be there because of cannon rushes.
Or someone with excellent macro and builds (can play the build he wants) and doesn't care about the meta builds and doesn't play the meta builds or doesn't care to grind online, I think is still good.
Conclusion:
There is "good" and there is "meta", two different animals
The 3rd thing is: "You can never be perfect" 10sec - Quote by TLO (thanks to the news here on teamliquid)
On October 06 2020 07:43 esReveR wrote:
As the poster above mentioned, this topic is very subjective and your results will vary based on the frame of reference of the respondent.
Thank you. Indeed it basically reflects more about the person posting and their ideals rather than getting an answer 
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Funny how some people don't understand the"everyone sucks" attitude. It is a recognition of the pointlessness and arbitrary nature of the question. You will get the same response if the question was "when do you stop being a bad player?"
If the question was, what level of skill could be regarded as exhibiting a certain level of competence, or of entertaining games to be produced, that would be a far more interesting question.
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On October 06 2020 08:08 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
You will get the same response if the question was "when do you stop being a bad player?"
I kinda agree. and my answer reflects that. (page before) Having said that, there is a difference between being not-bad and being "good" from philosophical view.
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I personally think 7.6k mmr is "good". So, no one is good. My frame of reference is God. We've been having deep philosophical conversations about SC2. Just now he said, "There can be no wrong opinions, cause they're ~all dumb."
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I think players above 6k are good and understand almost all aspects of the game.
Top players are just on another level.
Everyone makes mistakes but it depends of your mmr how many.
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To me, it is not until reaching top masters that a player starts to understand the game and most of its aspects. At that level, you finally realize you have so much more to learn and master and that is when you go "wow I actually really suck". When you reach the level where you finally realize just how deep this game is and how much you have to learn, that is finally when you become good imo. Everyone else sucks. They either think they know about the game or blame it on something that has noting to do with their improvement.
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There will be impossible to reach a consensus. Too many different aspects to consider if you try to look at it objectively. And then at the end, even if people were to reach a consensus to some kind of objectiv "measurement" then the problem will go to subjective opinions (at what level on this scale is a person "good"), what does "good" mean. etc.
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On October 06 2020 12:19 Wrathsc2 wrote:
To me, it is not until reaching top masters that a player starts to understand the game and most of its aspects. At that level, you finally realize you have so much more to learn and master and that is when you go "wow I actually really suck". When you reach the level where you finally realize just how deep this game is and how much you have to learn, that is finally when you become good imo. Everyone else sucks. They either think they know about the game or blame it on something that has noting to do with their improvement.
But then you think people will have the exact same mentality. Different people who play the same will have different opinions on how well they think they understand a game. A player at any of they higher league (or any league when i think about it) can think the way you describe it. I think you view is a romantic picture that people at the some level suddenly will see the light and find the truth about the game.
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On October 06 2020 19:42 aringadingding wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2020 12:19 Wrathsc2 wrote:
To me, it is not until reaching top masters that a player starts to understand the game and most of its aspects. At that level, you finally realize you have so much more to learn and master and that is when you go "wow I actually really suck". When you reach the level where you finally realize just how deep this game is and how much you have to learn, that is finally when you become good imo. Everyone else sucks. They either think they know about the game or blame it on something that has noting to do with their improvement. I think you view is a romantic picture that people at the some level suddenly will see the light and find the truth about the game.
At around 7.7k mmr is when a player attains SC enlightenment, at which point they begin to become one with the game, and the final evaluation of whether they truly suck is suddenly revealed to them in a mind-emptying flash of total awareness and comprehension of SC buddha-nature, wherein the noble truths ultimately are revealed to be:
"Yea I still kinda suck. Dis game hard af."
:-)
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Northern Ireland25347 Posts
On October 06 2020 08:08 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Funny how some people don't understand the"everyone sucks" attitude. It is a recognition of the pointlessness and arbitrary nature of the question. You will get the same response if the question was "when do you stop being a bad player?"
If the question was, what level of skill could be regarded as exhibiting a certain level of competence, or of entertaining games to be produced, that would be a far more interesting question.
It makes sense as a mentality to foster improvement, rather than resting one one’s laurels.
Rather a vague OP admittedly, deliberately so. While it wouldn’t entirely correlate with ladder MMR I suppose a decent level of competency would be mechanical execution in terms of micro/macro, following builds and a strategic plan and understanding that, and crucially in making adjustments to plans on the fly informed by scouting or unexpected events.
So for me anyway a player solidly executing a few builds they’ve taken from VoDs but who can’t adapt is competent at the core mechanics of the game, but isn’t yet in a strategic sense so wouldn’t quite yet be a good player.
As for entertaining games, good question. The high water mark is two very skilled players playing close to their best playing styles that don’t blind counter an opening, and trading blows. Which is quite rare, if player A is on top form and player B is just below theirs, it can lead to a rather one-sided affair as the margins are so slim.
I personally quite love weird clown fiesta games because the comfort of familiarity is thrown out and it’s not a situation often practiced, so players have to make decisions on the fly in a more improvisational manner.
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On October 06 2020 20:11 tigon_ridge wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2020 19:42 aringadingding wrote:On October 06 2020 12:19 Wrathsc2 wrote:
To me, it is not until reaching top masters that a player starts to understand the game and most of its aspects. At that level, you finally realize you have so much more to learn and master and that is when you go "wow I actually really suck". When you reach the level where you finally realize just how deep this game is and how much you have to learn, that is finally when you become good imo. Everyone else sucks. They either think they know about the game or blame it on something that has noting to do with their improvement. I think you view is a romantic picture that people at the some level suddenly will see the light and find the truth about the game. At around 7.7k mmr is when a player attains SC enlightenment, at which point they begin to become one with the game, and the final evaluation of whether they truly suck is suddenly revealed to them in a mind-emptying flash of total awareness and comprehension of SC buddha-nature, wherein the noble truths ultimately are revealed to be: "Yea I still kinda suck. Dis game hard af." :-)
hahaha ^^
Very poetic.
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On October 06 2020 20:11 tigon_ridge wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2020 19:42 aringadingding wrote:On October 06 2020 12:19 Wrathsc2 wrote:
To me, it is not until reaching top masters that a player starts to understand the game and most of its aspects. At that level, you finally realize you have so much more to learn and master and that is when you go "wow I actually really suck". When you reach the level where you finally realize just how deep this game is and how much you have to learn, that is finally when you become good imo. Everyone else sucks. They either think they know about the game or blame it on something that has noting to do with their improvement. I think you view is a romantic picture that people at the some level suddenly will see the light and find the truth about the game. At around 7.7k mmr is when a player attains SC enlightenment, at which point they begin to become one with the game, and the final evaluation of whether they truly suck is suddenly revealed to them in a mind-emptying flash of total awareness and comprehension of SC buddha-nature, wherein the noble truths ultimately are revealed to be: "Yea I still kinda suck. Dis game hard af." :-)
Some people believe that one player already attained this elusive state.
When asked how he feels he replied: "Mmm, it's nice".
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When you are winning in tournaments, then I think you can be categorized as "good", but I think everyones definition is different.
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On October 06 2020 19:42 aringadingding wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2020 12:19 Wrathsc2 wrote:
To me, it is not until reaching top masters that a player starts to understand the game and most of its aspects. At that level, you finally realize you have so much more to learn and master and that is when you go "wow I actually really suck". When you reach the level where you finally realize just how deep this game is and how much you have to learn, that is finally when you become good imo. Everyone else sucks. They either think they know about the game or blame it on something that has noting to do with their improvement. But then you think people will have the exact same mentality. Different people who play the same will have different opinions on how well they think they understand a game. A player at any of they higher league (or any league when i think about it) can think the way you describe it. I think you view is a romantic picture that people at the some level suddenly will see the light and find the truth about the game.
Right, and anyone below top masters/gm just doesn't understand imo. They think they do, but they just don't because they haven't experienced playing at such a high level. If a GM and a diamond league player watch a match between maru and serral (best of 5), I would bet money that they would describe how the games and overall match went very differently. This is why most people can tell that while Artosis is not perfect, he can describe games analytically way better than Tastosis because he simply keeps up with the meta and plays at a higher level. I believe good players would all watch the same match and describe it very similarly to each other because there is a level of understanding not attained until a GM. It's also why we enjoy pro players casting, they simply point things out that no other caster without experience can.
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On October 04 2020 06:21 [Phantom] wrote:
I think diamond players definitely know what they are doing and people underestimate all leagues in general. I think outside of the two lowest leagues players kinda know what they are doing. some may don't know, some may just do 1 buildorder well, but many of them could have another thing holding them back. Maybe someone he plays one match a day because he doesn't have much time. He watches the GSL, reads TL etc but he simply can't practice enough to increase his mechanical skill fast. Now, is this player good? Probably not, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have idea of what he is doing.
Some people also simply have a lower mechanicall skill cap. For you it might be masters, or diamond, or gold, who knows.
I think there are two levels of good, and of course it's relative.
The first level is of the casual player, the general population, aka, all of us. in this case, good I would say is GM, Masters, Diamond are good. (and maybe like I said above, anyone that's on the top of 50% of the playerbase could technically be considered good).
And then there's Pros, which you need to put them aside in a completely different category. There's no point in comparing them to the average player. They play all day, they get paid to play, the have no other major responsabilities, they can focus, they have practice partners etc. There's no comparison. Even then, there are different skill levels amongst pros too. In that sense, some pros could be bad relatively to another. Obviously, they would all be objectively good when compared to the playerbase, but they are so far removed from the average joe, that it's futile to compare them.
So yeah, Pros are good players. GSL winners are good players. That doesn't mean someone in master isn't a good player too.
Generally agree with this, I think most players are underrated and the competition from Gold+ is pretty decent
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On October 04 2020 06:16 ytherik wrote:
The minimal requirements to be considered "good" is to be a Korean and win at least one GSL Code S during the highest skilled era when Kespa teams were still around. These days everybody sucks and it is not possible for anyone to become even remotely good at the game.
On October 06 2020 00:02 scrotesque wrote:
You have to meet two conditions:
First, place highly in a legit competition, only GSL counts. No super tournaments, though.
Second, IdrA then has to decide if you're legit.
This is the truth
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EPT
