EPTEDIT: You'd obviously still have Protoss complaining when Zerg traps them in/out of their own base with a changeling.
Should Protoss have a "door"? - Page 2
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dUTtrOACh
Canada2339 Posts
EDIT: You'd obviously still have Protoss complaining when Zerg traps them in/out of their own base with a changeling. | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
On September 27 2020 06:49 dUTtrOACh wrote: In terms of map-making solutions, you can just have a pressure-plate controlled destructible plate that jumps up like a supply depot to plug a 2x2 gap. Shout-out to Dustin Browder. You can still get an Archon through that hole comfortably. EDIT: You'd obviously still have Protoss complaining when Zerg traps them in/out of their own base with a changeling. lmao this is a great idea. my vote is to make it look like a see-saw | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 27 2020 06:42 Archerofaiur wrote: Lets stay focused on the topic at hand. For those who support map map making solutions, what kind of map making solutions would make Protoss less vulnerable to zergling flood + drone drill. I mean, how about leaving a probe near your wall and if you see them drones running at ya build a ... something. This worked mostly because it was a surprising new tactic. | ||
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darklycid
3460 Posts
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Hunta15
United States81 Posts
Before you made this thread did you even consider that one shield battery would completely shut this down. | ||
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mikedupp
233 Posts
On September 27 2020 07:21 deacon.frost wrote: I mean, how about leaving a probe near your wall and if you see them drones running at ya build a ... something. This worked mostly because it was a surprising new tactic. Not a new tactic but it pops up once every few months and disappears for several months. It disappears because it rarely works. | ||
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La1
United Kingdom659 Posts
 good thing he didn't bet a shoe on it. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
That's your plan to nerf zerg? You weren't joking went you said you had no evidence. Also fyi maps of all types do get made--however only those that get picked by the TLMC judges (who are mainly pro players/community figures) are considered by Blizzard for ladder (with a few exceptions like GSL maps). So yeah you're probably not going to get 4p maps. | ||
[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
The problem is this is difficult to scout. Not only this but basically any type of zerg agression. Zerg agression sometimes looks very similar, and due to larva mechanic zerg sometimes can change from macro to agression instantly. I'm not sure people watches the literal GSL game on the OP. He did scout. But he didn't scout that push. Why? because the map has 3 paths that lead to the natural, zerg used the indirect one. Try to focus at what zest is doing, i'm not sure how much better he could have reacted. It was an insta win. Now, if this becomes super popular, there are indeed ways to stop this, but this isn't the first time protoss gate has been proposed, and it's for a reason, protoss is very suceptible agaisnt any kind of early agression, and more importantly they are HARD to scout, specially at pro level. Hence what happened in the GSL to Zests, and it wasn't only this game.... I don't think a literal door is the answer either. I don't think it's a completely imbalanced problem. But I would like to see this adressed somehow. This is a problem that has plagued protoss since WOL (hence mothership core, and shield batteries), and yet it seems it hasn't been completely adressed. | ||
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BabelFish1
186 Posts
On September 27 2020 08:36 ZigguratOfUr wrote: That's your plan to nerf zerg? You weren't joking went you said you had no evidence. Also fyi maps of all types do get made--however only those that get picked by the TLMC judges (who are mainly pro players/community figures) are considered by Blizzard for ladder (with a few exceptions like GSL maps). So yeah you're probably not going to get 4p maps. And that is probably the issue, these judges are nuts. Every map has a pervert pillar; for example. Blizzard even issued a statement about that... Maybe they need people who have previous experience in game design and do not have a conflict of interest as judges? That might, you know, make sense? Rest of the world frowns on conflict of interest, why shouldn't Blizzard? Personally, I'd just remove pervert pillars period. Ban them on Blizzard's end and see what happens. Larger maps or 4p maps are just 2 examples of ways to fix the issue on the map making side but as you've made clear, the issue might not be with the map makers. It could very well be the judges. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On September 27 2020 08:08 Hunta15 wrote: When people see a new strategy win they always assume it's broken. Before you made this thread did you even consider that one shield battery would completely shut this down. I considered lots of things (force fields, shield battery, full wall in, re-wall, not expanding, etc...). I wanted to know the communities thoughts. I specifically tried to structure this to avoid the impression that I was calling IMBA or making any statement that I wasn't actually making. If you watch the GSL clip, the topic is brought up by tastetosis. Sometimes when we bring things up for discussion its just that. Now since you brought it up, in the GSL example, do you think a shield batter would have changed the outcome? On September 27 2020 09:06 [Phantom] wrote: He did scout. But he didn't scout that push. Why? because the map has 3 paths that lead to the natural, zerg used the indirect one. Try to focus at what zest is doing, i'm not sure how much better he could have reacted. It was an insta win. What is interesting is in that match is that the drones came from a completely different path then the zerglings. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On September 27 2020 09:06 BabelFish1 wrote: And that is probably the issue, these judges are nuts. Every map has a pervert pillar; for example. Blizzard even issued a statement about that... Maybe they need people who have previous experience in game design and do not have a conflict of interest as judges? That might, you know, make sense? Rest of the world frowns on conflict of interest, why shouldn't Blizzard? Personally, I'd just remove pervert pillars period. Ban them on Blizzard's end and see what happens. Larger maps or 4p maps are just 2 examples of ways to fix the issue on the map making side but as you've made clear, the issue might not be with the map makers. It could very well be the judges. Note that Blizzard does also make small tweaks to maps. They've expanded reaper jump spots in the past for example. So if they really didn't want overlord pods they'd just remove them--but obviously there's also zerg players who like them. But this is a bit besides the point. Going back to the topic at hand, having more maps with a two building natural wall-offs (like on Deathaura) does make early ling stuff a bit weaker, though mapmaking doesn't really provide a general solution to the issue of lings always slipping in. | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On September 27 2020 09:06 [Phantom] wrote: I don't know why Teamliquid is taking this topic so lightly and as a joke. The problem is this is difficult to scout. Not only this but basically any type of zerg agression. Zerg agression sometimes looks very similar, and due to larva mechanic zerg sometimes can change from macro to agression instantly. I'm not sure people watches the literal GSL game on the OP. He did scout. But he didn't scout that push. Why? because the map has 3 paths that lead to the natural, zerg used the indirect one. Try to focus at what zest is doing, i'm not sure how much better he could have reacted. It was an insta win. Now, if this becomes super popular, there are indeed ways to stop this, but this isn't the first time protoss gate has been proposed, and it's for a reason, protoss is very suceptible agaisnt any kind of early agression, and more importantly they are HARD to scout, specially at pro level. Hence what happened in the GSL to Zests, and it wasn't only this game.... I don't think a literal door is the answer either. I don't think it's a completely imbalanced problem. But I would like to see this adressed somehow. This is a problem that has plagued protoss since WOL (hence mothership core, and shield batteries), and yet it seems it hasn't been completely adressed. Zest didn't scout very well this game tbh. Normally you will try to keep the probe around to see the third and send the first adept across the map to make sure Zerg is still making drones and not lings. He didn't even scout if Solar took a third. On top of that, he opened twilight and not stargate, which is much more vulnerable to these kinds of early pushes. A safety shield battery in this situation (where he is playing to blind) probably would have kept his adept alive long enough to make a full wall and win the game. edit: Not saying these kinds of builds aren't hard to scout, but this could have just as easily been a roach push the way Zest scouted this game and he would have been just as dead imo. | ||
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Chemist391
United States366 Posts
On September 27 2020 09:52 Pursuit_ wrote: Zest didn't scout very well this game tbh. Normally you will try to keep the probe around to see the third and send the first adept across the map to make sure Zerg is still making drones and not lings. He didn't even scout if Solar took a third. On top of that, he opened twilight and not stargate, which is much more vulnerable to these kinds of early pushes. A safety shield battery in this situation (where he is playing to blind) probably would have kept his adept alive long enough to make a full wall and win the game. edit: Not saying these kinds of builds aren't hard to scout, but this could have just as easily been a roach push the way Zest scouted this game and he would have been just as dead imo. The way the timing works out with the larva rounds, if you commit the adept scout across the map, you can see what's happening...*right* as it hits and kills you. Against these ling floods, it's way better (read: necessary) to have the adept at home. | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On September 27 2020 10:33 Chemist391 wrote: The way the timing works out with the larva rounds, if you commit the adept scout across the map, you can see what's happening...*right* as it hits and kills you. Against these ling floods, it's way better (read: necessary) to have the adept at home. This isn't true at all, adept pops at 2:35 and ling speed doesn't finish till 3:20 with a hatch gas pool opening (which Zest scouted it was with his probe). The bust didn't actually hit until 3:50 this game and Zest had 2 gateway units with a third about to pop when it hit. | ||
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mounteast0
59 Posts
Zest did scout the rush, he sees the zergling coming, but he did not scout the drone coming, which comes a little later and on a different path. Dealing with normal ling rush, zest did the correct thing, i.e. a unit on the wall and warp in additional unit as required, until the drone come. Is there anything zest can do, may be, but how can he scout the drone? I am not implying this is imbalance, but we need to think about what else zest can do first. Obviously, he can park a probe or pre-make a shield battery, however, what if that is not a all in, but a pressure? Is it possible for Zest to scout that? Is it possible to scout the drone pull, if yes, how? | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On September 27 2020 10:42 mounteast0 wrote: The problem is not just scouting, but scouting the rush with drone, as someone said in previous post, different zerg rush are very similar. Zest did scout the rush, he sees the zergling coming, but he did not scout the drone coming, which comes a little later and on a different path. Dealing with normal ling rush, zest did the correct thing, i.e. a unit on the wall and warp in additional unit as required, until the drone come. Is there anything zest can do, may be, but how can he scout the drone? I am not implying this is imbalance, but we need to think about what else zest can do first. Obviously, he can park a probe or pre-make a shield battery, however, what if that is not a all in, but a pressure? Is it possible for Zest to scout that? Is it possible to scout the drone pull, if yes, how? Zest did not scout the lings. He was caught completely off guard. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On September 27 2020 10:45 Pursuit_ wrote: Zest did not scout the lings. He was caught completely off guard. So I am just curious, if they scout that the zerg is making lings do you think the appropriate response is to build shield battery or full wall-in? If shield battery, what if lings run-by? If full wall-in, what is next step? | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
(plus the only 'difficulty' this race has in scouting and defending timing attacks is because they are 'entitled' to expand 1-2 bases more than their enemy - and this is despite them already having the best map vision of all races) | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On September 27 2020 12:12 Archerofaiur wrote: So I am just curious, if they scout that the zerg is making lings do you think the appropriate response is to build shield battery or full wall-in? If shield battery, what if lings run-by? If full wall-in, what is next step? In case you're genuinely asking here, in this specific situation both. If you go across the map with the adept and see Zerg only on ~4 drones at the natural and making lings, you get a shield battery and full wall asap (probably just recall the adept, too). Zest was up over 10 workers not even 4 minutes into the game and Solar pulled ~6 drones, if he survives any 2 base push is killing Solar. It would have been 16 drones vs 35 probes. Zest was going for adept glaives pressure anyway so he wouldn't have really even been behind where he would normally be with his build here if he full walled, he would just defend then harass with glaive adept (from warp prism) and follow up with 2 immortal 8 gate and win. | ||
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(probably GSL RO16 #A group)
