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My apologies if this is already being discussed somewhere else but for those who haven't seen + Show Spoiler +in the most recent round of GSL we see Zest "drone drilling" Solar to force open the Protoss's natural.
So with this in mind I wanted to pose a couple questions to the community
1) Do you think this is imbalanced? If so how?
2) If it is imbalanced, is this something that Protoss players may potentially learn to adapt over time? If so how?
3) If this is imbalanced and unable to be adapted do you think Protoss needs a "door" mechanic or that maps need to be changed accordingly? If you do think a "door" is needed, what would you propose?
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It's not imbalanced. If you see this coming with say an adept shade or a probe that sees the drones leaving you throw up 1 building in ur wall and create a full wall off and the zerg loses because he pulled so many drones. It's an all in that didn't get scouted and won that's all it was. Seen plenty of zergs do this to me on the ladder at 5k MMR and it's really not that strong.
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What do you think the minimum number of drones that is needed for this is?
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If Photon cannons, for example, lowered into the ground and allowed units to walk over them while not attacking, I could see that being reasonable.
If you give Protoss a freaking Null Gate from Heroes of the Storm...then yeah, that could be a balance issue lol.
Ideally, map makers just need to do a better job. They practically all follow the same cookie cutter templates with race favoritism features such as pervert pillars at the nat or reaper ledges.
Race favoritism features in maps is just stupid; this isn't Battlefleet Gothica: Armada where you have persistent armies and you're supposed to lose certain modes/maps because you are literally playing X race - followed by dominating another mode/map for the same reason, this is sc2, the maps should all benefit each race equally.
It also makes me wonder, on a side note, if this is part of why Blizzard's balance has been less stellar for the last 2ish years. You don't magically go from "Tankivacs were a mistake, MSC needs to be removed, Zealots need buffs" to "let's leave the BL bug in the game for a few years, bring back super infestors, introduce Thors that beat everything but small, cheap, ground units, etc" without something major happening internally.
To that end, yeah, I really wonder if the map makers are at least partially responsible for the mess that was sc2 balance earlier in 2020 and through pretty much all of 2019.
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The pylon couldn't act like a supply depot since that would buff cannon rushes, but shield batteries could.
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If you have either a shield battery or a canon you hold this stuff anyway, not even close, so such a change wouldn't be relevant against the specific build you are talking about. If you don't see this coming you usually will not have a shield battery/canon, and if you do see it coming you can just defend by rewalling.
(And no, it's almost certainly not imbalanced while there is the chance to scout with adept shades)
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On September 27 2020 05:03 BabelFish1 wrote:
If Photon cannons, for example, lowered into the ground and allowed units to walk over them while not attacking, I could see that being reasonable.
If you give Protoss a freaking Null Gate from Heroes of the Storm...then yeah, that could be a balance issue lol.
Ideally, map makers just need to do a better job. They practically all follow the same cookie cutter templates with race favoritism features such as pervert pillars at the nat or reaper ledges.
Race favoritism features in maps is just stupid; this isn't Battlefleet Gothica: Armada where you have persistent armies and you're supposed to lose certain modes/maps because you are literally playing X race - followed by dominating another mode/map for the same reason, this is sc2, the maps should all benefit each race equally.
It also makes me wonder, on a side note, if this is part of why Blizzard's balance has been less stellar for the last 2ish years. You don't magically go from "Tankivacs were a mistake, MSC needs to be removed, Zealots need buffs" to "let's leave the BL bug in the game for a few years, bring back super infestors, introduce Thors that beat everything but small, cheap, ground units, etc" without something major happening internally.
To that end, yeah, I really wonder if the map makers are at least partially responsible for the mess that was sc2 balance earlier in 2020 and through pretty much all of 2019.
Photon Cannon is nonsense, you need this most as Protoss in the early game, shield battery, everything earlier is nonsense and every tech later doesn't make much sense. We can talk batteries can do this after the warpgate tech is finished, but that's the latest. Otherwise it would be just anti-zergling measure
Edit> FFS, it was about that drone drilling stuff? How about you, i don't know, scout it?
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It astounds me that protoss players want to be able to hold a ling flood with no units.
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On September 27 2020 05:47 InfCereal wrote:
It astounds me that protoss players want to be able to hold a ling flood with no units.
Well, technically they can. Similary zerg can defend ling flood without any army supply.
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On September 27 2020 05:47 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2020 05:03 BabelFish1 wrote:
If Photon cannons, for example, lowered into the ground and allowed units to walk over them while not attacking, I could see that being reasonable.
If you give Protoss a freaking Null Gate from Heroes of the Storm...then yeah, that could be a balance issue lol.
Ideally, map makers just need to do a better job. They practically all follow the same cookie cutter templates with race favoritism features such as pervert pillars at the nat or reaper ledges.
Race favoritism features in maps is just stupid; this isn't Battlefleet Gothica: Armada where you have persistent armies and you're supposed to lose certain modes/maps because you are literally playing X race - followed by dominating another mode/map for the same reason, this is sc2, the maps should all benefit each race equally.
It also makes me wonder, on a side note, if this is part of why Blizzard's balance has been less stellar for the last 2ish years. You don't magically go from "Tankivacs were a mistake, MSC needs to be removed, Zealots need buffs" to "let's leave the BL bug in the game for a few years, bring back super infestors, introduce Thors that beat everything but small, cheap, ground units, etc" without something major happening internally.
To that end, yeah, I really wonder if the map makers are at least partially responsible for the mess that was sc2 balance earlier in 2020 and through pretty much all of 2019. Photon Cannon is nonsense, you need this most as Protoss in the early game, shield battery, everything earlier is nonsense and every tech later doesn't make much sense. We can talk batteries can do this after the warpgate tech is finished, but that's the latest. Otherwise it would be just anti-zergling measure Edit> FFS, it was about that drone drilling stuff? How about you, i don't know, scout it?
Photon cannons in BW did kind of act as a wall of sorts via the mechanic I described. It would change absolutely nothing, except for maybe making FFE/FGE/GFE more prevalent.
Wtf are you talking about? Where did I mention Widow Mines?
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On September 27 2020 05:57 BabelFish1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2020 05:47 deacon.frost wrote:On September 27 2020 05:03 BabelFish1 wrote:
If Photon cannons, for example, lowered into the ground and allowed units to walk over them while not attacking, I could see that being reasonable.
If you give Protoss a freaking Null Gate from Heroes of the Storm...then yeah, that could be a balance issue lol.
Ideally, map makers just need to do a better job. They practically all follow the same cookie cutter templates with race favoritism features such as pervert pillars at the nat or reaper ledges.
Race favoritism features in maps is just stupid; this isn't Battlefleet Gothica: Armada where you have persistent armies and you're supposed to lose certain modes/maps because you are literally playing X race - followed by dominating another mode/map for the same reason, this is sc2, the maps should all benefit each race equally.
It also makes me wonder, on a side note, if this is part of why Blizzard's balance has been less stellar for the last 2ish years. You don't magically go from "Tankivacs were a mistake, MSC needs to be removed, Zealots need buffs" to "let's leave the BL bug in the game for a few years, bring back super infestors, introduce Thors that beat everything but small, cheap, ground units, etc" without something major happening internally.
To that end, yeah, I really wonder if the map makers are at least partially responsible for the mess that was sc2 balance earlier in 2020 and through pretty much all of 2019. Photon Cannon is nonsense, you need this most as Protoss in the early game, shield battery, everything earlier is nonsense and every tech later doesn't make much sense. We can talk batteries can do this after the warpgate tech is finished, but that's the latest. Otherwise it would be just anti-zergling measure Edit> FFS, it was about that drone drilling stuff? How about you, i don't know, scout it? Photon cannons in BW did kind of act as a wall of sorts via the mechanic I described. It would change absolutely nothing, except for maybe making FFE/FGE/GFE more prevalent. Wtf are you talking about? Where did I mention Widow Mines?
What widow mines? Where in my post you see words "mine" or "widow"? oO
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On September 27 2020 05:58 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2020 05:57 BabelFish1 wrote:On September 27 2020 05:47 deacon.frost wrote:On September 27 2020 05:03 BabelFish1 wrote:
If Photon cannons, for example, lowered into the ground and allowed units to walk over them while not attacking, I could see that being reasonable.
If you give Protoss a freaking Null Gate from Heroes of the Storm...then yeah, that could be a balance issue lol.
Ideally, map makers just need to do a better job. They practically all follow the same cookie cutter templates with race favoritism features such as pervert pillars at the nat or reaper ledges.
Race favoritism features in maps is just stupid; this isn't Battlefleet Gothica: Armada where you have persistent armies and you're supposed to lose certain modes/maps because you are literally playing X race - followed by dominating another mode/map for the same reason, this is sc2, the maps should all benefit each race equally.
It also makes me wonder, on a side note, if this is part of why Blizzard's balance has been less stellar for the last 2ish years. You don't magically go from "Tankivacs were a mistake, MSC needs to be removed, Zealots need buffs" to "let's leave the BL bug in the game for a few years, bring back super infestors, introduce Thors that beat everything but small, cheap, ground units, etc" without something major happening internally.
To that end, yeah, I really wonder if the map makers are at least partially responsible for the mess that was sc2 balance earlier in 2020 and through pretty much all of 2019. Photon Cannon is nonsense, you need this most as Protoss in the early game, shield battery, everything earlier is nonsense and every tech later doesn't make much sense. We can talk batteries can do this after the warpgate tech is finished, but that's the latest. Otherwise it would be just anti-zergling measure Edit> FFS, it was about that drone drilling stuff? How about you, i don't know, scout it? Photon cannons in BW did kind of act as a wall of sorts via the mechanic I described. It would change absolutely nothing, except for maybe making FFE/FGE/GFE more prevalent. Wtf are you talking about? Where did I mention Widow Mines? What widow mines? Where in my post you see words "mine" or "widow"? oO
I read drone drilling as drilling claws lol. Oops!
What do you mean drone drilling? That's like...the least problematic thing in sc2...and if drone drilling wins you the game you're either a God or your opponent is new to RTS games lol. Either or, not sure how that matters?
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On September 27 2020 06:00 BabelFish1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2020 05:58 deacon.frost wrote:On September 27 2020 05:57 BabelFish1 wrote:On September 27 2020 05:47 deacon.frost wrote:On September 27 2020 05:03 BabelFish1 wrote:
If Photon cannons, for example, lowered into the ground and allowed units to walk over them while not attacking, I could see that being reasonable.
If you give Protoss a freaking Null Gate from Heroes of the Storm...then yeah, that could be a balance issue lol.
Ideally, map makers just need to do a better job. They practically all follow the same cookie cutter templates with race favoritism features such as pervert pillars at the nat or reaper ledges.
Race favoritism features in maps is just stupid; this isn't Battlefleet Gothica: Armada where you have persistent armies and you're supposed to lose certain modes/maps because you are literally playing X race - followed by dominating another mode/map for the same reason, this is sc2, the maps should all benefit each race equally.
It also makes me wonder, on a side note, if this is part of why Blizzard's balance has been less stellar for the last 2ish years. You don't magically go from "Tankivacs were a mistake, MSC needs to be removed, Zealots need buffs" to "let's leave the BL bug in the game for a few years, bring back super infestors, introduce Thors that beat everything but small, cheap, ground units, etc" without something major happening internally.
To that end, yeah, I really wonder if the map makers are at least partially responsible for the mess that was sc2 balance earlier in 2020 and through pretty much all of 2019. Photon Cannon is nonsense, you need this most as Protoss in the early game, shield battery, everything earlier is nonsense and every tech later doesn't make much sense. We can talk batteries can do this after the warpgate tech is finished, but that's the latest. Otherwise it would be just anti-zergling measure Edit> FFS, it was about that drone drilling stuff? How about you, i don't know, scout it? Photon cannons in BW did kind of act as a wall of sorts via the mechanic I described. It would change absolutely nothing, except for maybe making FFE/FGE/GFE more prevalent. Wtf are you talking about? Where did I mention Widow Mines? What widow mines? Where in my post you see words "mine" or "widow"? oO I read drone drilling as drilling claws lol. Oops! What do you mean drone drilling? That's like...the least problematic thing in sc2...and if drone drilling wins you the game you're either a God or your opponent is new to RTS games lol. Either or, not sure how that matters?
Check the spoiler in the 1st post. It's about PvZ in them GSL 
Basically, if it's all about those cheeses, learn how to scout it.
BTW anything with forge is wasted 150 minerals early in the game, especially FFE is tech-wise so behind it's not funny. The new mechanics made it obsolete as hell 
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On September 27 2020 05:03 BabelFish1 wrote:
pervert pillars at the nat
lol that's a great name for them
but yea I feel like we should try maps that don't have perfectly convenient spots for overlords to see everything for free
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On September 27 2020 06:20 Die4Ever wrote:lol that's a great name for them but yea I feel like we should try maps that don't have perfectly convenient spots for overlords to see everything for free
That one always got me, like, why does Zerg need that? You can literally fly your 1st Overlord to the nat and into dead space to get partial vision without losing it vs anything but a double marine opener off of 1 rax (that in itself is a bit of a tell that there's an allin coming). Or Zerg can drone scout *le gasp*.
I've no evidence but I really, really think map makers are sc2's greatest current problem - and unfortunately, when you have broken, biased maps - that impacts the stats which the balance team need to draw conclusions regarding the meta.
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On September 27 2020 06:25 BabelFish1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2020 06:20 Die4Ever wrote:On September 27 2020 05:03 BabelFish1 wrote:
pervert pillars at the nat lol that's a great name for them but yea I feel like we should try maps that don't have perfectly convenient spots for overlords to see everything for free That one always got me, like, why does Zerg need that? You can literally fly your 1st Overlord to the nat and into dead space to get partial vision without losing it vs anything but a double marine opener off of 1 rax (that in itself is a bit of a tell that there's an allin coming). Or Zerg can drone scout *le gasp*. I've no evidence but I really, really think map makers are sc2's greatest current problem - and unfortunately, when you have broken, biased maps - that impacts the stats which the balance team need to draw conclusions regarding the meta.
They can have a safe spot near the nat, i wonder as well why it has to be part of the wall. Although in some recent games somebody killed the ovie and used it for a liberator, died laughing  (probably GSL RO16 #A group)
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On September 27 2020 06:03 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2020 06:00 BabelFish1 wrote:On September 27 2020 05:58 deacon.frost wrote:On September 27 2020 05:57 BabelFish1 wrote:On September 27 2020 05:47 deacon.frost wrote:On September 27 2020 05:03 BabelFish1 wrote:
If Photon cannons, for example, lowered into the ground and allowed units to walk over them while not attacking, I could see that being reasonable.
If you give Protoss a freaking Null Gate from Heroes of the Storm...then yeah, that could be a balance issue lol.
Ideally, map makers just need to do a better job. They practically all follow the same cookie cutter templates with race favoritism features such as pervert pillars at the nat or reaper ledges.
Race favoritism features in maps is just stupid; this isn't Battlefleet Gothica: Armada where you have persistent armies and you're supposed to lose certain modes/maps because you are literally playing X race - followed by dominating another mode/map for the same reason, this is sc2, the maps should all benefit each race equally.
It also makes me wonder, on a side note, if this is part of why Blizzard's balance has been less stellar for the last 2ish years. You don't magically go from "Tankivacs were a mistake, MSC needs to be removed, Zealots need buffs" to "let's leave the BL bug in the game for a few years, bring back super infestors, introduce Thors that beat everything but small, cheap, ground units, etc" without something major happening internally.
To that end, yeah, I really wonder if the map makers are at least partially responsible for the mess that was sc2 balance earlier in 2020 and through pretty much all of 2019. Photon Cannon is nonsense, you need this most as Protoss in the early game, shield battery, everything earlier is nonsense and every tech later doesn't make much sense. We can talk batteries can do this after the warpgate tech is finished, but that's the latest. Otherwise it would be just anti-zergling measure Edit> FFS, it was about that drone drilling stuff? How about you, i don't know, scout it? Photon cannons in BW did kind of act as a wall of sorts via the mechanic I described. It would change absolutely nothing, except for maybe making FFE/FGE/GFE more prevalent. Wtf are you talking about? Where did I mention Widow Mines? What widow mines? Where in my post you see words "mine" or "widow"? oO I read drone drilling as drilling claws lol. Oops! What do you mean drone drilling? That's like...the least problematic thing in sc2...and if drone drilling wins you the game you're either a God or your opponent is new to RTS games lol. Either or, not sure how that matters? Check the spoiler in the 1st post. It's about PvZ in them GSL Basically, if it's all about those cheeses, learn how to scout it. BTW anything with forge is wasted 150 minerals early in the game, especially FFE is tech-wise so behind it's not funny. The new mechanics made it obsolete as hell
Depends, FFE still works vs Zerg but you also have to cannon rush their nat with it and go straight to a Safety Void Ray+ shield batteries in case Ravagers come knockin'
GFE is much, much better or even FGE for the reason you mentioned; doesn't delay your tech to an unreasonable, scary level imo.
But then again it's been like a year since I've played Protoss seriously, switched to Terran and am enjoying my lazy, dumb 1 base allins.
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On September 27 2020 06:28 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2020 06:25 BabelFish1 wrote:On September 27 2020 06:20 Die4Ever wrote:On September 27 2020 05:03 BabelFish1 wrote:
pervert pillars at the nat lol that's a great name for them but yea I feel like we should try maps that don't have perfectly convenient spots for overlords to see everything for free That one always got me, like, why does Zerg need that? You can literally fly your 1st Overlord to the nat and into dead space to get partial vision without losing it vs anything but a double marine opener off of 1 rax (that in itself is a bit of a tell that there's an allin coming). Or Zerg can drone scout *le gasp*. I've no evidence but I really, really think map makers are sc2's greatest current problem - and unfortunately, when you have broken, biased maps - that impacts the stats which the balance team need to draw conclusions regarding the meta. They can have a safe spot near the nat, i wonder as well why it has to be part of the wall. Although in some recent games somebody killed the ovie and used it for a liberator, died laughing (probably GSL RO16 #A group)
Lets stay focused on the topic at hand.
For those who support map map making solutions, what kind of map making solutions would make Protoss less vulnerable to zergling flood + drone drill.
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On September 27 2020 06:42 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2020 06:28 deacon.frost wrote:On September 27 2020 06:25 BabelFish1 wrote:On September 27 2020 06:20 Die4Ever wrote:On September 27 2020 05:03 BabelFish1 wrote:
pervert pillars at the nat lol that's a great name for them but yea I feel like we should try maps that don't have perfectly convenient spots for overlords to see everything for free That one always got me, like, why does Zerg need that? You can literally fly your 1st Overlord to the nat and into dead space to get partial vision without losing it vs anything but a double marine opener off of 1 rax (that in itself is a bit of a tell that there's an allin coming). Or Zerg can drone scout *le gasp*. I've no evidence but I really, really think map makers are sc2's greatest current problem - and unfortunately, when you have broken, biased maps - that impacts the stats which the balance team need to draw conclusions regarding the meta. They can have a safe spot near the nat, i wonder as well why it has to be part of the wall. Although in some recent games somebody killed the ovie and used it for a liberator, died laughing (probably GSL RO16 #A group) Lets stay focused on the topic at hand. For those who support map map making solutions, what kind of map making solutions would make Protoss less vulnerable to zergling flood + drone drill.
Larger maps, 4 spawn maps.
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1). Not imbalanced. If someone struggles with a mechanical aspect of the game, it's on them, not the game. The mechanical difficulty of protecting your entrances is proportional to your greed(size). Terran has a "door" and you see them outgrow their ability to cover their bases often.
Damn, I thought I had three questions to try and answer.
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EPT
