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TY & Stats on the Future and Decline of Korean SC2 - Page 2
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Vision_
877 Posts
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SamirDuran
Philippines895 Posts
On August 27 2020 21:41 Vision_ wrote: New blood in foreign scene ? what are they talking about ? they shoudl have asked them if they prefered before or after LotV... (and why ? ) there's astrea, future, maxpax, babymarine and a lot more.... Edit: Why the hell did i forgot clem and reynor... | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
On August 27 2020 21:41 Vision_ wrote: New blood in foreign scene ? what are they talking about ? they shoudl have asked them if they prefered before or after LotV... (and why ? ) theres a lot more competitive newcomers in the foreign scene than in the korean one, thats for sure. | ||
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Vision_
877 Posts
On August 27 2020 21:53 SamirDuran wrote: there's astrea, future, maxpax, babymarine and a lot more.... Edit: Why the hell did i forgot clem and reynor... With the lack of money in the big tournament, noone of them will reach a pro rank (or win a major tournament) Then maybe, if the game was less punishing (TY and Stats says "Hard") and more tactis i.e less violent and less apm-competitive. and also regarding the LotV economy, "it s not like if we haven t now 80 % of winrate if we go 3 bases instead of something nearly balance with two bases push like in HotS". That s said mirror match up are the only ones which kept this synergy | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7402 Posts
On August 27 2020 21:08 Wombat_NornIron wrote: Tennis is incredibly lucrative compared to most regular jobs, even quite low down. There’s still an appetite for 1v1 games, I mean look at the box office for Mayweather v McGregor for one. Team activities do tend to be more popular though, although I think that’s partly due to being able to support a team in perpetuity. Even Roger Federer has a sell by date, but Manchester United existed long before I was alive and will probably greatly outlive me. Plus a bit of the tribal element. eSports is a little different because not just is a higher proportion of the viewership active players, but they’re playing in the same ecosystem as even the top pros are. So I think both the social aspect as well as the less stress (for most) sees more playing team games and thus watching them. That said I think Starcraft (or some other RTS) loses some of its particular unique selling points if it’s made into a team game. It’s a game of raw mechanics, brains and gambits and I wonder if that’s just diluted if it’s converted, even into a very good game. Players have their own personalities and stories and very identifiable styles, from Has level cheddar to Stats level standard and everything in between. I mean some people, myself included prefer the mano o mano nature of a 1v1 game too, both to play and observe. I find it a lot easier to follow the flow of a 1v1 game and the important actions than a 5v5 one. Perhaps 1v1 combat is doomed to be an increasing niche, but it could remain a pretty chunky niche to fill. There’s no guarantee that changing things to a team game doesn’t just lose your core niche audience for no appreciable gain or even a decline. Stresslevel in e-sports 1v1 is extreme. I can't play 1v1 anymore cause I'm burned out after like 2 games. Can't play shooter or solo battle royal for the same reason. My heart rate goes through the roof ^^ That's why I enjoyed Heroes / LoL very much and still play CS:GO In "real" sports like Tennis I love playing 1v1 and hate playing team dependant games like footi. Funny how the mind works sometimes | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17805 Posts
On August 27 2020 15:25 luxon wrote: The other 50% as they address, is the high barrier to entry and the fact that 1v1 games will never be as compelling as team games. This is true in conventional sports too; compare tennis viewership to literally any team sport (basketball, football, soccer). In tennis the top 5 players live lucratively and the rest have to take part time jobs. This is hard to address; it would take a complete redesign of sc to make it an actual RTS team game, and current players probably won't like it. I'm pretty sure Floyd Mayweather and whoever the #1 combat sports athlete is in any era makes more money than almost all best team sport players. | ||
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Vision_
877 Posts
On August 27 2020 23:32 Harris1st wrote: Stresslevel in e-sports 1v1 is extreme. I can't play 1v1 anymore cause I'm burned out after like 2 games. Can't play shooter or solo battle royal for the same reason. My heart rate goes through the roof ^^ That's why I enjoyed Heroes / LoL very much and still play CS:GO In "real" sports like Tennis I love playing 1v1 and hate playing team dependant games like footi. Funny how the mind works sometimes Yes it seems than stress level is extremely high...... For a tactical game.... FPS like CS:GO should be a lot more stressfull than SC2 | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12133 Posts
On August 27 2020 23:38 JimmyJRaynor wrote: I'm pretty sure Floyd Mayweather and whoever the #1 combat sports athlete is in any era makes more money than almost all best team sport players. In the top 3 best payed athletes are 2 football players(yes, Ronaldo and Messi), #1 being Roger Federer. (so much for the Tennis) Then it follows with Neymar(football), LeBron James(basketball), Stephen Curry(basketball), Kevin Durant(basketball),Tiger Woods(golf), Kirk Cousin(american football) and Carson Wentz(amrican football) From the top 10 best payed athletes on the earth 8 are from team games. Source - forbes best payed athletes for 2020. Even if you add the next 10 we're adding 5 team sport athletes. Tyson Fury(fighting), Russel Westbrook(basketball), Lewis Hemilton(F1), Rory McIlroy(golf), Jared Goff(american football), Conor McGregor(fighting), James Harden(basketball), Giannis Antetokounmpo(basketball), Anthony Joshua(box) and Deontay Wilder (box) Soooooo, nope? I'm sorry for butchered names and if I added wrong sport to some person. So, from top 20 we have 8 being 1v1, with heavier focus on team games at the top. And I briefly scanned the next 20 and unless I made an error(which is possible) there are 7 non-team athletes. 5 of them from Tennis  Link to them articlez: https://www.forbes.com/athletes/#1e1a6e2755ae | ||
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joshie0808
Canada1024 Posts
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Swisslink
2958 Posts
On August 28 2020 01:03 deacon.frost wrote: In the top 3 best payed athletes are 2 football players(yes, Ronaldo and Messi), #1 being Roger Federer. (so much for the Tennis) Then it follows with Neymar(football), LeBron James(basketball), Stephen Curry(basketball), Kevin Durant(basketball),Tiger Woods(golf), Kirk Cousin(american football) and Carson Wentz(amrican football) From the top 10 best payed athletes on the earth 8 are from team games. Source - forbes best payed athletes for 2020. Even if you add the next 10 we're adding 5 team sport athletes. Tyson Fury(fighting), Russel Westbrook(basketball), Lewis Hemilton(F1), Rory McIlroy(golf), Jared Goff(american football), Conor McGregor(fighting), James Harden(basketball), Giannis Antetokounmpo(basketball), Anthony Joshua(box) and Deontay Wilder (box) Soooooo, nope? I'm sorry for butchered names and if I added wrong sport to some person. So, from top 20 we have 8 being 1v1, with heavier focus on team games at the top. And I briefly scanned the next 20 and unless I made an error(which is possible) there are 7 non-team athletes. 5 of them from Tennis Link to them articlez: https://www.forbes.com/athletes/#1e1a6e2755ae You‘re ignoring a lot to prove your point. First of all, the amount of players you need to keep a sustainable competition running is far higher for team based sports. The fact that we have more than 1/3 of all athletes in the top 20 coming from individual sports is kind of... a lot. Especially with golf and tennis being represented really well overall. And that‘s just from the absolute top income category. Secondly, there is obviously quite a bubble right now, where team based athletes are pushed a lot in terms of income. I don‘t know how long this is going to sustain, but it definitely does not take anything away from individual athletes. Tennis is healthy, golf is healthy and motorsports is healthy as well. Although the latter struggles quite a lot, but not because the athletes are paid too little, but because it is currently not the most „appropriate“ sports to commit to as a company. And of course you ignore the fact that women sports is pretty much exclusively held alive by individual sports. Literally the entire top 10 in women‘s sports is tennis, golf and badminton. Saying it is generally not popular ist just plain wrong. Especially the statement that only the top 5 tennis players can make a lucrative living out of their profession. The top 100 should be fine in Tennis. 100-200 should still be making a living. Behind that, it‘s gonna be hard. I think, what can be said in terms of individual sports is that the entry barrier is much higher than in team based sports. Tennis is freaking expensive to get started. So is golf. And so is formula 1. These are some of the most profitable individual sports out there and in all of them you need a lot of money to even have the training regime to get a career started. But again: that does not really matter because you don‘t need 18 to 20 times 20+ players in 5+ Leagues to even have a decent league in Europe (Soccer). And obviously a lot more to keep the smaller leagues running. StarCraft in the same way can easily survive with far less professional players than League of Legends or other team based eSports and still be popular. Tennis, golf, formula 1 prove that in the field of traditional sports. | ||
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CuSToM
United States1478 Posts
On August 27 2020 15:45 jpg06051992 wrote: It's always going to be niche. SC2 is chess which only the tactical and the astute appreciate, then you have things like Fortnite/PubG/whatever that appeal to the brainless masses. It's hilarious that this is still what SC2 fans say to themselves. | ||
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Back2Back
24 Posts
On August 28 2020 01:03 deacon.frost wrote: In the top 3 best payed athletes are 2 football players(yes, Ronaldo and Messi), #1 being Roger Federer. (so much for the Tennis) Then it follows with Neymar(football), LeBron James(basketball), Stephen Curry(basketball), Kevin Durant(basketball),Tiger Woods(golf), Kirk Cousin(american football) and Carson Wentz(amrican football) From the top 10 best payed athletes on the earth 8 are from team games. Source - forbes best payed athletes for 2020. Even if you add the next 10 we're adding 5 team sport athletes. Tyson Fury(fighting), Russel Westbrook(basketball), Lewis Hemilton(F1), Rory McIlroy(golf), Jared Goff(american football), Conor McGregor(fighting), James Harden(basketball), Giannis Antetokounmpo(basketball), Anthony Joshua(box) and Deontay Wilder (box) Soooooo, nope? I'm sorry for butchered names and if I added wrong sport to some person. So, from top 20 we have 8 being 1v1, with heavier focus on team games at the top. Mayweathers last actual fight was in 2017, so I'm not sure And I briefly scanned the next 20 and unless I made an error(which is possible) there are 7 non-team athletes. 5 of them from Tennis Link to them articlez: https://www.forbes.com/athletes/#1e1a6e2755ae https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbespr/2017/06/07/forbes-releases-its-2017-list-of-the-worlds-100-highest-paid-athletes/#7fbb3f1f7d3c Check this Forbes article, particularly this bit: Real Madrid’s Cristiano Ronaldo, with earnings of $93 million, retains the top spot for the second consecutive year. Before Ronaldo, the best-paid sports star was either Tiger Woods or Floyd Mayweather for 15 straight years. | ||
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slant
Romania95 Posts
On August 28 2020 06:26 CuSToM wrote: It's hilarious that this is still what SC2 fans say to themselves. ![[image loading]](https://pyxis.nymag.com/v1/imgs/225/61b/a6b1d3e45b7eb1b3b6255e801713b76c78-wojak-03.w710.jpg) | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27358 Posts
Amazing | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1960 Posts
the reading comprehension of articles on this forum and the comments that get thrown around on ladder on a daily basis are definitive evidence that sc2 players are as stupid as everyone else. i for one am proud to join the club of worthless slop. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27358 Posts
On August 28 2020 08:04 Mizenhauer wrote: the reading comprehension of articles on this forum and the comments that get thrown around on ladder on a daily basis are definitive evidence that sc2 players are as stupid as everyone else. i for one am proud to join the club of worthless slop. Having read your articles on this worthless hobby at least you can say you’re a connoisseur of slop. | ||
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XDEKSDEEXD
622 Posts
Dont get me wrong I love and play league too but there is no denying how much easier it is compared to SC2. To these kids, SC2 is simply too difficult to get into. In fact, RTS as a genre does not have a lot of playerbase for precisely this reason - it is just a challenging genre. Only those who have passion for the genre are willing to pick up and learn and watch SC2 EDIT: I am glad to hear that TY thinks SC2 is fine, to him, his worry is about the foreign talent beating korean talent | ||
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PresenceSc2
Australia4032 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27358 Posts
On August 28 2020 08:23 5ecured wrote: Many kids these days always look for the easy way to earn money/fame/whatever, so naturally, easier games like league appeal so much more. Dont get me wrong I love and play league too but there is no denying how much easier it is compared to SC2. To these kids, SC2 is simply too difficult to get into. In fact, RTS as a genre does not have a lot of playerbase for precisely this reason - it is just a challenging genre. Only those who have passion for the genre are willing to pick up and learn and watch SC2 It is challenging, not just because of the game but hard to get into full stop for kids these days, the younger ones especially. More households these days have computers than ever before for sure, but many make do with a tablet or maybe a laptop over a desktop PC. My kid quite likes watching it, has an interest but his general computer chops aren’t there yet for him to even play at a really low level, he likes spending time at mine to ‘go on the computer’ so it’s not from a lack of enthusiasm. He had some moderate success and much fun playing Unreal Tournament though (he’s 7) When I was 8/9 and first playing SC I had 2 PCs right beside each other and a brother 2 years younger and we sucked ass but had a lot of fun playing vs the AI. One was on a custom giant island map I made and we played in a team vs a bunch of AI, took 10 hours of painful mouse-only play but fun was had! I mean you can play on a laptop with a mouse too, but it’s such a PC centric genre too, that’s a factor as well (with younger people, not people who are teens/early 20s now) It also doesn’t help that RTS isn’t exactly big even on a casual level, there’s not much of a gateway drug into SC hardcore grinding kind of pathway going. There’s quite a few notable SC2 pros whose bio includes having a father who played SC that got them into the game, perhaps a sustainable generational thing will happen on that basis. I mean 10-15 years ago talking with fellow gamers about SC I usually said ‘AoE but in space’, or vice-versa, or its like CnC. Usually it would click after a couple of RTS comparisons. Now with younger folks I’m finding I have to explain the concept of an RTS, or say something like ‘It plays like a MOBA but you control lots of units at once and you have to mine and build buildings.’ I’m not sure the current younglings lack the appetite for the grind, but the pathways are so different they don’t even get to try the game to see if they like it. Every generation has the kids who enjoyed their piano lessons and can play a ditty and those who didn’t and can barely mash keys. | ||
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col_jung
139 Posts
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