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Let me first say that I have always hated the widow mine. As a Terran scrub on ladder, I never could control the mines to do as I wanted. When even Bomber could not control the mines well, what hope is there for the rest of us?
Well, that's what makes the mines great. In the right hands, mines can do terrible, terrible damage. In the wrong hands, it'll still do terrible, terrible (friendly-fire) damage. And for most of us, it will be somewhere in between.
Widow mines differentiate the best from the very good Terrans.
This is also true for the opposing side. Mines can do very little damage if handled correctly. Even without detection, the top players are able to spot the slight animation before a mine fires - and protect their mutalisks or oracles. Even when the mines do fire, their splits are on point - well defended mine drops usually kill only 1 or 2 sacrificial probes. Lings can drag mine hits into the enemy lines.
Widow mines, again, differentiate the best from the very good non-Terrans.
So, why the hate? Why are mines so universally condemned by both Terrans as unreliable, friendly-fire monsters and non-Terrans as game-ending eviscerator of mineral lines?
Precisely because it raises the skill-ceiling for all parties involved. And our egos can't handle it. So my dear fellow whiners, let's take a hard look at the hate for widow mines and reflect on how it can influence the health of the scene.
Here's my humble opinion. Anything that creates more opportunities for the top-most players to shine; anything that makes us plebs wide-eyed in admiration for feats of skill and talent; anything that makes us groan or cheer in a roller-coaster of emotions - deserves love (even if its begrudging) , not hate.
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Players can also show their skills in ways that don't involve instantly losing the game to a moment of inattention. SC2 has long had a problem with game-ending moments, and widow mines are part of it. Mind you they (and disruptors) are probably among the more benign game-ending things that the game has had, but that doesn't make them a 'great' unit. It's far from the worst unit though.
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**** the widow mine.
It's an awful unit, that exists to suddenly end games out the blue, almost cannot be cost-inefficient, and is just immensely frustrating to play against. Playing against a Terran using mines you just always accept the risk you may suddenly lose to 4 mines under a tank or some other nonsense.
It wouldn't be such an issue were it not for them also being so cheap, reactorable, and available pretty much the whole game.
The fact that the balance team wants to buff them is concerning, to say the least.
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On May 18 2020 05:32 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Players can also show their skills in ways that don't involve instantly losing the game to a moment of inattention. SC2 has long had a problem with game-ending moments, and widow mines are part of it. Mind you they (and disruptors) are probably among the more benign game-ending things that the game has had, but that doesn't make them a 'great' unit. It's far from the worst unit though.
Moment of inattention vs storms? Moment of inattention vs banes? Moment of inattention vs tanks?
We have accepted these to be standards for skill and talent. Why not mines?
On May 18 2020 05:44 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:
**** the widow mine.
It's an awful unit, that exists to suddenly end games out the blue, almost cannot be cost-inefficient, and is just immensely frustrating to play against. Playing against a Terran using mines you just always accept the risk you may suddenly lose to 4 mines under a tank or some other nonsense.
It wouldn't be such an issue were it not for them also being so cheap, reactorable [pentarp: as in able to produce in mass], and available pretty much the whole game.
The fact that the balance team wants to buff them is concerning, to say the least.
Banelings also fit the criteria for why you think mines are such an issue.
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mines are great and almost always create exciting gameplay. some of the best games in sc2 involve tvz bio mines. they just do what tanks cant and that is be cost effective vs lings and zealots. there are tons of units that end games super fast, thats just how sc has always been.
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I think units like the widow mine or the disruptor have been added to emulate the feeling sc1 Reavers have.
The game design decisions in sc2 factor in the esport side and sc1 reavers often were hype moments because of the uncertainty of the damage.
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You are funny Pentarp. Next tell us why there is nothing wrong with swarmhosts please.
User was warned for this post.
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On May 18 2020 05:45 Pentarp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2020 05:32 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Players can also show their skills in ways that don't involve instantly losing the game to a moment of inattention. SC2 has long had a problem with game-ending moments, and widow mines are part of it. Mind you they (and disruptors) are probably among the more benign game-ending things that the game has had, but that doesn't make them a 'great' unit. It's far from the worst unit though. Moment of inattention vs storms? Moment of inattention vs banes? Moment of inattention vs tanks? We have accepted these to be standards for skill and talent. Why not mines? Show nested quote +On May 18 2020 05:44 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:
**** the widow mine.
It's an awful unit, that exists to suddenly end games out the blue, almost cannot be cost-inefficient, and is just immensely frustrating to play against. Playing against a Terran using mines you just always accept the risk you may suddenly lose to 4 mines under a tank or some other nonsense.
It wouldn't be such an issue were it not for them also being so cheap, reactorable [pentarp: as in able to produce in mass], and available pretty much the whole game.
The fact that the balance team wants to buff them is concerning, to say the least. Banelings also fit the criteria for why you think mines are such an issue.
The word also was important there.
Banes are often cost ineffective, rarely kill things from cloak (and require good map awareness to do so) and have much less ability to launch sudden death out of nowhere. Banes normally have to run into your army to kill it, which makes the instalose potential rather less sharp, especially if you have a it of vision around the map (they also can't kill air units, which have a tendancy to clump).
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On May 18 2020 05:57 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2020 05:45 Pentarp wrote:On May 18 2020 05:32 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Players can also show their skills in ways that don't involve instantly losing the game to a moment of inattention. SC2 has long had a problem with game-ending moments, and widow mines are part of it. Mind you they (and disruptors) are probably among the more benign game-ending things that the game has had, but that doesn't make them a 'great' unit. It's far from the worst unit though. Moment of inattention vs storms? Moment of inattention vs banes? Moment of inattention vs tanks? We have accepted these to be standards for skill and talent. Why not mines? On May 18 2020 05:44 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:
**** the widow mine.
It's an awful unit, that exists to suddenly end games out the blue, almost cannot be cost-inefficient, and is just immensely frustrating to play against. Playing against a Terran using mines you just always accept the risk you may suddenly lose to 4 mines under a tank or some other nonsense.
It wouldn't be such an issue were it not for them also being so cheap, reactorable [pentarp: as in able to produce in mass], and available pretty much the whole game.
The fact that the balance team wants to buff them is concerning, to say the least. Banelings also fit the criteria for why you think mines are such an issue. The word also was important there. Banes are often cost ineffective, rarely kill things from cloak (and require good map awareness to do so) and have much less ability to launch sudden death out of nowhere. Banes normally have to run into your army to kill it, which makes the instalose potential rather less sharp, especially if you have a it of vision around the map (they also can't kill air units, which have a tendancy to clump).
Excuse me for bringing this up, but the damage banelings can do for their supply can be equally silly to that if WMs. The mines seems to have been introduced as an equalizer for a gameplay style I have problems with.
Watching Maru play like a god against banelings in the gsl and finally getting some insane WM hits to seal the game made Terran look OP, but nobody else has that combination of micro, multi tasking, awareness and macro. I still would have liked to balanced TvZ around better baneling counters and just remove the mines. Helbats, cyclones and helions are better designed units which can do their job imo.
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On May 18 2020 05:51 naughtDE wrote:
You are funny Pentarp. Next tell us why there is nothing wrong with swarmhosts please.
Wait what you are actually comparing a unit that can be very cost effective but can also do extreme friendly fire damage to a swarmhost that 99% of the times gets value and is far far more reliable?
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On May 18 2020 06:16 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2020 05:57 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:On May 18 2020 05:45 Pentarp wrote:On May 18 2020 05:32 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Players can also show their skills in ways that don't involve instantly losing the game to a moment of inattention. SC2 has long had a problem with game-ending moments, and widow mines are part of it. Mind you they (and disruptors) are probably among the more benign game-ending things that the game has had, but that doesn't make them a 'great' unit. It's far from the worst unit though. Moment of inattention vs storms? Moment of inattention vs banes? Moment of inattention vs tanks? We have accepted these to be standards for skill and talent. Why not mines? On May 18 2020 05:44 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:
**** the widow mine.
It's an awful unit, that exists to suddenly end games out the blue, almost cannot be cost-inefficient, and is just immensely frustrating to play against. Playing against a Terran using mines you just always accept the risk you may suddenly lose to 4 mines under a tank or some other nonsense.
It wouldn't be such an issue were it not for them also being so cheap, reactorable [pentarp: as in able to produce in mass], and available pretty much the whole game.
The fact that the balance team wants to buff them is concerning, to say the least. Banelings also fit the criteria for why you think mines are such an issue. The word also was important there. Banes are often cost ineffective, rarely kill things from cloak (and require good map awareness to do so) and have much less ability to launch sudden death out of nowhere. Banes normally have to run into your army to kill it, which makes the instalose potential rather less sharp, especially if you have a it of vision around the map (they also can't kill air units, which have a tendancy to clump). Excuse me for bringing this up, but the damage banelings can do for their supply can be equally silly to that if WMs. The mines seems to have been introduced as an equalizer for a gameplay style I have problems with. Watching Maru play like a god against banelings in the gsl and finally getting some insane WM hits to seal the game made Terran look OP, but nobody else has that combination of micro, multi tasking, awareness and macro. I still would have liked to balanced TvZ around better baneling counters and just remove the mines. Helbats, cyclones and helions are better designed units which can do their job imo.
While I appreciate the support, I have to disagree that hellbats/hellions and cyclones are better designed to counter banelings. A change/buff to those units would result in a flat increase to the power of Terrans throughout the skill curve. They are essentially a-move units (except cyclones but barely).
Widow mines' power level scales with the skill level of both players in a game.
Mines do a much better job of differentiating the skill level of the Terran compared to a Hellbat. Mines punish a lack of control. A poorly controlled Hellbat will be ineffective, but not punishing. On the opposing side, unlike hellbats, mines can be dragged into Terran armies. This also helps showcase the skill level of a non-Terran.
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Mines are great because the alternative is tanks. Mines produce faster, more exciting, and more dynamic games than tanks do. Multiprong is more entertaining than deathballs.
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On May 18 2020 07:05 Pentarp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2020 06:16 Slydie wrote:On May 18 2020 05:57 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:On May 18 2020 05:45 Pentarp wrote:On May 18 2020 05:32 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Players can also show their skills in ways that don't involve instantly losing the game to a moment of inattention. SC2 has long had a problem with game-ending moments, and widow mines are part of it. Mind you they (and disruptors) are probably among the more benign game-ending things that the game has had, but that doesn't make them a 'great' unit. It's far from the worst unit though. Moment of inattention vs storms? Moment of inattention vs banes? Moment of inattention vs tanks? We have accepted these to be standards for skill and talent. Why not mines? On May 18 2020 05:44 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:
**** the widow mine.
It's an awful unit, that exists to suddenly end games out the blue, almost cannot be cost-inefficient, and is just immensely frustrating to play against. Playing against a Terran using mines you just always accept the risk you may suddenly lose to 4 mines under a tank or some other nonsense.
It wouldn't be such an issue were it not for them also being so cheap, reactorable [pentarp: as in able to produce in mass], and available pretty much the whole game.
The fact that the balance team wants to buff them is concerning, to say the least. Banelings also fit the criteria for why you think mines are such an issue. The word also was important there. Banes are often cost ineffective, rarely kill things from cloak (and require good map awareness to do so) and have much less ability to launch sudden death out of nowhere. Banes normally have to run into your army to kill it, which makes the instalose potential rather less sharp, especially if you have a it of vision around the map (they also can't kill air units, which have a tendancy to clump). Excuse me for bringing this up, but the damage banelings can do for their supply can be equally silly to that if WMs. The mines seems to have been introduced as an equalizer for a gameplay style I have problems with. Watching Maru play like a god against banelings in the gsl and finally getting some insane WM hits to seal the game made Terran look OP, but nobody else has that combination of micro, multi tasking, awareness and macro. I still would have liked to balanced TvZ around better baneling counters and just remove the mines. Helbats, cyclones and helions are better designed units which can do their job imo. While I appreciate the support, I have to disagree that hellbats/hellions and cyclones are better designed to counter banelings. A change/buff to those units would result in a flat increase to the power of Terrans throughout the skill curve. They are essentially a-move units (except cyclones but barely). Widow mines' power level scales with the skill level of both players in a game.Mines do a much better job of differentiating the skill level of the Terran compared to a Hellbat. Mines punish a lack of control. A poorly controlled Hellbat will be ineffective, but not punishing. On the opposing side, unlike hellbats, mines can be dragged into Terran armies. This also helps showcase the skill level of a non-Terran.
I agree so much not to the underlined phrase.
While storm and banes require good positioning and engagement, mines can be randomely burrowed and we'll see what happens.
This is especially true for random mines in the middle of the map. No micro or map awareness required from the mine user, but the other one is looking away at the wrong half second and can lose 10+ supply.
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**** the widow mine.
It's an awful unit, that exists to suddenly end games out the blue, almost cannot be cost-inefficient, and is just immensely frustrating to play against. Playing against a Terran using mines you just always accept the risk you may suddenly lose to 4 mines under a tank or some other nonsense.
It wouldn't be such an issue were it not for them also being so cheap, restorable, and available pretty much the whole game.
The fact that the balance team wants to buff them is concerning, to say the least.
I think this is correct. But what Blizzard chose because Terran's splash ability is so low. With a relatively weak tank, this is Blizzard's thinking. These criticisms have remained since the beta and will continue. They don't balance the way we'd like.
I think the mine is too random to be reliable, so it has to be high DPS to compensate. I think its a poorly designed unit in the over all concept of Terran.
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United Kingdom20278 Posts
Widow mine is my most hated unit design of any race. I hope it gets the HOTS Swarmhost treatment.
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i wish they would redesign mines to have something like concussive shell slowdown instead of just mass damage so they have more of a zone control role instead of "everything either dies or doesn't". then maybe buff banshees against protoss or something so terrans have stable harassment. T should be able to harass, but mine drops are stupid, and it's a bad interaction for casual players
if mines had slowdown they could potentially synergize with defensive bio/siege play in a way that punishes a player who a-moves into microed defensive units, but doesn't erase 15 units at once based on RNG
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On May 18 2020 05:26 Pentarp wrote:
Here's my humble opinion. Anything that creates more opportunities for the top-most players to shine; anything that makes us plebs wide-eyed in admiration for feats of skill and talent; anything that makes us groan or cheer in a roller-coaster of emotions - deserves love (even if its begrudging) , not hate.
The concept of widow-mine is far from creating anything but chaos, being it doing friendly fire or killing 30 lings/banelings. Its just a disaster of a unit, which definitely doesnt promote skill but randomness and chaos. It can end the game in 1 second of non-observation and in lower leagues it kills mineral lines with no skill whatsoever. Its just a horrible unit in every way possible. Even more horrible than disruptors, which is enough said. You burrow 2-3 mines around the map in any phase of the game and just go back to macro. Then suddenly you hear Boom! Headshot! and your opponent has 10-15 supply less units without you doing any action to cause it.
On May 18 2020 05:32 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Players can also show their skills in ways that don't involve instantly losing the game to a moment of inattention. SC2 has long had a problem with game-ending moments, and widow mines are part of it. Mind you they (and disruptors) are probably among the more benign game-ending things that the game has had, but that doesn't make them a 'great' unit. It's far from the worst unit though.
Yeah, exactly this, although I still think WM is by far the worst unit in SC2. Disruptor is a "good" second place.
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On May 18 2020 08:05 AbouSV wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2020 07:05 Pentarp wrote:On May 18 2020 06:16 Slydie wrote:On May 18 2020 05:57 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:On May 18 2020 05:45 Pentarp wrote:On May 18 2020 05:32 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Players can also show their skills in ways that don't involve instantly losing the game to a moment of inattention. SC2 has long had a problem with game-ending moments, and widow mines are part of it. Mind you they (and disruptors) are probably among the more benign game-ending things that the game has had, but that doesn't make them a 'great' unit. It's far from the worst unit though. Moment of inattention vs storms? Moment of inattention vs banes? Moment of inattention vs tanks? We have accepted these to be standards for skill and talent. Why not mines? On May 18 2020 05:44 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:
**** the widow mine.
It's an awful unit, that exists to suddenly end games out the blue, almost cannot be cost-inefficient, and is just immensely frustrating to play against. Playing against a Terran using mines you just always accept the risk you may suddenly lose to 4 mines under a tank or some other nonsense.
It wouldn't be such an issue were it not for them also being so cheap, reactorable [pentarp: as in able to produce in mass], and available pretty much the whole game.
The fact that the balance team wants to buff them is concerning, to say the least. Banelings also fit the criteria for why you think mines are such an issue. The word also was important there. Banes are often cost ineffective, rarely kill things from cloak (and require good map awareness to do so) and have much less ability to launch sudden death out of nowhere. Banes normally have to run into your army to kill it, which makes the instalose potential rather less sharp, especially if you have a it of vision around the map (they also can't kill air units, which have a tendancy to clump). Excuse me for bringing this up, but the damage banelings can do for their supply can be equally silly to that if WMs. The mines seems to have been introduced as an equalizer for a gameplay style I have problems with. Watching Maru play like a god against banelings in the gsl and finally getting some insane WM hits to seal the game made Terran look OP, but nobody else has that combination of micro, multi tasking, awareness and macro. I still would have liked to balanced TvZ around better baneling counters and just remove the mines. Helbats, cyclones and helions are better designed units which can do their job imo. While I appreciate the support, I have to disagree that hellbats/hellions and cyclones are better designed to counter banelings. A change/buff to those units would result in a flat increase to the power of Terrans throughout the skill curve. They are essentially a-move units (except cyclones but barely). Widow mines' power level scales with the skill level of both players in a game.Mines do a much better job of differentiating the skill level of the Terran compared to a Hellbat. Mines punish a lack of control. A poorly controlled Hellbat will be ineffective, but not punishing. On the opposing side, unlike hellbats, mines can be dragged into Terran armies. This also helps showcase the skill level of a non-Terran. I agree so much not to the underlined phrase. While storm and banes require good positioning and engagement, mines can be randomely burrowed and we'll see what happens. This is especially true for random mines in the middle of the map. No micro or map awareness required from the mine user, but the other one is looking away at the wrong half second and can lose 10+ supply.
That is what will differentiate the skill level of the opponents. Good opponents will send small lings or observers to sweep the map before getting hit by a random mine. And mines are never really random, they are placed where the Terran expects units to path through. And the supply and resource cost of spreading out mines are not insignificant at the professional level.
On May 18 2020 08:56 brickrd wrote:
i wish they would redesign mines to have something like concussive shell slowdown instead of just mass damage so they have more of a zone control role instead of "everything either dies or doesn't". then maybe buff banshees against protoss or something so terrans have stable harassment. T should be able to harass, but mine drops are stupid, and it's a bad interaction for casual players
if mines had slowdown they could potentially synergize with defensive bio/siege play in a way that punishes a player who a-moves into microed defensive units, but doesn't erase 15 units at once based on RNG
Ravens got the same treatment. They were turned into a support unit. As a result, Terrans lost tremendous late-game power. Buffing banshees will be the same as buffing hellbats - a flat increase to power level. And I cannot imagine how banshees can be changed to be relevant vs ling/bane/muta.
On May 18 2020 09:14 Starcloud wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2020 05:26 Pentarp wrote:
Here's my humble opinion. Anything that creates more opportunities for the top-most players to shine; anything that makes us plebs wide-eyed in admiration for feats of skill and talent; anything that makes us groan or cheer in a roller-coaster of emotions - deserves love (even if its begrudging) , not hate. The concept of widow-mine is far from creating anything but chaos, being it doing friendly fire or killing 30 lings/banelings. Its just a disaster of a unit, which definitely doesnt promote skill but randomness and chaos. It can end the game in 1 second of non-observation and in lower leagues it kills mineral lines with no skill whatsoever. Its just a horrible unit in every way possible. Even more horrible than disruptors, which is enough said. You burrow 2-3 mines around the map in any phase of the game and just go back to macro. Then suddenly you hear Boom! Headshot! and your opponent has 10-15 supply less units without you doing any action to cause it. Show nested quote +On May 18 2020 05:32 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Players can also show their skills in ways that don't involve instantly losing the game to a moment of inattention. SC2 has long had a problem with game-ending moments, and widow mines are part of it. Mind you they (and disruptors) are probably among the more benign game-ending things that the game has had, but that doesn't make them a 'great' unit. It's far from the worst unit though. Yeah, exactly this, although I still think WM is by far the worst unit in SC2. Disruptor is a "good" second place.
The most fun SC2 games to watch are chaotic. At lower levels, players can adapt and make static defenses against mines until their control/awareness is good enough to cut them. Again, a lot of the complaints seem to be from ladder heroes who find mines frustrating - which is exactly the point I'm making.
Mines ARE frustrating. But so are banelings, creep, storms, disruptors, doom-drops and pretty much everything about SC2.
But Widow Mines are the kind of frustrating that separates the wheat from the chaff.
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On May 18 2020 09:37 Pentarp wrote:Ravens got the same treatment. They were turned into a support unit. As a result, Terrans lost tremendous late-game power. Buffing banshees will be the same as buffing hellbats - a flat increase to power level. And I cannot imagine how banshees can be changed to be relevant vs ling/bane/muta.
??? you don't seem to follow the meta very closely. almost everyone, including terrans, agrees that lategame mass ravens were terrible for the game and totally broken if the game ever reached that phase. new ravens are critical in TvT and also key in TvP in certain games. it's a clear improvement
banshees are a harassment opener in TvZ. they are already used against zerg by top terrans, and they hit long before mutas are built. so i don't know what you mean by "banshees being relevant against ling bane muta". mines are good against LBM but terran doesn't require mines to fight that composition anymore, maybe you're thinking of HotS TvZ where it was just bio mine medivac in every game. and i don't think you understand what i mean about mines - i'm not saying take away damage, i'm saying give them less damage but add something different as well
buffing banshees is simply an idea for alternative harassment against protoss. i didn't say anything specific, and maybe there's a better solution. but the fact is mines are a bad interaction because they're random and not fun. i don't understand people like you who respond to vague ideas with "no, that would never work." changes have to be tested before even pro players know exactly what will happen. pros have been wrong about balance changes before, so how can you claim you know exactly what would happen based on a vague idea?
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On May 18 2020 10:07 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2020 09:37 Pentarp wrote:Ravens got the same treatment. They were turned into a support unit. As a result, Terrans lost tremendous late-game power. Buffing banshees will be the same as buffing hellbats - a flat increase to power level. And I cannot imagine how banshees can be changed to be relevant vs ling/bane/muta. ??? you don't seem to follow the meta very closely. almost everyone, including terrans, agrees that lategame mass ravens were terrible for the game and totally broken if the game ever reached that phase. new ravens are critical in TvT and also key in TvP in certain games. it's a clear improvement banshees are a harassment opener in TvZ. they are already used against zerg by top terrans, and they hit long before mutas are built. so i don't know what you mean by "banshees being relevant against ling bane muta". mines are good against LBM but terran doesn't require mines to fight that composition anymore, maybe you're thinking of HotS TvZ where it was just bio mine medivac in every game. and i don't think you understand what i mean about mines - i'm not saying take away damage, i'm saying give them less damage but add something different as well buffing banshees is simply an idea for alternative harassment against protoss. i didn't say anything specific, and maybe there's a better solution. but the fact is mines are a bad interaction because they're random and not fun. i don't understand people like you who respond to vague ideas with "no, that would never work." changes have to be tested before even pro players know exactly what will happen. pros have been wrong about balance changes before, so how can you claim you know exactly what would happen based on a vague idea?
I agree that mass raven was not good for the game. But nerfing the raven without any other changes neutered late-game Terran for a very long time.
Mines are still relevant vs LBM, especially before transitioning into libs and ghosts. And as to why I did not understand your comment about changes to the mine, it's because you didn't make it very clear. Your initial comment was vague, but then complain about my vague reply. Damage is also very important. EMP is not as feared as storms because they lack the killing power.
Thing is, mines are not completely random. Top-level Terrans use stop-fire, unburrow-reburrow, or target-fire to control how the mines land. Top-level non-Terrans split, bait-out shots, drag shots, etc. Of course there is randomness to it, especially at lower skill level. But it is not a complete roll of the dice.
As for the banshees vs LBM; it's an opener and not a composition. Banshees get traded out by the time mutas hit the field because mutas make them irrelevant.
If mines are causing so much problem at lower levels, that won't change because Blizzard wants to make it easier for professional Terrans to access the full potential of mines. At lower levels, it is easy to have the extra resources and time to research the upgrade and make your life hell regardless.
I sense that the frustration around requiring proper map-control, unit-control and detection is the reason why there is so much hate for the Widow Mines.
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If terrans didn't had WM zealots and ling/bane would be unbeatable for bio.
If you guys think the game would be better without it come with a better solution, otherwise bio would be unviable in TvZ and TvP as tanks just don't cut it against those units.
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Could SC2 still be considered as a RTS even if the game couldn t include this kind of very basic unit ?
I don t think so.. Infantry, Tanks, Mines are the basic of wargame, there s no question regarding their role in a Terran army. This thread is more like coffe discussion than a true questionning, it s mainly a way to discuss without any deep interest on the game,...
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Let me first say that I have always hated the high templar. As a Protoss scrub on ladder, I never could control the storms to do as I wanted. When even Stats could not control the mines well, what hope is there for the rest of us?
Well, that's what makes the storms great. In the right hands, storms can do terrible, terrible damage. In the wrong hands, it'll still do terrible, terrible (friendly-fire) damage. And for most of us, it will be somewhere in between.
Storms differentiate the best from the very good Protoss.
This is also true for the opposing side. Storms can do very little damage if handled correctly. Even without detection, the top players are able to forsee where the storms hits - and protect their mutalisks or marines. Even when the storms do fire, their splits are on point - well defended mine drops usually kill only 1 or 2 sacrificial SCVs. Lings can kite storms hits into the enemy units.
Storms, again, differentiate the best from the very good non-Protesses.
So, why the hate? Why are mines so universally condemned by both Protesses as unreliable, friendly-fire monsters and non-Protesses as game-ending eviscerator of mineral lines?
Precisely because it raises the skill-ceiling for all parties involved. And our egos can't handle it. So my dear fellow whiners, let's take a hard look at the hate for storms and reflect on how it can influence the health of the scene.
Here's my humble opinion. Anything that creates more opportunities for the top-most players to shine; anything that makes us plebs wide-eyed in admiration for feats of skill and talent; anything that makes us groan or cheer in a roller-coaster of emotions - deserves love (even if its begrudging) , not hate.
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United Kingdom20278 Posts
On May 18 2020 12:27 Lexender wrote:
If terrans didn't had WM zealots and ling/bane would be unbeatable for bio.
If you guys think the game would be better without it come with a better solution, otherwise bio would be unviable in TvZ and TvP as tanks just don't cut it against those units.
Bio-based builds had loads of windows of being straight up overpowered before the widow mine in its current form (or any form at all) were even in the game. That's a basic numbers problem.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 18 2020 05:26 Pentarp wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Let me first say that I have always hated the widow mine. As a Terran scrub on ladder, I never could control the mines to do as I wanted. When even Bomber could not control the mines well, what hope is there for the rest of us?
Well, that's what makes the mines great. In the right hands, mines can do terrible, terrible damage. In the wrong hands, it'll still do terrible, terrible (friendly-fire) damage. And for most of us, it will be somewhere in between.
Widow mines differentiate the best from the very good Terrans.
This is also true for the opposing side. Mines can do very little damage if handled correctly. Even without detection, the top players are able to spot the slight animation before a mine fires - and protect their mutalisks or oracles. Even when the mines do fire, their splits are on point - well defended mine drops usually kill only 1 or 2 sacrificial probes. Lings can drag mine hits into the enemy lines.
Widow mines, again, differentiate the best from the very good non-Terrans.
So, why the hate? Why are mines so universally condemned by both Terrans as unreliable, friendly-fire monsters and non-Terrans as game-ending eviscerator of mineral lines?
Precisely because it raises the skill-ceiling for all parties involved. And our egos can't handle it. So my dear fellow whiners, let's take a hard look at the hate for widow mines and reflect on how it can influence the health of the scene. Here's my humble opinion. Anything that creates more opportunities for the top-most players to shine; anything that makes us plebs wide-eyed in admiration for feats of skill and talent; anything that makes us groan or cheer in a roller-coaster of emotions - deserves love (even if its begrudging) , not hate.
And here I was thinking the game's to be played and not just watched.
That's the issue if you balance things around the top. The game's balanced on the top level, while there are issues everywhere else. The best example is bl/infestor from WoL and the old swarmhost. While these things were balanced on the top level(I know BL/infestor was not balanced per se, but people were starting to figure things out - e.g. MC was using MS with some carriers, templars and colossi and it was working even without the toilet), it was pretty broken for the common folk.
the old SH is the best example because it requires proper response from the player, yet even at dia1 all it took was to burrow them and place the waypoint. Quick reminder - they were balanced at the top level! This isn't like BL/infestor, they were players winning consistently against them(the best example would be herO).
Long story short - this game is complicated for the casual viewer and generally the viewer needs to be a player of the game to make at least some connection as the casters expect a basic understanding of the game. If we lose p[layers because the top is balanced and fuck ordinary players, then we lose viewers. Why should they watch when they dont play the game? Tjhey will watch the game they play more.
Should Blizzard balance based on low tier players? NO!
Should Blizzard change units which are abused in the lower tiers even when they are balanced on the top? I say yes.
Is widow mine this kind of unit? I say yes. (is it balanced at the top? yes)
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Yes, the game would be so much better if it was just hellions vs zerglings vs zealots !
It's not because it can be frustrating to lose to WM (I think it happens a lot less than against banes/storm/disru) that you have to erase it from the game. It's the only choice of mobility for bio from the factory, I don't get why you would want to impoverish the diversity of the game because some players can't deal with this.
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Would it be possible to tweak the numbers in a way, that you had to do extra comitment to actually oneshot an entire mineral line with mines? Like making them less effevtive against workers until whatever is done or something around those lines. So that they are as effective as they are now in straight up fights but have less game ending potential in harassment.
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WMs are great. Bio+mine vs ling, bane, muta produce the best games.
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I would prefer if they take away auto-fire for sentinel missiles, and require the player to fire it manually. This would allow high level Terran players to choose the most effective time to fire and avoid friendly fire, and it would prevent low level players from having super efficient hard counters to run-bys for zero apm.
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On May 18 2020 19:51 dbRic1203 wrote:
Would it be possible to tweak the numbers in a way, that you had to do extra comitment to actually oneshot an entire mineral line with mines? Like making them less effevtive against workers until whatever is done or something around those lines. So that they are as effective as they are now in straight up fights but have less game ending potential in harassment.
During the late game, there are obs all over the map, as well as overlords, or if you want to push the vice, sensor tower, if you lose your entire mineral line on a single drop, then it's almost deserved, and since there's also a lot of static defense the wm die almost all the time, and the same goes for the medivac. It's absolutely no easier, or more devastating, than moving a few lings/banes or warping a few zealot infinitely. Everything is a pain in during the late game, and that's why SC2 is an excellent esport game, because everyone experiences how hard it is to deal with this kind of harass so we can appreciate pro's plays even more, whether they're zerg, protoss or terran.
On May 18 2020 22:34 DaveyJosiah wrote:
I would prefer if they take away auto-fire for sentinel missiles, and require the player to fire it manually. This would allow high level Terran players to choose the most effective time to fire and avoid friendly fire, and it would prevent low level players from having super efficient hard counters to run-bys for zero apm.
It's hilarious, it's proof that a lot of people who don't play this video game want to follow the movement and cry over everything that happens in the twitch chat, trying to add their stone to the edifice. Imagine how difficult it would be ? It's ridiculous.
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Canada8988 Posts
On May 18 2020 22:34 DaveyJosiah wrote:
I would prefer if they take away auto-fire for sentinel missiles, and require the player to fire it manually. This would allow high level Terran players to choose the most effective time to fire and avoid friendly fire, and it would prevent low level players from having super efficient hard counters to run-bys for zero apm.
That's ludicrous, might as well make it so baneling can't a-move and need to be manually detonated every time.
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Imagine the skill ceiling ? 10 banelings control groups.
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On May 18 2020 17:01 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2020 12:27 Lexender wrote:
If terrans didn't had WM zealots and ling/bane would be unbeatable for bio.
If you guys think the game would be better without it come with a better solution, otherwise bio would be unviable in TvZ and TvP as tanks just don't cut it against those units. Bio-based builds had loads of windows of being straight up overpowered before the widow mine in its current form (or any form at all) were even in the game. That's a basic numbers problem.
Its not, not only bio has never been able to fight ling/bane on its own, several iterations of the game have changed significatively (tech is faster, zealots buffed, banes buffed).
Also let me remind you guys that bio being too strong on its own was one of the biggest complain come LotV.
You can't simply buff bio, you'll need to give a replacement. I can see the WM being an unwanted unit but bio needs some form of mobile and flexible splash to exist in current LotV meta.
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I like Mines. They are exciting and fun to play around with.
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United Kingdom20278 Posts
Poll: How do you feel about Widow Mines?(Vote): Love
(Vote): Neutral
(Vote): Hate
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It's true, though I think this can be said even more for the Disruptor and I'm not sure you'd agree, but you can let me know 
Gumiho said long ago that removing invis on Widow Mines removes the identity of the unit and I absolutely agree. So from a non-Terran perspective on the Widow Mine I think they should be always invisible, my problem with it is that it's a Protoss hater unit and that it's mostly used to slay workers, this is a MINE. I have some ideas for a rework for the mine, but the most essential and important thing for me is that the splash shouldn't deal 40 damage to workers and it should be an invisible units when it burrows ALWAYS.
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Widow mines are great when I'm only an audience, it creates great games where we can see how well the terrans are and how well the opposing races are against. As a player, it doesn't feel that well, just like storms, banes, disruptors are to basically everyone who ain't skilled enough. But I won't say I hate it because I'm a noob plat, I only hate myself because I didn't practice enough.
I think it's stupid to hate something that can be dealt with practice, as there are people showing how to deal with it perfectly already. What should be hate is things that are (almost) impossible to dealt with unless balanced.
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For a lower league (diamond) random player, wms is the only thing that makes tvz and tvp bio play possible. Storms and banelings are otherwise just too powerful. It is much easier to use splash than it is to avoid it.
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On May 18 2020 06:21 ilax30 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2020 05:51 naughtDE wrote:
You are funny Pentarp. Next tell us why there is nothing wrong with swarmhosts please. Wait what you are actually comparing a unit that can be very cost effective but can also do extreme friendly fire damage to a swarmhost that 99% of the times gets value and is far far more reliable?
No, the category I put widowmines, swarmhosts and disruptors in is: most frustrating designs in sc2. All three should be removed or redesigned. As to Pentarp's point, I admire good reaper control and banshee control. I am not impressed with widowmines.
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That's ludicrous, might as well make it so baneling can't a-move and need to be manually detonated every time.
Except the widow mine deals far more damage than the baneling, is stealthed, and reloads. There's no other unit in the game that can be placed, ignored, and just wipe enemy runbys with zero apm.
It's hilarious, it's proof that a lot of people who don't play this video game want to follow the movement and cry over everything that happens in the twitch chat, trying to add their stone to the edifice. Imagine how difficult it would be ? It's ridiculous.
It would be about as difficult as detonating a burrowed baneling when units walk over it, except the widow mine has greater range.
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I really hope you're kidding, this is a 2 post account after all.
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starcraft 2 has had this rather odd history of being watched since its release. the majority of people, even here, watch rather than play. sometimes there is this understanding of the game from a deep interest in it from a player or a set of players who have played the game with less practice than necessary to deal with the stronger tools of a race.
people have been afraid of mutalisks because they often don't prepare for them.
people are afraid of storm and yet they let the protoss expand and play in large engagements only. in other words, they are afraid of playing with ghosts because they need to break muscle memory and use more than the one hotkey and build a different production building.
at some point it really is about ego and finding the game unfun or too difficult. more than anything, the game is just a bit too fast.
the parallel i'm drawing is that we've always adapted as players, and complaining as the general playerbase has never amounted to anything... until now. they're speaking to pros and adjusting numbers to feedback.
because we are always watching, the puzzle-solving aspect of the game is cleanly removed by paying attention and emulating. if we were forced to puzzle solve ourselves at times, we would come up with our own unique solutions.
there is really no need to place positive reinforcement with negative opinions about a design or a unit like the widowmine. if you have one bad experience, you practice to never lose to it ever again. the game is made harder for you as an individual and so you improve in beating it and at the very least it becomes easier to you.
that is the basic premise in adapting over complaining. the onus is basically on you, because once again, complaints like these change just about nothing.
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Canada8988 Posts
On May 19 2020 08:57 DaveyJosiah wrote:Show nested quote +That's ludicrous, might as well make it so baneling can't a-move and need to be manually detonated every time. Except the widow mine deals far more damage than the baneling, is stealthed, and reloads. There's no other unit in the game that can be placed, ignored, and just wipe enemy runbys with zero apm. Show nested quote +
It's hilarious, it's proof that a lot of people who don't play this video game want to follow the movement and cry over everything that happens in the twitch chat, trying to add their stone to the edifice. Imagine how difficult it would be ? It's ridiculous.
It would be about as difficult as detonating a burrowed baneling when units walk over it, except the widow mine has greater range.
Yes and I can count on my two hands the number of time I have seen burrow banes do anything in the last 8 years of professional sc2.
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On May 19 2020 09:46 nanaoei wrote:
starcraft 2 has had this rather odd history of being watched since its release. the majority of people, even here, watch rather than play. sometimes there is this understanding of the game from a deep interest in it from a player or a set of players who have played the game with less practice than necessary to deal with the stronger tools of a race.
people have been afraid of mutalisks because they often don't prepare for them.
people are afraid of storm and yet they let the protoss expand and play in large engagements only. in other words, they are afraid of playing with ghosts because they need to break muscle memory and use more than the one hotkey and build a different production building.
at some point it really is about ego and finding the game unfun or too difficult. more than anything, the game is just a bit too fast.
the parallel i'm drawing is that we've always adapted as players, and complaining as the general playerbase has never amounted to anything... until now. they're speaking to pros and adjusting numbers to feedback.
because we are always watching, the puzzle-solving aspect of the game is cleanly removed by paying attention and emulating. if we were forced to puzzle solve ourselves at times, we would come up with our own unique solutions.
there is really no need to place positive reinforcement with negative opinions about a design or a unit like the widowmine. if you have one bad experience, you practice to never lose to it ever again. the game is made harder for you as an individual and so you improve in beating it and at the very least it becomes easier to you.
that is the basic premise in adapting over complaining. the onus is basically on you, because once again, complaints like these change just about nothing.
Think about Sc2's history though. I personally quit WoL 2 Weeks in, when an instant fungle hit my marines. I was playing random at that time, but I thought, hey lets wait until they fix this. This is obviously terrible, terrible design. They didn't, broodlord infestor ensued. I didn't buy Hots, I saw the swarmhost in one of the trailers and thought, hey lets wait until they fix this. Epic 4hour games about as exiting as paint drying ensued, Sc2's playerbase basically died. Because while hilarious to watch, unless being paid to play, there was no fun in that, then there came tankivacs... Eventually Sc2 got a new design team and non of the current units in game make me not play the game, but I feel sc2 could still be improved drastically. Widowmines are not interesting, fair or fun, they aren't as bad as the things mentioned above, a plea in their defense though might be a first sign of stockholm syndrome.
So Sc2's history teaches us, complaints like these can change things. Again though, I agree with you, that the situation with widowmines is not comparable to Sc2's past, since counterplay does exist and so part of the responsibility is on the players, it just isn't fun.
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I like the mines because it forces micro from the opponent.
It makes it rewarding to play against and it gives very fun and dynamic games to watch while siege tank style is way slower.
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On May 18 2020 05:32 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Players can also show their skills in ways that don't involve instantly losing the game to a moment of inattention. SC2 has long had a problem with game-ending moments, and widow mines are part of it. Mind you they (and disruptors) are probably among the more benign game-ending things that the game has had, but that doesn't make them a 'great' unit. It's far from the worst unit though.
Banelings vs Bio is a potentially game ending interaction as well and one I wouldn't want to miss. Same is true for Storm vs Bio. The only difference is the time of the interaction but I don't think that is necessarily relevant.
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On May 19 2020 19:09 Aunvilgodess wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2020 05:32 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Players can also show their skills in ways that don't involve instantly losing the game to a moment of inattention. SC2 has long had a problem with game-ending moments, and widow mines are part of it. Mind you they (and disruptors) are probably among the more benign game-ending things that the game has had, but that doesn't make them a 'great' unit. It's far from the worst unit though. Banelings vs Bio is a potentially game ending interaction as well and one I wouldn't want to miss. Same is true for Storm vs Bio. The only difference is the time of the interaction but I don't think that is necessarily relevant.
Balenings don't explode on their own. They need a command from the owner.
This is the issue with mine. Creating randomness (because of their so high skill need that no pro-player can fully use them) in a game where randomness has no place.
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Well, it's harder to micro WM than banes, you can't just aclick them with the army, you have to split them, select them and burrow them.
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Yes and I can count on my two hands the number of time I have seen burrow banes do anything in the last 8 years of professional sc2.
This isn't because players are too slow to press a single button, it's because there is always detection present to clear creep. I'm honestly a bit surprised at the reaction that it would be too difficult to select the units and press a single button in response to a runby or drop. The nerf just requires multitasking when harass is happening at the same time as an engagement, which is how every single other unit in the game works.
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Tank shots should be manual as well, so I think you've got a great idea. 
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On May 20 2020 23:00 DaveyJosiah wrote:Show nested quote +Yes and I can count on my two hands the number of time I have seen burrow banes do anything in the last 8 years of professional sc2. This isn't because players are too slow to press a single button, it's because there is always detection present to clear creep. I'm honestly a bit surprised at the reaction that it would be too difficult to select the units and press a single button in response to a runby or drop. The nerf just requires multitasking when harass is happening at the same time as an engagement, which is how every single other unit in the game works.
If I could grab all my burrowed WMs and a click on them then yeah, but considering burrowed they wont move and A moving means they would attack the nearest unit it comes in range.
Or maybe people should stop asking for this nonse.
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EPT
